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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:44 PM
Original message
Christian Right / Progressive Left - Birds of a Feather?
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 12:49 PM by joemurphy
This is an interesting essay I found at this site:

<http://www.zompist.com/leqr.html> It's author is Mark Rosenfelder, a linguist and computer programmer that has done a lot of thinking on American politics. I'm not sure I agree with everything he says, but I do agree with some of it. Anyway, I'd be interested in what you think about it:

Christian Right/Progressive Left - Birds of a Feather?

Progressives and the Christian right are not normally thought to resemble each other. Certainly they don't like each other. But since I've observed both at close quarters, have enjoyed both C.S. Lewis and Noam Chomsky, read Frank Peretti and Molly Ivins, meditated on Francis Schaeffer and Alison Bechdel, what strike me are the similarities.

I list some of the resemblances below. (You can find the differences yourself.) Perhaps each camp will recognize itself a little in the other. What they do with this alarming recognition is up to them.

Political correctness/ orthodoxy. Both are highly concerned with correct thinking. Of course only the leftists ever feel bad about this: "politically correct" evolved as a leftist joke. There's always someone more to the left than you. But then, there's always someone more fundamentalist than you.

Historicism. Both camps view of history as a drama where destiny is on their side. You can even see the same defense mechanisms at work: both good news and bad news are part of the plan-- good news of course obviously confirms our impending victory; bad news confirms the dire predictions that are equally part of the ideological inheritance. And the derived tendency on both sides is to sit back and leave the struggle to others: if history is on your side, why exert yourself?

Schismaticism. Both camps have a tendency to divide into tiny factions, wasting their energy in fights over absurd points of doctrine. Both tend to admire the ideologically strict and to despise toleration and compromise.

As a corollary of this, both sides hate Clinton. (See also Puritanism.)

Both are given to conspiracy theories-- a conviction that the Other Side is a monolithic unity dedicated to trampling goodness and decency. The idea that the Other Side is itself a fractious mass which defeats most of its own purposes, or that the course of the world is determined more by apathy and stupidity than by active evil, is completely alien to their mentality.

Both are convinced of pervasive media bias against them. Rightists babble about the "liberal media"; Christians complain about 'secular humanism'; progressives are just as sure that the media are the mouthpiece of conservative moneyed interests. Neither side has any clue why its own shrill and narrow-minded magazines are not more popular.

Both have violent, separatist fringes (which the other side assumes are typical of the species). At the same time, paradoxically, if you want a pacifist, the two best places to look are in nooks and crannies of Christianity or the left.

Both criticize worldly (patriarchal) values. "Materialism" is a bad word for both sides. Both, in principle, reject consumerism and disdain worldly success (though both have a few heroes in their own fold who've attained success without losing their values). Buchanan criticizes Wall Street almost as much as the progressives do.
(In its origins, Christianity is as distrustful of the rich as Marxism, and Christians have often been in the forefront of the struggle for social justice. But in this country, at least, the radicalism of the Gospel has been undercut by "prosperity theology"-- the idea that far from entering Heaven less easily than camels thread needles, the rich man is specially favored by God.)


On both sides, there's a substantial minority which truly attempts to live simply and live in community. Lesbian separatists form communes and food co-ops; so do Evangelicals. Sometimes they even end up in the same, non-worldly service fields: education, social work, counseling, even serving among the poor in the Third World.

They share some organizing tactics, notably small groups: Bible studies, housegroups, consciousness raising groups, steering committees. (Evangelicals often admire Communist cell-organizing.)

Both have a voluminous, self-referential, and impenetrable cultural production. Both have the ability to make readers out of people who would not ordinarily read.

Both are convinced that they speak for decent people in the country (the "moral majority" in one case, "The People" in the other).

Neither, however, has a wholly adequate commitment to democracy. Both have supported foreign dictatorships in the past if the dictator mouthed the right platitudes from their side. Both want to spread their message to the masses, but have no great interest in what the masses themselves want to do or to say. Both are willing to resort to censorship, and have tried to silence voices in the academy which dismay them.
At root, I fear, both sides discount this business of democracy --mere democracy will never lead to salvation; you can only trust God/The Revolution; and the role of The People is to be instructed, not to speak.


Neither group has much patience for traditional politics -- though both can put in the footwork for a cause they believe in. When grand success does not come, however, they tend to lose interest and dissipate their energy on radicalisms most people will never share: vegetarianism; creationism; concerns with lookism and animal rights; crusades against movies or singing in church. When it comes right down to it they prefer personal integrity to political effectiveness.

Both sides are more comfortable with communities than with individuals, and don't make things comfortable for the independent thinker. And for both this value has declined over the years. Fundamentalists used to more or less ignore the world and-- laudably-- concentrated on their own sins, on "getting right with God". Now they've stopped worrying about the logs in their own eyes, and spend their time deploring the supposed sins of outsiders.
And leftists used to go out and organize The People, and work on issues most people could understand and support: unions, civil rights, social benefits, public works, day care. Now they've retreated into their Fill-in-the-Blank Studies Departments, and mistake the production of academic prose and review articles for social action.


Both tend toward puritanism. This may not seem to fit leftists; but consider the alliance between fundamentalists and '70s feminists against pornography. There is definitely a segment of the left that is just as embarrassed about human sexuality as any believer is, and just as apt to consider women to be frail creatures defenseless against rapacious masculinity.

Both are concerned with spirituality. This was not true of the old-style Left, of course; but it's been a strong and growing current in the left since the '60s-- what with chakras and crystals and Wicca and shamans, no one has any time to pursue one-world socialism any more.

Both are very concerned that other people will misbehave-- the Christians, that they will fall short morally; progressives, that they will oppress each other. Both are right, of course. In both cases this concern translates into a zeal for ordering the lives of other people-- not just their morality but their attitudes and demeanor-- a zeal which the Other Side finds alarming and incomprehensible.

(Hoo boy, now I've offended my friends in both camps. Lighten up, guys...)
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Tamyrlin79 Donating Member (944 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. The difference is this:
These fringes on the Left really are fringe. On the right, they are the mainstream.

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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. My immediate observation would be that while Left
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 01:14 PM by joemurphy
Progressives have their excesses, they have also espoused many good ideas and causes that over time -- and with a lot of blood and sweat -- ultimately became mainstream centrist-liberal ideas and part and parcel of the American social and economic fabric.

I can't really think of anything worthwhile that the Christian Right has ever brought to America's political or socio-economic table.

But there are sure similarities in tactics and approaches and I thought the essay does a good job highlighting many of them.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. But the article didn't
really delineate Christian Right, did it?
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Well, I thought it did...Delineate? How do you mean?
Like define it? I thought he was contrasting the Christian Right (the Moral Majority/"moral values are important to me") types with our radical lefties. I guess I don't follow you here.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I wrote that without re-reading the article
let me read it once again and get back to you.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Gulp. I'm embarrassed
it is in the freaking title: Christian Right.

Sorry. When reading I was thinking right in general. Because to me, the Christian right is a rather recent thing. Hitler and Musolini were atheists, weren't they?

Anyway, so much for speed reading.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Good point.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Do you really think so?
To me, fundies are fringe groups. I don't have any figures in front of me, but I really don't know any personally and I live in a southern town.

I wonder what the actual numbers are?
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Awesome! Exactly why both fringes annoy the fuck out of me.
Terrific writing! I think it hits upon the idiocies I see, at times, on both sides. I am gratified that there are others who feel the same way.

Nominated!
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Yeah
I feel like I can stop writing now. This person said it all! I have always contended that if you go extreme left and I go extreme right we will meet each other somewhere..probably out in the woods.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. who of any significance in the Democratic Party would you consider
"fringe left"? And more importantly what positions do they advocate that you would consider so out far of mainstream opinion that would warrant the term "fringe Left"?
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Every movement has its fringe edge that goes too far. In
the 60s & 70s the same was true. When the civil rights movement and anti-war became violent they were using the same tactics as the war mongers. It is why it is so important to watch what we are doing.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. who specifically in the Democratic Party left is by any wild stretch of
the imagination as far to the left as say Pat Robertson is to the right?

And what policies do they support that would put them as far to the left as the right-wing fundamentalist are to the right?

Can you site one single example?
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Hmmm...challenging question...PETA maybe, some extreme
environmentalists, Ralph Nader (?) (Maybe/maybe not), some of the violent anti-globalists, violent anarchists (although these shade into extreme libertarians)...

These pop into my head initially.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I agree that there are a small number of people in the U.S. who would meet
an international standard of "far left". I can't think of any who hold any significance within the Democratic Party.

Dennis Kucinich would be considered only moderate left in every other western democracy. While virtually the entire Republican Party would be considered fringe extremist virtually anywhere in the world.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think that's probably right from a world perspective.
Of course there isn't much Marxism or Socialism to be found in the American left any more. And what there was of it historically never seemed to get anywhere. Americans have always been more concerned with bread and butter than with class struggle.

Still, there's an obvious tension between what I'll call left-progressives and centrist-liberals in the Democratic Party. You see it everyday in the rants here in DU about Diebold, the DLC, media-bias, and the power of the corporations. There are, as someone pointed out in the thread about the differences between Progressives and Liberals real disputes about NAFTA/CAFTA, globalism, laissez-faire capitalism, and the proper role of welfare in our society.
I don't think this equates to untenable extremism though. I agree with you on that.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. But isn't that because
at this moment the right is in power?

I can think of a time when John Kerry was considered "far left."
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. oooh, a challenge!
let's see:

Left: slavery reparations (supported by a number of Dems)
Right: segregation (KKK)

Now, don't argue the merits of the issues, but are they analogous?


Gosh I love this stuff....
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. LOL n/t
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I would suggest that virtually the entire Republican Party falls well
outside the range of respectable opinion in virtually any other western democracy.

While no Democratic Party public office holder could by any wild stretch of the imagination be considered a "far leftist" by international standards.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I'll have to drop out here
because I just don't know enough about the continuum of political thought worldwide to join in for or against.

I had always thought of mainstream pubs are rather moderate. Not the fundies, now. But the Nixon, Ford, Reagan, etc. But I full admit ignorance of the full spectrum here.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Well, people liked to analogize Margaret Thatcher's Tories to
Reagan's Republicans...But I don't think you have the kind of Christian Righties (and certainly not the voting Fundies) that we have anywhere else on this planet.

Spain's, Poland's, or Ireland's Catholics come to mind -- but even they aren't as zany as Ralph Reed, Falwell, or Robertson and their followers.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. well yes, that's kind of the point I'm making
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 02:28 PM by Douglas Carpenter
When I hear some people (including some Democrats) talk about the far left having too much influence on the Democratic Party, I just cannot for the life of me imagine who on earth they could be talking about.

Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn are not Democratic Party politicians. Even though I admire the works of those two men, I would not disagree if someone described them as "far left", not as a pejorative--just a fair observation that they advocate ideas well outside mainstream political consensus.

So when certain people talk of the left fringe in regards to the Democratic Party, I find such talk beyond preposterous.

Now the right-fringe does dominate the Republican Party. Take a look at Mr. DeLay--here is a man who believes that America must join Israel and push them into provoking a war with the Muslim world, destroy the Al Ahqsa Mosque and trigger world war III so Jesus can return. If that is not loony, I don't know what is. I just can't think of any equivalency in the Democratic Party.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Most of the Christian Right is tangled up with moral issues
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 02:45 PM by joemurphy
abortion being the biggie. I guess they would say that our solid pro-choice stance is just as intransigent. Other issues are there too -- school prayer, creationism and intelligent design, pornography, violence in the movies, etc. The Fundies hate these and we oppose their stance on free speech-First Amendment grounds just as adamantly. Stem-cell research is another example of an our morality/their morality thing. Gay marriage or civil unions is another one. I've never been able to figure out why they're opposed to progressive taxation or governmental regulation -- but they are.


I guess I'm sort of being a devil's advocate here. I can't think of anybody in the Democratic Party as benighted as Tom Delay, but to be fair, there are a lot of Fundies that would say the same about Ted Kennedy. I wouldn't consider Kennedy a fringe loonie. But Tom Tancredo would.

And even here in DU you see a lot of people exhibiting the sorts of behaviors that Rosenfelder alludes to in his article. And we're supposed to be the Democratic Party base, aren't we?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. well yes that's true. Whenever you have people committed to a cause you
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 02:59 PM by Douglas Carpenter
will run into some zealotry. And I'm not one too give much credence to things that sound like conspiracy theories to me. That I find a fairly recent development on the American left. I always thought of conspiracy theory as a right-wing thing.

Getting back to my point, perhaps I have a certain view having lived most of my life outside the U.S. It's just when I hear certain people including certain Democrats refer to the "far left" or "ultra-liberal" or "fringe left" in regards to progressives in the Democratic Party in drives me nuts. Show me one Democratic Party figure who would meet an international standard as "fringe left". Or show me one Democratic Party figure who is as out of the mainstream as Tom DeLay.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yeah, I lived in Germany for a while. I know what you mean.
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 03:08 PM by joemurphy
We don't have anything here like their Greens or Social Democrats, who are further left than anything in the American Democratic Party. But their Conservatives are further to the left than our Republicans too. It's just a different spectrum.

I agree with you. Some of our Fundies ought to try living in Norway for a year. It might change their views considerably about what a Gommorah a society adopting welfare capitalism whole hog is supposed to be. Some might actually change their views. Some would have to think they were in paradise.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. well it was actually when I lived in Wiesbaden in the early/mid 70's
that I realized that European social democracy works better than anything else I have ever seen. That's not to say it is perfect. It certainly has its drawbacks. But, even the American claim that it offers more rapid upward mobility is no longer necessarily the case. In Europe people are at least slightly aware of what is being tried in the countries around them. Here in America it is as if the rest of the world does not even exist.
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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. That's being tried time and gain, equaling the left and the right.
It is not true, period. It's just another means of trying to make the left look bad.

That's not to say the left has always been right. Often, it hasn't. But always look at the motivation... with the left it's not personal gain but common gain.

-------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I'm not sure I agree with you
I think there are many idealists on the left, but I believe there are many on the right, as well. I don't think we can claim all leftists are completely altruistic. Look at the excesses of Communism and the personal gains of the party elite.

And even Hitler was doing what he thought was best for his people. Common gain, not really personal.

Even extreme right wing Christians believe they are saving the world, not just themselves.

To me, the gist of the article is that extremists have many similarities, when compared to moderates.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I thought so too.
I don't think anyone's equating the values of Progressives and the Christian Right. But there are arguable similarities in their lack of pragmatism, their pre-occupation with single issues, their inability to compromise, their zealotry. I think that's all Rosenfelder is saying.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Joemurphy...OT...you aren't from NJ, are you?
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Nope. Indiana. We Murphys abound though. More of us in the
Dublin phone directory than anyone else. :-)
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