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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:58 AM
Original message
Historically, during time of war, Americans expected to sacrifice
if not their own lives, certainly property and paying more taxes.

So I am puzzled why the majority who continues to support the war and its expenditures balk at paying more taxes.

Has anyone written an editorial about this, or is this too logical for our illogical world?
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. Paul Krugman had gone back through history
And had gotten to some time in the Early or High Middle Ages (I think) and had not found any other nation - be it kingdom, empire, dictatorship, etc - that had slashed taxes during wartime.

This was over a year ago in one of his columns.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. Americans don't want to sacrifice for this war
Even the ones who claim to support the war. They don't want to pay more taxes for the war, enlist or send their kids to enlist, have gasoline rationed, whatever.

I guess they figure slapping magnetic ribbons on their vehicles is enough support.

I'd say you're right about this subject being too logical for our illogical Bushworld.
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. This has been my thesis for two years...
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 09:11 AM by Richardo
In addition:

The full force of industrial capacity is commandeered for the war effort if necessary (make more body armor, suckers - that's an ORDER!)

Sufficient troop strength ensured by conscription - even in 'popular' wars like WWII

Raw materials needed for the war effort are rationed to the public (most notably gasoline).

This adminstration has done the complete opposite in all of these cases: Tax less, spend more, encourage consumption, maintain civilian economy, refuse draft.

If there WERE a serious war on terror, we would be expected to make these sacrifices (indeed most would EXPECT to make these sacrifices). Since we are not, you can only deduce that there IS no serious 'war' on terror. OR that Bush is too cowardly to level with America about the resources required to prosecute it fully.

We have now spent more time screwing around in Iraq and Afghanistan since 9/11, than it took America to prosecute ALL of our involvement in World War II - from Pearl Harbor to V-J Day. THAT'S what you can do with total commitment.


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orion9941 Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's always amazed me...
...that so many people complain about not wanting to pay taxes. Or that their taxes are too high. But its also those same people that complain that there aren't enough roads or the roads they have are in poor condition and the pot holes aren't being filled, or that there isn't enough public transportation, or that their public schools don't have enough money, yadda, yadda, yadda. Its taxes that pay for these things!!! And if you want them fixed or improved or whatever, you have to pay higher taxes.

I'm not crazy about having to pay higher taxes, but if the money collected from these higher taxes go directly to improving our social systems and our infrastructures then I am okay with it. Too many damn people want to have their cake and eat it too.
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getmeouttahere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. My sentiments exactly....
one thing I have learned in traveling the world is that you can't have a just society without a social safety net and a decent infrastructure. It doesn't come free, either. This is why a country like Canada ranks higher than the U.S. in overall quality of life. It comes down to this - too many Americans don't care about their neighbor enough to make the sacrifices or pay the taxes necessary to ensure a decent quality of life for all. Of course, even a few of my repug family members call that communism. And BushCo has the sheeple convinced that is what liberals want.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Excellent comments
This is especially noted in the state of Minnesota, where residents were always willing to pay higher taxes for the quality of life, excellent schools, well maintained roads and parks.

But that quality of life attracted many who do not want to pay for their shares. As with many places, the sprawl of the exburbs and the transformation from a manufacturing-farming society to a service one, where each is for himself - brought the election of a Republican governor. The budget is still in shamble, but the only solutions are taxes, er, fees, on cigarettes and more casinos.

Welcome to DU. Will be looking for more excellent observations.

:toast:
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getmeouttahere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Wow, sounds like that sort of thing happens
in a lot of progressive states! Obviously people move here to California from all over the country and world, so I suppose its inevitable that you get some folks who want to introduce their "no taxes" tendancies to their new home.
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getmeouttahere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. Remember, this is the group....
that wants to shrink government until they can "drown it in the bathtub" but it remains to be seen whether the sheeple will wake up before they accomplish it. Of course, defense spending doesn't count in all of this, which is why they have to shrink the rest of it. Perpetual war and destruction of the social safety net.
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bennywhale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. America has never been willing to sacrifice and has never known sacrifice
on the scale that most other countries of any political and military significance has.

Europe lost 70 million people in 2 wars last century. Wars that were fought in peoples back yards.

Iraq has already lost more people than America lost in Vietnam.

African nations are fighting NOW that are losing more lives than America.

I think the American myth of war seems to be repetitively naive until one actually comes along. Its this kind of clean, righteous war with all American heroes either dying quickly and nobly because it was "his time" or coming home unscathed.

In popular American literature or film there doesn't appear to be any mention, for example of people never speaking again when returning from war, or of whole towns populations being slaughtered from history.

I don't think a lot of americans appreciate the reality of what war actually is. An obscenity.
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getmeouttahere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Nailed it, bennywhale....
My father and I were just discussing this last night. No sacrifice asked of us, except perhaps civil liberties. And we use Iraq as a staging ground for our so-called war on terror. Unparalelled arrogance!
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. You hit the nail on the head: Wars that were fought in peoples back yards
Except for the civil war - which was in some people's back yard - we really do not have a first hand experience of a real war. Except for immigrants, of course, who have experienced it.

I have often wondered how civilians manage to survive, for years, during wars. Not just Iraq or what we call "third world countries" - but the former Yugoslavia.

I think that part if a stable society, where families live in their land for generations, where most people knew their neighbors and help each other, and where one could only rely on the family farm to provide the basic food necessities.

But here we have an alienated society, with people barely surviving on their wages servicing the residents of mac mansions and drivers of hummers who are the most hostile on the roads.

For most of us - war in on TV, just like Westerns. All we are waiting is for John Wayne to bring it to a happy ending.

And, I suppose, with two thirds of the economy is service based, we need to keep money in the market to pay for these hamburgers, and to be served at Wal-Mart.
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bennywhale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I know what you mean. Its almost a sanitised, movie version of a real
country. no-one actually produces anything. Nothing is made anymore. it will reach the point where the whole of US civilisation could vanish in a week if everyone just stayed in the house. Its all on TV screens. its paper thin. it doesn't seem quite real somehow.
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