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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:36 PM
Original message
I'm worried about this indictment.
Has Ronnie Earl overstepped himself here? A single conspiracy charge sounds weak to me. I know DeLay's dirty as hell, but I want it to be convincing. I know some will say that Al Capone still went to prison, even if it was only for tax evasion, but I want DeLay to burn, metaphorically speaking, of course.

Most of all, I hope the hell he doesn't become some sort of martyr.

Somebody reassure me, please!
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Can't.
All I can say is that a good prosecutor wouldn't ask a jury to consider indicting Delay unless he thought a jury would convict him.

It's up to the jury. That's hardly reassuring.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I just hope he isn't blindly flailing, hoping there's a "there" there.
Fingers crossed...

Actually, much of this depends on how the media goes. They've been more anti-GOP lately than pro. Hopefully that trend will continue. If it swings back, look out.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Me too, and so would the DA.
But that's all the assurance you're going to get.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. It was the grand jury that handed down the indictment...
It was a grand jury that handed down the indictment, not the prosecutor.

Open question: Can a prosecutor choose to NOT prosecute someone if a grand jury has indicted them? I guessing NOT.

My brother was the County prosecutor here. There was a controversial case that came up (cop killing a boy with a toy gun) and when it was brought up in conversation he said, "it's in the hands of the grand jury..."
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I believe the prosecutor can choose not to prosecute, but he has
to lay out his reasons for believing the case is not prosecutable. I don't believe "I don't feel like it" is adequate.

Disclaimer - I am, of course, just talking out of my ass because I know little about the law, and nothing about Texas law in particular.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. The prosecutor puts evidence and law in front of grand jury
I'm sure somebody could tell a story of an independent grand jury that indicted someone the prosecutor didn't think should be indicted. And in that case, I'm sure that the prosecutor really could not prosecute, if he had the guts.





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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Prosecutors are generally viewed as wrapping grand juries
around their little fingers. So, there's little or no difference between the prosecutor indicting and the grand jury indicting.
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm sure Delay is hoping to be pardoned, and Bush will do it
But it's lose-lose all around for them. Just the fact that he was indicted is "GAME OVER".
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. A pardon would be suicide for both, which would be fine by me.
I'm worried it'll be dropped. Or, worse, there'll be a memo-gate-like backlash because somebody did some sloppy prosecuting. Remember, attacking the messenger shifts the debate. They do it all the time.
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Bluesplayer Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. On the other hand,
A suicide by both would be good too.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Not necessarily mutual suicide.
If they can keep the thing tied up with procedures for a couple years they can prevent it spreading out into the general repub environment, then lame duck * pardons Delay and it's all over. * is on his way out, and therefore suffers no consequences.
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Carla in Ca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I agree
A long probe with only 1 count at first seems trivial. But as I think about it, better one that sticks than several with most of them being thrown out. Also, we have others who will now be more likely to 'sing' now that he has been indicted.



Looks like a chimp!
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Shrek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. I don't see how a pardon is possible
Unless Texas has a goofy law whereby former governors retain pardon power after leaving office, how could Bush pardon him for state (not federal) crimes?
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Bush JUST pardoned a bunch of petty drug dealers
I don't think the state/Federal thing matters.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. .
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 03:47 PM by FlashHarry
.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Well, okay, I guess that's one vote for "don't worry about the indictment"
Worry about alcibiades mystery and whatever his fucking team is, yes. Indictment, no.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. I call a
fucking half-assed scared little coward a coward, every time. That's my team. We know that we lose because of cowards like Flash, who go whining and fretting about anything, even good developments for us. Flash's is an insipid, disgusting posture. Defeatist bullshit needs to be called. Worry about that.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. Earl didn't indict Delay. A grand jury of Texans of both parties did.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Thanks. That's what I wanted to hear.
I've just had my hopes up so many times over the past five years... (still have a bottle of Veuve Cliquot chilling in my fridge from election night '04, bought when the first exit polls came in).
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. He had to bring a conspiracy beef because . . .
DeLay's bad acts happened in Harris County, Texas, and Earle is the Travis County District Attorney. However, the people with whom DeLay was doing his bad acts were in Travis County (the county where the state capital is located). So Earle had to establish jurisdiction over DeLay by charging him with conspiracy with the Travis County folks.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. makes sense
thanks!
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Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. And, then there is this:
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. How about we consider this as the lightweight opening act for the big rock
band that will be the Abramoff stuff.

This just gets the shit collar around his neck.

I agree, this could well be a weak indictment, but until we get the legal WMDs out, this will do just fine. This is good screech monkey chow. A little snack for them to chew on.

And consider ..... the RW noise machine embodied in the screech monkeys is controlled by idiot son ... not Delay. And we know idiot son will allow Delay to swing in a heartbeat. Anything to keep the shit collar off his own neck ..... or better said .... Rove will do anything to keep it off **his** neck.
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mulsh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. a single charge may be good
It makes the prosecutor's case more straight foreword, easy for jurors to comprehend. I just hope they don't plea bargain this one.
btw have you read the indictment, if not go to thesmokinggun the doc is only a couple of pages. here's a link http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0928051delay1.html
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. He's been a martyr to 20% of Americans in denial.
and will remain one forever.

There are still some sickos and hopeless dim-wits in this country who think that Nixon was destroyed by the press, not his own crimes.

DeLay is going down, and so is the Republican party. Delay is the original "can of worms." He is only the begining.
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
19. The general public only pays attention to the screaming headlines
and this indictment is definitely a screaming headline: a big shit-bomb just exploded, spattering DeLay and the rest of the Repukelican scum.

If the whole thing fizzles, by that time DeLay will have been (officially, at least) out of his leadership position for long enough to have set the Repukelicans back in their quest for total control of everything. And the public will long since have ceased to pay attention--but the power vacuum left by DeLay's removal will still be there (or will have been filled by someone inadequate like Easy Target Dreier.)

A hurricane has ALREADY HIT the Repukes. Yes, the floodwaters may eventually recede, but the mold and filth and ruin will remain.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm not sure what is going on but one things for sure...
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 03:55 PM by mikelewis
the law is fighting back against the neocon agenda.

The first clue is Ohio. The Tom Noe scandal was directly related to the 2004 election. That brought down Taft, who plead guilty to ethics violations and is rocking the GOP here in Ohio. Now we have Delay getting hit with an indictment, allegations of insider trading with Frist, possible treason charges for the entire White House staff and a neocon agenda beginning to see the first signs of a meltdown. The single count of conspiracy is important because they know, THEY KNOW, they can prove it. We know he's as crooked as a rattler but proving it is more difficult. Ousting him from his seat at the head of the table wouldn't have been done without a whole lotta proof. Relax FlashHarry, Delay's conviction is irrelevant, his removal from the game is priceless.

On edit:
I forgot about Hastert and the Turkish Treason accusation leveled by Edmunds... 2006 is looking better and better
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. Hopefully he has a stronger case than he had against Kay Bailey..
about 10 years ago.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
23. We need to make sure that the media coverage is accurate....
Since no one else will do it! I am also sending this to Democratic Congresspeople around the country. Please help! We can make this happen!

My letter to Fox News on the DeLay "defense" at Comments@foxnews.com
and a similar one sent to MSNBC at question@msnbc.com
Also Copied Campaign Desk, the New York Times, and The Washington Post.
-----------------
Dear Fox News,
Mr. Tom De Lay is using the same old tired defense that Republicans use when in trouble; Partisan wichhunt!

Anyone examining Mr. Earle's record of prosecution by party label would not call him a partisan Prosecutor, no matter what party he might belong to. So I ask, why should DeLay's accusations be given the time of day by the media on the question of Mr. Earle's motives? But nevertheless, DeLay is calling Earle a Partisan Zealot Fanatic, and Fox News is bidding his duty by questioning Mr. Earle's motivation without addressing Earle's record as I have detailed it below!

Based on Tom DeLay's attacks on Mr. Earle ethical character, I am calling Mr. DeLay desperate.

Fox, Fair and Balanced? I'm from Missouri; please "show me"!

Respectfully,
C. McClendon

Detailed List of Ronnie Earle's prosecuted politicians:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/20...

" Former state Rep. Gilbert Serna, D-El Paso. Pleaded guilty to charges of theft by a public servant in 2000.

Former state Rep. Lane Denton, D-Waco. Found guilty of theft in 1995.

State Rep. Betty Denton, D-Waco, pleaded guilty in 1995 to perjury charges.

Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican, indicted on a charge of official misconduct. Earle in 1994 declined to present a case at trial. Hutchison received a directed verdict of acquittal.

Land Commissioner Garry Mauro, Democrat, investigated in 1992 for political misuse of his agency for Bill Clinton's presidential campaign. Earle found no "conscious pattern of misuse of state property for political or personal purposes."

Speaker Gib Lewis, D-Fort Worth. Pleaded guilty in 1992 of misdemeanor filing of false financial statements. Lewis in 1983 also pleaded guilty to misdemeanor failure to file a financial statement.

San Antonio voter registrar Marco Gomez, Democrat, pleaded guilty in 1992 to tampering with a government record.

State Rep. Charles Staniswallis, R-Amarillo, pleaded guilty to felony theft in 1990.

Attorney General Jim Mattox, Democrat, found innocent by a jury in 1983 on charges of commercial bribery.

NOTE DATE ON STORY BELOW....

DeLay's first line of defense will be to scream that the Democrat Earle is on a partisan witch hunt.

Earle's unsuccessful prosecution of Kay Bailey Hutchison in 1994 for allegations of misappropriated campaign funds while she was State Treasurer will be his Exhibit A, and it will carry some weight.

Earle will point out that he's prosecuted quite a few Democratic politicians in his day, with his biggest scalp being that of former Speaker Gib Lewis.

I will expect much sound and fury, with the usual results. But I'll keep an eye on it anyway, just in case.

Posted by Charles Kuffner on March 22, 2003 to Scandalized! | TrackBack

http://www.offthekuff.com/mt/archives/001715.html

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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
27. They've reduced it to a single charge? Makes it easy to find him innocent.
And to then ignore the other issues.

Whee.
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FlashHarry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
28. Actually, I feel better.
As somebody put it, today's headlines are enough to get the seed of doubt growing in the minds of at least a few soccer moms.

Again, though -- I home this ain't memo-gate, part II.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
31. It looks like Delay made a deal
to take a lesser charge in exchange for who knows what?

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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
32. All organized crime bosses have layers of employees between themselves
and the people who actually commit the specific crimes. This makes it extremely difficult to indict an organized crime boss for a specific crime. DeLay is no different than other organized crime bosses and has structured this part of his criminal enterprise in just that fashion. Criminal conspiracy is probably the only charge against DeLay for which the prosecutor has evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

One other thing to keep in mind is that most, if not all, of the corporations mentioned in the indictment pleaded guilty to other charges and agreed to cooperate with the investigation.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
34. I'll try...
Yes, what you're (we're) hearing from the media and pundits/analysts galore is that the case is 'weak'. So, first consider the source on these snippets of insight.

The reason I think he definitely has strong supporting evidence is...Earle's been burned badly by taking Kay Bailey Hutchinson to trial and she was acquitted. Don't think he would risk doing that again.

Finally, I'm hoping to hear of a gag order on DeLay and his lawyer ASAP. DeLay going on Lou Dobbs, Chris Matthews, various Faux shows, and numerous interviews is an attempt to influence potential jurors. He's making statements and accusations to be heard by as many potential jurors as possible; he's not under oath and is presenting his "story" and a "Democrat hate me" defense without rebuttal.
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