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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:04 PM
Original message
How many DUers are familiar with The New Democrats as outlined
...here in this article:

<snip>

DLC | Blueprint Magazine | July 27, 2003
The New Democrats' Declaration
Agenda

Table of Contents

Two hundred twenty-seven years ago, democratic insurgents and reformers came to Philadelphia to forge a new country that would forever change the course of human events. They gave us a nation and a government based on immutable, enduring values: work, responsibility, liberty, equal opportunity for all, special privileges for none.

Now, at the dawn of what ought to be America's greatest century, too many of our country's leaders are trying to leave behind the values and aspirations that have made America great. If we continue on the present course, the promise of America will never be the same.

President Bush has not kept the promises he made America three years ago in Philadelphia. His administration promised to expand our prosperity, but has squandered it. The administration has failed to address the real problems that most Americans face: paying the soaring costs of health care and college; saving for retirement; balancing work and family. It has burdened, betrayed, and abandoned the middle class and all who aspire to join its ranks.

We want more for America. We will ensure that the values, security, and aspirations of the broad middle class are forgotten no more. President Bush has no agenda for the forgotten majority. We do. The party that helped build America's great middle class is determined to save it.

<more>
<link> http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=86&subid=194&conte...

I wish I could set up a poll which would read:

No, never heard of the New Democrats:
Yes, heard of them, but do not know what they are about:
Yes, I know what they are about and agree with many of their positions, but I'll stick with traditional Democratic candidates:
Yes, I am very familiar with The New Democrats and support them fully:
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. I disagree with the DLC's free trade policies
It's helping to pit American workers with desperate third world workers in a race to the bottom. You cannot gain something without losing something else. You want cheap prices. That's fine, but there are consequences for others you may not be taking into consideration.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. The DLC and the New Dems are the same thing almost
All DLCers are New Dems except for a couple hold-outs.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. The New Democrats voted for Bankruptcy reform
and tort reform and all corporate friendly bills. At K Street, they are second in line with their hands out right behind the GOP.

From that declaration, sounds like the New Dems also picked up the GOP way of saying the exact opposite of what they really mean.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Their ilk also enjoy patronage from far-right founders of RW thinktanks.
Check out my sig.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. yeah
Howard Dean had his dealings with Koch industries (and Enron and Haliburton.)

Can't pin anything on the DLC that non-DLC dems aren't participants in themselves.

The DLC is just a point of fear-focus for some.

Communism = rightwing boogyman.
DLC = leftwing boogyman.

Check out my sig.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Got some evidence for that?
Another made the claim and failed to back it up, but I know you're not the kind to make baseless accusations.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. evidence on which one?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Sorry, should have been clearer.
"Howard Dean had his dealings with Koch industries (and Enron and Haliburton.)"

This one - specifically the Koch question.

Also, a question for you: Dean aside, do you think it's a good idea for ANY Dem or Dem organization to take money from guys who founded rightwing think tanks with the intention of destroying Dems and their party?

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. first, I'll tell you what I know...
...concerning Dean.

Dean pushed aggressively for tax breaks for corporations that set up subsidiaries whose sole purpose is to provide insurance for the parent company.

One company that took advantage was Enron, creating a spinoff in 1994 called Gulf Company Ltd., which has been taken over by the state of Vermont since Enron's bankruptcy.

This was brought to light by Dick Gephardt, who was guilty himself of taking money from Enron. The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee received more than $200,000 in Enron contributions since 1989. During much of that time, Gephardt was House Democratic leader.

One of Deans last acts as Governors was to auothrize the sale of the Vermont Yankee plant to Entergy/Koch Industries. He refused to sell Vermont Yankee to another company just months earlier who offered exactly the same deal. Entergy/Koch INdustries is, owned by the two riches contributors to the Bush Campaign in the United States, the Koch Borthers who founded the same Cato Institute that honored Dean with his conservative rating, as well as being the financial backers of virtually every neo-con think tank in D.C.

Among the largest and first contributors to Deans presidential campaigns were the executives of the energy companies in Vermont owned in one way or another by Entergy.

Three times in 2003, one Robert Crandall of Dallas, TX, contributed $2000. to the Dean campaign. Robert Crandall who, since the 1980 election cycle, has made political contributions as the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of American Airlines and the Chairman Emeritus of AMR Corporation. The same Dallas-based Robert Crandall who serves on the Halliburton Board of Directors.

Dean aside, do you think it's a good idea for ANY Dem or Dem organization to take money from guys who founded rightwing think tanks with the intention of destroying Dems and their party?

Well, it looks bad when that is brought to light. But that doesn't mean the Dem or Dem organization is in on the plan to destroy the party.

Howard Dean took money from News Corp (FOX News) yet I don't think he's in on any Dem crushing conspiracy (well, I know some of his more passionate supporters believe they could take half the party with them if they left.)

Heh! Some Dems have been bold enough to take corporate money with no promises to do the corporation's bidding.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You'll forgive me for asking for links, not "what you know".
No offense, but that's hearsay, not evidence.

So...you don't think taking money from people like the Koch brothers is bad? If this is the case, why did you mention Dean at all - was it just an attempt to lessen the impact of my statement about the DLC/New Dems taking their money?

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. ok
Edited on Sun Jun-12-05 04:09 PM by wyldwolf
Dean/Enron:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.mpl/special/enro...

Dean/Koch Brothers:

Among the papers under lock and key, NEWSWEEK has learned, are the records of Deans meetings with utility executives about the controversial sale of a Vermont nuclear plant to Entergy Corp. (Koch Industries)

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3660764 /

Vermont utility executives got complete access to the Dean Administration's Public Service Department to pressure a deal on Vermont Yankee that will give the utilities some $25 million for their corporate coffers, and lock ratepayers into high-priced energy costs for the next ten years. This sweetheart deal was struck just after certain utility officials made political contributions to the Governor's presidential bid. Meanwhile, environmental groups didn't get the time of day.

And as usual, ratepayers get stiffed. For years to come, Vermont ratepayers will be forced to pay above-market power costs - more than $100 million -- to Entergy to buy back Vermont Yankee power, while power prices drop everywhere else in New England.


http://web.archive.org/web/20020820040031/http://www.cl...

MONTPELIER When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.

Nearly a fifth of the roughly $111,000 collected in its first months by Deans presidential political action committee, the Fund for a Healthy America, came from people with ties to Vermonts electric utilities, according to a recent Federal Elections Commission filing.

It should be no surprise. Dean and utility executives have had a long and friendly relationship.

Early contributions to Dean's Fund For A Healthy America included $1,000 from a top executive of Green Mountain Power, one of the power companies involved in the Vermont Yankee negotiations, and $5,000 from an executive of the company that operated Vermont Yankee.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020808075444/http://timesa...

Entergy-Koch, LP (EKLP) is a limited partnership, formed in February 2001, between subsidiaries of Entergy Corporation and Koch Industries, Inc

http://www.eklp.com /

----------------------------------------------------------

Dean/Haliburton

More important, should we have any concerns about Dean's ties to Robert Crandall? On three occasions this year, the Dallas-based Crandall contributed a total of $2,000 to Dean for America. The donor is apparently "not employed/retired," so FEC records show no professional affiliations. But if he is the same Dallas-based Robert Crandall who, since the 1980 election cycle, has made political contributions as the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of American Airlines and the Chairman Emeritus of AMR Corporation, then he is the same Dallas-based Robert Crandall who, as the company site notes, serves on the Halliburton Board of Directors. Bear in mind that the records stopped showing professional affiliations at around the time of Crandall's retirement.

http://www.tagorda.com/archives/001983.php

--------------------

So...you don't think taking money from people like the Koch brothers is bad? If this is the case, why did you mention Dean at all - was it just an attempt to lessen the impact of my statement about the DLC/New Dems taking their money?

To a degree. But my point, as always, is that piling on DLC Dems for doing such and not other Dems is hypocritical.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Believe me, I'll pile on ANYONE who does it.
It's wrong and deserves repudiation.

I will examine the full context of the links you have provided. Thank you for taking the time to offer evidence of your claim.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. so did non-DLC dems
point?
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. The DLC/New Dems can be guaranteed to vote for the lobbyists
each and every time, no exception. While every once in a while you can get a non-DLC/New Dem to vote for the people instead of their own wallet.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. every once in a while?
I'm assuming you have a chart of voting records that you're pulling your info from.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. Not all of them
while Byrd and Reid did.
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't support DLC! I support, DNC!!!
Edited on Sun Jun-12-05 02:33 PM by Rainscents
I got an email from DLC the other day asking for donation... I sent the email back... HELL NO!!! I SUPPORT DNC!!!
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. When you go to the NewDems page it has DLC listed up in the heading
Edited on Sun Jun-12-05 02:43 PM by Robbien
They even use the same webpage format. Seems as if someone changed a few words on the DLC site and set it up for the DNC site.

Compare the list of DLCers and the New Dem list. No one on the New Dem list is not on the DLC list.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. a question and an observation
1. Where are you reading lists of "new dems" vs. "DLC?"

2. The two sites (DNC and NDOL) look different to me.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Here is the link for NDOL.....
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_sub.cfm?kaid=86&subid=194

When you go there you have a direct link to DLC (Democratic Leadership Council). Now, that sounds like an affiliate of the Democratic National Party or Convention (DNC).

You raise a good question, are the DLC and the NDOL actually Trojan Horses of the GOP? That's part of what I am trying to find out. It's like the enemy within, and if that is true than we must expose these people as neo-conservatives in sheep's clothing.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. wait
1. I want a seperate list of DLC members and new Dems.

2. I did not raise that trojan horse question in any shape of form.

the NDOL and the DLC are the same thing.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I guess I don't understand what you are asking for then.....
...I know nothing about The New Democrats, which is why I started the thread. Everything I've received back to my post, connected me to links for the NDOL, which in turn shows links to DLC. I'm in the dark just like you I suppose.

It all started when I checked my e-mail earlier today and got a fund raising announcement from Scott Maddox, the Chairman of The Florida Democratic party, who has announced his candidacy for Governor of Florida. I asked DUers from Florida if they knew anything about Maddox, and a number of posts lead me to these links above.

Let's hope someone can spread some sunshine over this affair. I wanted to make sure that Scott Maddox was not a genetic decedent of the notorious racist/segregationist Governor Lester Maddox of Georgia.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Here is what you wrote:
When you go to the NewDems page it has DLC listed up in the heading They even use the same webpage format. Seems as if someone changed a few words on the DLC site and set it up for the DNC site.

My point is that NDOL.org (NEW DEMS OLINE) IS the online site for the DLC. They are the same thing.

Also, the DLC site looks completely different than the DNC site.

Compare the list of DLCers and the New Dem list. No one on the New Dem list is not on the DLC list.

Here you claim there are two lists. I'd like to see links to those two lists.



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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Ask yourself the following questions
Why would the DLC constantly encourage "Democrats" to be weak and spineless and not challenge Republicans, either in spoken word, nor in congrssional votes?

Why would the founders of the DLC proclaim the 1994 theft of congress to be a "liberation"? (Al From/Will Marshall - Blueprint magazine 1/95)

Why would DLC controlled Senators vote consistently with the Bush/PNAC/neocon fascist agenda.

Why would the DLC hire a man such as Marshall Wittman whose resume includes The Christian Coalition, The Heritage Foundation, and several other manifestations of the Radical Republican Neocon Right?


How do DEMOCRATS possibly benefit from any of the above?

Obviously we do not. Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion that can be reached is that the DLC is a collective of Republican moles designed to destroy the Democratic party from within. As Joseph Stalin once said "To destroy your opposition you must becomethe opposition"
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. ok
Why would the DLC constantly encourage "Democrats" to be weak and spineless and not challenge Republicans, either in spoken word, nor in congrssional votes?

I haven't seen this. Perhaps you have multiple links where this has constantly occured?

Why would the founders of the DLC proclaim the 1994 theft of congress to be a "liberation"? (Al From/Will Marshall - Blueprint magazine 1/95)

Perhaps a poor choice of words (like Howard is prone to do) but if they indeed did say that (and I'd have to see it in it's entirety) then perhaps they were speaking in the same terms that Adrian Wooldridge, reporter for The Economist, said in an article in the Boston Globe, "When a party holds power for too long, it grows fat and happy, it also grows corrupt." The classic example, he pointed out, is the Democratic Party of the 1970s and `80s, which, spoiled by generations of congressional power, "became a party of insiders and deal makers without any sense of the principles they stood for and eventually collapsed" when they were turned out in 1994.

Or perhaps it was in this respect. According to Ruy Teixeira, a fellow at the Center for American Progress and at the Century Foundation, the danger for the dominant party isn't ideological bankruptcy but ideological drift. "Certainly you can make the argument that, if a party's far enough away from the mainstream, if they don't lose they don't get enough impetus to correct their behavior."

Why would DLC controlled Senators vote consistently with the Bush/PNAC/neocon fascist agenda.

Again, show us with links how this has constantly happened (and non-DLC Dems haven't.)

In fact, a thread here not too long ago showed that it's the Blue Dog Dems, not the DLC, that do this.

Why would the DLC hire a man such as Marshall Wittman whose resume includes The Christian Coalition, The Heritage Foundation, and several other manifestations of the Radical Republican Neocon Right?

Perhaps he had a change of heart much like Arianna Huffington, David Brock, Jim Jeffords, and others?
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Actually hiring a man like Wittman would help pick apart the brains
of the fundamentalist political groups now in control of the RNC. This way, Democrats can discuss true family values, such as a working wage, health care, and supporting the environment.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. So do DCL/New Democrats get our names and e-mail addresses
...from the DNC? If so, how come? I don't wish to have my e-mail exposed to non-democratic democrats. I guess Zell Miller can get my stuff and I can't do much about that, but I can send a nasty reply.

Scott Maddox on the other hand has just popped up out of nowhere and is asking for money. I think as a traditional democrat, the likes of Maddox must first tell me who they are, what they believe politically and give me some pretty good basis of why I should consider him worthy of being the democratic candidate for the Florida Governorship, before asking me for money!
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. you mean non-Democratic Democrats like...
John Kerry, John Edwards, Hillary Clinton, Dianne Feinstein...

They get your names from the DNC.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Yes they do.
Because they are supposed to be the Democratic Party Leadership and the Democratic Party has treated them as such. The DNC has been led around by the DLC/New Dems because the DLC/New Dems have tons of money from all the lobbyists.

Now that Dean is trying to wrench away the leadership from these GOPers in DLC/New Dem clothing, the DLC/New Dems are going after Dean.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. What? Where in the hell is this crap coming from?
"Now that Dean is trying to wrench away the leadership from these GOPers in DLC/New Dem clothing, the DLC/New Dems are going after Dean."

Where in the hell are you getting this idea from? Must this all be placed in gamesmanship terms? Must this be a tit-for-tat petty competitiveness? "Oh I know DEAN is winning! I know it! I know it!"

There IS NO COMPETITION HERE. The DLC and the DNC are WORKING TOWARD THE SAME GOAL.

So a DLC'er releases a letter indicating his support for Dean as chairperson, now we're back to this. There is so much conjecture here.

Just read this:

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/6/11/194416/914

Writer.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The DLC only works with the DNC
because it can raise money if it is associated with a major political party even if that party does not stand for the GOP-like policies of the DLC/New Dems. If the DLC/New Dems may be backing off criticising Dean then it could be they realised that they went too far, or that the damage they wanted to cause has been caused and no further action is needed.

No conjecture. There is just a whole lot of distrust in the DLC/New Dems. With good reason.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. But you have now put together this entire "strategy" on behalf of the DLC
when you're not a leader or even a member of the organization.

How do you know when they decide/not decide to work with the DNC?

That is the definition of conjecture.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. No, it is the definition of distrust

Again, there is only one difference between the DLC/New Dems and the GOP, the DLC/New Dems are the enemy within.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. And you still haven't responded to the article, anyway
The DLC is not the enemy. The RNC is the enemy. You may not always agree with the DLC, but the DLC is not out to get Dean.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. The DLC is out to control the Dem party
It consistently says progressives must join with the DLC to beat the RNC.

Not once, not ever has the DLC joined with progressives to beat a common cause. The DLC says to progressives, forget what you want you must give in to what the DLC wants because only together can we win against the RNC.

Well, winning for DLC corporatistic ideas is not winning in my book.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. this is so typical
when you can't back your assertions with facts, you resort to the tired old table pounding and more unsourced allegations.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. because all the good little liberals on DU told him all this
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cajones_II Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. You deny three DLC corporate fundraisers just resigned the DNC?
Over their objections that Dean was favoring individual donations and not keeping corporate donors " happy"?

It's THAT aspect of the DLC, the brokering of corporate cash and favors such as a positive vote on the bankruptcy bill, that I find objectionable.

Let's ask Biden about MBNA, and who brought that contribution into his office.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. excuse me...
1. What does that have to do with the discussion?
2. Why do you claim they were "DLC corporate fundraisers?"
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cajones_II Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Goes directly to the issue
DLC encourages corporate money over individual contributions. You are trying to argue that DLC is not actively involved in fomenting discord, that it is ...what, coincidental?
Each lobbyist who resigned was an active member of the DLC who lobbied large corporations and or their boardmembers.

Within 10 hours the anti-Dean reports began.



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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. proof?
Links?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
26. New Democrats on Line is the website of the DLC
the people whose policies of appeasing and trying not to anger Republicans have led us to where we are today.

They appeal to the yuppie wing of the party: liberal on behavioral issues but overly friendly to big business and multinational corporations.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Is that supposed to attract middle of the road republicans to vote
...democratic? That's a strange strategy! It certainly has not worked in the last two presidential elections, and it appears to be a complete failure on the congressional elections as well as in state and local runs.

So, coming back around to Scott Maddox, who is this guy? What can he offer to working class democrats as a Florida Governor?
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Who is trying to attract GOPers, we can't even get Dems to vote Dem
because the DLC/New Dems keep moving the Democratic party so far to the right that the majority of people stay away because there is no one to represent the people. So most progressives stay home and the two major parties fight over who is going to get the conservatives to vote for them.

Well, the best way to win an election is to stop pushing DLC/New Dem/GOP policies and go out and push policies which will benefit middle America.

The major complaint voters said is that there was no difference between the GOP and the Dems.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. I mean no disrespect in asking, but I'm curious...
How old are you?
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