I want to leave this country. Where do I go?

[joeprogressive]

I am seriously considering a move for the sake of my newborn son. My wife and I have jobs that allow us to live anywhere in the world but english would have to be the predominant language.

We have seriously considered New Zealand. I am tired of fighting. I don't want to wake up one day when I am sixty and regret that I didn't act sooner. The US is in steady decline by all measures. 2008 will be a good time for us to move and I think the outcome of thae presidential election will be the deciding factor. If people can't evaluate 8 years of miserable failure by this administration and vote for a progressive candidate, then hope is lost for this country.

Other than the language thing, they must have universal health care, and a decent educational system. Any ideas?

[jody]

1. China or India. n/t

[joeprogressive]

4. Are you kidding?

I would never have considered those two countries. In fact we considered adopting a girl from one of those countries because of poor conditions that women live in.

[jody]

13. Not kidding, you want a rising economy, safety, etc., try Hong Kong. n/t

[tavalon]

19. Let me translate for you

China and India are going to be the next world superpowers. If you want to be in a country that is a superpower, thems yer choices.

However, I didn't get the impression from you that that was one of your criteria.

[joeprogressive]

25. exactly, not looking for the next America

Superpower is not wanted. That is what got us into trouble in the first place.

[Wetzelbill]

2. Canada is a cool place

I'm from Montana and vacationed there a lot with my family growing up. Alberta is really a great province, Edmonton, Calgary, Lethbridge all excellent places.

[joeprogressive]

9. I hear Vancouver is great

n/t

[Wetzelbill]

17. Vancouver is

I heard it's pretty expensive though.

[niceypoo]

51. Live in the burbs of Vancouver.....lot cheaper

Canada is like the US without all the problems. Personally I would choose Costa Rica.

[NewJeffCT]

3. I've heard good things about New Zealand

Ireland is supposed to be the best place to live right now, but who knows what country will be in 2008 or 2009?

If they had universal health care, I'd pick China... still cheap to live, rapidly growing economy, improving universities, and I have relatives there.

[wakeme2008]

18. I have thought of New Zealand or Barbados...

Both have things I would like.

[Massacure]

35. You gotta be kidding. China is probably THE most polluted country.

Companies are allowed to dumb their untreated waste into streams. A lot of the rivers are various colors other than blue due to the chemicals in them and some of them even start on fire!!!

[NewJeffCT]

40. China is taking many positive steps on the environment

While they have a long ways to go, they are moving in the right direction on the environment. Can we say the same about our country?

[theboss]

39. And you will die of lung cancer at 20

China is horribly polluted, and it's just going to get worse.

[NewJeffCT]

41. no, it is getting better

Unfortunately, I don't have the post bookmarked from a few weeks back... but China is taking a lot of positive steps on the environment. While they have a LONG way to go, they are moving in the right direction - is the US doing the same?

[Andrew Smith]

5. Sorry, but you're right

If we cannot get a progressive into office in 2008 after 8 years of failure, then you are right, this country possibly has lost all hope.

[European Socialist]

53. 2004 election-lost hope.

After seeing Smirk in action for 4 years-public still gave him half the vote. Get out of US now.

[newyawker99]

78. Hi Andrew Smith!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

6. I recommend Scotland

It has an actual left-wing Labour government and its educational system is excellent. Despite London's problems, terrorism is much rarer further north. Scotland is generally much more left-wing than the rest of the U.K.

I live in northern England and so I come into frequent contact with Scots and they are really nice people.

Scotland is also actively looking for skilled migrants since its population is declining.

[pengu1n]

23. disagree...sort of

I come from Scotland, and the place is Left wing (sort of).

Lovely people in general, as well as some stunning scenery and livable cities. Good beer, excellent whiskey, scathing humour....

However - I bailed out from those shores because Scotland is a part of the UK. And the UK is simply the most eastern of the United States.

Blair - and by extension the corporate culture that is firmly in charge of the US - has this country signed and sealed.

We are in Iraq, we will be in Iran - or wherever Bu$h wants us.

Move somewhere where democracy is real, and where your taxes are not spent on "Bombing Brown People".

[Swamp Rat]

28. Hyvää päivää!

:hi: Welcome to DU!

Spot on bro! When I wrote Galloway a few months back to thank him, I told him my family has traced our ancestry back to 16th C. Scotland... I then asked him if I could "come home." :D

I think I'll stay here and fight the fascists until all hope is lost. Then, if I can leave, I will become someone else... preferably someone who speaks a Latin-based language... just think Rio de Janeiro! Oba! ;)

[MsTryska]

34. bah! he said a counttry that speaks English!

;)

[wli]

7. count yourself as lucky

My significant other has vetoed emigration. :cry:

[joeprogressive]

11. Do you live in a dictatorship?

Keep pushing the issue. If he cares for your happiness he might come around.

[wli]

20. I'm trying, but not very successfully

Thus far it mostly seems to center around my SO's rather emotional response to distance from family and (insert groans here) fear of financial hardships from moving to and life in a foreign country, and fear of the now-worldwide animosity toward Americans.

[xchrom]

8. england! -- england is lovely.

loads of socialist minded folk -- even when thatcher was in, there were plenty of kindred spirits -- and they really identify as leftists.

the economy is pretty spritely -- it's youthful and energetic -- very lively arts scene.

ireland and scotland are just as grand but smaller countries --

[mikita]

10. I would suggest you not wait for 2008....

unless the voting system is overhauled, there is no way to be assured of an honest election. We haven't had one in a long while, and I don't really expect it to happen anytime soon...

I'm past the age limit for New Zealand, or I would have tried it. Instead I started an application to Canada (Victoria), but I've hit a snafu as I can't get a clear set of fingerprints for their required security check. I could've had a career in safe-cracking, I guess! I keep missing the boat....

Best of luck, and do this while you're young enough and have transportable talents!

:hi: Mikita

[joeprogressive]

14. Thanks for the encouragement and advice

We really can't leave until 2008 and I do want to give the US people one more chance to wake up out of their zombie state.

[truebrit71]

50. No question about it...ENGLAND

That's is where I will be headed if the rethuglicans steal another election in '08.

[Andrew Smith]

12. Wherever you go,

good luck. I may just do the same thing that you are considering doing, if we cannot get someone reasonable into office. Bush ignored all the warning signs of 9/11, and look what happened.


If someone else gets in office that is just as bad as Bush, think of what else could happen.



Again, good luck to you, and all of my best wishes are sent out to you.

[joeprogressive]

16. Thanks, and best wishes to you as well

I agree, whos to say that Bush on roids isn't around the corner? He has let the neocons in the door.

[tavalon]

15. People surprisingly can evaluate

the polls make that clear.

But Diebold, EE&S and Sequioia will be determining who gets into the White House, the Senate, the House and many local races as well.

Is there any chance that you would be willing to work for voter verified paper ballots in the next few years before you leave? I mean, since you're leaving anyway, it would be a real help.

[joeprogressive]

22. I would but.......

I don't think that is the problem. Yes it is possible that the last two elections were stolen, but I don't think BBV is necessarily the culprit. The polls leading into the election were close to the results. Dems historically have poorer turnout than what they poll at before the election. A dem candidate needs a 4-5 point lead in the last polls taken in order to win on election day.

The real problems to me are the inherent flaws in the electoral process, the dumbing of America, and the corruption of local election officials. BBV is a possibility but I am not convinced. Even if it was true it still doesn't negate that close to half this country did vote for this moron after 4 miserable years.

[tavalon]

26. Funny

The Democrats were far more motivated this last election. Far more Democrats were newly registered in Ohio than Republicans. But, those people who registered as Democrats couldn't be bothered to go out and vote. But they were willing to be interviewed by the exit pollers unlike those embarrassed and shy Republicans?

I'm not saying it wasn't close. It was and that really, really sucks but Diebold, et al, has it down to a fine art now. They won't need close elections anymore. They didn't really need it to be close this last time, that was just a nice perk.

I don't think you've done quite enough research, Joe.

[joeprogressive]

36. Actually I have done an abundance of research

I am not ruling out BBV but I don't think you can show me in hard evidence that it occurred. Anyway, you know that the country is pretty evenly split and that is a product of the media whores that are controlled by republicans and a very ignorant electorate. Change those things and push a progressive agenda and we will win elections. Spend all your time doing internet research on diebold et al. and we will continue to lose.

[LaurenG]

21. I would prefer that you stay and fight

Why would you go just now? We have 2006 looming and a few possible indictments. I hope that you are only "thinking" about it. We need all the patriots we can get our hands on. :patriot:

[joeprogressive]

24. I don't want to be the dead soldier that fought for a losing cause

I want to live my life in happiness and peace with my family. I have fought until now. Not all soldiers die on the batttlefield. Some retire and live the good life. I would rather go somewhere I can live happily and fight for others that are less fortunate.

[LaurenG]

32. I know and I don't blame you at all

and if you must go I wish you every joy and good thing that life has to offer. I was asking you to wait in "selfishness" as we need all the good guys we can get. I wish you all the best whatever you decide. :hi:

[joeprogressive]

38. all the best to you

I will always pray for America and do what I can to affect change from wherever I end up.

[joeprogressive]

37. I will always be patriot

but I will be a patriot in another country so I can provide a better life for my family.

[DaDeacon]

27. Don't punk out!

Listen to yourself , tired of fighting? You sound like a wimp who needs to retink his values. Do you really care for your son, then be a man and continue to stand for somthing don't run away. If this was a case of gunfights in the street I would agree w/ you but come on. I too have a kids and I teach them to love who they are, the land they are from, stand up for what is right. In truth teach your kids to be real Americans!

[ticapnews]

71. Not to be crass, but as I convince myself it is time to leave...

I keep thinking the following:

The cowards who fled Europe in the mid-30's are now called survivors.
The brave, hearty souls who stayed, who resisted, who hoped for change, are called Holocaust victims.

I don't expect a Holocaust, per se, but I am also not all that excited about sticking around to see if it happens. If we don't make progress in the midterms I am probably heading for Canada or Scotland. If we (s)elect another neocon Christofascist in 2008 I am definitely out the door.

Unfortunately, when Nuclear Bolton gets through at the U.N. there may not be a safe place to escape the fallout.
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[AntiCoup2K4]

77. Gunfights in the street could be just one staged "terraist attack" away

I'm not leaving the country at the moment, but when the Chimp Gestapo comes to drag you off to the camps, will it really matter?

[Bridget Burke]

29. You & our wife need to make this decision yourself.

Will you be living like pitiful refugees or trying to give something positive to your new country? You sound as though you were already old & tired & looking for a safe retirement home. There are many fine countries out there. Please try to learn more about them & see which will be best for you.

And reconsider that "English only" rule. Even if you move to a country where it is the major language, continued growth is good for you.

[katinmn]

30. I admit I'm thinking the same thing, joeprogressive.

America is turning into a hateful place and it seems there are only a few hundred thousand of us who are upset enough about it to do anything. I hope I'm wrong but most people STILL don't care about our military imperialism, sanctioned torture, lack of basic health care for everyone, lack of election integrity and fairness, the drive toward creationism, the gay-bashing, the laws legalizing the robbing of our people by corporations, the setting aside of the Constitution (Patriot Act), and other outrageous changes Bush & team have bulldozed over our country.

While my first choices would be a Scandinavian country (where my peeps are) or Canada, I'm looking at where my small nest egg would go furthest. Looking at quiet places like Belize and Portugal. Yeah, they're poor but I hope I could make a contribution to their society and no one's going to be invading them anytime soon.

I'm not waiting around for 08 unless we win back some seats in '06.

So far I am working on two campaigns for 06, a Congressional race and a statewide office. Both candidates are strong progressives. I'll be hopeful if our elections are cleaned up and we oust Republican majorities in both the House and Senate. If not, I see no point in continuing to fight for an America that embraces fascism.

[wake.up.america]

64. Try Austria

[Totally Committed]

31. Canada, Ireland, New Zealand n/t

[election_2004]

33. I've heard Barbados is nice....

I've always wanted to go there for vacation. I've heard (from people who've visited Barbados) that the people are friendly, and the prices are reasonable.

Plus it's close by (within this hemisphere) if you're indeed contemplating a SERIOUS move.

[bmcatt]

42. I'm contemplating NZ myself...

Unfortunately, my wife is 7 months pregnant with our 2nd child and so I can't get her to travel this year to take a look around there. I'm hoping that next year (although, sadly, probably late in the year), we can do a long vacation to NZ to scout around. Maybe, between the people there and looking around and, if I'm really lucky, our son (who'll be 4-ish then), we'll be able to come to a meeting of the minds.

I'm not ready to give up just yet, but I will admit to some bleak moments and I'd really like to be somewhere where I can be happy about the country I'm living in and the people who are my neighbors.

Also, and I've told my wife this - if there's some sort of major (read: "nucular" (sic)) attack in this country, I'm not even bothering waiting. I'll be tossing her, the kids, and myself onto the first plane out of here and we'll figure out how to move all of our stuff after we land and get our feet planted.

[joeprogressive]

44. I am also planning a month long vacation to NZ

NZ really seems to have everything we want.

[bmcatt]

46. Let me know how it goes? :-)

Semi-seriously, that is... At this point, based on what I know, I really like the *idea* of NZ, but don't know the reality of being "on the ground".

[joeprogressive]

43. I will consider Barbados

There are other variables in play for those that think we are punking out. My wife and I are in health care and feel we can give more to another country. The US health care system is one of greed and corruption taken over by the insurance industry.

Also for those that think we are punking out, do you feel like Hispanics that flee Mexico for a better life are punking out? They are doing it to improve their economic survival. We are doing it for other reasons, what is the difference?

Remember, everybody has a right to be happy. I had no control over where I was born and God didn't draw the boundaries so everyone should have the freedom to go where they are happiest. This isn't rooting for the rival football team, this is life.

[undergroundpanther]

47. Because I am poor

I have no chance of escape .I have no marketable skills to woo a country with. Artists are a dime a dozen.If it gets fascist It's over for my ass.I would rather die than go along with that..So I am toast.I abandoned hope long ago.

[SammyWinstonJack]

48. You are right.

I'd leave if I could and not just because bushco**, Inc. has turned America into a shit hole, I have long wanted to live elsewhere. Italy or Spain, maybe France. bush** and his PNAC gang have only made that desire stronger. Good luck to you.

[wake.up.america]

52. I am glad there are at least a few people who support his right to decide

I love it where I live.

Do you?

[undergroundpanther]

62. I don't love this world

at all.

[joeprogressive]

55. Good luck to you as well

I hope your circumstances change so you at least have the option to leave if you wanted to.

[theboss]

45. This is why we need the Mafia in charge of Cuba again

That country is just begging to be a haven for Americans.

[Rockholm]

49. Canada, The Netherlands, New Zealand.

[Sparkman]

54. The nice climates are ALL crowded, unless you're independantely RICH.

Because, for U N Yours, life could become very difficult unless you have an income wired up, and it's portable. Living for generations in one place makes it easy to earn, unless there's upheaval like S. Africa?
basics:
1) stabile econ. structure
2) friendly government
3) mild climate
4) access to meds and family/friends
5) INCOME.
Idealism is anti-pragmatic, blinding us to the realities of life.

[joeprogressive]

56. Is NZ crowded?

I was under the impression that there are several small to mid-size towns that have many amenities and the climate to boot.

[Sparkman]

59. sorry, never been there. but obvious answer www.newzealand.com?

[Ron Mexico]

57. If you find a country with acceptable UHC, education,

and a linguistic setup just for you, let me know so that I can join you, move in down the block and help you lower property values. :)

I think you're asking a bit too much here - if there were a country that suited you, you'd already know what it was. The closest thing to what you describe, in my mind, is England. I used to live there and loved it, but I was single, paid in American dollars, and I paid American taxes, so I can't tell you much about what it'd be like to be a local with dependents.

In the meantime, I'll stay here and slug it out, even though I think hope is already lost for the country. The downside to a big federal government is that eventually the wrong side gets to steer it - and when Clinton and Gore only got so far in their attempts to reduce the size and scope of government, that was it for any hope I had. I'm still staying, though, because I'm too goddamned old to start over.

If I were inclined to move based on social services, though, I'd be preparing to learn a new language. It wouldn't hurt your newborn to be bilingual, either, if you're really serious about leaving.

[joeprogressive]

58. I can dream

but really, I don't think I am asking too much: english, progressive politics, UHC, and decent education. These are exactly the things America could be but chooses not to. The language thing isn't a sticking point b/c I am willing to learn a new language and most countries speak native tongue with english as a close second language.

[Ron Mexico]

61. Well, if you're willing to learn a new language, here's my recommendation:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001652JC/qid=1122999422/sr=8-5/ref=pd_bbs_sbs_5/002-2799434-9379234?v=glance&s=software&n=507846

[wake.up.america]

63. Ron, are you a 49er fan? I have your name from somewhere.

Photoshop par excellance?

[Ron Mexico]

66. Rams fan.

I don't know what you're referring to, unless it's my username on Michael Vick's back (you do know the Vick story, don't you?). As a Rams fan who holds any Falcon in contempt, I couldn't resist the dig.

If you do understand my reference, I would love a copy of the photo as an avatar. :)

[wake.up.america]

68. There is a guy from http://www.49erswebzone.com with your ...

"name". Check it out if you can.

Ron Mexico is a 49er fan, at least at the below forum.

He is the photoshop expert.

However, I can make an avatar of the Vick picture.

It is ready to go.


http://www.49erswebzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/member.cgi?action=searchuser

[wake.up.america]

69. Need your email address to email the pic

[bikebloke]

60. New Zealand for me

I spent six months there, using my bike to get around. I was hoping to find a legal way to stay. The easiest way is to marry a Kiwi. Just make sure you look like a couple. They check. I missed out by one lousy point via the front door route.

I pick up languages easy enough, so Europe would fit. Though the boats there are full. Especially with high unemployment. The company I work for has a London office, but I never liked that place. A few of us have been lobbying for an office in Sydney...or Barcelona...

[Poiuyt]

65. Best counties in the world to live in 2004:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index

1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Netherlands
6. Belgium
7. Iceland
8. United States
9. Japan
10. Republic of Ireland

PS - Stay away from Sierra Leone

[joeprogressive]

67. great, thanks for the list

I have heard wonderful things about iceland.

[windbreeze]

73. Sweden....

Wonder what my g.grandfather would think of me taking my family back where he came to the US from, in the mid 1800's...amazing thought, in a way...That less than 150 years later, I consider escaping the country he chose to bring our family too..sad..
windbreeze

[strizi64]

70. come to Switzerland...

language is a little problem (our children have to learn english in school for 6 or 7 years now), healthcare for all in very fine shape and one of the best school systems, certainly better than any in the EU plus a very high standard of living. And if you did your first five years you can take swiss citzenship and go to vote in a real & direct democracy... You're welcome:), like others before you.

stritz

edit: typo

72. switzerland

Didn't Switzerland JUST give women the right to vote? They very much want to keep women pregnant and in the kitchen according to what I researched on the web.

[strizi64]

74. are 30 years "just ago", hm?

just kidding, get your informations. 70% of all women are working, voting, pay taxes and if they want, they can join the military. Like man. Switzerland has changed very much since Cold War is over;-)

on edit: and we are "pro-choice", and the decision is done by women alone.

80. switzerland and women's vote

oops! I was looking at a "page in history from the 70's". Sorry, got it wrong. I didn't realize it was an article on their history. But when I checked, sure enough it said "this day in history". :blush:

[ProudDad]

75. Check out Belize

or learn Spanish.

[darkism]

76. Sweden

As damn near a socialist-democratic paradise as you'll ever find. Plus the language is relatively easy.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

79. don't do it because ...then you will become a vitim of our foriegn policy