the "invisible war with China" - can Democrats save America?

[welshTerrier2]

we are at a point in this country that "There is a sense that the struggle for the soul of America is gathering pace. There is also suddenly a sense that the American Empire is in decline ..."

the article below is probably the most comprehensive analysis of what's going on in the world I've read this year ... it's very, very long and covers topics like the hurricane, the coming oil war with China, gun control, democracy, revolution, the Patriot Act, US currency and petrodollars and much, much more ... it also gives a very clear picture of what really caused the US to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan and the confrontation we face with "SCO" ...

and scariest of all, it foretells of the ultimate collapse of the great American empire ... DU'ers, if we achieve nothing else, we have got to make our Party and our candidates respond to the desperate situation we're in ... playing it politically safe while Rome is not only burning but about to explode and disappear is just NOT an option ...

we are in a desperate war for our survival and we are allowing oil companies and other mercenary interests to suck the last drop of profits out of us before we fade away ... whether it is too late to react and change our fate remains to be seen ... one thing's for certain though, it is time to awaken the American people to the realities and build a tidal wave of support in this country to overthrow "the evil ones" and retake control of our government ...

please read the whole article even though it's very long ... if we are to be skillful warriors for change, we have got to be well-informed ...

source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050910.wxcover10/BNStory/Front

A few days before Katrina struck, for example, tiny Uzbekistan requested that the United States close its military base in the former Soviet republic and remove its troops within six months. This came just a month after a body called the Shanghai Co-operation Organization (SCO) asked for a timeline for the withdrawal of all U.S. troops in Central Asia.

Originally composed of Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, the SCO was created in 1996, admitted Uzbekistan in June, 2001, and more recently granted observer status to Pakistan and India. Thus, it embraces a quarter of the world's population and dominates the heartland of what Anglo-American strategists used to call the world island. Although the SCO was formed as an economic union, the joint Sino-Russian manoeuvres scheduled for later this year are beginning to make it look more and more like a military one.

It has never been a secret in the Pentagon that U.S. military commanders view China as their ultimate challenge and most dangerous foe since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Indeed, some economic analysts believe that the 2003 invasion of Iraq was prompted by very generous oil concessions given to both China and Russia in deals brokered under the old Baathist regime. And as we have seen, the principles of American capitalism crumble swiftly in the face of a prospect such as that of China buying a majority share in one of the largest U.S. oil companies.

The inability of established powers to adjust to new centres of power emerging, or reemerging, has been the cause of all the bloodiest wars over the past two centuries. Besides losing control of its major companies, the problem of Chinese economic primacy, for the United States, rests in the possibility that China may gain control of the dollar. <skip> the Chinese have been buying dollars and dollar bonds on a massive scale. The worry is that a sudden decision to convert dollar holdings into, say, euros would send the U.S. currency into free fall on international markets.

Before the invasion of Iraq, OPEC apparently was considering whether to start trading in dual currencies, and some economists believe that an announcement like this would send the value of a dollar falling by up to 40 per cent. By gaining control of the Iraqi oil fields —the world's second richest after Saudi Arabia — the United States has effectively prevented an assault on the dollar from that direction.

It was, therefore, convenient at the very least for America to have a reasonably valid reason to attack the country (Afghanistan) and replace its regime with one led by Hamid Karzai, a former consultant with Unocal, the very company wishing to build the pipeline, and, of course, the one the Chinese tried to buy.

[RONSTOO]

1. this is serious stuff

Im surprised nobody has really commented on this.

Im positive this is why were in Iraq.


When the Iranian Oil Bourse opens up next year, the dollar will practically freefall.


The Iranians are in concert with the Chinese which explains the Iranians complete lack of fear and confidence in their bid for an upgraded nuclear program.

Stay tuned.

[converted_democrat]

2. That's a long read, but well worth it. That is some scary shit...n/t

[bonito]

3. Just got through it i think it explains allot

[Donna Zen]

4. The Great Game Redux:

It didn't work then, and it is not working now. "The country with the most oil (resources) wins the war" is the thinking here. It is old century thought just at a time when new thinking is demanded.

The next 20 years of American life will be consumed not only with the war on terrorism. We will be consumed with how we adapt to living in a changing world. For the first time in American history, we're entering a period where we will compete with nations that have larger, more integrated markets than we do. They're not larger in dollars but they are larger in consumers. As they develop economically, they will tip the Law of Scale. In economics, you worry about the Law of Scale over supply and demand. In a country of 1.3 billion people, when those people start buying cell phones you will find that that's where cell phones are manufactured and that's where the technologies are developed. China doesn't have the cultural impediments that affect India, so China is growing at a rapid rate and India is a little further behind.~Wes Clark

[AX10]

5. Very true. But soon enough, India will catch up.

This will make the 'game' even more competitive.

[Donna Zen]

6. Actually he goes on to talk about that:

He said that India is our natural ally in this.

But I only posted this snip because I know that Clark has spoken about America's economic future many times with reference to China. The quotes are scattered about in his talks. In a DC talk he said that the old 19th century thinking no longer fits, meaning the Great Game philosophy upon which PNAC is based. Recently, Clark talked about the Russians and Chinese demanding that we leave Afghanistan. Considering that we are in hawk to the Chinese, we have lost our leverage.

The OP spells out out future if we keep following this same path. I just wanted people to know that there are voices out there who believe that this need not be a race to the bottom.

And it's not one party selling us out. The Chinese trade acts passed under Clinton didn't exactly have any built in equity for Americans either, or human rights, or fair labor practices, or environmental protections.

You know the story about how if you slowly turn up the heat on a frog in a pot of water, the frog gets boiled without jumping. I think that's where we are.

[AX10]

7. I agree that India can be our ally on this.

China is truely problematic.

[Donna Zen]

8. Since you're interested:

This is what he said:

This country was the greatest economic power in the world at the start of the 20th century. Our steel industry, our coal, our iron, our railroads, they all came from foreign investments. After the Civil War, money poured in because European investors like Germany and Britain looked at this country and said, Wow look at the size of that market. How can we not get into the American market?
And now in this country we're looking at China. We're saying, Wow look at the size of that market! How can we not get into that market? And with that size and scale will come new challenges for this country. It will be in the economic sense, the educational sense, and in the military sense.
We need a strategy for this. This strategy will have the following components:

1. A strong base with Europe. We need to strengthen our relations with Europe through NATO.

2. We've got to have strong international institutions. We have a lot of work to do with the United Nations for them to meet the needs that we will put on it over the next 30 years.

3. We need to cultivate and nurture our working relationship with India to produce a balance to China. India after all is the largest democracy in the world.
Here at home we need to move forward with higher quality education, health care that is affordable, environmental regulations to help protect the beauty of our environment so that this is a country that people want to live in years from now, and investments in science and technologies so that we can continue to produce innovative products that will keep us at the forefront economically.

Making a successful strategy a reality will take all of us working together bravely and in the face of adversity. We must remember that nothing less the future and quality of life we leave our children and their children is at stake. I make this call to action because no one man can do all the work needed to make a more secure America. I need your help.

At a talk in DC, he said that we must make permanent friends, and he thinks that the starting point must be with the EU in forming a counter-economic block, one that shares our values. I know that he was against letting China take the lead in the talks with Korea because it gave them leverage over us. Now with this friggin war, the worst strategic geo-political blunder anyone anywhere has ever made, the coming situation is grim. I think that is why he working toward a "soft landing" if one is still possible, because from here on out, all domestic policy is inseparable from foreign policy. A Democratic corporate hawk, or a neophyte without the credentials to buck the trend, will do us no good.

[AX10]

28. Thank you.

That's my Wes!

:dem:

[lostinacause]

20. There are a number of reasons why this was done in the past.

The biggest are because if you produce in a large market you have small transportation costs and no production delays as everything that you need is right there. Skilled labour usually relocates to these areas. You will find that this is happening less and less given lower transportation costs and the ability to communicate over great distances.

[BlueIris]

9. Recommended. Nothing against the Chinese people...

but these issues scare the crap out of me.

[bonito]

10. This should have made it to the greatest page

lacking but 1 vote.

[Gregorian]

11. Does this surprise anyone? It's not sudden.

It's chronic. I think it's as simple as looking at the "Made in China" tags on products. In the early 80's they were starting to appear. By the 90's they were everywhere. With the production capability, combined with their massive population, they'll simply call the cards whenever they have the cash. The quality of their production is still improving. And as it does, so do their profits. I see absolutely no way out of this. And I believe that oil is nowhere near as important a resource as knowledge and cash, which America has little. I mean, that had we taken the money that we so frivolously squandered on Iraq, and invested it in infrastructure, education, and manufacturing, etc., we would have remained a player. Only the future will tell if we have a competitive edge.

Here, have a cool keychain digital camera.

[daninthemoon]

12. My far thinking daughter has already been learning Chinese at

college.

[FrenchieCat]

13. Cool and timely!

My youngest who is 15 years old did her 8th and 9th grade years at a Chinese school and took Mandarin the whole time she was there, and learned Cantonese from her friends! We are not even Chinese, but I guess even at her young age, she knows what's up.

[RONSTOO]

14. China is a very serious issue.

The most important things to do now and I mean immediately :




1. Reduce the deficit. once more : reduce the deficit. Now. So we quit borrowing from the world especially China.


2. Reduce our dependence on foreign oil. I don't care how you do it....just simply do it. Now.



Fuck, it doesnt take a damn genius now does it?

[political_invader]

15. Since President Nixon went into China..

and with him brought the World banks, China has bought up 12% and growing daily of the american debt. Now IMO this is to hold leverage over us with Taiwan, but with China trying to become a major player in the world oil market(attempting to purchase UniCal oil).
Changes everything they are defiantly becoming a world power not just a pawn. On our present course they truly scare the shit out of me.


This article is a must read from Asia Times 9/10/05

http://atimes.com/atimes/China/GI10Ad04.html

edited to add article

[RONSTOO]

16. i have studied the Chinese

they are very smart, their civilzation has been around thousands of years....they think ahead. Do we ? Obviuosly not because they now hold the cards and have us by the short hairs. Nobody will dispute that. we need to be fiscally consrvative and energy conservative.


If you study the Tao you will understand what I mean.

[political_invader]

17. I completely agree with you .. n/t

[welshTerrier2]

18. Americans are not interested in studying the Tao ...

they're only interested in studying the Dow ...

[RONSTOO]

19. from the Tao Tse Ching...

30} The Means of the Way ...

To those who would help
The ruler of men
By means of the Way:
Let him not with his militant might
Try to conquer the world;
This tactic is like to recoil.
For where armies have marched,
There do briars spring up;
Where great hosts are impressed,
Years of hunger and evil ensue.

The good man's purpose once attained,
He stops at that;
He will not press for victory.
His point once made, he does not boast,
Or celebrate the goal he gained,
Or proudly indicate the spoils.
He won the day because he must:
But not by force or violence.

That things with age decline in strength,
You well may say, suits not the Way;
And not to suit the Way is early death.



{31} Weapons at best are tools of bad omen ...
Weapons at best are tools of bad omen,
Loathed and avoided by those of the Way.
In the usage of men of good breeding,
Honor is had at the left;
Good omens belong on the left
Bad omens belong on the right;
And warriors press to the right!
When the general stands at the right
His lieutenant is placed at the left.
So the usage of men of great power
Follows that of the funeral rite.

Weapons are tools of bad omen,
By gentlemen not to be used;
But when it cannot be avoided,
They use them with calm and restraint.
Even in victory's hour
These tools are unlovely to see;
For those who admire them truly
Are men who in murder delight.

As for those who delight to do murder,
It is certain they never can get
From the world what they sought when ambition
Urged them to power and rule.

A multitude slain!- and their death
Is a matter for grief and for tears;
The victory after a conflict
Is a theme for a funeral rite.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{32} The Way eternal has no name ...
The Way eternal has no name.
A block of wood untooled, though small,
May still excel the world.
And if the king and nobles could
Retain its potency for good,
Then everything would freely give
Allegiance to their rule.
The earth and sky would then conspire
To bring the sweet dew down;
And evenly it would be given
To folk without constraining power.

Creatures came to be with order's birth,
And once they had appeared,
Came also knowledge of repose,
And with that was security.

In this world,
Compare those of the Way
To torrents that flow
Into river and sea.

[lostinacause]

21. Good artical. Thanks for bringing it up.

While the individual writing this piece is a little biased (through choice of words), the content in this article is good. America has a tough road ahead especially if attitudes do not change soon.

[RONSTOO]

22. as the Democrats regain power...

...we must be very very smart in geopolitics...our very future depends upon intelligent decisions. We live in a global economy with finite resources which demands crucial decisions in regards to our well being and not knee-jerk, ( words fail me) short-sighted, militaristic, empirical objectives which will put us in league with the Roman Empire. Is it really true as Santana said.."those who dont learn from history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them "


We need each other and if sudden climate change doesnt kill us we will kill ourselves. We as the human species are no better in the chain of life than any of its links.

[Q]

23. The only reason we live in a 'global economy'...

...is because some American politicians made a promise to Big Business that in exchange for large contributions to their perpetual campaigns for office...they wouldn't get in the way of exporting jobs to slave labor overseas. This 'global economy' is nothing more than America ignoring the plight of slave labor so they can shop at Walmart. But what they don't seem to understand is that they're now competing in the same job market and will eventually be forced to work at slave labor wages themselves.

We keep hearing that we have to 'work together'...but how is that possible when the leadership and the rank and file have a different view of what it means to be a Democrat? Democrats don't sell out workers to keep their campaign coffers full. They don't deny Americans health care to please the insurance/pharm industries. And they certainly don't support illegal, aggressive wars in order to keep defense contractors and the energy industries happy.

But this is exactly what's happening as the 'new Democrats join with Bushie Republicans to turn us into a third-world, banana Republic that benefits only the rich.

[Peace Patriot]

24. I agree with your analysis, Q, and I think there is something very basic

that we have to do before anything in our political system can be changed, and that is recovering our right to vote.

In the last election, 80% of the nation's vote was tabulated by two Bushite companies--Diebold and ES&S--using SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code--code so secret that not even our elected secretaries of state are permitted to review it.

More shocking than this is that the TV networks FALSIFIED their own exit polls on everybody's TV screens on election night, altering the exit polls (Kerry won), to fit the "official result" derived from Diebold's and ES&S's secret formulae (Bush won).

And more shocking than either of these things is that the Democratic leadership raised not one word of objection to having a completely non-transparent, unverifiable election, owned and controlled by Bushites, nor to the news monopolies giving out doctored information about the one tool that was available to verify the election--the exit polls.

Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia have corrupted our state/local election officials, with lavish lobbying and future job offers, so that we have even Democratic election officials signing contracts, on behalf of their states or counties, permitting "trade secret" vote tabulation. I think it also suits the War Democrats to have Bush in office, and they didn't particularly want a president who was beholden to an antiwar, grass roots constituency (which Kerry would have been, despite his own half-assed views on the Iraq war)--so they conceded the election, offering no objections to its lack of transparency or partisan control, nor to the egregious violations of the Voting Rights Act that occurred in Ohio.

The solution is simple (to any who really want transparent elections)...

Paper ballots hand-counted at the precinct level (--Canada does it in one day, although speed should not even be a consideration, just accuracy and verifiability)

or, at the least

Paper ballot (not "paper trail") backup of all electronic voting, a 10% automatic recount, strict security, and NO SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code! (...jeez!).


I think our best hope of achieving transparent elections is in the state/local venues, despite the corruption. The power over election systems still resides with the states, where ordinary people still have potential influence. I wouldn't want to see any more meddling by Congress (ye gods! --$4 billion for electronic voting, straight into the pockets of the evildoers at Diebold and ES&S, and thence to Bush/Cheney campaign coffers--a nice loop of taxpayer funds!)

My plan for the future of our country starts with grass roots fights at the local/state level, all over the country, to throw these election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor,' so to speak, and gradually begin electing true representatives of the people. As more truly elected people gain office, and, among other things, act to better insure the integrity of elections, things will slowly get better on all fronts: de-chartering evil corporations, busting the news monopolies, equitable taxation, deconstructing our aggressive military machine (maybe some day it will really be a "defense" department), and improvements in environmental policy, foreign policy and fair trade.

If we stop ACTING badly toward the rest of the world, and curtail some of our worst predators, there is no reason that we cannot, within a generation, start becoming world citizens with a decent life at home and healthy, creative and fulfilling trade and relations abroad.

I am convinced that the majority of Americans are progressive, tolerant, peace-minded, generous people, and CAN be trusted to fulfill the role of sovereign--despite all the abuse they have been subjected to, and the disempowerment and disenfranchisement. (Were you aware that 58% of the American people opposed the war in Iraq BEFORE the invasion? I'll never forget that stat Across the board in all polls. Feb. '03. 58%! In fact, they disapprove of every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic--I've found, studying all the polls--way up in the 60% to 70% range. Disenfranchisement is the word).

We really mustn't presume what Americans think or know from the impressions given in the war profiteering corporate news monopolies. I think we will set things right, eventually--due to our tenacious democratic traditions--if we escape certain perils in the near tide, like global warming, corporate gangsterism and the hatred we have inspired in Iraq. It might not be so bad, in the end, to be on an equitable footing with the rest of the world.

[Totally Committed]

25. I agree with this post, Q...

This part, especially: "But this is exactly what's happening as the 'new Democrats join with Bushie Republicans to turn us into a third-world, banana Republic that benefits only the rich."

No more "New Democrats", no more "Middle Way" Democrats, no more DINOs, NO MORE DLC! -- A real and vital Democratic Party is what is needed now, complete with the moral compass that is missing today!

Resist anyone who tells you that the middle of the road is where the Democrats should be! Take a stand for a real Democratic Party.

TC

[daninthemoon]

26. 100% right! America needs exacting words of conviction from our

democratic leaders. I don't know why we got so far from that these last few years. Seems like it started during Bill Clinton's second term. I don't know if they were too bullied or what, but trying to meet these neocon repugs in the middle is not working now, and can never work. The more our leaders try, the weaker they look, and the more similar to the neocons they look. Americans saw that the realy didn't have two separate choices when it came to "*" vs Kerry. They were two sides of the same coin. Let's give the American people some actual inteligent choices based on good information, and then see what happens. Could actually be a new dawn.

[Donna Zen]

27. Yes, the Democrats made an unholy alliance

And yes, it is all about the money for the DLC and others. Nevertheless, as Benjamin Barber writes, we are in a Global Economy, it is just that the Global Economy has no rules. The corporations are currently operating above the state. That what NAFTA and CAFTA are all about. We, the people must make those rules about human rights, the enviroment, and labor. Until we get people who represent us, who have the knowlege and are willing to exercise political will to fight for the "common good" the goals that we seek will remain but dreams.

Unfortunately, at the moment, I see the forces among the grassroots who are aware of the problems and issues, as fractured. Thus, the crud will rise to the top. Third way politics my ass.

[lostinacause]

29. A global economy is inevidable; America can choose whether or not to

participate. If America chooses not to participate America will start to fall behind other nations and there will be a large loss of capital. Nations who have taken the proper steps such as Canada have faired much better in the global economy. Some of the reasons why Canada has faired much better then America are due to Canadian institutions while others are based on differing situations. Like Canada, other nations have not seen the problems that America is facing. The value of the Euro indicates that Europe handling the new economic reality much better then Americans. The number of nations that are choosing to reduce economic protectionism might give an indication that perhaps there is some validity to free trade and it is not some big corporate conspiracy to keep wages down at the expense of the American worker.

As far as what a Democrat is; you have a right to your opinion on what one is. Keep in mind that someone who doesn't get elected cannot enact change. Also, methods for achieving equality that have worked well in the past may not be the best to use today and better methods for pursuing equality may have been thought up in recent years.

[cire4]

32. Well said....n/t

[Donna Zen]

34. Ignore the uncomfortable and don't mess with mr. in-between:

Benjamin Barber is not saying that we should or can ignore the Global Economy; in fact, he is proposing that by ignoring its reality is what is allowing the multinationals to operate without any governing laws. He is not advocating protectionism, but does point out that the current situation is not working for we the people. A rush to the bottom is not the answer.

As far as what a Democrat is: keep in mind that if the only change that an elected official will work to make, is one that promotes the corporate interests while ignoring the "common good" then the big "D" has lost its meaning.

Would you please be specific about the methods of pursuing equality. I mean, we could all be equal if we were locked in a stadium, but is that desirable?

[lostinacause]

36. I believe the words "slave labour" were used. Countries having different

wages based on their situation is a reality of globalization. My belief is that the current political atmosphere from both parties is preventing America from getting the most from globalization. Thus most of the problems that you and others equate with globalization would be dealt with if American politicians put into place the proper institutions. If you look at how China and India are behaving, it is not a race to the bottom. The ability these nations have at creating human capital is going to give them a promising future.

In a modern economy corporate interests are sometimes those of the common good. Corporations benefit from a highly educated work force, low crime, and institutions that promote efficiency in labour allocation among other thing. These also work to promote increased equality. There are others ways of promoting equality such as decreasing wasted government spending and reassessing spending priorities. The amount of money which America currently spends on military could go to better use especially given that the Bush administration could have saved a substantial amount of money playing the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq correctly. The abuse of social programs could be eliminated making it so that only the people who needed the assistance would get it. There are so many other programs that waste money that I could go on indefinitely just on that topic alone. The legal system also makes operations and therefore employment in America very expensive.

[mrcheerful]

30. Again.............

I've been saying for 5 years now that americans were supporting Chinas military by buying at Wal-Mart and was ignored. You reap what you sow, and you Wal-Mart buyers have sowed america to China, live with that while saving your dollars.

[RONSTOO]

31. see my thread

on China warships..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2086027


see what your Wal-Mart dollars hath wrought ?

[mrcheerful]

35. I understood your thread............

I just put it in terms differentlly after seeing the excuses being made for shopping at Wal-Mart. Being a disabiled american from childhood, I wasn't able to hold down a full time job longer then 3 to 6 months after years of not being abled to get hired. So I'm getting a generous SSdi and SSI check, its under $600 a month. So if I can provide for my family without shopping at Wal-Mart I can't see why no one else can. Sure it means giving up on trying to keep up with the Jones, but I was never much into playing the I have game.

[ladylibertee]

33. That's some scary sh-t dude.No wonder we're trying to get our own