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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 10:55 PM
Original message
So... Can anyone recommend a new country to move to?
We have officially let our country be taken over.

I don't feel free anymore. We have terrorists running our country. Our Democratic congress people have either drank the kool aid, their life threatened, or were always part of the plan.

Our ex-country is a cesspool of air pollution, rocket fuel-ed water, and food that can now show the temperature (i.e. mercury).

So, I want to move. I would like to be free, breathe clean air, drink clean water, eat safe food, take safe prescription drugs if needed, have a job, have health care, and, you know, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Can you please recommend a new country. Canada first comes to mind. Just afraid how close it is to the ex-usa.

Thanks, you mother fuckers in Congress, for killing my America.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. take me with you!!!!!!!!
the cats and I don't eat much and we're quiet, at least I am

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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. French Polynesia...
They grow this cool fruit called noni.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Is it expensive to live there?
I am open to all ideas.

My America ended today. We are now in nazi america.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
36. What specifically happened today?
Maybe I missed it.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Real ID act
Part of the $83 Billion for Iraq...

Isn't wonderful that our congress co-mingles everything into one bill.

It is like having a bill that says "Bill 123 - provides $100 billion for education, oh and we have to kill one of every 5 children going to school".

These mother fuckers approve of it and oh one in 5 kids are put to death. Oh, and have 100 out of 100 senators vote yes because it is for education....

There is no more common sense... common sense isn't common anymore.
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medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. son is moving to London
and called me on Mother's Day to say he will never be returning to USA again.
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. I am so sorry
It makes me cry for you to hear that, what a sorrowful message to deliver on Mother's Day.

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medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. I'm happy!
Get to visit every year!
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. Go in May or June.
Nothing beats a walk with through the blooming tulips in St. James Park.
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CC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Belize n/t




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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You have a nice family.....
What kind of bird is Crackers?
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CC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Thank you and Crackers
is a noisy,messy and very lovable Red Lory.




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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I have two Quakers and two Sun Conyers. One Conyer is named...
Snoopdog...hence my logon!
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CC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Most of mine are rescues
so they came with their names. I think I would of been a bit more original than Harley & Crackers. You can almost tell the non rescues or I got to name ones by their names...Zaiden, Pixel, Puzzles, Jinx, Snickers, Karma, Butterball (I swore I took in my last found cat before he showed up. He lived in my yard all summer and was taken to the vet and let in around Thanksgiving.) Though must admit we have hit our limit on pets and send anymore strays to rescues. I never go near a ferret or bird rescue anymore. Always one there that will zap you with their magic and end up coming home with you. I have a vet savings account for shots etc and then one for emergencies. I bet all yours are beautiful. Not too many Quakers around here but I understand they are great birds. I know a Sun Conyer named Frisco that thinks he is human. (And we almost believe he is too he is so smart and talkative) He is never caged, rides next to his human in the Mustang and calls people on the phone.



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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:56 PM
Original message
Thankyou for your story!
My 'winged angels' are never caged. And SnoopDog used to go 'woof-woof'.

They are such great critters. Snoop and his friend Tawny (the other Conyer) dive bomb into my shirt and they just have a ball. They sleep, play, and fight!.

Sam, my Quaker is very smart and a great bird. Sam's friend Sasha is a 'space case' but she is the most docile of them all

Thanks for taking care of so many of our four legged and winged friends!


And thanks for some bird love!
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
70. Yes, I've heard that too!
Edited on Thu May-12-05 11:06 AM by KansDem
Worked at a small college. One of the student assistants in the department I worked was from Belize. Through conversations with her, it sounded like Belize would be a nice, decent place to visit (and live).

on edit: This was 15 years ago, but I assume very little has changed there...
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CC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
88. My brother lived there
about 20 years ago and loved it. And that was when refugees were coming in. Since then they have nationalized the forest to preserve. Anyone I have talked to loves it there and the weather is perfect.




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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Two of my friends just moved
They are not coming back...they sold everything. They said they do not even want to vote or even hear about anything that is going on here.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Where did they go?
How did they do it? Meaning, what about bank accounts? Passports of course. Moving furniture or did they sell Everything?
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. They took all of the money
Edited on Tue May-10-05 11:19 PM by Donna Zen
and bought a small hotel. They took little furniture.

Dominican Republic

Great country

I live less than an hour from Canada...not safe, but in the woods.

edit: yes, they sold everything except the dogs :-)
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. Puerto Rico
You can get all the goods without actually being in the "real" states. Plus, it's pretty cheap and a great hub for island adventures when you want.

It's a start.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Costa Rica
educated, middle class Central American country. Good health care system, NO MILITARY
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Are their citizens friendly to ex-americans?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. i am following you here snoop, me too, costa rico is a place
my friend has family. it is warm climate like husband likes. we have thought of that area. the other day i was going ot have a serious conversation with husband, if he can truly be open to seeing the sign of maybe having to relocate to a different country if need be
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Justpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
68. The Tico Times
The Tico Times is the English language paper in Costa Rica.
You might want to read up a bit before you consider moving
there.

I've been looking for a place to move to also, but ruled
Costa Rica out after reading a few issues of their paper.
During the Schiavo fiasco, they had an article in there
about how such thing would never happen in CR as they had
religious principles written into the constitution.
Then a couple of weeks later they had a lead article about
how a couple of young baton twirlers in a parade were ticketed
or something because their skirts were too short. Yes, they
have modesty police there.

So I decided to keep looking. Why jump from one pack of religious
nuts to another?
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cestpaspossible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. Burkina Faso is supposed to be nice...
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I never thought of Africa... Could be interesting...!
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cestpaspossible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
43. Actually though, I'd encourage you to stay
we need your help
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. I am a true fighter but I see no leaders...
Unfortunately I am not a leader. I can do almost anything (because I am extremely persistent - like Edison 1% inspiration 99% perspiration).

We don't have anybody in congress on our side..

I am absolutely not a quitter but how can we fight? Please please tell me how and I literally will give up everything I have to take back my America.

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cestpaspossible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. How you fight
is by not moving to Burkina Faso, and just getting up every day and doing what ever you can. Of course you know that. Look, you can say you're not a quitter, but the fact is you are here talking about quitting. I say stay or go but I think the whining is tiresome. Just mho.

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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. If this is tiresome to you, please don't be bothered to reply...!
Just my humble opinion...

By the way, what is mho?
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ireland or New Zealand
but I hear it's rather difficult to get into New Zealand.

Canada takes at least a year to get into.

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nickgutierrez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I've heard the exact opposite about NZ
Namely that they're actively taking in immigrants. I could be wrong, though.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. I just did a quick look up on NZ....
You have to pay an application fee and you may or may not be accepted...

At this juncture I am willing to take a chance.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. australia use to be hard to get in, husband looked into that
years ago. but new zealand. if you can get in there, tat would be high on my list. if you do research and find anything interesting lets us know. are you retired age, or still looking for employment. husband does computers, that can be done anywhere. funny dsl so important to you. lol what we consider when looking at places in mountains
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I am a computer guy myself and need DSL or equivalent access to the ...
internets... It is a criteria now but hey maybe it just isn't that important anymore...
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Eureka Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Not so hard if you have skills or a 'special talent'
Australia is crying out for people at the moment (except the brown ones in boats, but that's another issue, unfortunately)

And, if you are a permanent resident in NZ or Aus you can live and recieve benefits in either (maybe not all benefits, but pretty much all AFAIK)

We have a points qualification system, get enough points and away you go. You can see if you qualify at www.dimia.gov.au

As for your requirements
I would like to be free - Well, we go close
breathe clean air - check, and it's easier to migrate if you want to live in 'regional areas', ie, not a capital city

drink clean water- umm, we don't have a lot of water, but what we do have tends to be clean, certainly not as bad as I hear the US is

eat safe food- check,

take safe prescription drugs if needed - Only if you want them subsidized by the Govt. We have a benefits system for this that means a cap on the cost of perscriptions, even if they cost 1000s you pay 30 or so

have a job - I find it easy enough, although others may differ

have health care - check

Despite our right wing govt at the moment, I would say society averages about the US Dems, or a little left of that.

And, I'll buy you a beer.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. hey thanks for this information
the whole family agrees on australia. husband has a computer business. we have the money we could start a business up. snoop you want a job. lol lol

this is excellent. i really was thinking about this the other day. i am going to check this out. appreciate.
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Eureka Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. No Problem (and also in response to Snoop just below...)
I'm in IT too.

here is the skills list, http://www.dimia.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf

as you can see the skill required is (almost) "must have had a job"

I'm not sure which bit of computing your husband is into, but if you want to see businesses for sale www.realcommercial.com.au and if you want a regular job www.seek.com.au The only places to shop.

We also have a wide range of habitats, in case you prefer one climate to the other.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. eureka, you are just awesome
Edited on Wed May-11-05 12:36 AM by seabeyond
thank you. all in bed now, but tomorrow evening will let husband play with this stuff. he has for the longest time wanted to relocate to australia. now i am jazzed. i am so glad you came along and posted.

and no going u.s. way either. no hiring any yeehaws to be president
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Eureka Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. He he, only Deputy Yeehaws :-)
Oh, and no president either, YET. Out here being a Republican means you want to do away with the monarchy, and we have those from the left and the right. Down with QEII!

But really, if it moves too right here you can use Aus residency to move to NZ anytime, so it really is a plan with a fallback.

Our Govts can tend left or right, but the underlying social vibe tends left (thus a reasonable health care system, subsidised pharmacuticals, etc etc)

On the whole Left Leaning Americans would fit very well in Australian society. I hope whereever you end up works out well, and even if you don't move here, come and visit.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. Thanks Eureka... I am serious... I need a new place to live...
My ex-country has been infiltrated by evil people.

I work very hard, care for all living things, care for the environment, and just want to enjoy the remainder of my life.

Thanks again - I will check out the link you provided.

And I'll take you up on that beer!

Australian women are awesome - right?
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. It does matter how long it takes...
We don't know when 'they' might closed OUR boarders for real.

Immigrants into america? It may be a thing of the past - oh, silly me, where else will we get our working class?
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Flucius Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
52. That is correct
NZ is capping their population at 5 million. They are just over 4 million right now. It is also difficult to get in unless you have some kind of marketable job skills. Although I've been told if you're a lazy refugee claimant who just wants to leech off welfare, you have a much better chance. :D
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Enquiringkitty Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. I have seriously thought about Canada. I travel for a living so I could
still work the same as I do now and I wouldn't have to leave all of my stuff behind. I plan to spend next summer there to see what it is like.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Any part of Canada that you know of that has...
alot of trees and hiking and DSL (for my internet access)?

Or at least can recommend?
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Enquiringkitty Donating Member (721 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Most of Canada has all of that. From Toronto west, it is very much like
the U.S. I don't know about the eastern part of the country. I have been told that the french speaking part is rather different ... more european. I have been to Toronto and Thunder Bay and just loved it. I need to learn more about their governmental policies and their social views, but what I have seen so far is something I can live with.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. i am afraid they are too joined at hip with u.s.
and it is cold. i would like it, rest of family likes warm. i took a test though, we could get in
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
87. Vancouver is the place to be in Canada, IMO. n/t
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
39. British Columbia is gorgeous
so long as you can handle a bit of rain.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
69. Lots of trees?
Not in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, but Ontario, western Alberta, and British Columbia, they have all the trees a person would ever hope to hike past.

And it's a fully modern country, so yes, they have DSL.

Actually, did you know that the U.S. is NOT the country with the highest penetration of broadband? That honor goes to South Korea. The cheapest broadband service is in Japan.
So there are two areas where the U.S. is not Number One.
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vman13 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. With All Do Respect Sir...
...It would be best if you stayed. We need all the help we can get if we want to make this country right again. I understand your disillusionment but, we all need to stay strong. The conservative take over provides all the more reason to stay.

When ever I get discouraged I think of this great quote by Carl Schurz,"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right."

We can put things right again, just give it time.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Welcome to DU....
I am truly a fighter but I don't/can't fight this battle myself. We have 48 percent of the voting public you thinks everything is wonderful. Others are more interested in American Idol (whatever the fuck that is - never have watched it).

I would, I WOULD do anything to take back MY AMERICA. But how, my friend, how do we do it. It is not that we lost - more, how do we fight? We would need all 290 million people minus the idiots, say 20 million people, to stomp on them.

Please, please present me a way that I and we can take back our america.

FYI - america in now in lower case letters with my way of thinking.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
72. Never Give Up Hope, and Work For It
Edited on Thu May-12-05 11:28 AM by Amonester
Print flyers about the U.K. secret memo and highlight all their LIES.
Specify what the PNAC is, who they are (include their site's address).
Direct the readers to the pdf doc. there, and the "new Pearl Harbor."
Include information about who prescott * was when he financed Hitler.


There are so many other "hidden" information about these gangsters.

Find new creative ways to get it out there, use DU as you New Media and make sure nobody "sees" you, and don't leave any fingerprints behind. Then, only after doing all this, if nothing worked (I doubt nothing will, because after all, you guys are supposed to be the experts in succeeding a Revolution: and also, keep this one as a peaceful, DEMOCRATIC one), you'd be "allowed" to look for a new country (won't happen: the key is INFORMATION).

Stick posters around telephone posts! Even around trees! ANYTHING!

Never Give Up Hope! Every single second counts!

:thumbsup:
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-05 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
27. I am too old to fight
I look to immigrate to a country where I can have religious freedom, freedom from persecution, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly...does anyone know of somewhere?
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. That use to be our america....
Maybe there can be pockets of civilization here in america where the american nazis won't care to venture - for thise who have to stay.

I am just afraid....afraid what these terrorists we call our government will do to us - the real americans.

There is almost nothing I won't do to take back my America.
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SGBL Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
49. Any EU nation, NZ, Canada, Russia, Japan
all are good.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
50. you're like the majority of my classmates
and me, to be honest.

most of the 20 somethings and early 30 somethings i meet in college are ready to get the heck outta dodge. they see no prosperity here, only an upcoming 4th reich. many are studying foreign languages, a lot are looking into living and working abroad. the study abroad program has been the most full it has ever been these past 5 years. classmates are openly speaking about their desire to "get the fuck off this continent!"

i have decided to try for japan or france. a change of pace sounds fun. perhaps spain, germany, or netherlands. who knows. all i know is that i agree with that one quote from forget his name about right after the treaty of versailles, "going to go the the french riviera and watch the whole world go to hell."

i think it's a great idea, fighters here in america are going to need resources for the revolution (i honestly believe it's just a matter of time now, sadly), so ex-pat brothers and sisters are going to be essential in getting stuff in and funding the fight.

2006 determines the last hurrah, when the votes are rigged for the last time and the reich finally puts the last threads into place. hopefully disaster will be averted, but it seems to be a karmic thing, fated to be the last gasp of fascism. oh well, hope i'm wrong, but i ain't gonna set all my plans on hope, not while i'm still capable of making choices.
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vman13 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Aren't We All Being Just A Little Dramatic???
All this talk of Reichs is pretty unfounded. The Nazis perfected Evil. Names like Hitler, Heydrich and Himmler are synonymous with Evil. As Jon Stewert put it, "the Nazis worked hard at being Evil." The Repubs are petty, conniving, and mean spirited but definitely not Evil. Let's not give the Repubs that much credit.

Please, tell me when this "america" that everyone is talking about existed. We forget that it was just 80 years ago that women were allowed to vote(at least nationally). It wasn't until 1964 that congress passed a meaningful Civil Rights Act. The fact is, this "america" never existed. I've learned relatively recently that American History is a series of injustices and crimes. Everyday for now on gives us the opportunity to make America that much better; to make amends for our sins. The Repubs are simply a road block in this effort. We can't let them stop us. We can't let them undue the 50 or 40 years of progress this country has made.

If you leave now, then the Repubs truly will win. Simply by giving voice to your opinions and engaging Repubs in adversarial debate do you undermine their attempts to shut out minority voices.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. nothing's perfect in reality, not even 'perfect evil'
there's always room for improvement, adopting greater range and diversity in depravity. hitler germany was very bad, but i wouldn't call it the perfection of evil. stalin russia gives it a mighty run for its money, especially in body count. and in terms of psychological torture and depravity the heights of aristocratic decadence in many societies can paint a living hell blinding in cruel sensations.

now, let's put the silly little top 50 billboard countdown list of evil and deal with what we have now. america is becoming fascist, america is the embodiment of crushing gluttony, directly tied to the suffering of millions (possibly billions), america throws into the gamble of the *entire human race* in the favor of an unsustainable and outright disasterous energy situation - even when solutions are viable right now, america is playing with blank checks for a chance at permanent world hegemony risking the entire delicate balance of interconnected commerce (which will crush billions of souls if thrown out of whack). that's huge, it's an unbearably large responsibility to realize. and we are actively trying to throw the world into chaos (not even to talk about nuke prolif, terror prolif, theocratic takeover of huge nuke supply, restarting a potential crusade, etc).

no, i disagree. it isn't melodramatic. i believe it is accurate, and deadly serious. and the most interesting thing about it... possibly salvageable. for as crazy as america has been, it always had a strange duality about it. it always had a strain of about half of itself that desperately tries to save america from itself. that is what i think stuns the rest of the world. we could so easily be a behemoth embodiment of evil, and yet there's such a strong streak of resistance in us, a desperation to be loved, to be the underdog, to be the good guy.

but here's the catch. all resistance needs a network of support. and networks need tethers all over the place. and good-hearted americans, of the sane strain of our politics, need to be seeded into the world to build a network of tethers to aid those who fight at home in their hours of need. for i believe the pendulum has swung too far and karmic lesson of the last gasp of fascism is being played - it's not a matter if civil war can be avoided, it's a matter when and how it will play out. we are going to need allies and good representatives are an important start.

and no, i'm being quite generous; the classmates that i come across are far less kind about their assessment. little more and they'd be clawing the ground screaming to reach any border out of here. it's really that bad.
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aaronnyc Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. There is a lot of revisionist history going around
Frankly, America has always been kind of fucked up. There seems to be a lot of nostalgia going around here, for an America which never existed. America has never completely lived up to its ideals.

Our civil liberties, for example, have never been as protected as safe as people like to believe. Some examples of this are:

_The Sedition Act of 1798 - under which opponents of the Federalist Gov't were imprisoned.
_Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War - This undid freedom of speech and freedom of the press.
_The Espionage Act- Under this guise Wilson had anti-War proponents arrested during WWI. He even banned the Nation magazine, accusing it of being treasonous. Even after the War he had 10,000 legal aliens jailed without charges or trial.
_The Japanese Internment Camps during WWII.

I don't know how people can honestly look at U.S. history and say that the U.S. was a great moral country before Bush, then suddenly became an evil unjust nation when he took office. This kind of talk makes for good sound bites, but ignores the reality of U.S. history. The unfortunate truth is that Bush has done a lot of bad - but all of it has a precedence in U.S. history.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #56
78. very true, there's a norman rockwell vision out there...
and it's an america that never existed.

but america is odd in the sense of great world powers in that it rarely dived headlong and irredeemably into evil. there's regularly been a large group of dissent, especially when our motives are amoral. they may not have always succeeded at first, but they've managed to change the nation just in time before the whole experiment had to be scrapped and started over again. (slavery was one of the most extreme situations and succeeded in sundering the country; not a good example, but surprisingly we survived)

that said, it's only been 200 years, and all things eventually fail. perhaps a huge house cleaning is overdue.
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
79. one hundred - 100 -
senators voted for everyone of us to carry NATIONAL ID/s w/ radio frequency encoded. Your every move, purchase, medical appointment, residence will B tracked and limited by this ID. ONE HUNDRED senators - not ONE voted against it. No Feingold, no Boxer, no Byrd, no Kennedy, no Jeffords - NOT ONE....get it?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #50
71. A friend of mine said in her Christmas letter that
her second daughter, who spent her junior year in England, is planning to return after graduation and take teacher certification training, since elementary teachers are a "shortage occupation."

I really think that the U.S. is going to be undergoing a silent brain drain.
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SoCalifer Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
53. Well........
I would be inclined to move also, but it is my opinion that the root of this fascist disease is corporatism, and wherever you move, the cancer will sooner or later get to you.

So it is my sad conclusion that one or only two things will cure us of this disease. Either a mass country wide organized general strike until the disease completely surrenders, or a second American revolution.

We the people and we alone are ultimately responsible for our country, and nobody else but us can restore it back.

In the mean time, I think San Francisco would be the best place to stay, if you stay here in America.






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harpo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
55. Venezuela is starting to sound pretty good
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
57. UAE, if you want economic opportunity
and the chic modernity of Dubai
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
58. Someplace warm--but not too warm
And someplace where it isn't necessary to travel long distances - to avoid the coming energy blowback.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
59. We are looking at........
Belgium, Costa Rico, and Mexico.......My husband is not NEARLY as political as I am and it was his idea. We have a 3 year old to protect. We want her to live free, and that isn't going to happen here. My husbands father has cancer, otherwise I think we would already be gone.
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snowbird42 Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. Panama
Ive heard that they welcome Americans. Have a friend who is moving there. Im going to do some research.
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snowbird42 Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. found this link
http://www.movetopanama.com/index.html

We need to find a place that wants us
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. bookmarked.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #61
74. thank you!!!!!
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
63. I'm liking Vancouver
Bavaria and Switzerland.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
65. Ireland!! Part of the EU, English speaking, great economy
Edited on Thu May-12-05 09:02 AM by demo dutch
lots of jobs
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The Blue Knight Donating Member (555 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Good thing our founding forefathers weren't defeatists.
You know, our country is a lot greater than some oil tycoon from Texas. Our country goes through shifts, and in a few years, the Republicans will have squandered all they had, because Christians will be in a minority. As will angry white males.

I'm sick of people acting like we're living in Nazi Germany. I still think America is the greatest country in the world, and I may only be 18---but I wouldn't choose to live any other place in the world.

Are there flaws with America? Sure. I'll be the first one to say there is---but I believe in fighting. I'm sick of seeing my country bashed as the Fourth Reich on these boards. Take your defeatist attitude to Austrailia then, I sure won't miss it.

Our forefathers didn't run when things got thick. I don't plan on running either. Because for everyone of us that leaves America---that's another victory for Conservatism. Think about that.




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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #67
73. Don't be pissed--One of the biggest problem is that Americans
Edited on Thu May-12-05 11:58 AM by demo dutch
suffer from the "America is the Greatest complex"
Your input on this question seems more like a Neocon would react.

It's a nice place to live, but not necessarily the greatest.

In fact a top 100 list recently came out and Ireland was listed number 1, USA listed only 13, (Australia number 6)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4020523.stm

It's based on quality of life. You have to consider everything, education, crime, violence, health care, economy, freedom, unemployment, family life, climate, protection for workers, the environment, gender equality, family and community life, political stability and security, etc etc.,

Let's face it the US does not have a great track record in history and the US does not take care of it's citizens, (and never really has) the way some of these other countries do. I have lived in a variety of countries and until you do you may not have the same perspective.

Anyway that person can still be involved even though he lives outside of the US and is even allowed to vote, although his/her vote may not get counted, then again if you vote on US soil, your vote is probably not counted either.

Many people think that the "era of America" is over, in fact has steadily declined since Reagan took office, and that a new era starts in EU-Europe
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. My mother-in-law is from Ireland...
...and she wouldn't move back there if ya paid her.

And she certainly isn't gonna be run off by some neocon thugs.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #66
89. Uh, our "Founding Fathers" either left England or were the descendants
of people who had left England. Maybe they should have stayed and tried to reform England?
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
75. Ireland
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
76. Here you go Snoopdog- the ULTIMATE Ex-patriot Site on the Net
I spend HOURS on this site-
http://www.escapeartist.com

COMPLETE guide to EVERY country in the world.
Real Estate listings
Job listings
Tax information
Immigration requirements

You name it, they provide it.

Enjoy!
BHN
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
77. Ireland voted the best country in the world - see links
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JamboGuide Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Czech Republic and Hungary
Ever since the Iron Curtain fell Prague and Budapest have become a BASTION of gay porn w/ the MOST AMAZING Men/boys ever to grace the Earth. Hungary and Prague are the Euro version of San Fernando Valley
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
82. Move? You are gonna miss all the fun, stick around n/t
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
83. Ireland. Rated best place to live in that new Economist study n/t
and you dont have to learn a different language!
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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
84. Iceland
One of the highest per-capita incomes in the world, clean environment (you can drink straight out of random streams in the country side), a complete lack of a military. They're also the world's oldest democracy, having been voting on issues since 960AD. Plus Reykjavik has a startlingly fun night life. And the weather will make you tough. ;-)
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ballcap1776 Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. I heard that Iceland was wonderful
from some friends who visited and I've always been intrigued by news reports and various PBS specials about it. It seems like a very interesting place to live. I think all the "natives" are descended from Vikings, and most can trace their family back centuries.

Knowing that, I wonder if they welcome immigrants.

I'd consider moving. I would love to stay and fight, but I have a beautiful little girl I worry about and have to protect. I agree with above posters, I think 2006 will be the pivotal point in this mess. If they win or steal 2006, I think we're shot for a while. And I wouldn't be surprised (as vicious as the us-vs-them rhetoric has become) to see it come down to another Civil War.

And I think as a writer and an educator, I can do a lot more good away from the noose, as it were. If I have free speech somewhere else, I can/could use it, instead of watching the 'Net and blogs and whatnot become another wing of the Repub party. It could happen.

I also don't think the fourth Reich comments are that far off base. A lot of the behaviors (rights restrictions, going after those who are "flawed" like gays and non-Christians) are similar. I like to think that it could never get to that point in America -- but I also like to believe that the good people living in Germany in 1930-40 thought it could never happen in their country either.

Just food for thought. Let's not fight each other for our choices, there *are* two sides to each decision.

And, please, let's not slam on each other by saying one person isn't patriotic and another is because of their choices? I am so sick of the Repugs telling me/us that I'm not a patriot because I think the Iraq war is wrong, or because I think our pResident is a lying Coke-head that the word "patriot" has been completely ruined for me. It's difficult for me to want to even fly the flag because I feel it's be co-opted by them and folks will think I'm one! Maybe I'm insane, but that's how I feel.

Let's not ruin patriotism for each other, okay? The Repugs are doing a good enough job as it is... and everyone's version of what is a "patriot" is personal and different.

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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-05 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
90. I've been seriously considering Canada.
It's a little cold for my preeferences, but I'll buy a new coat. I like the people, and sure would have a lot of company laughing at ShrubCo.
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