If the Democratic leadership turns its back on Dean....

[liberalfriend]

If the democratic leadership turns its back on Howard Dean what would you do? Do you think like many who consider Dean to be the one who can bring this party back to power and build a party that is uncorrupted by corporate influence or are trying to curry favor with the right? Or do you see it as more important to keep the party unified in the face of republicans, that ultimately they are the true enemy not those with in the party?

I'm new to DU and I'm just trying to get a real good sense of forum. So Hi to everyone at DU!

[Mythsaje]

1. Welcome to DU

Speaking specifically for myself--it doesn't do much good to oppose the corporate RW if the corporate LW takes over where it leaves off. If they spurn Dean, they can go directly to hell.

[hippiepunk]

2. I'd be surprised

if they did stand with him, but that's what they should do to strengthen the party/liberal movement. Welcome to DU!

[liberalfriend]

3. word up!

But would you wnat to seem then gone or do you outwhiegh any crap from them in face of a greater "enemey"?

[hippiepunk]

5. Eh, screw them then

I don't want a Republican Lite party. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

[blm]

32. The media has exaggerated that whole Dem division business and even duped

Dean into making an uninformed comment about anti-Semitism at the Conyers hearing.

The media knows exactly what they're doing when they ask for comments from Democrats using out of context quotes from other Democrats.

The media is fostering division in the Dem party to obscure the inner turmoil of the criminal gangs within the GOP.

I can't believe with all we know about the media and the GOP spin machine, that anyone here at DU would still fall for their crap. Either you'd be a practicing ignoramus to fall for their machinations, yet again, or are working WITH the GOP to promote the perception of inner turmoil and merely using Dean to do it.

[Tux]

4. If they turn against Dean

I will not go along. I will never vote for a Dem that is in line with the DLC. That simple. We can't have corporations privatizing our gov.

[cascadiance]

44. I think that the key is that many Dems are now wisening up...

and many more are taking an inward look at how this party is working and what the DLC role is, has been, etc. than before this election. Up until recently, they've stepped back and just tried to vote for "the blue guys" and trusted that their moves to the middle at times was compromise necessary to achieve greater goals through consensus. You asked many of us, myself included, who and what the DLC was a year or so ago or earlier, and you'd have many people shaking their heads.

I think that many are starting to realize the extent of the damage that corporate lobbying and contributions are doing to the goals and mission of those in power and how that's affected what the DLC does to affect where the party goes. And many are now feeling it is time to demand that our representatives in this party need to step back and stop being bossed by two masters, and instead be bossed by one master, and that's US, the people, their constituents.

It's one thing to do honest compromises with the opposition to help get passage of legislation and other agenda that is really more important to our party. It is another to masquerade "sellouts" to the opposition as tradeoffs for the greater good, when in fact those sellouts are more to directly pay back these contributors and nothing is received by *US* the constituents in exchange for those "compromises". The people that have been doing this aren't "moderates" but "sellouts" in my book and we should weed out the "sellouts" from the true moderates in our party. Those "compromises" are more to get more political contributions than leverage for legislation that better serves us. More people are asking "why" when they see the votes on bankruptcy bills, etc. and unless they see some other shutting down this corruption, they don't see a party that works for them, but one that is instead hijacking them to achieve others' ends.

Giving Howard Dean leadership of this party is the first step in the direction of correcting this problem. At this point a lot is still planning and talk, and the others in the party get more nervous without seeing real results that strengthen the party yet. Dean has helped many at the local level with the "Dean's Dozen" and other ways of helping local politicians get elected, which is why many state leaders now are so behind him.

What needs to happen now is to show some results of his efforts in substantive terms. Winning certain key elections without having those elections be beholden to corporate money, and having those elections won by Dems that really resonate their messages with the people that elect them and maybe in some cases really are counter to what corporate America wants.

Once this sort of success occurs, the DLC and other corporate influence peddlers in the Democratic Party will be pushed and isolated into a corner. Many politicians that have to this point been perhaps a bit scared of the changes that are coming and have looked to the DLC to help preserve the status quo that keeps them in power, will see the newer status quo can also keep them in power. Those that want to be more true to the will of the people and not compromise their agendas to corporate will, will enthusiastically jump on board.

Those politicians that truely have a vacuous set of goals in terms of serving us and are more self-serving in terms of getting power through corporate sponsorship will be the ones that will be pushed aside then.

The DLC and other parts of the Democratic Party will probably still get contributions from corporations and other groups, but hopefully at that point it will be the Dems saying to them that their contributions aren't about buying any influence to affect the corporations agenda through influencing the agenda of the Democratic Party, but that such donations should only be given to support the party's true representation of the people's wishes, and that these corporations want to keep that mission going. Some corporations that are really responsive to their employees, customers, etc. will see the value of supporting such a party that won't support their wishes directly but that will support building a healthy America. That kind of support, along with the grassroots support of Dem Party constituents is the kind of support that we want to encourage.

The key now is to help Dean get a strategy together that will allow him to have an effective way to finance effective campaigns that win elections outside of the "bribery chain". That will require a lot of grass roots work and our contributions of money, etc. Recognize that the kinds of money that we donate at some point have to be on-going and "sustained" for those others to believe that Dean's strategy will be a good long term strategy. Some of these donations won't come through until many are convinced that Dean is truely working for them, and not just trying to find additional cash to supplement the influence peddling corporation contributions. Hopefully over time that concern can also be alleviated as well, and people will feel good about making sustained contributions to our party (either through legwork or money) that will keep it strong for the long haul.

And as a parody of a Thompson Twins song that I'd like to see made would say... "Don't Mess with Dr. Dean!"

[bemildred]

6. I would unelect their asses, all of them. nt

[theboss]

7. Be pleasantly surprised

But I am in a distinct minority here.

[liberalfriend]

8. what do you mean?

so your for maintaining unity?

[Eloriel]

11. That unity crap is a false premise,

and a false choice too.

I don't know where you get the idea that if the party elite (for want of a better word) spurns Dean it will mean the party splits, or the end of unity, or something. And worse, that the rest of us should go along with them in the interests of unity. In fact, the very idea makes me stark raving mad!

If the democratic leadership turns its back on Howard Dean what would you do? Do you think like many who consider Dean to be the one who can bring this party back to power and build a party that is uncorrupted by corporate influence or are trying to curry favor with the right? Or do you see it as more important to keep the party unified in the face of republicans, that ultimately they are the true enemy not those with in the party?

No. You're talking about a small handful of people (compared to the total Democratic Party voters and rank and file).

Do you know how Dean got elected? The party elite weren't the ones who wanted him, and in fact they worked furiously trying to find someone, ANYone, to run who could beat him. They had several different candidates, actually, and not one of them could beat Dean.

Dean worked hard to get elected. He called each and ever one of the 400+ delegates who would be voting for him, and he also wooed the elected Dems in Congress (for all the good that did, tho there were a few who were behind him). AND, rank and file Dems like the people you see here on this forum lobbied their delegates on Dean's behalf.

The DELEGATES basically fomented a coup on their party elite. They said: we're electing Dean. We like what he says, we like what he promises to do. And so sure enough, during the last week or so before the vote was to take place, one by one of the other candidates dropped out. Better that than go down to defeat. Dean had the votes.

IT WAS A COUP. Please stop accusing those 400+ party activists of being against unity: if anyone, it is the ELITE who are working against unity, and by elite I mean elected and unelected (i.e., consultant) Dems who are used to being the powerbrokers and are working really hard not to lose any more power and control than they already have. And too many of them in or aligned with the DLC. They hate Dean because he works for The People, not for the personal aggrandizement of the powerbrokers.

Howard Dean is our chance to take back our party, to make it once again what it was supposed to be: the party of The People, working to protect everyday people from corporate and government atrocities and excesses. HE's working his butt off, and has been since about the very first minutes after he was elected.

So let's not have any more of this falsely blaming any perceived lack of unity on those who are working FOR unity and success and renewed vitality, eh? Tell your elected representatives to get with the program -- that is, behind Dean -- or find another party.

[liberalfriend]

16. Hmmm

Where do you get the 400+ figure? I think there really is a potential divide within the party that if not watched carefully might be exploited by the other side. I think that a large amount of democrats would feel very betrayed by the leadership if they turn against Dean. Hence the question would you feel that a split with the party is needed or that we can live with what we have because to weaken ourselves in order to have a more unity would give the rethugs more power in the short term.

[Eloriel]

22. You just persist, don't you?

Where do you get the 400+ figure?

That's the number of Democratic activists -- party members -- from all the states who attended the Winter Meeting of the DNC (February), and were eligible to vote for the Chairman and other offices and issues. (I am bad about remembering numbers, so if I got the number wrong, just chalk it up to that problem, not any attempt to mislead. But I think 400+ is accurate.)

I think there really is a potential divide within the party that if not watched carefully might be exploited by the other side.

They can exploit damn near anything we do, or don't do. They are expert exploiters. We have to just mind our own business, keep our own counsel, and forget about what they say or do relative to OUR BUSINESS.

I think that a large amount of democrats would feel very betrayed by the leadership if they turn against Dean.

A large number of us already do. You could say that's one reason Dean won, for starters.

Hence the question would you feel that a split with the party is needed or that we can live with what we have because to weaken ourselves in order to have a more unity would give the rethugs more power in the short term.

I just don't see where you get to "split," or why you keep promoting it as some sort of viable idea. I don't think it's necessary, likely at this point or even a viable notion or concept to even discuss -- at all. If anything, the Dems who are NOT on the same page as the rest of us are either tragically ill-informed voters and don't matter that much to start with, or they're self-serving elected Dems who can either get witb the program or go to hell. TRUST me, "unity" will not suffer if a Biden and a Ford and this one and that one fall by the wayside because they care more about their own damn hides and their own power than the Party and The People. That will not split the party at all.

Continued talk about a non-existent and totally unnecessary split MIGHT, however. Is that what you want?

[Pallas180]

49. I wrote the DNC - no money for them, in answer to a letter

after they knocked Dean, and I got a letter signed Kerry, that I was
no longer contributing..that I would contribute to individual campaigns, not to them, because they were diminishing Dean.

Money talks.

[theboss]

33. Unity is over-rated

At the height of the power of the Democratic Party, we were the most disjointed, disorganized, multi-voiced political organization in the history of the planet.

I think there needs to be more in-fighting, not less. That means that we actually have a diverse group of people.

At the moment, all the interesting fights are taking place on the right-wing. You have the Christians vs the Libertarians. The Neo-cons versus the Paleo-cons. The "Compassionate Conservatives" versus the deficit hawks. McCain versus everyone.

All we seem to have are the moderates versus the liberals in a fight over what type of tv commercials we should run.

[pstans]

9. I stand with Dean

Sometimes I wonder if we would be better if Howard Dean started his own political party instead of trying to change the system from the inside. A party that focuse on fair elections, equal opportunity, and taking power away from the big money corporations and giving it back to the people is something that people from both sides could get behind. Many people in the Democratic Party are so much in bed with these Corporate goons that all they know to do is bash him.

[seabeyond]

10. i sent an email to gov richardson, he sent me a typed letter

i really appreciated this letter from the gov. i have been bothered with richardson over the election and his state of nm. i told him that. i also told him i had heard he was positioning for hillary's vp. and i didnt like him attacking dean. dean did speak for me. and many other people. i wouldnt support the democrat that couldnt support his fellow democrats.

his letter replied

...i welcome the opportunity to clarify and set the record straight...

...i applaud the work Chairman Dean is doing to build our party from the bottom up...Chairman Dean has been an energetic and enthusiastic proponent of it...Dean is doing a good job, i made it clear in an interview with...

it was a good four paragraph letter typed. i was appreciative of the gov for sending me the letter. i think i will take the time to type him a letter, and even capatalize my words, lol to let him know i appreciate his comments, and i am serious. support dean

[liberalfriend]

12. interesting

What if Dean and Hillary clash? It is no secret that Dean was not really her first choice in heading the DNC. If Richardson really wants the VP spot don't you think he will drop his support for Dean in order to curry favor with Hillary?

[seabeyond]

14. if........

then.......

wink

if hillary were to clash with dean, then yes i imagine richardson would diss dean. but, i was glad to hear from richardson and see that he is supporting dean. i think it is important that fellow dems hear from the grassroots, that are supporting dean. i think that is the best bet that fellow dems will behave with dean

[Eloriel]

25. Uh, he supports Dean in name only, or put another way

is more than happy to damn with faint praise, if you get my drift.

Here's an interesting article that I believe explains a lot:

*** Gaggin Dr. Dean
Discussed here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Link: http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1281/article13433....

[snowbear]

15. Yo...... Liberalfriend.......

Hillary - President???
Richardson - VP???

(((( ))))

Sorry.. but that sounds like it came straight from the media -- NOT FROM DEMOCRATS!!!!

Boy.. you need to stick around here a while .. You have much to learn grasshopper!

[EC]

20. Funny, I just got a letter from Hillery (contribution letter)

saying how she is working WITH Howard Dean to get the party in shape in all 50 states...no mention of presidential race, just raising money for senate...


Hillery is a professional and will work with the chosen head of the Party, for the party. She is DLC, but she'll not destroy the party.

[snowbear]

13. The Democratic Leadership will NOT turn their back on Dr. Dean!

Just because some members of the Democratic party expressed displeasure in comments Dean made a few weeks ago, that doesn't mean they're ready to heave the good doc out the door!

Why at a time when everything is going just fine, should we insinuate that the party would turn their backs on him?

No way baby!

BTW.. Dean will be a guest on the Ed Schultz "Big Eddie" show tomorrow~~

Other than that ~~ Welcome to DU liberalfriend ~~

[liberalfriend]

17. HI!!!

It's more of a hypothetical more than anything else. I'm not Ms. Cleo here so I can't accuratley predict that this would ever happen, but rather I'm just curious what everyone would think is the right direction to take IF it ever happened.

[snowbear]

18. Well... fortunately there's a easy cure for you...

Just hang around here for a while and you'll see how popular the idea of Hillary for President is..

Stick around.. You'll see..

[Pallas180]

50. Did you hear Biden knocking him. They dont support him and I dont

support them, anymore.

They ought to wise up. It's not what THEY want, it's what WE want.

REAL democrats.

[Fiona]

19. I don't see anybody turning their backs on Dean

a few weeks ago, he made some intemperate remarks. Other Dems were asked about those remarks, and they responded appropriately. They weren't racing to microphones to denounce Dean. They were asked, and gave politic answers.

Please, why continue the "Dean against everyone" idea (or more appropriately, "Everyone against Dean")? It's fruitless.

[Larkspur]

39. They were not polite answers. They were distancing themselves from Dean

who was telling the truth about Republican leaders.

The Dems who backed Dean were the DNC Exec Committee who told him they elected him to fight Republicans, not be a wimp. The pro-corporate Hill Dems and the DLC Prez hopefuls all denounced Dean's remarks.

[Fiona]

43. I didn't say they were polite answers

I said they were politic.

Politic: marked by artful prudence, expedience, and shrewdness



When asked if they agreed that Republicans never worked a day in their lives, they were correct to distance themselves from those remarks. However, they all also commented on their appreciation for the work Dean is doing. They didn't turn their backs on him, and they didn't race to the microphones to denounce him.

[Patchuli]

21. They'd lose their base if they did!

Welcome to DU!

[snowbear]

23. "They'd"??

What's with "they'd"

Don't you mean "us"?



This place is going looney tunes tonight..

[Patchuli]

24. I am behind Dean

and I am not behind the DLC, or the spineless Democrats in Congress and the Senate and if they don't wake the hell up, they will lose many of us. Dean is for us and with us. F the DLC.

[lvx35]

26. I'm 100% behind Dean

And he's 100% behind us. HE's the one with the sense of the people to take us forward: A strong spine toward the Republicans and embrace of moral principles.

[Patchuli]

27. He is behind us

which is more than I can say for some of our elected Dems.

I got ACLU too! Welcome to DU!

[Rainscents]

29. Hi Larissa!

You always have cute cartoons!
I wish I could learn to attach cartoons and photo's on here, I haven't learned how to do it yet.

[Rainscents]

28. Dean is the man!!! Anyone who turn against Dean, they will not get my

support! BTW... Welcome to DU!

[stickdog]

30. It depends.

Have fun fishing.

[liberalfriend]

34. what is fishing?

is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[JohnnyBoots]

31. Makes me think of that scene in Braveheart when the

other lords make a deal with the English and leave the battlefield and Wallace to fend for himself.

[AntiCoup2K4]

35. Dean is the only "leader" the Democratic Party has at the moment.

Reid's batting .500 (Though he's better than Daschle) Pelosi's mostly useless and the DLC needs to be driven into the ground so far that even the maggots have to climb down a ladder to find them.

[liberalfriend]

45. Really?

Reid and Pelosi I think have done a pretty decent job so far. They are still feeling gout their new positions to some extent and are working in the minority. What they have accomplished so far is pretty admirable. Granted there is always more work to do it is still early before any serious changes could take effect (06 elections) and I think we'll just have to give them more time. However one major way to keep everyone together is to listen to the party faithful like the good people of DU. If we the base want to have Dean as our leader they must at least listen to its members and not get in his way.

[liberalfriend]

36. Response to Eloriel

Well I'm not really for a split in the party simply because I see the chaos that would occur would give the Republicans a great opportunity to acquire more power. However I do agree with the assessment that allowing the democratic leadership to support Dean or his values would make the party simply republican lite. Look at it this way, if you have ever looked at the history of the parties, you'll notice that in situations that we are potentially heading to the portion of the party that is "kicked" out of the party tend to go over to the other parties side. This in turn will effect how the party votes and what issues it considers important. This means that though in the short term the other side gains more power, in the long run the overall political mood and set of opinions will lean more to your own viewpoints, thus allowing our side to gain more control of the legislator and then start setting the country on the correct path. SO if you where to split the party and send out the weekend warrior democrats they would more than likely go over to the republican side, over time this would greatly change the political landscape within the republican party. Remember the Dixiecrat exodus, this had a major impact on the republican party.

[dr.zoidberg]

37. I consider this a trick question.

I don't think that the Dems would ever turn their back on Dean, at least right now. The Dems feel that Dean gives them the best chance to win the presidency(not that it means anything) and Congress(very important).

Also, I believe that Dean is trying to see how far he can push things. In other words, he is in a feeling out process with the other Dems. He will only go so far so that the Dems won't turn against him. I don't think that Dean or the Dems want to lose each other, so even if Dean goes to far the Dems would more than likely try to keep him.

A party uncorrupted by corporate influence is a pipe dream. It will never happen because those corporate influences help pay for campaigns(whether it's legal or not).

What Dean has been truly successful in is convincing Dem supporters that the opposition are scum. He done a fine job and deserves to be commended for it. It's a classical move in politics or any other field for that matter.

However, the key thing is this: Dean nor the Dems should NEVER say that they will not work with the Repubs. Playing games of spite in politics get you NOTHING. The only thing that spite guarantees you in politics is that the other side will fuck you over in the same exact way.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

38. UNELECT THEM!!!

[Larkspur]

40. Pelosi and the DCCC are working with the DNC to fight the Repuke

"Culture of Corruption." I think some of the Hill Dems are starting to see the light and that Dean is not the enemy.

Raw Story: In call with bloggers, online media, Dean raises Rove, ethics
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/In_call_with_bloggers_onl... >http://rawstory.com/news/2005/In_call_with..._ethi_0707...

In a conversation with bloggers and journalists Wednesday evening, Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean reiterated his theme of a Republican “culture of corruption,” and put new focus whether Bush advisor Karl Rove leaked the name of a covert CIA operative.

The call, hosted by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, marked a new strategy by the Committee to increase outreach to online media. Dean has not previously spoken on the record with RAW STORY.

Dean said a new DNC and DCCC ad buy targeting six Republican districts is “the beginning of a campaign to focus on the culture of corruption in Washington.” He invoked the “culture of corruption” phrase repeatedly.

“Nobody likes corruption, whether they’re conservative or liberal,” he remarked. “I’d like to use this to spearhead election reform, banning voting machines that can’t be counted by hand… I’ve always been a big fan of instant run-off voting. We also need some reforms of ethics in congress.”

Dean said Democrats intend to file ethics complaints targeting Republican members. He dismissed suggestions that he was out of sync with Democratic members of Congress.

“Our roles are different,” he said. “They’re in a legislative battle every single day. They’ve got to deal directly with the ethics complaint. I have the luxury of making a long-term plan to get Democrats in power again.”
<SNIP>

[Totally Committed]

41. I support what Dean is doing as Head of the Party... (n/t)

TC

[lojasmo]

42. I support Dr. Dean.....

Exposing corruption wherever it lies. If the democratic leadership bucks Dean, well...

Let's just say, I support Dr. Dean wholeheartedly.

[Pallas180]

46. Ditto, me too. Dean's a democrat...I don't know about those other lily

livered.

[Miss Chybil]

47. He can't build an "uncorrupted" party by himself. If he has no support,

he has nothing. He'll have to keep/get the support, or start his own club.

[WCGreen]

48. The best way to ensure Dean's success

is to get involved at the loal level.....

It's time for a little bubble up participation.....

My wife is the Precinct Committee person for our area.......

I served as the Treasurer for the County Party for 8 years.....

We left the posts in capable hands to let someone else have a shot at participating.....

Get involved.......


On Edit
I put Endure instead od Ensure.... Fruedian Slip some might say