Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Deleted message

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:01 AM
Original message
Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. Emotional bias? How dare you say that...
My candidate is quite simply the most kick ass human being ever and he stirs within me a passion previously unknown to any person in the entire history of humankind, if not even before that. He is the answer to all of life's problems, even the ones we don't know we have yet. The mere thought of him makes me weep with joy and almost sick to my stomach from the passion running through my veins.

How can you possibly say this is based on emotional bias rather than cold hard facts?!?!?!?
















Kidding.....I'm kidding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Hello, is there anybody home?
What the GOP machine did to John McCain should be a lesson to every single DU poster. They will paint Kerry with such a broad brush that none of us will recogonize him.

Who gives a crap about principled voting this and principled voting that. It is not enough to snare the voters who are looking for a reason to not give *** 4 more years.

With the GOP, elections are war, remember Fla?

MOST VOTERS AREN'T EVEN SURE THIS IS A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR, LET ALONE BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KERRY AND ****.

DON'T YOU PEOPLE GET IT??? You are so mired down in the minutia and details of principled stances and voting that you can not see the big picture.

Kerry's voting record these past 3 years could be called pale blue in support of the administration vs. their color of sky blue.

Same color, different hues, not much difference. That is how Kerry will be painted. Get it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. You might ask that question of yourself
You've totally missed the point when you speak of how the GOP will attack Kerry. The point of the initial post is not that we should ignore the coming attacks, but that we should not believe and repeat their lies, like how Kerry is a "Washington insider" and a part of "The Establishment"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. I saw this posted at another site about Kerry, which I thought was true
guess Karl Rove and Bush will stress Kerry's Mental Disability

Going to claim Kerry suffers from some Post Traumatic Vietnam Syndrome, caused by him serving in
combat...getting wounded....saving guys lives...and the like....

and this ain't no joke....

Rove will stress that Bush's experience in the Whorehouses of Juarez and flying over Brownsville
protecting Texas from the Free Mexican Airforce is actually better service to the County because
Bush did not have to endure any painful exercises to his ego, save maybe a bad case of the
clap....and of course Rove points out Cheney is really free and clear of any deadly maladies caused
any type of Military or other Service

http://www.politicalhardball.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=71663&mesg_id=71663&page=

It's more important to key on the anticipated GOP attack dogs than spend too much energy on internecine rivalries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Would not be surprised if Kerry did have such mental problems...
he certainly looks severely depressed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kerryistheanswer Donating Member (249 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Sorry dude - I think your candidate is the depressed one
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. And you know for sure who the posters candidate is because of an avatar?
I don't even know for sure if the poster is a Democrat.

Don

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. oh please...no need to go after his mental status
There is no need to go after Kerry regarding his mental status.

His IWR vote is easy pickings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. You're right...
Repubs would do exactly that. 'Bush is better because his military service (and he's not a deserter so stop saying that) wasn't as stressful as Kerry's...(or Clark... Or McCain... Or Eisenhower... Or T. Roosevelt... or Grant... Or Lincoln... Or Washington...)'

I shall be violently ill when I hear Repubs say it, hopefully on thier laps.

And I shall merely be saddened when I hear his fellow Democrats say it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rebel_with_a_cause Donating Member (933 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Fellow dems wouldn't stoop so low as Rove
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 09:59 AM by Rebel_with_a_cause
Not even close. Rove is gutter slime.

The issue Dean has taken Kerry to task on is his vote for a preemptive attack against Iraq. Fair game. I had dismissed Kerry out of hand as pres. based on that vote, but as the primary results fall where they may, should Kerry rise to the top, I'd be the first one to donate money to him.

If some fundie Bible thwacker wants to believe Rove's spin, no matter how bizarre, probably nothing's gonna change his/her mind. We'll just have to hope there are more sane folks in the country than slack-jawed yokels come election time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. I agree. Yesterday someone posted that Kerry is not for
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 09:17 AM by HopeLives
the working people when he has supported firefighters for years, has stood with nurses and custodial workers who went on strike and provided support to the Harvard Living Wage campaign.

Those are just a few obvious cases of Kerry caring about the working class.

It's so superficial to believe that because someone has money that person cannot care about people who are less well off than themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. Kerry consistency
* Opposed Gulf War I

* Voted for the IWR and supported the invasion


He's consistent in that he keeps making the wrong choices on war. This is not a horse we should hitch our progressive wagon to.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. voting for the wrong choice in a war isn't worse than starting a wrong war
Which is what Kerry will say and he'll be right. Don't forget the imbecile he's running against. I trust Kerry's instincts 1000x more than I trust Bush's - and I doubt most Americans are going to disagree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. You want Dean, who supported ILLEGAL wars in Central America?
I think you have no idea about John Kerry's actual work in Washington.

>>>>>>>>
Kerry and the Iran-Contra Fight
Before the conventional wisdom sets in on Kerry as some kind of careful pol with no bite, folks should reach back and remember his role back in the 1980s in challenging the whole Reagan administration ties to money laundering, drug running and the Contras down in Central America. Kerry was willing for years to face down the CIA, the Justice Department and narco-terrorists in pursuing the dirty dealings of the Reagan-North network of rightwing drug-linked paramilitaries.

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/archives/000945.shtml
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. I agree with Kerry's opposition to the Gulf War
Babies thrown from incubaters my ass. The Gulf war is what got all this shit going that eventually led up to 9/11 when we left US soldiers all over the Gulf after attacking a Muslim country. Kerry was right to vote no. Gore and Lieberman were wrong to vote for it.

Don

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. He was right about Gulf War I
and wrong on IRW, in my estimation. Nor do I buy the explanations. I am pretty sure that he voted for the savage welfare "reform" also, correct me if I am wrong, I would be very glad to be corrected.

But he is still the best of the major candidates in my book, on his record. I know it doesn't resonate with the younger folks, but his being an anti-war vet and his stand on Iraq/Contra still carry great weight with some of us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. No, I don't care what the CIA said
Iraq almost all the responsibility in invading Kuwait.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Heh...
Modify your comment to this...

"post something about uninformed anti-(blank) remarks, and lo and behold...I get another round of them!"

And it applies to every candidate.

(I'm not saying you are wrong, merely expanding on your statement)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yes, it is kind of strange
to me that my multi-millionaire loses points to someone else's multi-millionaire before the record, issues, and/or plans for America are even considered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
globalcitizen Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. Kerry's record
Here is a quick way to review a voting record. The following groups rated Kerry's votes in the senate, and the following numbers represent the percentage of the time he voted their preferred position:


Planned Parenthood: 100
Americans for the Arts: 100
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People: 100
American Medical Association: 100
AFL-CIO : 92
National Education Association: 100
National Parks Conservation Association: 100
American Civil Liberties Union: 71
League of Conservation Voters: 92
Zero Population Growth: 100
Vietnam Veterans of America: 92
National Farmers Union: 91
National Organization for Women: 85
Christian Coalition: 0
National Right to Life Committee : 0
National Rifle Association assigned Senator Kerry a grade of F (that's against Dean's A)

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score 's calculations, in 2002, Senator Kerry tied for the most liberal record for votes on social and economic policy. His votes on foreign policy were considered more liberal than 73 percent of senators.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. That's it.
Too liberal. Unelectable. Yadda yadda yadda.
(sarcasm, except for the yadda's. I meant those literally.)

Except for the NRA record, that's a perfect score for me. And I'm willing to accept the NRA record, with the other things he's bringing to the table.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. Dean was a blank canvas for almost two years.
I originally supported Dean because I kept hearing how inspiring he was, how liberal he was (It was VT, after all), and how he had cornered the market on grassroots organizing. From all I read, I figured that Dean must be a dynamic public speaker with a squeaky clean background.
But I couldn't find out much about his record, his platform (other than generalities), or his strategy for defeating the freak monkey. Dean had sealed his gubernatorial record, which gave me pause. And every Dean supporter I talked to or read about painted a different picture of their candidate.
After researching Dean for several weeks last summer, I finally had enough info to compare him to other candidates. (Note: During this time, Dean was wrestling with integrating his grassroots supporters into his professional campaign machine, and many DU Dean supporters were threatening to pull their support if he didn't incorporate them into his professional campaign.)
Then I made a chart. On this chart I placed the issues which I considered critical: economy; health care; foreign policy; social justice; and beating *.
I was shocked when I looked at the results: Kerry was clearly the best candidate, IMO, to kick * back to the pig farm and get us on the right track.
Also, while Dean was collecting $10 from supporters, Kerry was able to cash in big time on 35 years of service, Dem colleagues, and a network of veterans, firefighters and police (Kerry wrote the legislation that would put 100,000 new cops and firefighters on the beat).
Plus, Dean was slamming the national party machine, without which the nomination is almost impossible, and I questioned his reckless approach to gaining their endorsement.
I'm still reading posts from Dean supporters that "Our guy is strong on those issues that Kerry talks about, too," but IMO the race was Dean's to lose: sure, the media is evil, but the media didn't make all of those gaffes and base 3/4 of the campaign on the war vote. The world is holding its metaphorical breath, hoping America can dump the freak monkey: we can't afford a candidate who is not prepared to be a dignified statesman on the world stage.
Things may change down the road, but for now I'm working to help JK slam that famous door into *'s butt!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
19. And yet in spite of what you said
Kerry remains just another corporate whore, doing the bidding of whomever will pay him money. And no, I'm not giving "all the other candidates" a pass. That is a big part of the problem with the party in general, it has turned into a corporate whoring machine, with all of the candidates guilty, with the exception of Dennis Kucinich.

Sorry, I want a change in direction, not just a change in the speed with which we approach the cliff edge. Kerry, along with most of the other Dem candidates can't provide that change, therefore he won't get my vote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
22. It doesn't matter what DUers think or know about Kerry.
He will be red meat for Rove and the corporate press. They'll savage him on his appearance, his ancestry, his baggage as a Northeast Liberal who reminds them of Dukakis (expect to hear that name a lot), a Vietnam soldier turned traitor
(think Cleland only 100 times worse). They'll also mention the times he's voted with the chimp - IWR and Patriot Act -
implying that on these key issues Kerry thinks the chimp's right so why change.

The media is giving Kerry a free ride for now simply because they want him to be the nominee. Come Fall he'll have a harder
time staying afloat than the Titanic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. If kerry is the nominee then we are toast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. HAHAH...that's why they declared his candidacy dead for months?
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 10:39 AM by blm
BushInc doesn't want to face Kerry because it was Kerry who nailed Reagan and Bush on BCCI and IranContra. Kerry knows how those events relate to 9-11 and that is why the good guys in the intel community are lined up behind Kerry.

Look what is hapopening in England BCCI trial going on NOW.

The Pakistani government is examining records of the failed Bank of Credit and Commerce International in its investigation into the role Pakistani scientists may have played in selling nuclear knowhow to Iran, North Korea and Libya.

According to bankers, some of whom worked with BCCI before it collapsed in 1991, Pakistani investigators have sought the help of former BCCI employees to try to uncover payments made to scientists connected with Pakistan's nuclear programme.

BCCI's role in financing Pakistan's own nuclear efforts has long been the subject of scrutiny. In 1992, a report into BCCI from a US Congressional sub-committee headed by Senator John Kerry, now a leading Democratic presidential contender, said "there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear programme". Though it said the issue deserved further investigation, there was little public follow-through.

This year, however, as evidence has mounted that Pakistani scientists helped the uranium enrichment programmes of Iran, North Korea and Libya, the Pakistani government has launched an investigation. A government spokesman in Islamabad said that anybody found to have passed on secrets would be punished, but denied that the government approved any transfers.
contd:

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullS...

(note -- knowing the FT, this story will go 'pay-per-view' in about 24 hours, so save it to disk if you want to keep it for reference)

  
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. Bring it on
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YNGW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
24. My biggest problem with Kerry....
... is that he says he's going to raise taxes only on the rich and not on the middle class and poor, and that's BS, I'm not buying that line for a second. Clinton said the same thing and he raised taxes on everyone. If Kerry is elected, he'll do the same thing.

So far, I am uncommitted to any candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Revenge is not a pretty sight
and neither is innuendo
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
28. That didn't stop the attacks on Dean
What you describe could easily describe the attacks that have been on Dean for the past two month. Pardon me if I have very little sympathy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. You're missing the point
No one is saying that we can stop the GOP from attacking. The point is that we shouldn't believe and repeat the GOP's obvious lies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
29. This is true
Just because someone is not a Washington Insider, does not make them not a "political insider". There has been a damned lot that these beltway insiders have gotten done, in the past, tried to get done and had to only get partially done as happens when your party is in a minority, and especially now, when the Bush White House has done some amazingly nasty things to get democrats out of office so they could seize control of both the legislature and the executive branch. Bush's theft of the 2000 election is just one part of his theft. The kinds of abosolutely unethical and simply evil things he did to people like Max Cleland are just one thing.

Without those "Washington Insiders fighting so hard, and doing some very historically unprecedented things, like filibusering Federal Court nominees, which was going out on a limb, and taking great political risks, and simply voted up or down, all those extreme right wing judges would be in the courts today, beginning to overturn Roe v. Wade, completely eleiminating overtime pay, getting rid of ADA, the list goes on. Without the Dems getting Nobel Prize economists to openly state that the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy would not help the economy get out of recession, but a smaller middle class tax cut would, and by simply voting against any tax cut, rather than the recommended cuts, Bush would have simply passed {b]another 1.2 billion dollar tax cut the second time around. This credible testimony by these economists forced Bush to lower his second tax cut to one quarter of what he demanded. Without these insiders threatening antoher filibuster, this time of of ANWR, Bush and Cheneys buddies would be drilling in Alaska today.

Bill CLinton and Hillary Clinton have both stated that it was the fact that they were outsiders that prevented them from passing some of the legislation they wanted passed the most, like Universal Health Care.

Dean himself is no political outsider, and as Governor, democrats, his own party, frequently found questionable behavior on the part of Dean, and his closeness to "special interests" and lobbyists, and wither vetoing legislation, arranging for government deals, or supporting legislation that very large and powerful corporations wanted passed, which were not in the best interest of the people of his state, but in the interests of those large businesses. These businesses have praised Dean's greasing the wheels for them, to allow them to get around regulations that smaller and less powerful corporations have to abide by. There are numerous cases in which campaign contributions to Dean came just a few days before or after Dean vetoed legislation, or helped Repubicans pass legislation that these corporate powers would have had to have very long, protracted fights over, and in the end, still possibly fail to have their way with, had not Dean been so willing to support them, and come to their rescue when they were not getting their way. And in many cases, these things Dean did for these companies had nothing to do with creating jobs in the state of Vermont. I have posted numerous links to such behavior on Deans part in the last day or so, and they are available to anyone who cares to look, One such posting:

Who's the Real Howard Dean?
As Vermont governor, the liberal firebrand was a fiscal conservative with close ties to business


Conservative Vermont business leaders praise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required. Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the "civil unions" law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean...

...Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.

And when environmentalists tried to limit expansion of snowmaking at ski resorts, "Dean had to show his true colors, and he did -- by insisting on a solution that allowed expanding snowmaking," says Stenger. IBM (IBM ) by far the state's largest private employer, says it got kid-gloves treatment. "We would meet privately with him three to four times a year to discuss our issues," says John O'Kane, manager for government relations at IBM's Essex Junction plant, "and his secretary of commerce would call me once a week just to see how things were going."....

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

There are literally dozens of similar articles, from both Progressive and business sources, which also indicate the fact that while he was being so very business friendly, businesse executives have being freindly fo his PAC, Find for a Health America:

CLF seeks details of Dean administration’s talks with utilities
March 11, 2002

(from the State section)
By SUSAN SMALLHEER Southern Vermont Bureau

MONTPELIER — The Conservation Law Foundation will file a freedom of information request with the Dean administration today to find out how many contacts it has had with Vermont utility executives over the pending sale of the Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant.

Mark Sinclair, senior attorney with the environmental group, said Monday that recent news reports about the financial contributions made by Vermont utility executives or board members to Gov. Howard Dean’s presidential campaign political action committee were “too much of a coincidence.”

Sinclair said the new offer from Entergy Nuclear of Jackson, Miss., last week wasn’t substantially better than the original bid, and doesn’t really address the serious concerns raised by the state earlier this winter about local control and other economic issues.

“The department didn’t get anything,” he said.

Sinclair compared it to the negotiations with Vice President Dick Cheney by energy companies that are now subject to an investigation by the General Accounting Office.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43924

These articles are just two of literally dozens I have bookmarked, and they are just a fraction of the hundred I had at one time and then got rid of as I was so offended by Dean's very political insider, back room deal, record as Governor.

Not the stuff that people have to do because it is necessary to sometimes make compromises with businesses in order to accomplish something positive for the people who elected you, but simple down right political favoritism, and rewarding of ones campaign contributors. And those are only the ones that can be found because the local newspapers, or variious advocacy groups discovered.

Where there is smoke there is fire, and considering Dean has been in some questionable positions that were obvious, given the fact that he also sealed many of his records as Governor that are now being questioned, considering Deans own reasons forwanting them sealed, in order to avoid anything embarassing coming up while he was running for president, and in case he was elected to a second term, should give everyone who even thinks about voting for him pause.

One of the reasons that people in Congress's records are not available to the public, is based on the fact that almost all of it is already available to the public, becasue almost all of their work is done directly in the public eye, much of their debate, and their meetings with lobbyists, business experts, and special interest groups on any number of legislative issues is done in public, on places like C-SPAN.

How many of any Governors meetings with these people or groups are filmed, taped or offered live so the public could see how a Governor comes to his decision to favor legislation, or threaten to veto it.
Again, few, or none. Due to this fact, it is rather correct for a Governor to be asked to open his records, particularly if he is running for any higher national office. If he intends to retire, that is something else, and even in that case, I would still think that those records should be open to the public.


Even Wesley Clark's meetings with various Senate and House Comittees were a matter of publicrecord. Video,audio, and typed copies of many of his contact with cogress and comittees and sub- comittees are all a matter of public record, and far less than any Governor's are kept from public scrutiny.

I am not stating that all a Governor's records should be open to the public. Those records that are of a personal confidential nature, or relating to national or state security, shoud of course be, and in most cases, would be anyway, sealed and made private.

But all those records in which a Governor meets with executives to discuss issues that have to do with a Governor making decisions as part of his duties to the public that elected them should be open for all the public to see.

It is the only way to truly make sure that there is transparancy in Government, and also to make sure that a clever and well spoken person, who can convince others that he is honest, when he may not be, cannot be elected to the highest office in the land.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
30. Okay, I Get It....
If I have some sincere and serious questions about Kerry, it's simply due to my "wholesale ignorance".

Well, that will win me over for sure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. You're not "getting it"
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 11:05 AM by sangh0
No one thinks that sincere and serious questions concerning Kerry should be avoided. The point is, you shouldn't assume that Kerry is a "Washington insider" or a member of "The Establishment" without first looking at his record.

Does that sound unreasonable to you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Give me a break. LOL.
Kerry has been in DC for 30 some years and he's running as the "outsider" now? Keerist. Even Ted Kennedy wouldn't pull that nonsense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Gove you a break?
Wellstone was in DC for a long time also, and no one is calling him an insider. Even Dean lauds Wellstone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
36. The attacks have made me more confident than ever.

If this is the best they can do, I'm happy.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elsiesummers Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
37. His positions are great - he's a lousy candidate.
I have no problem, in fact embrace, most of Kerry's positions, and admire him as a Senator.

Bottom line - as a salesman, a pitchman selling the Democratic party, as packaging to win the presidency on a Democratic platform - Kerry sucks.

I'm a party line Dem and all four of the top candidates are fine by me in terms of platform. And I will eventually volunteer for Kerry if he is the nominee, although I don't prefer the job of bailing a sinking ship.

Kerry - he is so wooden in his delivery - and his strange craggy face - and his middle name "Forbes" tells us he's a connected upper class type - and his gobs of money and prep school background - and his wife with her foreign accent (do we really think people will embrace a first lady with a foreign accent?)

How can an ultra wealthy ruling class type guy like Kerry sell his populist message? I don't see it. Not only that, he doesn't deliver it with the passion of one who has lived it. He is in a similar resume position to Al Gore, but with even less of a regional favorability.

Bottom line - there have been three candidates in the mix who might be able to win: Edwards, Clark and Gephardt, in that order. Gep is out.

Clinton and Carter did not have that elitist background. I have a big problem with Dean on this level too - although I think Dean speaks like an average Joe far better than Kerry does and would have a better shot at winning than Kerry, despite his flubs and embracing of wedge issues. Dean does say millieu and contretemps - not everyman words - a big concern.

Edwards/Clark or Clark/Edwards to win.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. And the good people of IA and NH disagree
Kerry has a good chance of taking MO, AZ and NM Feb 3rd imo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elsiesummers Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Yes he is the likely nominee
but he will be a huge failure come the GE. I want a nominee who can win the GE above all else.

Kerry will never be able to sell that he represents the working class any better than Bush because of his inheritance - because he hasn't lived a working class life. He has attended prep schools and Ivy league colleges.

Ever wonder why Republicans can make the "liberal elitist" charge stick? It's because of candidates like Gore and Kerry - with elitist backgrounds. Why should we make it easy for the Republicans? Let's at least put up a bit of a fight.

It doesn't matter if Kerry sweeps the primaries - nominate Kerry and we are doomed to four more years of Bush.


And I have a big big problem with that.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I disagree, we are not doomed to four more years of bush* if Kerry is
the Democratic nominee. I think the people will listen to his message and obviously they already are and responding in a positive manner. I believe Kerry is the one who can and will send bush* back to Crawford.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
teevee99 Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
38. why didn't he even bother to vote to protect americans' overtime?
why why why?
Is it because he's not "in touch" with the average american's needs?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I must assume that you don't know the facts of the matter
These are the votes that mattered, the cloture votes:

Tuesday, rejected(which is good): http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00001

Thursday, passed (bad): http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00002


The swing voters who went over to the dark side between Tuesday and Thursday:

Bingaman (D-NM)
Breaux (D-LA)
Carper (D-DE)
Dayton (D-MN)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Nelson (D-NE)
Reid (D-NV)
Schumer (D-NY)



Final passage: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=2&vote=00003
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tryanhas Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
42. Who cares about his positions?
It is hypocritical of him to criticize the "SPECIAL INTERESTS" when Skull and Bones OWNS THE FREAKING SPECIAL INTERESTS!

What part of that don't you people get???

Kerry's campaign is a joke.

He is running as the Skull and Bones alternative to the Skull and Bones member already in the White House (Bush).

Vote for Kerry and you are voting FOR the special interests!

It is so irritating and depressing to see people supporting this guy not realizing AND REFUSING TO ACCEPT the fact that they are being tricked and are voting for the very special interests who are screwing this country when they vote for Kerry!

His record or his words or his positions are irrelevant. Skull and Bones needs different "RESUMES" to get into the White House which is what they want more than anything.

Go ahead and support Kerry, and support the SPECIAL INTERESTS AT THE SAME TIME.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
47. Hard to attack Kerry's positions on issues because


no matter the issues, Kerry always sits on the fence and plays both sides.

You can't be on the wrong side of an issue when you're always on both sides.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Nice crock of shit..does it come in other colors besides brown?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Yes, it does
It also comes in brown!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC