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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:03 AM
Original message
Dean Will Endure
DEAN WILL ENDURE:
. The Daily Dish . Andrew Sullivan
Most of the day, I thought that Edwards was going to be the un-Kerry from now on. Dean was too damaged after losing both Iowa and New Hampshire. But Edwards' disappointing fourth place showing - behind the nutcase Clark - after such a big win in Iowa has to make his candidacy more suspect. Dean did a little worse than the exit polls suggested. But his concession speech was easily the best of the night. It was authentic, uplifting, and red meat to the Democrats. It actually rang true to me as Dean's real view of the world. It isn't one I entirely share, to say the least, but it is genuine, represents a lot of people in this country and deserves a hearing. He seemed more affable than recently as well. He smiled more. He spoke more calmly but not ineffectively. He's real. Kerry is so fake, in contrast, I cannot believe that Democratic primary voters will continue to support him in such numbers. Dean gave arguments. Kerry spoke in packaged Shrumisms. Dean has a vision. Kerry has ambition. If I were a Democrat, I'd vote for Dean over Kerry in a heartbeat. To my mind, this is a battle between the Democratic party's soul and its fear. The exit polls showed how Kerry won by seeming more electable - thus trashing an old golden rule of American politics. But the more you see of Kerry the less appealing he is. I'm not sure he really is less electable than the dreary Kerry. Maybe Dean needed this early drubbing to make him more tolerable as a candidate. Maybe it's too late and Kerry is way too far ahead to be caught. I don't know. All I know is that what I saw in Dean's speech - and the extraordinary crowd that accompanied it - was more authentic than anything I have ever seen Kerry say or do. That must count for something.
http://andrewsullivan.com /

** RW Source ** Even a broken clock is right twice a day, as they say. I happen to agree with some of these statements. Is the message flawed or just the *messenger* in this case?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think he is absolutely right
and it makes me sick to agree with him even once.

The right will kill Kerry over so many issues. Shit, they will kill over the botox treatments and make-up alone.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Did you study the complete exit polling data? Sully obviously didn't.
Check it out for yourself:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3762821 /

Kerry won in virually every demographic group on virtually every single issue.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Don't try to cloud things with your fancy "data" and "facts"...
Just let people keep saying that Kerry can't appeal to anyone. Under 30 voters preferred Dean by 1 point. Union households preferred Kerry. The only area in which Dean won handily was amongst self identified Liberals. Which is strange because we keep being told that he's not a liberal.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. Yeah
Because New Hampshire is such a microcosm of the nation right?
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pnziii Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. All that says is
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 11:18 AM by pnziii
you can fool the masses.
Bush gets the same results. Most people get their info on candidate from a 30 second spot. It's a fact that most young people get their news from Leno (saw the study a year ago)
People like to go with a "perceived" winner.

When TB won the SB All of a sudden there were life long TB fans coming out of the closet.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Dean's the speech writer
It amazes me that Dean speaks and the other candidates repeat it like it was their idea. Electable? We are once again being the party that plays it safe. Who brought us to this "party", Dean got the ball rolling and got the democrats, who never helped one Democratic congressional candidate win, off their boring stance of "me too". Most of us were furious in 2002 for our weak stand in the elections. Dean lets his ideas roll of his tongue while the others parce out their "Dean ideas". There is no doubt in my mind that Dean could take on Bush who has never had an original idea in his life. I can't see Dean doing what Gore did during the debates and falling into the Bush trap. Don't let the media form our opinion. They sat in front of the TV cameras and gave their blather for hours. It didn't hit me until this morning how much they acted like they knew what they were talking about and lordy, they don't know as much as most of us out here in the real country. I can't believe we as a country are falling into the comfy zone again!
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Abigail147 Donating Member (117 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Listen to this person.
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 11:47 AM by Abigail147
Kerry will be written-off as just another Massachusetts liberal. Listen to the candidates talk. Pick a subject, any subject, and Dean can discuss the merits of both sides. Kerry speaks in terms of what is the old conventional wisdom of an out of touch Democratic leadership and he speaks endlessly--zzzz.. Dean speaks to the times that are here and now. And our fearless good old boys know this. Their problem with him is they cannot control him because he does not owe a lot of favors. Defeat the media and the same old, same old approaches that got us here.
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Anwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. "..this is a battle between the Democratic party's soul and its fear..."
I couldn't agree more!!! This is a RW source? Scary! :o

But it's true. Many people said they liked Dean better but voted for Kerry simply because he has been dubbed "electable."

Sad.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. That Is "Sad!"
WE've got to turn this thing around!

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Anwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Yes and I think we will!
I have faith that most of the people will see through the B.S. spewed by talking heads and their precious polls. God, I hope so anyway.

How can Dean turn this thing around and give his message to the American people without the media distorting his words and character? It's something to think about.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. We have to convince
average *Americans* that change is possible. So many don't have enough faith in the Will of the People. They still think we have to go along with the status quo. We have been marketed the theme that we have no influence. This must change. It is changing.
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Anwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. SO true.
I didn't believe I had any power or influence until the Dean campaign came along.
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pnziii Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. Kerry didn't have a message
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 11:13 AM by pnziii
until he started using Dean's ideas. Kerry is now just Dean with a war record.

He didn't do anything until an old war buddy told the story.

Is that what people are voting on? I think so. They here about a heroic moment and think now Kerry is Presidential. They didn't think that until the story came out. Kerry can't keep running on something that happened 35 years ago. What has he done in the last 5 years that has been so great? Voted for IWR? Voted for the Patriot Act?
Can someone tell me what he has done lately?
Dean has done more to improve the lives of Vermonters in the last 5 years than Kerry has done in the last 10 years.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Try this on, pal.
Kerry was ostracized by most of Washington for his dogged investigations. I can't believe so many on the left no nothing about who Kerry really is.

>>>>>
Kerry and the Iran-Contra Fight
Before the conventional wisdom sets in on Kerry as some kind of careful pol with no bite, folks should reach back and remember his role back in the 1980s in challenging the whole Reagan administration ties to money laundering, drug running and the Contras down in Central America. Kerry was willing for years to face down the CIA, the Justice Department and narco-terrorists in pursuing the dirty dealings of the Reagan-North network of rightwing drug-linked paramilitaries.

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/000945.shtml
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pnziii Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. What you again?
I said what has he done in the last 5 years. Yes, he stood up to the bad Republican president 20 years ago, but he didn't do it 2 years ago.

He voted for the IWR and for the Patriot Act (that was just ruled parts are unconstitutional)

What has he done lately?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. What makes you think Dean wouldn't have?
Dean SUGGESTED a Patriot Act a few days after 9-11. He said in July 2002 that he "tended to agree" with Bush on TIPS, fer chrissakes.

Dean also supported a resolution for unilateral use of force in the Biden-Lugar bill version of the IWR. Yet you give him a pass.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Kerry and a few others
I don't believe he has ever been a guiding light for the democrats while in congress.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. He was the first to offer gayfriendly legislation in the Senate in 1985.
He also advocated for gays to serve openly in the military. NOONE was taking up the cause for gays at the time.

He also worked on the Kyoto Protocol for 10 years.

Read his record for yourself. It's stellar.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Try this blm
Kerry has never authored a piece of legislation in Congress in the 18 years he's been in Congress. That's not leadership. That's being a herd member.

Kerry spoke out against the Bush Medicare Rx Drug Bill, and even skipped out of Iowa under the claim to "be responsible" and attend the bill's proceedings in DC, but when push came to shove, he DID NOT VOTE on it. Why? Was he afraid to challenge AARP?

Both Kerry's Iraq war votes were wrong. For all his foreign policy experience, he can't get the major votes, especially war votes, correct.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. Kerry is using the "Fear" card and duping Americans in the process.
He's trying to say only he can beat Smirky because he is the only one who is a veteran of Vietnam (leaving Clark out because he is low in numbers, but this applies to him too). I'm tired of being manipulated with the bullshit charge that Democrats are weak on national security and only Repukes would have gone into Afghanistan, not Gore. BULLSHIT AGAIN! Maybe this is why I'm an Independent, Democrats are running like scared little children to Lt. Kerry and Gen. Clark in order to play the macho game of who is most warrior like.

All any Dem has to do is point out the failures in the Smirk administration that allowed 9/11 to happen, covered it up, dropped the ball on Bin Laden and started an illegal war based on lies! Why does it take a damn Vietnam vet to do that?

Sheesh.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. So true. Unfortunately, fearmongering works
And people are scared of another 4 years of Bush -- so "I'm more electible," combined with co-opting (downright stealing) Dean's message worked. Of course, don't forget there were a few dirty tricks thrown in for good measure.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. What does it count for? Nothing.
The die has been cast and the people have chosen the method in which they want to take on Bush. Dean's grassroots efforts need to be turned to other purposes after the election. He has lightening in a bottle and needs to do something significant with it. If Dean can't be elected President, then he needs to become a public campaigner for his causes.

I dread the day when Dean is no longer driving the debate.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Good last line LX.
If Dean has to drop out in March, just think about the next seven months...listening to Kerry :boring: tell us how he steered a boat down the Me Cong Delta (or whatever) and saying "bring it on" in the voice of a depressed, melancholic tax accountant.

Wow, go Kerry. rah rah. not.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. "I dread the day when Dean is no longer driving the debate"
Oh so true LuminousX!
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Anwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. That will be a sad, sad day.
If it happens.

Am I foolish to think that this is far from over? That seems to be the general consensus around here today. For crying out loud, only two small states have voted. A LOT can happen before the next primary, as we all know.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. If us Dean supporters stick with our candidate
he can drive the debate into the convention and beyond. We can become a powerful block in the Dem Party to challenge the special interests and the good ol' boys network.

I'm sticking with Dean for as long as he wants to be our leader. None of the other guys give me hope.
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Anwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I'm not going anywhere.
Dean all the way! :)
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
18. Dean articulates a position that many Americans have been seeking.
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 11:38 AM by MissMarple
At least in my opinion. The far left and the far right are becoming increasingly moribund. The old paradigm that Gephardt and Kerry have been a part of is falling apart. Whether it is liberal conservative or conservative liberal, the center can combine the best of both visions. The conservative far right's adoration of unregulated capitalism is ruining the country as much as a runaway permissive welfare state could. We need a balance and we need some common sense, and sooner rather than later.

All of the potential candidates have contributed valuable ideas and perspectives to the small "d" democratic debate. I hope they can continue to do so. If we don't take care of working class America and promote a responsible expression of capitalism, we all know there will be dark days ahead.

And on edit: I don't think the grassroots movement gathering around Dean and Kucinich, and Sharpton and Mosely-Braun will disappear. Its' time is coming.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. I agree
with everything ecept that Clark comment. I always liked the mellow Dean. I always felt that nutcase Dean was bad. That's exactly what this is saying and I agree completely. Dean has th ebetter message. He is just not a good messenger sometimes.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. It takes a lot of positive images to overcome
even one negative image, much less 673. I don't think Clark is a nutcase either. I disagree with that characterization.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. I hate to agree with sully--but he is dead right on this one...
Kerry is the least exciting front-runner in history.

His whole campaign is built on the phantom of promised "Electability,"

But you need to actually stand for something to really win elections.

Dean is the real thing, which why they hate and/or fear him.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. Wow. AS actually said something that was 100% accurate! (nt)
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Casablanca Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. Sullivan is one endorsement Dean doesn't need.
Like Hitchens, I don't believe the guy even when he's right.
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