Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

MSNBC: Taking the DSM to the next level!

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 02:35 AM
Original message
MSNBC: Taking the DSM to the next level!
Edited on Tue Jun-21-05 03:24 AM by Vyan
Tonight Hardball on MSNBC did a Special Report on the Downing Street Memo, and contrary to expectation of many, including myself, who predicted yet another lame white-washing of the issue similar to the recent Washington Post Editorial by Dana Milbank - this story, I dare say, may have been a breakthrough moment.

Rather than throwing cold water on the issue as did CNN when it first mentioned the memo (Calling the London Time a "Tabloid"), Hardball - temporarily sans Faux-macrat Chris Matthews - handled the story in a very sober and serious manner, starting with primary guest Michael Smith (the original author of the London Times piece), and moving on to former CIA Director Jim Woosley as well as a UN Weapons Inspector.

Instead of the standard right-wing claims that the information within the Memo's is "Second Hand", this report gave I think a fair estimate that either MI6 head Sir Richard Dearlove was wrong in his assessment that the "facts were being fixed", <b>or</b> the United States simply used the UN as a "pretext" to give legal authority to the Iraq War.

For his part, Michael Smith did an good job of expaining exactly why the original documents were photocopied, transcribed by a secretary, afterwhich the originals were returned to the source and the photocopies were destroyed : On the advice of attorneys to protect the anonymity of the source.

There was also the arguement that this is "old news', however it seemed quite obvious even to a casual viewer that the first option (Dearlove is wrong), is a rather strange position in conjunction with "this is old news", when Richard Clarke, former Treasury Secratary Paul O'Neill and even Bob Woodward (although not mentioning former Pentagon insider Lt. Col Karen Kwaitkowski) are all called upon as examples of how "Bush was focused on Iraq and Saddam from day one".

Could all of these people be wrong in exactly the same way?

Jim Woosley provided the most damaging commentary, stating his opinion, in contrast to Britain's Attorney General, that Saddam's repeated violations of UN Security Resolution #1205 already provided ample ammunition to go war.

As it turns out UN Resolution #1205 dates back to 1998, when the Weapons Inspectors were pulled out in the wake of continued resistance by Saddam to their continued work in detecting and destroying chemical and biological weapons. This resolution, among others, was used by then President Clinton to begin a massive bombing campaign of Iraq specifically targetting all known and suspected WMD sites. (In fact, it may be because of the work of weapons inspectors up to this point in conjunction with Clinton Administration bombing that WMD's have to date not been found in Iraq.)

When asked whether or not the efforts by the US and UK to seek UN support for the war, subsequent to the events of the DSM, are indeed a debunking of the information contained in the memo/minutes - Michael Smith pointed out twice that the key element of the minutes is plot to use the UN as a pretext to create a legal justification for the war when none currently existed. The expectation was the Saddam would resist the re-insertion of weapons inspectors - as he had prior to the passage of resolution #1205, But how after going to the UN and getting the passage of resolution #1441, the weapons inpectors were indeed allowed back into Iraq, and contrary to UK and US expectations - as outlined by the DSM's - Saddam submitted completely to their intrusion, and thereby completely abrobated the hoped for justification for military intervention.

Inspectors did not find WMD's, but they did find and destroy hundreds of Iraqi missles which were in violation of UN Resolutions. Saddam did not resist. At this point Saddam was in complete and total compliance with resolution #1205 and #1441 as well as all relevent resolutions.

What then, was the continued justification for War?

The fact is, there wasn't one. Saddam and Iraq was in compliance and had provided thousands of pages of documentation to that effect. Weapon's inspectors were back in place and doing their job.

Yet we still went to war? Why?

Apparently because President Bush decided he didn't trust Saddam, and decided to forgo further diplomacy in direct violation of the October 2002 Resolution (H.J. 141) authorizing War in Iraq as a last resort.<

Tonights excellent report on Hardball - as well as a similar report and the immediately following Countdown with Keith Oberman, may have been the first serious examination by the MSM on Downing Street: The Series (as it was described in the Countdown crawl), and the first real MSM attempt to explain why we are in the midst of a war that didn't need to occur.

During the report Woosley futher argued, deftly I must admit, that Saddam was certainly a danger to security in the region as well as to his own people - and that "We are certainly better off now - without Saddam". That may indeed be true, even John Kerry was forced to admit this many times during the election, but is also clear is that Saddam's continued resistance to inspections was tied directly to his ability to remain in power. If weapons inspectors had been allowed by the Bush administration to finish their job and had confirmed in 2003 that Saddams WMD's were in fact either exhausted or destroyed (as the ISG eventually did report in 2004), it's certain that as Woosley puts it he wouldn't have become "Philosopher King" - but without any real way to again repel an insurection by the Kurds from the north (as was openly supported by the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998), it may also be equally argued that he may not have remained the leader of Iraq either.

Imagine that - Saddam gone without the blood of a single American soldier, or $322 Billion (and counting) of the American Treasury having been spent? Wouldn't that be a far more preferable situation to the one we have now?

Vyan
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like a good story....finally.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Could it be
that MSNBC has decided to do what the Post did for Watergate?

Then again, in my eternal cynicism I did not want to turn on the news... I truly did not

These days I no longer get my news from any of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes * is in office because of them
when there is serious reporting ,day in day out,of the DSM let me know,otherwise I get my news from the net. Run away bride,Michael Jackson,and OJ type coverage on DSM . Then I will start watching.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. we'll see how far MSNBC goes with this - let's see if CNN has a
piece put out on DSM over the next week or so?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. When "Deep Throat" Came-Out, Several Weeks Back
I caught a fast-mention from Chris Matthews that (paraphrasing) "he could have broken that story, but for whatever reason didn't or couldn't.."

It through me back for a second and my first thought was: "Does MS-NBC/Hardball" desire to be the "one" to lock-in high ratings? Maybe?

Since the only decent news station is C-SPAN, MS-NBC could knock CNN and FAUX out with the blink of an eye.

Interesting... will catch it tonight on re-run. Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Whoa_Nelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Am stunned
...and hopeful. Thanks for sharing your blogspot, Vyan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. But KBR wouldn't have made any money.
Think of the corporations, sir!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. ::I am not actually posting in this thread::
My effort will jinx the push for impeachment for sure, so--I'm not really posting this but: Is this good news? Really? I can't tell why if it is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I think yes...
Many comments about the DSM which are commonplace here or on Conyersbloc and Dailykos were presented without Spin, and the usual smarmy attitude of condencension which is normal among the MSM.

Vyan
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. Jim Woolsey is a shill-but overall, the coverage by Hardball was great! I
hope it isn't an isolated incident since Tweety is out....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. As was pointed out in a post yesterday on DU ...
Woolsey was a PNAC signatory. Need we know more?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Nope - that says it all! Anyone associated w/ the PNAC crowd can be
expected to be a) a shill b) a warmonger c) a liar

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shoopnyc Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. I find it interesting...
that on last nights Hardball, for the DSM report, that Matthews disappears, (sure, he took a vacation day!), and the "young 'uns" are left, (Shuster and hosting David Gregory), are left to unravel the mistake of not covering it in the first place. Gregory was much more aggressive and better than I thought he'd be, and the *impression* that I was left with was that there is a serious pecking order in the "entertainment journalism" circle jerk, with the newbies damping their opinions for the adults.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. Woolsey and Kay damaged any credibility they might have had
...by insisting "fixed" (as in "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy") doesn't mean the same in the UK as it does here. BOLLOCKS! As Michael Smith -- the London Sunday Times reporter who broke this story -- said in his online interview with the WaPost:

"There are number of people asking about 'fixed' and its meaning. This is a real joke. I do not know anyone in the UK who took it to mean anything other than fixed as in fixed a race, fixed an election, fixed the intelligence."

'Softball' should have cleared that up. Now there's a whole new batch of people out there who think the DSM is nothing because 'fixed' means something else in Great Britain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tesla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I wonder if that is the same "fix it", * said to Jethro
the night Gore won Florida at 7pm in the evening, 2000?????

I remember hearing that when the *'s were watching the returns, and they announced Florida going to Gore, that Chimpy got up and called Jethro in Florida and said, "Fix it".
Does anyone one else remember hearing that?

that's a pretty powerful line. "Fix it"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thanks for the excellent recap, Vyan...
..nominated. I am shocked that MSRNC covered this fairly, but this is great news! NOW we're getting somewhere.

Turns out that Gee Duhbya is as least as big a criminal and terrorist as Saddam, eh? In this case, he was a worse one. Imagine that. :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GTonkin Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
13. The CIA Got Played
You're right, Vyan, the DSM shows that the fix was in. But the problem with the memo is that it doesn't explain how the intelligence was fixed.

That's where I come in.

For the past six months I've been working on a theory about the WMD 'intelligence failure' based on the Senate Intelligence Committee Report, the Robb-Silberman Report and the infamous forged Niger documents. Someone was given access to classified intelligence so they could fabricate evidence of WMDs that would fool the CIA. The CIA got played and signed off on the Iraq War.

But don't take my word for it. Last week I layed out the case online. Check it out at http://www.theciagotplayed.blogspot.com

Since it's a blog, you've got to start at the bottom and work your way up. If you read through it and think I'm wrong, that's cool. No harm, no foul. But if you think I'm right, tell your friends, write some posts, make some noise. Do something! These people belong in jail for what they've done. This makes Watergate look like a parking ticket.

G.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kota Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. You lay out the case very nicely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Hi GTonkin!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. KICK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GTonkin Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Thanks guys
Thanks for checking out my site. And thanks NY99 for the warm welcome. I'm trying to get my work read by as many people as possible. I believe if enough people ask the right questions (about the West African businessman, for example), we'll blow the lid off of the WMD 'intelligence failure' and how Bush played us into war.

G.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
15. Why would GE allow this to happen?
I don't understand how big bad defense contractor General Electric would allow their propaganda department to disseminate information detrimental to their profitability.

If I were a GE shareholder, I would be very upset at this turn of events, and think about selling. I mean, are they war profiteers, or are they pretending? cheez.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. We need to encourage them to stay on this
They need to have more people on talking about this subject. It would be great if some corporate news program would have the guts to have Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski on their show or Sibel Edmonds. Let's write to them and let them know that we're watching and that we want to see more!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I would like to see more Sibel Edmonds on TV...
though my motives may be less than pure. I just think she's very pretty. ;-D Oh yeah, and her message is brave and true, and continues to be proven true as the independent evidence filters out. Just yesterday saw a headline that we still have a serious shortage of translators and mismanagement in that area. Sheesh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
19. Great article, Vyan
Thanks for clarifying the UN Resolutions
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
21. Excellent report!
Thanks, Vyan!

Interesting information. I always wondered why Saddam would ever resist weapons inspectors if he intended to avert a war with the U.S. and re-enter the world markets. His ability to defend his power against Kurdish uprisings, etc. is a plausible explanation as power was his most important asset.

What is apparent is that the PNAC and * administration (one in the same, really) have always had greater plans for the area and Iraq is an important piece to that plan. The intel was being fixed to match the justification (policy) being presented to the UN, Congress and the American people. The real reason for war had nothing to do with WMD and very little to do with terrorism, rather a much broader policy of control of the region and its resources. This is the high crime that must be investigated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC