What part of "A northeasterner can't get elected" do people not understand

[digno dave]

Are there any doubts about this? It has vbeen 40 years since a Democrat outside the south was elected president, and it took that man having a person off the set of High Noon as his VP to win.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Thanks. We are stupid.

:eyes:

[MsUnderstood]

8. If only the south can elect a president

Then why do the rest of the states need to vote?

[Cheswick2.0]

36. good question

I think we best cut off elections at the mason dixon line and allow the south to decide. It would save all us dumb northerners the money spent on primaries and we could buy heating fuel for the winter.

[K8-EEE]

109. Yeah I'm Sick Of This Pandering To the South...BIG TIME

I'm starting to think that the Confederates had the right idea. Let the freaking red states have their own country, I'm sick of living with their stupid decisions, and I don't want my kids paying for them. If southern people are really that stupid that they will vote for Bush who DUH is from a rich NE family btw JUST BECAUSE OF BEING CLANISH AND PREJUDICED OF THE REST OF US, then fuck them.

I may be biased as a CA native but I think we can do without the likes of Mississippi easier than the other way round.

[Lurking Dem]

120. Ain't dat sweet.

Bless your heart.

[Cassandra]

137. Maybe Southern Dems...

can huddle in one of the coastal states and then we can cut the rest loose. ;-) Which part of the coast looks good to you?
Seriously, to those of us in the North, we take a huge amount of grief from the bigots in the South, who now prefer the Repukes anyway. You may find that too sweeping a comment, but in the Northeast, we hear constantly that we shouldn't bother putting forward a candidate because the South will not accept them. Why the hell not? (Can you tell I'm feeling a bit irked right now?)
No disrespect intended for the Southern Democrats on this board.

[Lurking Dem]

141. Cassandra.....

All joking aside, you think y'all get grief from "bigots in the South"? Try livin' down here for awhile.

Thread after thread of how we don't matter or we don't count or we're all racists or we're all Republicans in Dems clothing, ad nauseum. Even when racial beatings, police shootings, gay killings, etc. are going on all the time up North and in the West. It's tiresome.

The fact of the matter is there is very little difference between the regions of the U.S. anymore. We've all been Californicated into one big frickin' strip mall Americana. Easily half the people I meet here are transplants. Yes, we still have issues (like kids having to start school in August so they don't have to be given Memorial Day as a holiday) and it is often difficult to be a Jew here. But we also have a huge, largely Democratic, African American population, a growing and politically reachable Latino population, working women, tree huggers, etc., etc.

A Northerner with vision, a Yankee with a message, a person who can articulate understanding and intelligence along with an ability to get things done can win in the South. A Southerner without those things cannot win in the South. It's a style issue not a societal one.

[Cassandra]

143. Sorry, LD

I guess we spend too much time listening to RW Southerners. You definitely have my sympathy. BTW, NYC is being "malled" as well.

[Lurking Dem]

149. But you have real bagels.

And delis. You have Kosher delis. And CHOCOLATE FRICKIN' EGG CREAMS! What about THOSE? HUH?!?!? HUH?!?!?!?

Ah. Sorry. I got all verklempt.

[Cassandra]

181. Real bagels are barely hanging on by their crusts

They keep getting slightly larger and slightly fluffier. We do still have Kosher delis. As for the egg creams, as long as you have Fox's U-Bet, you too can make egg creams. So I send you this link so that you can order some if you want.
http://www.hometownfavorites.com/
We can still get it in the glass jar but they seem to be switching over to plastic. Just as well, as the syrup really dribbles down the side of the jar.
There, there, have some chicken soup. :-)

[Lurking Dem]

186. I'm sobbing here!

Cut that out!

I can get U-Bet but the deal is I have type 1 diabetes and, like pork and shellfish are Kosher at a Chinese restaurant, chocolate egg creams are calorie free in a deli!

We have one decent deli in town (Noshville), not Kosher but they fly stuff in from NY every day. Sadly, they are a tad far from where I live. Although my hips are grateful.

[Skidmore]

187. I plead ignorance...

what the heck is an egg cream?

[Lurking Dem]

188. It's a chocolate ice ceam soda

without the chocolate ice cream.

Ice cold glass, ice cold spoon, ice cold milk, seltzer water, and Fox's Chocolate Ubet syrup. Fill the glass 1/3 with milk (rest spoon in glass), fill slowly with seltzer until white foam is just below the rim. Add syrup and stir well - the foam at top should stay white.

No eggs. No cream. I have no idea how it got its name.

[SharonAnn]

154. I wish that were true. But here, religion and guns and racism seem

to be the big items and they are OWNED by the Republicans.

People are out of work, they didn't get much in Federal tax cuts, the funding for the already bad schools was cut, property taxes are up, but they plan to vote Republican. God told them to.

Go figure.

[Lurking Dem]

167. I'm in TN as well.

But from what I have found on my journeys, religion, guns, and racism are everywhere. Republicans foment this crap and the sheeple gobble up the regurgitated bile.

SOME people are starting to realize that their wallets are fatter with Dems in office. The Bible thumpers wouldn't vote for a Dem if he walked on water and turned their 2% to wine. But there is a lot more to the South than the Bible thumper/Confederate flag waving Bubba.

[kath]

182. LurkingDem, so what's the deal with Memorial Day and the south?

Do they consider that a yankee holiday or somethin'?

[Lurking Dem]

185. Yes it is a Yankee holiday.

It was originally a celebration holiday of victory over the Rebels.

[adadem]

43. Exactly

That candidates believe they have to tailor themselves to the attract the Southern vote is outrageous. We may as well change the name to United States of Hypocracy.

[digno dave]

73. facts, not ideology

missing the point, folks. I didn't say that it is right or the way it should be. It's simple mathematics with the electoral college.

[youngred]

78. Not so much actually

without winning a single 'southern' state its possible to win the presidency. However, one needs to win the middle states, which is something that Gore had trouble with in 2000

[Trajan]

84. OK ....

SHOW this 'simple mathematics' ...

If you are so sure, then it should be no problem to display the evidence now ....

[hatrack]

115. In electoral vote terms, it's really pretty simple

Start with the states Gore won in 2000, then add Missouri. That's it, and Missouri is most definitely in play this year.

D - 271
R - 267

Incidentally, there's a handy interactive EV map you can fool around with at:

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/map/

[Trajan]

124. wasnt asking you ...

I figured YOU had the answer ....

[youngred]

131. Gore also lost Ohio and New Hampshire, which aren't southern states

so add to that and oops you've passed 273

[Snivi Yllom]

76. LOL

clearly we don't get it. ROFL

[David Zephyr]

107. LOL With Snivi Yllom!

[David Dunham]

2. Dukakis Would Have Won If He Had Defended Himself

John Kerry is no Dukakis. Kerry knows he needs to defend himseld against every Bush charge, just as Clinton did.

[Frodo]

51. Sorry, no. Dukakis did not lose by "different strategy" kind of numbers.

The gap was not along the lines of different debate strategy or hair style. That was a massive loss that said "the people want the other guy more than me".

2000 was the kind of race where we can debate what might have brought Tennessee into the fold, or whether a "sigh" in a debate might have cost .25%, or if Gore "defended" our beliefs well enough.

Lets HOPE Kerry "is no Dukakis" in ways beyond mere strategy.

[LuminousX]

3. So we are to always be held captive by the South?

I say we need to stand up to them and tell them that their interests do not take a necessary priority to the rest of the nation.

[forgethell]

10. Telling them that their concerns

do not match those of the rest of the nation is sure-fire way to get them to see and admit their mistakes, all right. go for it, but do not be surprised when they vote Repuke, anyway.

[LuminousX]

20. Who said they don't match, I'm saying they aren't greater than the rest

[forgethell]

133. They say

they don't match. Check the stats on almost any issue.

[cindyw]

41. Here, Here. There are plenty of Dems in the south who's interests are the

same as those of people all over the country. Dems there with wins in the midwest, northeast, southwest and in the northwest,....will be just fine!

[Terwilliger]

4. digno?

is that Italian for dingo?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

5. Northeastern being code for Liberal, right?

[corporatewhore]

111. well not just liberal bu elitist establishment wealthy aloof aristocratic

ivy leaguer Thats what i think of when i think of the New England area as i am sure yall think of the south as racist hillbilly and uneducated

[Cassandra]

138. No, sometimes I think of...

elitist, establishment, wealthy, aloof, aristocratic plantation (or industrial farm) owners and Southern business leaders who push Right-to Work laws and keep workers from unionizing and protecting their own interests. Not every idea that emanates from the North is bad for Southerners.

[sangh0]

6. I am very susceptible to fact-free arguments

so please, do go on

[Nederland]

12. The facts are there

you just aren't listening.

[bowens43]

28. What facts?

I haven't seen them , please post them.

[Nederland]

40. Here you go

I'll spoon feed it to you.

FACT: It has been 40 years since a Democrat outside the south was elected president.

This is a fact. Sure, it doesn't mean that a non-southern Democrat can't become President, but right now its the only fact anyone has placed on the table. The ball is in your court to demonstrate why this fact is irrelevant.

[jsw_81]

54. A few facts for you:

When Jimmy Carter ran in '76, it had been over 120 years since someone had been elected president from the deep South. But he won.

When the first George Bush ran in '88, it had been over 150 years since an incumbent vice president had been elected president. But he won.

And Bill Clinton was the first sitting governor to be elected president in 60 years.

So don't tell us that a New Englander "can't win" just because it hasn't happened in a while. We've elected several New England presidents in the past, including John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Franklin Pierce, Calvin Coolidge, and John Kennedy. It's about time we had another!

[indigo32]

66. Nice

:thumbsup:

[Nederland]

89. At last

A person who has sense enough to respond to facts with facts. Thank you.

Now if you can explain what states Kerry wins to cinch the EC I'm a believer.

[sistersofmercy]

122. Whamo! Great rebuttal!

:toast:

[mdmc]

130. Well reasoned, but

Can't you conceed that Kerry would be more electable if he represented Georgia instead of Mass?

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

172. Umm, Dean isn't conservative

Kerry and Kennedy are great Senators.

[sangh0]

62. Now find a relevant fact, Nederland

The country has changed a little in the last 40 years.

[grytpype]

7. Were any of those northeasteners running against G. Duhbya?

Because I don't remember that.

[sallyseven]

13. The country is sick of the Conservative morons

They are ready for progressives. Health Care, SS, Medicare, the dollar, fair trade, That is the progressive story. Kerry - Edwards

[Nederland]

44. Spoken like a person

...who has only liberal friends.

[MsUnderstood]

14. Is Tenn considered a southern state?

Is Tenn a southern state?

And if it is, isn't Gore from that state?

And if he is doesn't that mean that we can't elect a southern guy either?

And if thats true doesn't that mean that we can't elect a democrat?

And if thats true doesn't that mean we don't need to vote?

[janx]

9. So U.S. presidents always have to come from "the south"?

?
:crazy:

[Phelan]

106. all Dems since JFK have

[digno dave]

123. west, midwest, south, southwest, ne bootstrap demo

Duh, no.

[Bill McBlueState]

11. this is insulting to Southerners, isn't it?

What you said is certainly the conventional wisdom, and appears to have a lot of truth to it.

But when people say this, they're saying people from other parts of the country will ignore regionalism and pay attention to a candidate's vision and policy stances. People from the South, however, have to be appeased by having someone who resembles them in some way, or so the argument goes.

As a Northeasterner, maybe I'm missing some other element to this argument, but the whole premise seems to be insulting to Southerners.

[IADEMO2004]

35. I second that .

[SharonAnn]

159. I used to agree but now I live here.

Conservative Southerners insist on being catered to. They keep saying it's a "values" thing. I'm so tired of hearing "our values", "southern values", "Tennessee values" when what they mean is greed of the rich, racism, bigotry, intolerance, and anti-intellectualism.

There are, of course, some Southern progressives but often even the Democrats are conservative (think Zell Miller).

[forgethell]

134. I think

you have something here. Still, the South does think a little differently about most of the issues than the Northeast does.

[youngred]

15. George HW Bush and George W Bush

Both Northeasterners who won* the presidency

*won meaning attained the office

[adriennel]

16. this is total BS

Why must we hear this over and over? If the situation was reversed, and we were repeatedly stating "what part of 'a southerner can't get elected'do people not understand?", there would be outrage.
Where is the outrage from Northerners?

Lastly:
-our current President is by birth a Northeasterner, along with his father, which you seem to have forgotten in your "40 years" quote.
-I do believe JFK is still one of our most popular Presidents.

[digno dave]

79. oh boy

Dubya is as much a Northeasterner as Pat Robertson is a Hindu.

[HereSince1628]

17. hahahahahahah!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahh!

Don't take that as laughing with you!

[underpants]

18. Uh who is in the White House right now?

I know this is a matter of perception through spin but W was born in New Haven Conn. July 6th, 1946. He went to San Jiacinto Jr. high school for one year and then went to Williams Prep School in Amherst Mass then Yale then Harvard. He made occassional trips back to Midland but he mainly summered in Kennebunktport, HE IS A NORTHEASTERNER!!!!!!!

[Monte Carlo]

23. Bingo. GWB is a Connecticut Yankee re-made as a Texan.

Because that was the image he needed.

The Bush family is from New England. Bush Sr. himself was born in Milton, MA. Their family compound is in Kennebunkport, ME. Bush Jr. grew up in CT.

A northerner can't win? One's in the White House right now!

[underpants]

34. Molly Ivins:How can you tell the Bush family entry in a chili cook-off?

It's the one with Maine Lobster in it.

The actual joke includes in the "texas legislatures chili cook-off" but that wouldn't fit in the subject line.

[digno dave]

80. remade a southerner

Exactly, "remade". And a job well done.

[SoCalDem]

92. He's a Fake.. I have lived in Panama, but I am not a Panamanian

He's a Yankee, masquerading as a Texan.. They should use that in ads..


cue kiddie music:
* in prep school get up
* in his "military uniform" (as a young man)
* in his cheerleader suit
* in the baseball get up
* in his "ranch outfit"
* in the Chinese medallion jacket
* in a business suit
* in the flight suit
and finally in the clown suit with the corporate logos..


Voice over...

He tells us he's a Texan, but we all know how he likes to play "dress-up"..

He is from the Northeast...Connecticut and Maine, to be exact..

Do you want him playing pretend with our country for 4 more years??

[digno dave]

94. Perception is everything in politics

He' only a fake if he is perceived as one.

[aquart]

27. No, he's a thief.

In this case, the idiot premise holds true: the person actually elected by the American people was Al Gore, the southerner.

And you know that very well.

[underpants]

31. Notice I didn't say "Elected"

I just asked who was IN the White House

[jsw_81]

55. And don't forget...

His "Texan" father was born in Massachusetts.

[JohnKleeb]

19. prove it

I know about Dukakis, but who are these other northeasterners who lost, Dukakis as another poster points out would have won if he had stood up for himself. Personally, northeast and midwest dems are generally the best IMO. I am a Virginian, have no preferences on where the guy is from.

[aquart]

21. Yes, there is doubt.

You see, a lot of southerners are out of work and George proposes to bring in cheap labor from Mexico.

In this election, the vote is AGAINST George.

This isn't the America of the past 40 years. This is America being destroyed by the greediest criminals we've ever seen, and I'm including Teapot Dome.

So, vote to drown in debt, or vote to grab that floating spar.

[mmonk]

22. I don't buy it

and I'm fom the south.

[Davis_X_Machina]

24. 'Not Southern' = 'Not Really American'.

I bitterly resent Maine never having been a slave-holding state.

My children can't aspire to be president as a result.

[bowens43]

25. That's ridiculous.

Dean or Kerry can easily beat bush.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

26. So you want to be like Canada where the PM must always be a Quebecker?

because we love that so much here.

[On the Road]

29. What Part of Kennedy and Roosevelt Do You Not Understand?

[dolstein]

49. What part of Great Depression and Missile Gap do you not understand?

Yeah, I suppose that if unemployment were at 30%, the voters just might turn to a liberal Democrat from the Northeast. But I don't consider that a realistic scenario.

As for Kennedy, he was no liberal. He ran to the right of Nixon on foreign policy. And he certainly wasn't trusted by people like Adlai Stevenson and Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Gman]

30. There are 2 guys from Texas as "president" and "vp"

right now. (Don't say Cheney is from Wyoming because he hauled ass from Texas up to Wyoming to register to vote when it looked like he was going to get the VP nod on the ticket. For all practical purposes there are two guys from Texas in the WH now.)

Kennedy was a fluke in that 1) Nixon looked terrible on TV during the debates and 2) Kennedy had the Catholic vote 3) Kennedy had that "Camelot" mystique.

None of the NE guys have anything like this to their advantage this time. The rest of the country outside the NE flat won't vote for someone from the NE.

Anyone outside the NE would understand this.

[_Jumper_]

32. We can win without the South

The Southwest and Midwest are where the election will be decided, not the South.

[dolstein]

46. Only theoretically -- I, for one, want a real victory

NT

[elsiesummers]

33. While I generally agree with your premise,

you could say it in a more congenial, less negative way.

On Dukakis (maybe three or four posts down) would suggest that his problem was not simply not fighting back, but that he was short and too ethnic (name and eyebrows) to go over well in the South.

Appearance is Joe Lieberman's biggest problem IMO - not his hawkishness or rightiousness.

John Kennedy was elected.

I think a North Eastern candidate with a leading man appearance and style and a working class background would have a shot.

John Kerry doesn't fit that bill, unfortunately. His military background and his height helps him some, his craggy face and middle name "Forbes" hurts him. We'll see.

Edwards and Clark are better candidates - and Gephardt was a better candidate - though Gephardt might have been Doled.

[HereSince1628]

37. Gee no responses from the thread's originator, what's that mean?

I guess we've been entertained. Frankly, I needed that. Waiting for someone like Drudge to slip us early exit polling is really boring.

[digno dave]

83. 9-5er

Sorry, i am trying to work here.

[mrgorth]

38. What part of

we won't win any of the confederate states anyway don't you understand?

[RobinA]

39. I Have Doubts

about this, because I have yet to see an explaination of why this would be the case. Are you saying that Southerners won't vote for anybody who isn't from the south?

[HereSince1628]

48. I think it's safe to say that DD has no interest in engaging in a

dialogue.

What can I say? His argument is well not good, but to put it in terms he might understand "All hat and no cattle" or "I never seen a goat so weak east of Junction."

[digno dave]

87. WORKING HERE

Once again. I am working over here. I am trying to "engage" when i get a chance.

[digno dave]

86. Gore didn't win one southern state

Uh, none of the southern states voted for the dem candidate FROM the south in the 2000 election.

[matcom]

42. The Dingo Ate My Brain!

:eyes:

[digno dave]

88. defensive DUers

Gee, i thought i was expressing a common sentiment among a lot of Dems. Unfortunately my brothers and sisters from the NE are sensitive to the point of insulting a fellow LIFELONG democrat. Just so you know, i wear my political opinions on my sleeve down here in Fort Dubya, TX. It's not an easy thing to do but i do it with pride and conviction.
One look at the electoral map in the last 5 elections proves my point. Granted, there are exceptions, but I would rather rely on a proven theory than an exception when it comes to the future of this country and my livelihood. I sure as hell don't think a limo liberal like Kerry will be the one to buck this trend.
Why so defensive? I wasn't insulting your part of the country. Gauging from your viscious replies it seems like there is sense of anger projection going on. The sooner you folks realize the inherent truth in my statement the better off we all will be.

[library_max]

93. I'm a Texan too.

And the "inherent truth" in your statement is a figment of your imagination. By the way, Gore did win a southern state - he won Florida.

[digno dave]

95. reality check

Sorry, i'll refer to things other than historical precedent next time i try to make a point.

[library_max]

132. Check out message #58 re: "historical precedent" /nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

102. Trends don't have to be set in stone

There is no reason to think a Northeastern or Northwestern candidate can not win just because there's been a tendency to elect Southern presidents for a while now.

Things change. That can certainly be one of them.

[matcom]

103. viscious replies ????

angry???

lol

not angry or viscious at all! i get angry and viscious when i read something that angers me. not when i read something that is unfounded and rediculous!

silly

[digno dave]

108. unfounded? Karl Rove School of Denial

I guess historical precedent doesn't qualify as a substantive example when proving a point.

[matcom]

112. you didn't insult 'my part of the country'

especailly since i am a transplant from an Atlantic State. so glad you chose to capitalize LIBERAL in your post to make sure we ALL knew you were.

"Limo Liberal"????

hhhmmmmmmmm

THAT is the term that is 'suspect' to me frankly. i have heard that NUMEROUS times before (on national talk radio i believe). NUMEROUS times.

see ya at the voting booth :hi:

[digno dave]

117. unclear

"capitalize LIBERAL"???

[matcom]

129. just gald you made it DAMN clear whose 'side' you were on

that's all :)

[dolstein]

45. Correction: A liberal northeastern Democrat from the patrician class

I'm not willing to say that NO Democrat from the Northeast could ever get elected president, but it's pretty difficult, especially if they're a limousine liberal.

People forget that JFK was NOT from the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. The liberal wing backed Adlai Stevenson and/or Hubert Humphrey in 1960. JFK was in the center, between the liberal and the Southern wings of the party. JFK cemented his centrist image by selected LBJ, a Texan, as his running mate.

In addition, JFK was running against a pretty liberal Republican. Although Nixon wasn't as liberal as Nelson Rockefeller, he adopted much of Rockefeller's platform as his own. And he selected a liberal Republican as his running mate.

Frankly, it was a close call as to which of the tickets -- Kennedy/Johnson or Nixon/Lodge was the more liberal.

[oasis]

47. Before Kennedy , no Catholics could be elected.

[dolstein]

60. How many Catholics have been elected SINCE Kennedy?

That's a serious question, by the way.

[ieoeja]

69. None

But then have any run (and survived in a nod to Bobby)?

[mkultra]

50. what part of

"There is a first time for everything" do you not understand. That would apply doubly of it weren't for the fact that its happened before. This is as ridiculous as saying that the mets will never win another world serious because its been so long. everyday is a new day.

I'm still voting for Edwards though but not because i live my life by sudostatistics.

[jsw_81]

52. No offense, but I'm sick of being held hostage by the conservative South

New England has our country's finest universities, a highly-educated populace, vibrant, progressive cities, and spectacular scenery. It's about time we got a president from that part of the country. And if the South doesn't like it, too bad. What are they going to do, secede? They tried that once and it didn't work out too well.

Remember everyone, Gore/Lieberman won in 2000 without a single Southern state; the South isn't nearly as "crucial" as many would have us believe.

[youngred]

56. but by losing WV, Tenn and Florida (officially but not really)

Gore/Lieberman still lost...it should have never been that close

[Stargleamer]

59. Without a single southern state?

Remember, Gore did win Florida, the most populated state in the South.

[jsw_81]

61. Yeah, but Florida isn't really considered a southern state

Even though it is the most southern state geographically, only northern Florida is considered southern. And southern Florida is really quite northern. So a northern candidate like Kerry would do well in the south and fare poorly in the north. Are you confused yet?

[library_max]

77. Texas is the most populous state in the South. /nt

[PROGRESSIVE1]

67. Thank You. As a Northeasterner, I am sick and tired of hearing about..

the damn south. "Southern Pride"??? What "Pride"??? The Confederacy, slavery, bigots, jingoistic country "music"??? Intolerance!!! The south is it's own victim. They voted for economic policies that hurt them and they have gotten screwed over the last thirty years and they deserve it. Outsource all of their jobs to India, at least they are hard working, and let the Zell Millers of the world try to survive without work!

If the Northeast is "elitist" then the Southeast is "Racist'!

Why should this one part of the country or any one part control the rest of it???

:puke:

[Hoosier Democrat]

53. George W will sweep the South in November

The South is a conservative region. hence, they will vote for a conservative candidate. We MAY pick off Florida, but that is demographically a Northern state stuck in the South. Plus, we have to deal with even MORE chicanery from the BFEE who will be desperate to hold the state.

Even Al Gore, a Southerner, did not win ANY Southern states. I don't see Edwards winning any this year if he's the nominee.

We need to focus our attention on the "Swing States" that we narrowly lost in 2000: Ohio, Arizona, West Virginia, Missouri, Nevada, and New Hampshire. This is where 2004 will be won or lost.

[underpants]

57. WV and Va. are definitely in play

Virginia actually elected a Dem as Governor in 2001 all the Dem nominee has to do is follow his game plan. Focus not on Richmond & NoVa (Dem) or worry about Hampton Roads/the Beach (Rep) -though Kerry or Clark could do real damage there-but focus on the Va. NC border. Especially the far western part of Va. Going along the border gives you the ability to campaign in TWO states almost at the same time and those areas get almost no attention. It worked for Warner.

WV is in play. Relatives are not happy with W and they supported him in 2000, very middle of the road types too.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

68. Ruy Tiexera has argued that the Democratic majority will be....

from the Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, Mid-West, West Coast, Hawaii, the Southwest, and the middle states such as Ohio and Missouri.

The south is a lost cause in every single way.

But still, we can win Florida, Louisiana, Arkansas, and West Virginia.

:dem:

[library_max]

58. So with the last forty years of electoral history as your infallible guide

you are here to tell us that no one can possibly get elected president who isn't from Massachusetts, Texas, California, Georgia, Connecticut, or Arkansas? That leaves us with Kerry, Lieberman, and Clark, right?

[GalleryGod]

63. Hel-lo, Mr. #76! Who's Campaign HQ's are YOU blogging From?

:wtf: Self-serving drivel.
Abysmal logic. Deplorable conclusion

D not even a George Bush D+
Just a "D"

Your Man in the Faculty Lounge:donut: Gettin' the Sophs into Teddy White!

G.G.:smoke:

[BootinUp]

64. Can I add "UNINSPIRING" to that?

With regards to Kerry. I give him a very low chance of winning in the GE.

[zulchzulu]

72. Uninspiring if you don't know the difference or do your homework

Kerry is a little more dimensional than Clark, imo.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

65. Silly.

Before JFK (a northeasterner) was elected, no Catholic had ever been elected President. According to your logic, no Catholic ever could have been.

[ieoeja]

71. Does "curu" mean "son of"?

n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

74. No it means 'skill'

You would that, think since Curufinwe's father was Finwe, but no.

[zulchzulu]

70. To be honest, I'm a little tired of southern presidents

Johnson, Carter, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II...

There are other parts of the US that need to be represented...

[Anaxamander]

85. Bush I?

Coulda sworn he was a Connecticuter.

[ieoeja]

75. Ironic considering Gore would have won had he only won ...

... New Hampshire in the general election. So you could just as easily say it was Gore's inability to carry this northeastern state that cost him the election.

In the meantime, Republican insiders keep referring to Arizona, not any southern state, as the make-or-break state.

[bigtree]

81. What part of 'wedge politics' don't you understand?

[calimary]

82. The part that dictates Thou Shalt Remain Hostage to the South.

I, for one, am SICK OF IT!

I posted before, here, about this.

Just because you're from the South doesn't give you an automatic entitlement to the Oval Office, anymore than it does if you're a bush.

In fact, I think the South has had MORE THAN ITS SHARE of time in the Oval Office. It's time for somebody else's turn. We've all seen plenty, good and bad, of what people from the South can do. But THEY'VE HAD THEIR TURN. AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. ENOUGH!!!

And frankly, this CALIFORNIAN is sick of hearing about how the South has so much numerical power and electoral votes and population and blah-blah-blah. I'm from CALIFORNIA. THE BIGGEST STATE IN THE UNION, population-wise, electoral vote-wise, congressional delegation-wise, income-wise, and more. Those, especially those bush-lovers, who say "don't mess with Texas" will get a mouthful from me, starting with "I'm from California, I'm a lot bigger, stronger, richer, more famous, better-looking, healthier, and more forward-thinking than you. I'll mess with Texas any ol' damn time I feel like it." Speaking of course, collectively. I myself am NOT many of those things.

I am tired of hearing about how the South always has to be appeased, coddled, groveled in front of, and "serviced" for anything to fly, politically. The South has given us the bushes, Trent Lott, Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms, Tom DeLay, Newt Gingrich, Don Nickels, the Hutchinson brothers, Ted Olsen, Haley Barbour, the Arkansas Project, Ralph Reed, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, KKKarl Rove, Lee may-he-rest-in-distress Atwater, the KKK, Bob Jones University, Lee Greenwood and that obnoxious song, and Toby Keith. That's just for starters.

It's high time we gave another part of the country a piece of the pie. Doesn't even have to be California. We foisted Reagan and Arnold and Darrell Issa on everybody, which is beyond enough for awhile, and I'll be the first to apologize for them.

Granted, Clinton, Gore, Clark, and Edwards are also from the South and yes I could/can/will support either of the last two if it comes to that. But it's because of their ideas and stated plans, NOT because they're from the almighty South. Even though I realize I'll HAVE to think strategically about it, and that some of my support for people is inevitably and forcibly tied to "how they'll do in the South." A necessary evil I wish to heaven we didn't have to put up with.

To you Southerners in DU, my apologies. No chops aimed at you. It's just so doggone frustrating, sometimes!!!

[digno dave]

90. i feel you

I understand what you are saying. My statement was simply based on historical precedent, not personal sentiments.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

91. Thankyou!

[ulysses]

97. oh hell.

To you Southerners in DU, my apologies.

I live here and it annoys the crap out of me too. No apologies needed.

on edit - added "too" for clarity.

[calimary]

100. Even so, one is offered anyway.

I do NOT mean to diss my Southern brethren and sistren (?) here on DU. But JEEZ! This South-must-lead mentality sucks the big one. You guys, on the other hand, do NOT.

on edit - almost forgot, Molly Ivins, Jim Hightower, Jimmy Carter and the Allman Brothers are also from the South.

[ulysses]

101. I never thought you were dissing southerners period, much less

DUers in the south. :)

[skippysmom]

128. thanks calimary

[ieoeja]

96. Which Gore states do you predict Dem will Lose?

I predict Kerry or Dean would take Arizona from Bush. Which state(s) do you predict Bush will take away to counter this?

This assumes Ohio goes for Bush a second time in a row. If Ohio swings back, Bush needs to take away two or more states.

And I'm ignoring Nevada for now since it will not alone make the difference and yet is almost certain to swing to the Democrat following Bush's 11th hour lie in 2000 vis-a-vis Yucca Mt.

[windansea]

98. there is an 800 lb gorilla in the room

It's possible that with the wrong Dem candidate California may be in play...

[curlyred]

99. you actually think Bush* is a Southerner?

Dang. You must've had a different geography teacher than I did. Maybe he lived in Texas for a few years, but he's as Ivy-league as they come. Good Lord.

[funkyflathead]

104. He lived in Texas only 2 years

As governor he was a resident of Oklahoma somehow, I think. I might be wrong.

[Silverhair]

119. You are indeed wrong.

W's family moved to Texas when W was two years old. He went to public school in Midland until he was 12 when the family moved to Houston. There he went to a local private school until he was sent to Andover at age 14.

He did NOT have a Oklahoma citizenship while he was governor of Texas. I am a Texan, and I can state that with authority.

That does not mean that I like him, but to say that he was only here a couple of years is BS.

[digno dave]

110. perception

Perception trumps reality in politics, i'm afraid.

[eissa]

105. Do repukes pander to northerners?

Did the south win the civil war? Aren't we supposed to be one country? People who are bigoted enough to vote on a person based on what state they are from are most likely repukes anyway. Those who vote with their heads and think of their interests will vote with us.

[digno dave]

114. region matters, unfortunately

If you think region doesn't affect voters you are mistaken. It's wrong but it's true.

[skippysmom]

127. Not so much up here

Other "damn yankees" can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't hear anyone in the Northeast saying that they won't vote for Clark or Edwards or Kucinich because they're not New Englanders. And Lieberman hasn't exactly bowled people over up here despite being from Connecticut.

Most of the South won't vote for the Dem no matter where he's from. Which is why, with resources limited, whoever the candidate is will have to pick and choose his or her fights. There are certainly some battleground states in the south, no question. But some states will be written off as a lost cause, no pun intended.

That being said, I'm not sure the candidate needs to kiss the south's ass in order to win. There are 11 states in the former confederacy -- and 39 that aren't. Yeah, I know that the south is growing in population while New England is shrinking. But right now, the south is not the only game in town.

I haven't decided on a candidate yet, but I hope to find someone with broad appeal -- not only to the south, but to the country as a whole.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

136. I never think of where a candidate is from either-doesn't matter

I wish the South would just stop fighting the Civil War. It would be like us hating the British because they fought the Revolution in my backyard and killed some of my ancestors.

I am sick of being held hostage by the South. I think the Dems should work on some of the larger Midwestern states that swung to Bush in the last election.

Again, there is a double-standard on DU. DUers freely use the term "elitist", which is a code word for Northeast Urban liberal. But if you use the term "redneck", prepare to be flamed.

[goodhue]

113. got me

I have little doubt about it.

[retyred]

116. The South Rules!

retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[TexasSissy]

118. Kennedy? His dad got him elected.

With a few mob connections. And he narrowly squeaked by a win. The Repubs have always thought that that election was really a Repub win. Gore 2000 was payback.

[AntiCoup2K4]

155. The 'pukes "paid back" JFK in Dallas.

They still assassinate their opponents - just less messy these days.

[Silverhair]

121. It's not just the south. New England politicians aren't popular

in the Great Plains states or the Rocky Mountain states either.

[tedoll78]

125. Add me to the list of southerners who say: **** the South.

If my neighbors want to vote like imbeciles, let them. And then watch with amusement when they cry about their children consistently placin 47, 48, 49, and 50th in school score percentiles. And watch when they bemoan the fact that they have the highest teen pregnancy rates, and higher-than-average rates of spousal abuse, poverty, etc.

There are plenty of other states by which we can reach 270. Ohio, West Virginia, Arizona, New Hampshire, Missouri, & Nevada are all waiting for our attention.

Meanwhile, our nominee fakes an effort in Florida, Louisiana, Tennessee, & Arkansas. Show video of workers supposedly covering neighborhoods, telephone banks, etc.

[SharonAnn]

165. Yes, have tokeep the Repugs busy and spending money in

those states so they can't take their money and resources and go gang up on our guy where it might make a diffference.

[bushwakker]

126. That ends in November

[ramapo]

135. It's about time we had a Northerner

[digno dave]

139. biased voter

can you say regional bias???

[Kathy in Cambridge]

140. Why must we always pander to one region-the South?

Hmmm?

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

148. Please explain what you mean by your statements?

What exactly do we give minorities?

[CertusLaurus]

151. Since my message was misunderstood and deleted.........

I will just paraphrase and say that the party should focus less on "group" issues and more on "American" issues. And no, they are NOT the same thing. When we speak in terms of group identity, we alienate everyone who doesn't belong to that group- they tune out the message.

Dean has been doing a better job than most of not letting a vocal minority (that's "minority" as in less-than-majority, not as in the various ethnic groups) dictate his agenda. That is they type of campaign that will attract ALL Americans, regardless of what group they are in.

[digno dave]

189. uh

so we can get elected, that's why.

[flaminbats]

142. Interesting....

that's how F.D.R. felt when considering a southern running mate in 1944.
from Truman (pg. 297)... Sam Rayburn was a good man, Flynn and Roosevelt agreed, but Rayburn was from Texas, another southerner, and so "couldn't be considered." When they went through the list of the entire Senate, only one fitted the picture, Harry Truman.

[genius]

144. FDR, JFK

I guess we should have their names removed from former Presidents. Incidentally, FDR did it four times, twice more than anyone else.

[Jerseycoa]

145. The VP would need to bring balance

to any Northeasterner's ticket. JFK/LBJ, for example. I'm not sure it even has to be Southerner. Lower Midwesterners do have a comfort level with Southerners and Southwesterners. I could see a Kerry/Gephardt ticket, for example, nullifying some of the N/E negatives and boosting a Northern strategy at the same time.

[CertusLaurus]

146. You mean being Dukakis's Lieutenant Gov. won't seal the deal?...........

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Say it aint so!

Until Ted Kennedy finally goes away, the thought of a Mass. Democrat as President will send Americans running to the right.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

150. Ted Kennedy is my Senator and has done a GREAT job

fighting for the middle-class and poor. What part of that makes you want him to go away?

[CertusLaurus]

152. We are talking about winning a NATIONAL campaign.......

so regardless of what Teddy has done for you, the rest of the country is sick of him, and he only hurts the party's image in the heartland and south.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

153. Why is the country sick of the only Senator aside from Byrd

that calls Bush on his Bullshit? Could it be an innate prejudice toward anything Northeastern? And why do YOU speak for the rest of the country? Please.

If so it proves my point that a certain area of the country should get over the Civil War. That would be like me hating the British who literally fought my ancestors in my backyard during the Revolutionary war.

[CertusLaurus]

156. The country was sick of TK long before...

Bush was ever in the picture.

Look, if you don't want to believe me, fine. But when Kerry loses big, maybe you will understand.

And this has nothing to do with the Civil War. You northerners seem to think that all we do down here is pout about losing. Fact is, I know that had we won, the entire world would be a crappy place to live because the US wouldn't have been strong enough to help out in WWI and WWII. The only time we think about the civil war is when people like you tell us we need to "get over it" as a way to divert from a different argument (just like you did).

The truth is that most Southerners could care less about the Civil War, Slavery, or Confederate flag (yes, including right-wing Republicans), and would very much like to get over the racial divide that still lingers (and I believe we will as soon as you holier-than-thou Northerners drop it as a political tool).

[Kathy in Cambridge]

161. "Holier-than-thou" Northerners

Hardly. How come us 'holier-than-thou' Yankees don't give two shits where a candidate is from, but the Dems always have to worry about running a Southerner to appeal to y'all down there? What is up with that? What else would it have to do with if not the Civil War?

Your hatred toward Yankees shows. Pretty sad. you're making quite an impression for being so new to DU.

[CertusLaurus]

166. First, it should be noted that

I wasn't the one who first used the term "Yankee" in this discussion.

Second, the party runs Southerners because of simple Math. We can appeal to a broader range of American than a New Englander can.

The fact that you keep bringing up the civil war shows your complete lack of understanding of anyone South of Washington DC. I can honestly say that I was shocked when you brought it up because it is such a ridiculous thought. This is exactly why a Kerry-type Northeasterner can't win- you keep trying to tell us what we are thinking, and then proceed to tell us how to change our thinking, even though you were wrong in the first place.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

168. I am descended from a Southern family on my mother's side

My grandmother grew up in Tennessee until she came up North for college. My cousins live in Tennessee, Georgia, and South Carolina. They seem to have no problem with Northerners, but then again, they're liberal Democrats.

What is so vile about a New Englander, in your esteemed opinion? Why can't they appeal to a broad range of Americans? Have you ever been here? Lived here? Do you realize that rural parts of these six states have more in common with rural areas of Georgia and the cities where us "Northeast Urbal Elitist Libruls" reside? You have fallen for the right-wing propaganda that Northeasterners are somehow less 'American' than the rest of the country. What a crock of shit.

BTW I'm not for Kerry. But you obviously have an axe to grind...

[CertusLaurus]

173. Let's disect this post:

I never said anyone was "vile".
I never said "Northeast Urbal Elitist Libruls" (whatever that is).
I nver said "Northeasterners are somehow less 'American' than the rest of the country".

What I did say is that they are less electable. But let me be even more precise than that- ones from Mass. are less electable, due in good part to two other politicians from Mass- Dukakis and Ted Kennedy.
Why? I don't know. But then again, I don't have to know- it is simply a fact.

I'm glad to hear that you have cousins in the South, but I would venture to guess that if a Northerner told them that they needed to get over the Civil War (with absolutely no proof that they wern't over it already as you did) they would begin to have a problem with THAT northerner.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

176. Simple Fact? Or your opinion?

It's a simple fact that many of these regional prejudices are fueled by the Republican party, thus scaring the Dems that a Northeasterner would be a poor choice for a nominee.

I have traveled all over the country and have encountered very little anti-Northeast prejudice. Most of the time people tell me how beautiful Boston/Massachusetts is.

I think it's not a matter of region but a matter of running the right Democrat.

[flaminbats]

178. can I disect your post?

What I did say is that they are less electable. But let me be even more precise than that- ones from Mass. are less electable, due in good part to two other politicians from Mass- Dukakis and Ted Kennedy.
Why? I don't know. But then again, I don't have to know- it is simply a fact.

I'm glad to hear that you have cousins in the South, but I would venture to guess that if a Northerner told them that they needed to get over the Civil War (with absolutely no proof that they wern't over it already as you did) they would begin to have a problem with THAT northerner.

Certain Victory for Dean!!

First, what do you say to people like FDR during the 40's who felt that all southerners were "unelectable"? Let me just submit to you that saying an individual is unelectable is just like saying another person is unbeatable, this is a myth with no foundation. Southerners continued to fight this myth in 1960, when they unsuccessfully rallied behind LBJ for the nomination. Instead...well, you know the rest. The first southern man since Zachary Taylor to win a Presidential Election was L.B.J. in 1964. Since then every President, with the exceptions of Nixon and Reagan, have all been elected from the south.

It means IMHO that this trend can be reversed...but it is really a question of when it shall be reversed.

[QC]

177. What else could it have to do with?

You know, Rose, I live in rural Mississippi right now, and the only place where I regularly encounter people who seem preoccupied with the Civil War is DU.

It never comes up in discussions with my neighbors or my students here. My family and I rarely discuss it. Aside from the occasional crackpot letter to the editor, the subject seldom comes up in public discussion.

In my experience, most Southern resentment of "Yankees" comes from the sort of condescension that we get so many opportunities to see right here at DU. I lived briefly in the Northeast and grew to hate having to answer stupid questions from otherwise intelligent people who seemed to think that "The Beverly Hillbillies" was a documentary. (Of course, having affluent liberals who lived in lily-white communities and sent their children to private schools berate me for my home region's racism got old, too.) Any Southerner who has spent much time in the Northeast has encountered this sort of thing. I've had a number of professors from the Northeast who spent more time griping about their great misfortune in having had to come to such a benighted place than in discussing the subjects they were hired to teach. (And yet they never go elsewhere, even though people as brilliant as they imagine themselves to be must surely have top universities fighting over them.) And, of course, many of us have worked for imported Northern managers who assumed that we didn't have the sense to come in out of the rain.

Experiences like these have made the haughty, condescending Yankee an archetypal figure in the South. You don't have to go back to Gettysburg to explain it--it's based on current attitudes that many people still hold.

[flaminbats]

180. I grew up in the south and take classes in the north...

and believe me...there are just as many if not more haughty, condescending types in the south than you ever encounter in the big northern cities. One reason I love the north as a native southerner, is you can count on honesty and directness in the north. In the south this is all veiled behind a stuck-up perception which many southerners are raised with as children, and this is that the southern way of life is the best way of life BY GOD!

LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT>>>:nopity:

[QC]

183. What's your point?

I don't recall saying that there are no snobs in the South or that "the southern way of life is the best way of life BY GOD."

Have you ever thought about responding to what people actually say? It take some thought, admittedly, but it does make a discussion much more interesting. Also, you might want to consider that "love it or leave it" sounds just as cretinous when we say it as it did when the pro-war crowd said it back during Vietnam. :eyes:

[digno dave]

190. Civil War? Good grief

You seriously have no clue. The Civil War? C'mon, that is so out of left field. I have no bias towards the north. None. I would rather sit down and read a good northeastern newspaper than any rag we have down here.
I have never heard anyone reference the Civil War when discussing this issue until you mentioned it. It seems you may be jealous because of the shift of political power from one region to the other. I could care less. If all southern states were blue and all NE states were red i would want Ted Freakin' Kennedy to run for President. Whatever it takes to get a blue man in the white house. It's not a question of preference, it's a question of mathematics, ie the Electoral College.
That chip on your shoulder is going to be knocked right the hell off by Dick Cheney if you don't watch out.

[AntiCoup2K4]

157. Byrd didn't vote for Bush's bullshit. Kerry did.

I'd vote for Byrd if he were running.(though he's a little old for the job)

[flaminbats]

169. Or what he has done for you?

Can I give some examples?

The Kennedy/Kassebaum Portability Act, which allows workers with pre-existing conditions to keep their health insurance through COBRA.

Or the Kennedy/Quayle Job Partnership Act, one of the best job training programs enacted.

Or another program Kennedy has fought for, IDEA..Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

Strom Thurmond and Ted Kennedy co-sponsored legislation requiring warning labels on all alcoholic beverages. Ted Kennedy backed it because of his own well know experience, and Thurmond because his own daughter was killed by a drunken driver. Both he and Strom introduced the bill together on the floor of the Senate.

Those who make the best Senators aren't the ones who become big heroes, but keep their nose to the grid-stone by working for the voters while taking hell in the process.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

171. The Kennedy family has a legacy of fighing for causes that benefit

the average person. Ted has been a great Senator, his son, nieces and nephews are involved in politics and charity work. His nephew, Joe, former Congressman from Boston, runs Citizens Oil with offers free and low-priced heating oil to the poor and elderly. There are many other examples of their assistance to the poor.

They put family 'dynasties' like the Bushes to shame!

[flaminbats]

174. I'm a big fan of Joe!

I still remember when he played a big part of the Tsongas campaign back in 1992. It would be nice to see him run for office again. :thumbsup:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

175. I worked on Joe's congressional campaign

he is a great guy...

[IowaBiker]

158. Tired of selling out to Dixie

Tired of the broken promises, empty moral values and scummy politics.

I'm tired of their "If you don't place a southerner #1 on the ticket, we won't play ball" games.

It's about time a real American ran for President -- someone from a place that doesn't fly the rebel flag.

--Iowa Biker

[QC]

179. "Real American"?

Do you not see the irony (or hypocrisy) in holding the same attitude as the people you're complaining about? Or, if not that, can't you at least see a problem in painting with such a broad brush?

[digno dave]

191. clueless biker

he's clueless. ignore him.

[IowaBiker]

192. Pure Bigotry

"You gotta have a southerner to get the Southern vote."

"New England Liberal can't win!"

That is bigotry at its highest form.

Don't call me a hypocrite.


--Brian

[UrbScotty]

160. If a northeasterner can't get elected, then why was JFK elected in 1960?

Or FDR?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

163. it's a fear the Repukes put into the Dems

most of the Southerners with anti-Northern have other prejudices too and aren't going to vote Dem anyway. Personally, I'm sick of being held hostage by one area of the country. Too bad we can't have a Midwesterner or Californian as a nominee.

[rpf113]

162. A southern VP...

got JFK elected. Clark or Edwards are my bet for VP nom''s.

[Iverson]

164. I don't understand "A" and "get." n/t

n/t

[mb7588a]

184. What part of IT'S UP TO US

TO GET IT DONE don't you understand?

This is sick. It's all about every one of us getting to the poll, and taking a van full of friends who think just like us. If every DUer did that, we'd have a bazillion votes! w00t.

Stop worrying about the south and start registering people in states we CAN definitely win...