I can't understand why anyone's opposing the compromise on the fillibuster

[mtnsnake]

unless you happen to be a Republican.

What, you'd rather opt for the other choice?

It's not like we were in a position of strength for Christs sake, and the way I see it, the Dems played the Repukes like a game of chess on this and did pretty damn well considering we had a couple of pawns going against a queen. Yeah, they're calling it a victory for all us, but behind closed doors everyone knows this is a huge moral booster for us democrats. We finally did something right that we can build on, and we did it from a position of weakness, to say the least.

If anything, many of the Republicans were hoping we WOULDN'T compromise, so we'd come off as being whiney little Democratic bitches who didn't want to see the country move on, and so they could stamp us out completely and have the perfect excuse to do so. Thank goodness smarter heads prevailed and we didn't give them the excuse they needed to all but put us into extinction.

Instead of whining because we "sold out", look at it like this is the official start of the Democrat turnaround. Look at it like we may have actually preserved our party for crying out loud. Look at it like for the first time in 4 1/2 years we're on the way up and they're on the way OUT. Look at it like they gave in to us, not the opposite. We did the best with what we had, and we made them play right into our hands on this.

[vi5]

1. The whole thing is predicated on ther republicans keeping their word

Who gets to determine what extreme circumstances are. Does anyone really believe that when bush nominates an Owen or a Gonzales or a Pickering or a Pryor for the Supreme Court that the right is going to say "Well, we promised so we can't put up a fight on this."?

[benburch]

2. We have made a deal with the fascists.

History should tell you why that is a fucking stupid idea.

Beware the Night of The Long Knives!

[halobeam]

4. Yep... Springer is hitting on this right now on AAR

[mtnsnake]

11. If Springer is complaining, he SHOULDN'T be

This is the time to act like it's a victory for us, not whine like little wimps. No wonder we're perceived the way we are sometimes.

[vi5]

15. So the wimps are the ones who wanted us to FIGHT?

I'm not following that logic.

Again, I hope I'm wrong. I really do.

[JRob]

51. How is this a VICTORY????

They're going to vote on all the judges that were the focus of the problem. We haven't one anything, only empowered these idiots.

[mtnsnake]

53. I said it's time to ACT like it's a victory.

Acting like it's a victory is just as important as it actually being one. Everyone wants to be on a winner, so winners we must become.

[JRob]

59. ok i see where your going...

[Alpharetta]

3. I would have preferred it get played out to the endgame

Seeing Congress give up another check and balance to a theocratic platform.

Let the voters see what the ruling party has in mind.

[zipplewrath]

5. Happy you're not the last off the Titanic?

I understand what you want this to be, but the reality is that it was nothing. They get votes on the candidates they want (these were already "extraordinary circumstances") and we get???????

The rest will come up for a vote, it is only a matter of time. And the presidents hand is now fairly free to nominate all manner of idiots because how many times can democrats invoke "extraordinary circumstances"? What happened here is that the Pubs proved they can force the dems to do anything because the dems don't have any ability to stop them. The most they can do is help some recalcitrant Pubs who wanna reign in their own party leadership. And those pubs are only so willing to oppose their own leadership.

[JRob]

Exactly!!! Where we might have shown strength we buckled!

[mtnsnake]

60. Jayeeesus!! The only ones who buckled were the Republicans! n/t

[havocmom]

6. One step at a time. One battle at a time. Sadly, too many here think

they can get EVERYTHING 100% and if they don't they call it a loss.

That kind of thinking, not counting what they do have and whining about what somebody else got, is the same all or nothing attitude we chide neocons for.

In the real world, life is made of shades of gray and you don't think everything gets done on one day

[Itsthetruth]

10. Here's Why

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[GreenArrow]

13. some shades of grey are so dark

they are virtually indistinguishable from black.

[mtnsnake]

14. Exactly. It's also called being realistic and doing

the best with what you've got. It's called being selfless, too, and thinking of what's good for all of us. Couldn't agree with you more.

[BlueManDude]

17. What did the Dems gain here?

They were on the defensive the whole time. In exchange for the GOP not turning the Senate into a complete rubber stamp for AWOL (as opposed to a virtual rubber stamp) 3 unqualified lunatics will sit for life on the Fed bench. Like if Mike Tyson came up to you and said "I won't punch you in the face if you give me those three pieces of candy." You give him the candy and he promises not to threaten you in the future. Did you "win" that exchange?

I'm not bitching about the Dems here - there's essentially nothing they can do in the face of a rabid GOP determined to actually excercise their power. But I'm not gonna celebrate either. Frist looks like a fool but so what. They get more lunatics on the bench.

My sense is there's a lot less here than meets the eye. This "agreement" means nothing.

[mtnsnake]

23. Perhaps our political lives and a chance

to build upon this, which is sure a lot better than no chance at all.

I'd rather have a chance to fillibuster 2 judges out of 4, then none.

[BlueManDude]

26. Bottom line is that the threat of "going nuclear" worked for the GOP

They will get judges who were going nowhere in the confirnation process. Given the success of Bush's judicial nominees (what like 5 rejected out of 215) what difference would forcing the GOP to "go nuke" have made? Why not force them to expose their radical tendencies?

Do you really think the Dems are going to be in a rush to block any more nominees (not that they've blocked that many anyway)?

Bush wins here. THe RW agenda rolls on.

[havocmom]

32. BINGO

Folks, the GOP is in the cat bird seat because they have been working FOR DECADES to change attitudes in America in a slow and logical progression, building of small victories until they were in position to win the big issues. If they had tried to get all their shit through at once, they would have become extinct!

We have to address ALL parts of the problem and ALL facets of the population. We have to go about the slow business of making our points in a logical manner which people can grasp. And most people grasp slowly.

You can't take a baby and teach it to drive and get a job without taking the time for all the developmental steps along the way. Changing the culture and political climate is the same.

Some of us can see how things need to go. Most must be lead. The GOP has been actively leading people down a path with lies and distortions until the truth seems completely implausible to a huge part of the population. We have to undo that and it will take time and measured steps.

[JRob]

54. Whereas I agree generally, with this issue I can not...

Frist has already stated that he'll bring the nuc option back even though Reed has said that it's gone "forever". These guys were threatening to change the rules to propel their agenda. We have just shown them that we're powerless to stop them and I fear that this is far from over.

[NWHarkness]

7. Thank You

I completely agree.

[BlueManDude]

8. 3 far, far right judges will now sit for life on the fed bench

Frist may look like an ass and be a big loser but the bottom line is this whole "nuke option" put 3 judges on the bench who weren't gonna make it otherwise. I have a hard time seeing this as a victory.

[JRob]

56. ...and they were the POINT to begin with! So where the "WIN"? n/t

[sendero]

9. Oh come on....

.... if they'd have wanted to, they could have just as easily refused to compromise, blamed it on the Dems, and taken the nuclear option.

We'll never know if they had the votes to actually do it now.

And all we got was to deny an upordownvote for a couple pissants.

When the SC appointment comes up, the slate will be CLEAN and the Reps will do what it takes to get whoever they want on the court. You can count on that, and if you don't think so where the hell have you been for 5 years?

[mtnsnake]

19. You just proved my point

"if they'd have wanted to, they could have just as easily refused to compromise, blamed it on the Dems, and taken the nuclear option..

That's just it. Somehow, we put them into a position of not doing this, and for that, I'm proud as a Democrat that they didn't LET the Republicans push us over the edge on this.

[sendero]

25. If they're going to do it anyway..

.... let them do it before 2006.

Let some Dems with a fucking brain in their head frame the issue not as "Senate tradition", which the average American could care fuckall about - but as "ramming through extemist judges", which they can understand.

The American people were solidly against removing the filibuster. They are eventually going to do it anyway, let's get on with it.

The only argument that holds any water for me would be the possibility that over time, more Rep senators will come to realize that the nuclear option is wrong. I suppose that is possible.

[mtnsnake]

31. I agree the American people

were against removing the filibuster, or I sure hope they were, but I also realize they weren't about to put this up to a public referendum.

I just think (and hope) that as days move on, we're going to see lots more in-fighting among Republicans because of this, than we will Democrats, as long as we look at it like it's a positive for us.

Our next step should be to make this all about the perception that it's a plus for us Democrats, so as to try and get the rest of the country on board with us in other matters in the future. People want to belong to a winner, and this is a start. Peace.

[sendero]

36. On that point I can agree..

.... the compromise almost certainly did not sit well with large numbers of senate Reps. To the extent that this results in some serious infighting, it is a win.

[Goblinmonger]

41. Infighting?

They are laughing their asses off at how weak the Dems were on this issue. "Hey, we are going to go nuclear." "Oh, please don't. Let us give you some of the nominees that you wouldn't get with the filibuster just to save the filibuster." "OK, thanks. Nice doing buisness with you chummmmmmmmmmmmmmP!"

[JRob]

58. They didn't have the votes to go Nuc or they would have.

This "compromise" saved Frist from a major embarrassment. They're posturing for his Presidential run in '08.

[still_one]

12. because it puts off the inevitable

If the repukes don't like what we are doing, they will reinstitute the nuclear option. They have gained 3 extreme judges without a fight, and we have gained a delay

On the other hand, we are a minority party right now, and by doing what we did, we can save our strength to fight a radical Supreme Court candidate

I am very mixed. In one respect, if this would have gone through, and the repugs moved their extreme agenda forward, in 2006, it could very well backlash against them as an extreme party

[reality based]

16. It would have been nice to have busted the nominees

with Republican votes. But I'm not sure we had them. I just don't ever want to see or hear that smarmy Joe Lieberman exulting ever again.

[CTyankee]

18. crocodile tears from the Rethugs?

Methinks they doth protest too much.

[blue sky at night]

20. I was feeling better about things until.........

I read the Buzzflash Editorial........check it out.

[ClintonTyree]

21. Yes, I would have opted for the other choice.....

if we lost the filibuster totally, so what? We can only use it in "extreme" circumstances and the Pukes will define the meaning of "extreme".

We should have fought the fight. For once we should have fought and not "compromised".

What did we have to lose? The White House, The Senate, The House, The Supreme Court.....all Republican controlled. When you don't have anything, you don't have anything to lose. This would have been a chance to show everyone that the Dems have a spine and wouldn't back away from a fight. JUST ONCE, I'd like to see the Dems take the gloves off and give as good as we get. As it stands, we bent over and took another one in the....

The democratic party barely exists as it is. The Pukes have walked all over us for years now, and it will never stop unless we actually get our nose bloodied in a good knock down, drag out fight.

To think that bush is going to "advise and consent" with the Senate is pure naivete. To think that Reslugs are going to play by the rules on this is pure naivete.

[CWebster]

22. Well there is the path of Lieberman

and there is the perspective of Feingold.

What does that tell you about what constitutes a compromise?

[mtnsnake]

27. That tells me that there's a lot more gray area in matters like this

than sometimes meets the eye....just like was pointed out in post #6.

It should tell you that Liebermann isn't horrible 100% of the time and Feingold isn't perfect 100% of the time.

Liebermann has disappointed me, too, more than once, but I'm not going to simply dismiss this compromise as evil just because he had something to do with it.

[CWebster]

28. You could make the same argument for Bush

and argue compromise while losing everything you stand for and against.

[mtnsnake]

40. Please offer an alternative

as to something else we could've done, considering the position of weakness we were fighting from.

Instead of losing the ability to fight completely, we salvaged SOMETHING and for the time being we have kept Checks and Balances somewhat intact, albeit hanging by a thread.

Democrats will come out of this perceived as the party who saved "checks and balances", despite whatever you want to think.

In the long run, that'll be to our advantage and something to brag about in future elections.

[Goblinmonger]

42. I got an alternative for you.

Make the republicans look like power hungry asshats. Make them take away the filibuster and then shut down the Senate. Refuse to give unanimous consent on ANYTHING. Guess how long it would take to read just one of the bills put before them. Don't show up for votes so they don't have a quorum and can't vote.

AND THEN, AND THIS IS KEY, STARTING ACTING LIKE A FUCKING OPPOSITION PARTY. When you are doing the above, go on every media outlet that will hear you and shout loudly why you are doing this. Make everyone know that the republicans are screwing our rights.

Or we could just bend over for our paddling and let them have their nominees and hope for better things in the future. That worked really well leading up to the 2004 election. Oh, wait.....

[mtnsnake]

44. That's an alternative, albeit an extreme one that would never happen

Making them take away the filibuster, then shutting down the Senate, and refusing to give unanimous consent on anything would sure play right into their hands as far as making us look like sore losers on a mission.

Instead, we've preserved our ability to at least fight future fights for the time being, and more importantly, we've successfully sent the message that the administration's policies of usurping powers will not be tolerated.

[Goblinmonger]

46. Newsflash

We are losers. They won the election, the house, the senate, and soon the supreme court. We can either continue to let them have their way or start acting like an opposition party.

[mtnsnake]

48. Speak for yourself

If you want to consider yourself as a loser because we just PRESERVED the right to filibuster, then I don't know what else to tell ya.

Preserving the right to filibuster was a win for us. Just pay attention to Bob Frist's body language. That tells you everything you need to know about who "won or lost" this.

[CWebster]

43. No we didn't

They got what they wanted without being exposed for abuse of power and they still can challenge what "extreme" constitutes--AS IF the already voted-down nominees weren't extreme.

When the Right portrays Dems as obstructionist and successfully broadcasts the meme, why is it then a Democratic win to capitulate to the bullying instead of making a stand?

How is that ever a formula to win by making an alternative case?

[derby378]

24. Wake up - Palpatine secured the coup, and now he's going #66 on the Jedi

That's what we're seeing happen now. Just you wait - when Priscilla Owen gets confirmed today, a lot of the current supporters of the DLC compromise will be wallowing in sackcloth and ashes.

[TnDem]

29. Sure

Sure, we had no good options, but when the Senate rubber stamps Owen, Pryor and Brown to the US Appellate court, then they are a hop and a skip from SCOTUS. How can someone like Priscilla Owen be filibustered two weeks from now as "extreme" when she was given the green light today? How can any Democratic Senator expect to hold a wisp of a filibuster of these three Judegs when theywere given a green light yesterday as essentially NOT being extreme?

Do you honestly expect the 7 "moderates" to go along with any filibuster of someone that that voted to JUST confirm? How could any of them have a shred of credibility on the issue? And even if they did filibuster Owen, (after just confirming her for this post), the Pugs would immediately say that the deal was "broken" and would start nuclear optioning all over again.

Folks, this is not a win by any stretch...

[CWebster]

35. Good work in thinking it through

That is the problem--folks are buying this compromise bi-partisan crap and they are not thinking it through.

Every time they buy into this unity meme or this let's-get-past this-and-move-on as if it was a healing process instead of brushing it all under the rug they give the Right a pass.

Who wants unity at the price of capitulation?

And here is the rub:

Don't complain about anything --Iraq, Social security, bankruptcy unfairness, because you just endorced it by your willingness to compromise.

[quaoar]

30. Thank you sir. May I have another?

Whack.

Thank you sir. May I have another?

Whack.....

[rhett o rick]

33. Oh Come On. We gained nothing. This compromise was like tell Hitler

that he could have Poland if he promises to stay out of France. As soon as the Demo's try to filibuster something important, the deal is off. Wake up, you can't compromise with the devil. If the judges they got aren't extreme then what is? What good is the filibuster if the Dem's can only use it when the White House says so. We have to draw the line somewhere, and stand and fight.

[RethugAssKicker]

34. I disagree

What did we get? the right to fillibuster only in "extraordinary cicumstances"???

THey got 3 of the most RW nuts to sit on the bench for life... And the others are coming to a vote fairly soon.... How often can we fillibuster... and who determines what is extraoridinary circumstances?.... Bush will continue to send us the most RW nominees, and we may be able to stop one but thats all... We've already agreed to use the fillibuster sparingly...

Once again we got it in the ass!

[mtnsnake]

38. No, we got the right to fillibuster PERIOD

and all we gave in on is saying we'd vote on 2 of the 4 judges.

By "compromising" we kept the right to filibuster in the future. Don't buy this nonsense that that only being able to filibuster in extreme cases is a bad thing. We can filibuster, and if the repukes deem that a future matter is not extreme, then that will only play into our hands, too, because THEN things will have to be explained as to WHY we think that a certain matter is extreme and that will give the repukes negatory press that they don't want to see happen.

on edit: left out the word "all" at first.

[Goblinmonger]

39. Oh come on

"we kept the right to filibuster in the future" YIPEE. Oh wait, it is only on "extreme circumstances." Guess what? Owen is pretty damn extreme and she gets through. Oh, and guess what else? Anytime the Dems start to rattle the filibuster swords, the Repugs will just smuggly shake their heads and say that they are going against the compromise. "Everthing is extreme to these silly Dems. Why can't they just live with out agreement?" And the BushCo yesmen in this country will shake their heads.

WE ARE FUCKED. This is the beginning of the end. You can't convince me differently.

I have been saying this for months, when are the dems going to start acting like a fucking OPPOSITION party and stop acting like a fraternity pledge trying to get into the club. Galloway showed us the way and we just shat on him.

[mtnsnake]

45. Wow, talk about doom and gloom

WE ARE FUCKED. This is the beginning of the end. You can't convince me differently

This is NOT the beginning of the end. It's the beginning of the beggining, and a positive one I might say!

[Goblinmonger]

47. Wow, talk about Pollyanna

You tell me how many times the Dems get to filibuster right-wing freak nominees before the Repugs start saying that the Dems are breaking the agreement. One, two, certainly not more than three. That means that Cuckoo-bananas gets to appoint a shitload of people that will be on the bench FOR FUCKING LIFE. We're fucked.

[mtnsnake]

49. Better we preserved the right to filibuster than

to not have that ability at all.

One small step at a time, and this just happens to be a big step for us. The alternative was the nuclear option, and I for one am not willing to bite off my nose to spite my face. I'd rather see us win in the future by taking small positive steps, one at a time...while the Republicans start falling apart at the seams.

[Goblinmonger]

57. You didn't answer the question.

How many times do we get to filibuster before they threaten to "go nuclear" again? And then what do we do? We now have a history of backing down.

I don't think we have preserved the filibuster. I think that the Republicans have actually ended the filibuster without having to piss off the American people in the process. The Dems are powerless to stop anyone further without looking like "deal busters."

[bowens43]

37. It's not a compromise, it's a sell out.

The repugs get everything they want and the Dems get nothing in return. If the Dems ever decide to filibuster a nominee (and they probably won't), the 'nuclear option' will be exercised at that time.

There is no room for integrity in the Republican party. When push comes to shove they will do as their leader tells them.

At least if the filibuster for nominees had been banned the Dems may have had the guts to stop any and all legislation proposed by this abominable bunch of neo-cons thugs who control congress.

[EndElectoral]

50. Read the Feingold link...Your post is naive if you think this is a Dem vic

[mtnsnake]

52. Among other things, where did I say this is a victory? What I said is

"they're calling it a victory for all us, but behind closed doors everyone knows this is a huge moral booster for us democrats."

Also in regards to the word victory, I said, "This is the time to act like it's a victory for us, not whine like little wimps."

I don't know about you, but I'm out for all I can get on this filibuster thing, and that means worrying about our perception coming off as positive. I simply want us Democrats to be PERCEIVED as coming out on top, because that will act like a catalyst in getting more and more people to jump on our bandwagon. I'm a little sick and tired of so many people acting like Democrats are a bigger enemy than Republicans. It's time to stop and take notice that this is a time to be proud that our party finally took a step in a positive direction. It isn't a time to bash them for preserving our last means of defense when it comes to checks and balances.


on edit: NOW I'll say that I think it's a victory for us, though

[Eliot Spitzer 2006]

55. Congratulations to Robert Byrd for saving the "Republic"

I had to laugh when I heard Byrd say that "the republic has been saved." I think he needs to retire.