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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:04 PM
Original message
How Will Karl Rove Smear Clark?
They smeared Max Cleland. They smeared John McCain. They smeared John Kerry.

If he runs in 2008, how will Karl & Co smear Gen. Wes Clark?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's fine because Clark has a better supporter in George Jones.
I'm thinking, in so-far-as country music is concerned, that George Jones trumps Charlie Daniels (both of whom are Tennesseans, btw) by a mile. :7
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. George Jones rocks!!!!
:D
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
42. If Clark Were The Nominee, I Think Willie Nelson Would Support Him (nt)
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #42
57. Does that mean we'd get "Waylon and the boys," too?
;)
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. Waylon Is Sort Of Middle-Of-The-Road, But Cash Was
Definitely for the poor, underprivelaged, and downtrodden.
I miss the Man In Black:(
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
76. Um... Waylon is dead.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. Ummm, I Know That
So is Johnny Cash. I meant that Waylon WAS middle-of-the-road,politically.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
78. Willie nelson is staunch anti-war and supported Kucinich in '04
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. They will say he is crazy. Same as they did with McCain.
Edited on Mon May-02-05 05:07 PM by MidwestTransplant
Remember, McCain was crazy because he was a POW. The Thugs can say Clark is crazy because he spent his life in the military when he could have been in the private sector making lots more money (which is true by their logic).
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. They did worse than that with McCain
They suggested that he betrayed America while he was a POW, and some groups even speculated that he was still betraying America to his former captives.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. We got a bit of a pre-smear before he dropped out
He's ambitious. He got kicked out of the military essentially. They started to line up people who could discredit him. But it didn't get too far.

I wonder if I can find any of those old hit pieces.

Meanwhile, let's not give them any ideas, eh?
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yeah - please don't bring them back up
Besides, we need to start debunking them now, anyway.

I've got my list ready. :D
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Paul Dlugokencky Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. That's right
They were trotting out anti-Clark military folk when he looked like he might pose a threat to Bushie. They've got plenty of ideas of their own already, and will smear anyone. If the first George W was running (Washington), they'd smear him, too. Lost the Battle of Long Island, led his men into a freezing, bitter mess in Valley Forge. A bit cold and distant, like Kerry. And his pal Jefferson "looks French" (speaks it, too!)



http://www.cafepress.com/kickindemocrats
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. That's hilarious.
:rofl:
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. They were trying to undermine his Silver Star before the Swift Shitters
began undermining Kerry. I remember reading stories on the Internet claiming that Clark had bungled in Vietnam and had let his platoon get surrounded, which resulted in an ambush, a firefight and his four wounds and his Silver Star. I'm sure there's no shortness of liars out there.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Yes, they tried
Then a private in Clark's command, Mike McClintic, came forward to tell the true story. McClintic is the one who pushed Clark to the ground after he was shot four times. They hadn't seen each other in 33 years, but when McClintic saw the lies, he came forward and endorsed Wes.

They will try again, no doubt. They will try whatever they want to try against any Dem.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. A whole boat load of Kerry crewmen weren't enough
Yes they will try again. Unless it's not the same crowd. Did someone say Frist would likely get Rove this next time? Ack. I wonder if it's Bush or Rove who has a thing for going after veterans.

Support the troops... they don't know what that means. They're just pretty words to them, tied up with a yellow ribbon.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. If we work NOW to expose the GOP control of the media, no smear will work.
That's my goal. Media and voting machines.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Media, Machines and Clark
That's my goals. ;)
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Paul Dlugokencky Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Not necessarily in that order!
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Actually, that is the order.
I figure if we get the media, the people will know about the machines and will work to correct the problem.
Once all that is done, then Clark's a shoe-in. :7

BTW, your post about the OTHER George W. was hilarious! :rofl:
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. That's a great goal
Wes Clark would approve, actually. He's got us writing letters correcting conservative press reports about Democrats and calling in to right wing radio to get the Dem message over the airwaves to listeners and counteracting smears against Democrats. That may not be precisely in your line, but it's doing the work, too.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. Clark is carzy, insane... completely bonkers.
If Bush were 1/10 the man Wes Clark is, this country would be in fine hands.
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Last Lemming Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. They trotted out that general
who basically said--Wes Clark is no kinda man--implied he was a traitor or some such. The first thing I would do is find that guy--sorry, don't have the name--and examine his career closely.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. That fool was an Edwards' advisor who later said it was "just politics"
when he was questioned by the Hague for his totally-corrupt outright lie about
the General.
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prvet Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Shelton was the name
Slander was his game
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
52. Shelton was not questioned at the Hague. And Shelton wasn't the only
general who criticized Clark. Four of them went on a media tour, hitting all the stations.

Shelton, on the other hand, made his comment at a small college in California, it was reported in a local WEEKLY paper two weeks later, and picked up by the press another week after that and Shelton refused to say another word about it.

As for the Hague, Milosevic made a reference to it in his examination of Clark and moved on to other questions about military strategy.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
72. Shelton was called by the Hague and questioned, as you know
Milosevic, the mass murdering dictator, wanted Shelton to appear on his behalf in order to impugn Clark's testimony. Carla de la Ponte, the Hague prosecutor, called Shelton to evaluate whether he should come to testify on Milosevic's behalf. Shelton didn't have to go to the Hague, because he withdrew his comments against Wes, saying it was "just politics."
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Been there, done that...
Wanna see?

http://frenchiecat.forclark.com/story/2003/11/23/203932/69
The truth about Shelton/Ralston/Cohen and Wes Clark

and http://frenchiecat.forclark.com/story/2003/11/24/155227/97
(page down a bit)
Here is a the six articles that I dug up by researching the archives. These articles clear up issues that had already been covered and that you must have unfortunately forgotten. The point made in these 20 articles from various reputable mainstream publications is that Wes Clark is telling the truth about the Larry, Curly and Moe smears and accusations.

Please note that there are additional articles (14 of them) from various mainstream publications also available at this link here. this is a Russian site which is dedicated to General Wes Clark. http://wesleyclark.h1.ru/departure.htm#top
the Russian site includes these 14 articles:
Outlook 8/9/99
GEN. WESLEY CLARK WAS RIGHT -- AND SO HE MUST GO
Levin Statement on Departure of General Wesley Clark
Perspective on the Military: Why Wesley Clark Got the Ax at NATO
U.S. Department of State, Daily Press Briefing Aug. 3, 1999
Warrior's Rewards
General Clark's Last Stand
The Unappreciated General
Clark's Exit Was Leaked Deliberately, Official Says
President Clinton's "Distress"
Washington's Long Knives
Army Faces Reduced Leadership Role

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
41. That general they trotted out was workin for another Dem candidate
as his military advisor. That general said what he said and then retracted it ... 'just poliyics' is what he said ..... that general was none other than Hugh Shelton.

Who was he workin' for again ....... ?

Why do we worry about the right when we're pretty fucking good at eating our own, too.

How about a little 'I'll support your guy if you support mine .... and if you can't do that, fair enough ... just don't lie about him .... k?'
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. Someone said that the GOP feared Clark the most in the primaries
Because they didn't have anything on him, and wouldn't be able to credibly make anything up.

He was obviously in the military, but never protested a war. And he was CAREER miltary, not just doing his draft stint.

He never uttered anything controversial, could never be called a liberal extremist by any measure.

And he seems to be a decent, intelligent no-nonsense guy.

And they hate that.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
51. When Someone Can't Be "Successfully" Smeared,
Edited on Tue May-03-05 08:40 AM by Dinger
they ignore them, which is what they did to Clark. I don't think that would work twice. Clark learns faster than most people think.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. This is exactly the case.
Edited on Tue May-03-05 11:32 AM by Clark2008
They couldn't get a smear to stick.

I mean, how can you you honestly tell the American public that a former NATO SACEUR, who just returned from testifying at The Hague to put a tyranical dicator away for life, didn't do his job or is a nut. Obviously, he wasn't or he wouldn't have been so revered by the prosecution. The public might also have found out, at that time, that Slobodon Milosovich tried to use Shelton's "lack of character" statements against Clark in his defense only to have Shelton have to admit to the Hague judge that his comments weren't true, they were "only political."

And, if you notice, it was upon his return from The Hague that the press started ignoring him like he had the Black Plague.

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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. How's this one:
Soon after Clark entered, Bay Buchanan tried to say that Clark was gay. I personally don't care if the General is gay, but would anyone buy that? Oh Bay--the man makes ya squirm doesn't he?

Oh_and David Brooks said Clark was angry. No shit Sherlock? Angry because a president lied us into a war that used and abused the rank and file. Note: David Brooks would be angry too if he still had a brain.

ps Me thinks the left smeared Clark more than the right...carrying Rove's water ain't that hard.
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melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
55. No Way...
I never heard the Bay Buchanan thing. That's hilarious! I wouldn't care either if he was, but yeah, it's still hilarious.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. Here's a winger column from 2003 - CLARK, DEFENDER OF TERRORISTS
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/030922

Knock your self out.

Further I remember talk about how Clark was FIRED from the military.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Read these posts for illumination....
Edited on Mon May-02-05 06:11 PM by FrenchieCat
To DU admin...these articles were archives that I purchased them. These are New York time archives...where they just give you a paragraph (not even) of the original article. So I cannot provide a link in where one will find the complete articel....so I must post the entire articles. Those who want to verify the content can do a search of NYT Archives using the date and the headline name.....

July 29, 1999, Thursday
FOREIGN DESK
Clinton's Adviser Defends Decision to Retire NATO General
By ELIZABETH BECKER (NYT) 801 words
WASHINGTON, July 28 -- The President's top security adviser today defended the decision to speed up the retirement of the NATO Supreme Commander, Gen. Wesley K. Clark, by a few months to make way for his intended replacement, and the adviser insisted that the move did not signal any displeasure with the general's performance.
''General Clark is a superb commander,'' Samuel R. Berger, the national security adviser, said. ''The President has the highest degree of confidence in him.''

Over the weekend, Defense Secretary William S. Cohen chose Gen. Joseph W. Ralston, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as his candidate to succeed General Clark as the head of United States forces in Europe and NATO commander.

Administration officials said moving General Ralston to the prestigious NATO post was the Pentagon's primary motive.

General Ralston is required by law to leave his current post by February, because he will have served the maximum four years. That timetable led in turn to the decision to ask General Clark to leave his post a few months early. He had been scheduled to retire next summer, when his extended term would have ended.

NATO officials said General Clark was taken aback by the suddenness of the decision to have him retire in April or May, a message relayed to him by telephone on Tuesday while he was traveling.

''His assumption was that he would remain as long as he was doing a good job,'' a NATO official said. ''This came sooner than expected.''

Several officials felt compelled to dismiss any notion that the general's many disagreements with the Pentagon and other NATO members in the Kosovo conflict might have contributed to the decision. General Clark urged a more aggressive bombing campaign and asked the Pentagon for speedier deployment of equipment and troops.

His insistence that NATO prepare for the possibility of a ground war was at odds with the Administration, which did not want to pursue an invasion that would be publicly unpopular.

Officials went to great lengths to play down the friction and turn the spotlight on the promotion of General Ralston.

Mr. Cohen and Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright joined today in praising General Clark.

''He's done an outstanding job in serving this capacity as Commander of the European Forces and Supreme Allied Commander,'' Mr. Cohen said at a news conference in Tokyo.

Last Thursday, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Hugh H. Shelton, met senior military commanders, including General Clark, in Tampa, Fla., but nothing was said to General Clark about his impending early retirement, several officials who were at the meeting said.

On Tuesday, when General Shelton telephoned General Clark who was on an official visit to Lithuania, to tell him the news, General Clark was upset that he had not been told in Florida, a NATO official said.

A spokesman for General Shelton said that the Chairman had telephoned General Clark as soon as the final decision was made over the weekend and that General Ralston had agreed to be a candidate.

General Clark said today that he considered the action part of a routine change of command. ''When a soldier's journey is over, it's over,'' he said in Vilnius, Lithuania, according to the Baltic News Service.

At the Pentagon and on Capitol Hill, reaction to was muted.

''I think this is much ado about very little here,'' said Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, a Texas Republican who opposed the Kosovo bombing but is close to General Clark. ''I don't think this is in any way a slap at General Clark. It's not unusual to make a two- or three-month adjustment in someone's tour to accommodate another officer.''

Lawmakers and officers praised General Ralston, who is 55. ''Joe Ralston will be very good,'' said Tillie Fowler, a Florida Republican who is on the House Armed Services Committee.

A highly decorated former combat pilot in Vietnam and an administrator known for his skills at building a consensus, General Ralston withdrew from consideration for Chairman of the Joint chiefs two years, ago after it became known that he had an affair in the 1980's while separated from his wife.

He had planned to retire next year to Anchorage, Alaska. But in his last two years as vice chairman, his 18-hour days, for example seeing to details like accompanying Ms. Albright to visit the Chinese Ambassador here on the night a NATO plane bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, helped erase military and Administration concerns that he could not surmount the adultery reports.

Mr. Cohen cited General Ralston's ''diplomatic skills, his war capabilities and his war record.''
-----------------------------------------
This story deals with Clark's replacement and the scandal he, Ralston was involved in....
August 4, 1999, Wednesday
NATIONAL DESK
For a Scandal-Scarred General, the Gleam Appears to Be Back on the Brass
By MELINDA HENNEBERGER and ELIZABETH BECKER (NYT) 1655 words</h5>
WASHINGTON, Aug. 3 -- At a level where there are few second chances in the United States military, Gen. Joseph Ralston has been not only redeemed but resurrected.
When an affair 13 years in the past blocked his promotion to the country's top military job two summers ago, the General never complained, associates say, and if he looked back at all, he never let anyone catch him at it. Instead, he made his new boss look good and put his hand up for sensitive assignments.

When the United States bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade in May, it was General Ralston who accompanied Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright on a midnight visit to the ambassador's residence here. When Washington planned to attack a factory in Sudan in retaliation for the terrorist bombings of American embassies in Africa, it was General Ralston who flew to Pakistan to explain. Now, his constancy in a changed environment has been rewarded. Two wars, two years and a presidential sex scandal later, General Ralston is again considered a crucial member of the inner circle on national security. Last week, he was named the Pentagon's choice to replace Gen. Wesley K. Clark as supreme commander of NATO forces in Europe. And some in the military and in Congress even say he may be back on track for the job of Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Back in 1997, he withdrew his name from consideration for the chairman's job a week after the Air Force was intensely criticized for forcing a female pilot to leave the service for lying about an illicit relationship. But he stayed on for a second term as vice chairman, working 18-hour days. He spoke for the Pentagon at high-level policy meetings, directed the purchase of new weapons systems and equipment, coordinated with military commanders around the world.

And with the passage of time, ''I hope the environment has settled down a bit and I think it has,'' said Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, the ranking Democrat on the Armed Services Committee. ''We're able to look more objectively at the whole person, the context and the texture of events rather than drawing these complicated human events with broad brush strokes.''

When his name was first raised as the Pentagon's choice for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the case of First Lieut. Kelly Flinn, the first woman to fly a B-52 strategic bomber, had particularly outraged many women in Congress: How come he gets the ultimate promotion after his affair, they asked, and she gets to explore new career opportunities?

Since then, of course, the Flinn case has faded from memory. The Commander in Chief, President Clinton, survived a sex scandal that divided and then wearied the country, causing several members of Congress to suggest that, post-impeachment, they feel more than two years older than they were back when Lieutenant Flinn was Topic A.

General Ralston's affair, with a civilian employee of the Central Intelligence Agency, apparently began when he was separated from his wife, though in 1988 divorce papers his wife said the relationship had continued after the couple reconciled and eventually caused their breakup.

''The fact that there was a consensual affair when he was separated from his wife should not disqualify him from even serving as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs,'' Mr. Levin said. Asked if that seemed likely, he answered, ''He's surely qualified.''

Friends and family members now say that no one was more surprised by the choice assignment -- and the latest extension of a 34-year career -- than General Ralston himself.

He had already bought a house in Alaska, where he expected to retire next March, said his daughter, Paige Ralston, deputy press secretary to Representative J. Dennis Hastert of Illinois, the Speaker of the House. ''My stepmother had already bought the furniture and picked out the curtains,'' Ms. Ralston said.

General Ralston still has critics, especially among loyalists to General Clark. Some of them suggested that the current NATO commander, who sometimes disagreed with his superiors but won NATO's air war against Yugoslavia, is being replaced with a go-along, get-along type.

Others say the military wing of the old boys' network had simply been waiting for things to calm down so they could restore General Ralston's standing without much of a fight.

''Maybe he's the greatest guy since Patton,'' said Tod Ensign, director of Citizen Soldier, a veterans advocacy group in New York, ''but we ought to at least acknowledge that they're still winking at this and continuing a double standard.''

''In this post-impeachment environment,'' Mr. Ensign said, Defense Secretary William S. Cohen and Gen. Henry H. Shelton, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, ''probably feel now, 'What can the White House say? Who's going to really complain?' ''

Louis Font, a Boston lawyer with a number of clients in the military, said that just last May, a low-ranking male client of his had been sent to Leavenworth to serve four months in prison for a consensual affair with a civilian.

But there is little question that the heat has gone out of the debate now; Senator John W. Warner, Republican of Virginia, who is chairman of the Armed Services Committee, promised to ''work diligently to get his nomination through.'' And General Ralston's Congressional allies expect an easy confirmation.

Representative Carolyn B. Maloney, a New York Democrat who complained about a double standard when General Ralston's promotion was announced two years ago, said, ''I'd like to see Kelly Flinn have a comeback,'' but added that she had heard from Ms. Flinn since she left the military and believed she was flying commercially now. Ms. Maloney said she did not plan to make an issue of General Ralston's past affair at this point. Like many of the core group of women in Congress who supported Lieutenant Flinn, Ms. Maloney also was a strong defender of President Clinton in the impeachment debate.

Another member of Congress who stood by Mr. Clinton sighed and said, ''Even though the President's conduct is not subject'' to military rules, ''I'm sure that is part of the whole change.''

Former Senator Dale Bumpers of Arkansas, who runs the Center for Defense Information, a left-leaning think tank in Washington, said, ''I would like to believe this is at least a slight easing in the harsh line the Pentagon has always taken.'' Mr. Bumpers spoke on Mr. Clinton's behalf on the Senate floor in the impeachment trial.

But the General's supporters at the Pentagon, on Capitol Hill and at the White House said his improved standing also has everything to do with his own performance. General Ralston, 55, could not have known he would get another shot at the top job when he just kept showing up for work at 5:30 every morning after withdrawing his name from consideration.

Joseph Ralston grew up outside Louisville, the youngest of four children born to a tobacco farmer and an X-ray technician. ''He came from a poor family in Kentucky and it was all up to him,'' said Ms. Ralston, his daughter. But somehow, he never considered himself poor, or no worse off than most people he knew, and the family eventually sent three children to college.

Miami University of Ohio was an intimidating place for him in the fall of 1961, and he has often told the story of the kind stranger in a military uniform who helped him figure out his class schedule on one of his first days on campus. The man pointed out that Joseph had Tuesday and Thursday afternoons free for Air Force ROTC, so he signed up, and began his military career. (He also met his second wife, Dede, through ROTC. He knew her on campus, where she was involved in the women's program then known as Angel Flights, and they reconnected after his divorce from his first wife, Linda.)

After graduating in 1965, he became a fighter pilot, flying 147 combat missions, most of them over North Vietnam. At one point in the summer of 1968, when the Air Force was losing planes at a particularly alarming rate, he flew five combat missions over Hanoi in three days.

When he came home, he seemed most interested in repairing the mistakes made in Vietnam and helping the military become more combat ready, first as a squadron commander, then a wing commander, and then head of the Alaskan Command. Finally, in 1995, he was named the top fighter pilot commander in the Air Force, becoming the head of the Air Combat Command at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia.

In his first term as vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, his boss, Gen. John M. Shalikashvili, recommended him as the next chairman.

Several months ago, when Mr. Cohen and General Shelton sat down to figure out how to replace half a dozen senior military officers whose terms were up next summer, they again thought of General Ralston and quickly realized he was the man they wanted to succeed General Clark.

They got the enthusiastic support of the White House. And they felt so strongly about General Ralston, in fact, that they advanced the retirement of General Clark by two months to make sure General Ralston would be his successor.

(Under law, General Ralston has to assume another command within 60 days after his term as vice chairman ends at the end of February, or face automatic retirement.)

Even now, those close to him seem afraid to drop the slightest hint that he might feel vindicated.

''He doesn't have the job yet,'' said Ms. Ralston, his daughter. ''It's still early.''
--------------------------------------------------
DOING A COMPARISON OF DATES....IT APPEARS THAT THIS MAY BE THE PROMOTION THAT PASSED OVER GENERAL RALSTON BECAUSE OF HIS 1986 SEX SCANDAL. WHICH CONFIRMS JUST THAT MUCH MORE WHY RALSTON AND THE REST DIDN'T LIKE CLARK, AMONG JUST PURE JEALOUSY!
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Well, as we know Rove always attacks a candidate's strengths
And General Clark has many. . . .
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. May I ask what the purpose of this thread is?
Why are we doing Karl Rove's work for him?

I prefer to think of ways to support General Clark, and respect his lifetime of service to his country rather than how Rove will manage to smear him.

Think about it.

TC
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I wanted to ask the same thing
But my query was less civil than yours.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Tisha, this only sounded civil...
I am actually quite steamed about it.

To be quite honest, we need only to read some of the threads here on DU to see what he'll come up with. The smears from people right here on DU have been so vicious, so misleading, and so false, Rove only needs to have someone come here and copy them down so they can be parroted back to the media.

TC
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. They'll take every nobel thing he has ever done and lie about them.
I'm not giving suggestions or secrets away. THis is merely the gop playbook.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. They surely will
And we're ready for them. We've had a ton of practice here at DU from the extreme left. I think we can take what the extreme right hands out, because it's the same shit, ya know?
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Texas_Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
26. I actually heard a Fox bot say
"What kind of a name is Wesley....."

Wesley Snipes must'a called 'em cos I never heard it again.
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
43. Are you serious?!?!?
WTF? So if Rudy Guiliani is nominated we can say, "What kind of name is Rudy"?

Not that anyone here should be offended if their name is Rudy or they have a close loved one named Rudy... but it isn't a common name and no more strange than Wesley. :D
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Texas_Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Yep... but only once
BTW, love your sig!
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. Bwaaaaahaaaaaahaaaaaaaa!!!!
lolololol!!!!!!! Hilarious. Lame but hilarious. I guess we could say hilariously lame.

How transparent (not to mention desperate) can ya get? Oy!

Julie
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. *whispers*
Ummmm... over react much?
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
45. I Think She's Saying the OP Is Obviously "Disruptive" to Board Comity
Edited on Tue May-03-05 02:05 AM by DoveTurnedHawk
But that's just me. :-)

:hi: Julie.

DTH
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. And yet I don't know a single Clarkie
who has been busted for sockpuppeting. Can you say the same of some who wore Dean avatars? Answer truly, now, because we'll know.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. This post has me totally mystified.
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here Julie.:shrug:
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Field Of Dreams Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
32. Peggy Noonan
...remember that piece she wrote in the WSJ during the campaign season? It was entitled "Democrats: For the Good of the Country, Stop Wesley Clark." She recycled a lot of tripe from what I can recall.

It's still available online -- I refuse to post the link.

I hate that woman!
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Yep, they sure as hell wanted to knock him out in the primaries
and keep him from getting the nomination. Gee, I wonder why that could have been.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #32
46. If the Nooner wrote that, then we ALL should be foresquare
BEHIND Wes Clark.
That means he actually could upset their little apple cart!

Ohhhh... I wish you could find that piece... I'd deliciously devour Nooner's words and trash them to her face.
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. IIRC she floated--probably started--
the "strange and creepy" meme. Begged us Dems not to nominate this man so many find "creepy."

The original article was in the WSJ, but in order not to give that rag any hits here's a link to a blogger who links in turn to Nooner's article in order to debunk it:

http://tbogg.blogspot.com/2004/01/cuz-dolphins-tell-me-so.html

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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
47. Okay, I'll play.
They can try "He didn't deserve his medals in Vietnam." It's been done. No traction.

They can try "He tried to start WWIII!" He stood up to the Russians. Doesn't work.

They can try "Somebody or other doesn't like him!" No matter who their nominee is, Dr. Dean can find somebody more important who doesn't like him/her.

They can try "He was too much a warrior against..." Doesn't fly in the current climate. Right now, all things national security, defense, and military are golden.

The more important issues are what our own party can try: "He's not a life-long registered Democrat!" Neither are a great number of the voters we need to win!

"He's sympathetic with the military!" So are a great number of the voters we need to win!

"Red state conservatives like him despite his liberal, anti-war stances!" Well... hello?...

The difficulty is how our own party wants to smear him, as I see it. The Repugs have nothing on him that'd easily stick -- and that's precisely why they're working so hard to feed a certain segment of the "so-called left" a lot of anti-Clark, pro-anybody else including Milosevic garbage, all in the name of "anti-military, anti-imperialist leftwing pacifism." It's amazing how many people on the so-called left will buy into that rightwing-empowering propaganda.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
49. They will get a procession of former colleagues to smear him.
Edited on Tue May-03-05 05:26 AM by bklyncowgirl
T hey will do exactly what they did with Cleland, McCain and Kerry.

Anyone who was in the military as long as Clark has enemies and anyone in the military as long as Clark has made mistakes. Those goofy pictures with that Serbian war criminal are a good example. Sometimes these mistakes cost lives. They will get a group of sympathetic sounding veterans to raise questions about his temperment and conduct and will find some long forgotten incident to pound home his unfitness to serve as commander in chief.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't be the Democratic nominee--whoever the Democrats nominate is going to be smeared--I'm just saying that this is what they'll do and the Democrats had better have a strategy to counter it--something a little more effective than telling the truth.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. "something a little more effective than telling the truth"
Edited on Tue May-03-05 07:31 AM by Husb2Sparkly
"something a little more effective than telling the truth"

Now that's the truth! Telling the actual truth and backing it up with facts would seem a counter to a smear, but it simply isn't. If the smear takes 9 words to say and the truth takes a paragraph, the smear wins.

Letting the press corpse know the truth when they repeat the smear does nothing but crowd the internet's bandwidth, bog the phone lines, or weigh down the mailman's shoulder.

If someone's using fire against you, you've got to use the same fire back at them.

High road, schmigh road. Ya gotta kick ass and take names. Bloody a few noses. Throw a few sucker punches. I think the Dems could win like this (and I'm not talking just about Clark here) but only if we do it at the right time ..... like *after* they start doing it to us. Let the smear get out there and then counter long and loud. When Leslie Blitzer repeats it, smack his ass down. Long and loud. Show that we're willing to fight and fight hard in **defense**. I believe it was Dean who said this.

In my view, he's right.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
54. The problem (and perhaps benefit) isn't what they will smear him with
it's what will be done about it.

KKKKarl will find something to smear anyone with and if he doesn't, he'll lie - no big.

The point is how it then gets fought and I daresay Clark will fight back.
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ollie3 Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
56. The Smears Will Occur During Primaries--Won't work in General Election
We already have seen what the Republican smear artists will try on Clark.

None of these smears were true. More importantly, they wouldn't work in the general election. Because, for one thing, upon close examination they would appear silly and self defeating for a Republican to use them against a Democrat of Clark's caliber.

Clark is, though, the candidate the Reps fear most. That's why the smears will be during the primary process. They know Democrats will be divided into groups supporting various candidates. The supporters of Clark's rivals will be very receptive to any smear that may be proported throught the media on Clark. And the undecided Dems might not be snookered by the smear tactics but it will raise doubts among them anyhow. The purpose of the smears will be to nip Clark in the bud before he has a chance to be the nominee. Once he is nominated, and Clark would have a unified party behind him and the full resources to boot, the attacks would be much more difficult to pull off.

Why they might work among Dems is that many Dems are suspicious of military in the first place. We are anti-war by nature and the last thing any of us would want to support would be someone who is a warlock, warmongerer or panderer to the military-industrial complex.

So bringing up some quotes about Clark "trying to start World War 3" or being too stong willed or even the looney smear that Clark is responsible for Waco Texas (talk about looney)....these play to discomfort many liberals have about military men in general. Even if proven false (which they are) they still raise the fear level among knee-jerk-anti-military-liberals. And, with this militarist perception, it is impossible for many Democrats to envision Clark as the progressive that he truly is.

Now, in the general election, this smear about the British officer who voiced fears about Clark starting world war 3 would be stupid. What would the Reps be saying, that they would make US military policy subject the veto of a disaffected british officer who wasn't exactly pro-USA in the first place? Would they attack someone for standing up to the Russians? And...golly gee whiz....world war 3 didn't happen, at least not on this planet.

Furthermore associating Clark with the military would help the Dems in the general election, just as this same meme would hurt Clark among liberal Democrats in the primaries. That is also why the Reps would be silly to draw more attention to Clark's stellar military record in the general election. Sure they might try some smear stuff. They are negative by nature, and they will try to smear anyone.

The point I am making is if you look at the smears that have been used on Clark, they are designed mainly to weaken his support among Democrats, and they won't work in the general election. The Reps for example helped bring out the meme that Clark was not a Democrat enough....knowing that this will scare off some Dems, but in the general election a candidate that has some independence and broad base of support--can anyone deny that this would be an ASSET in the general election?

Clark's strength is that he has the foreign policy and security gravitas to take this issue off the table in the election so that the Dems can focus on domestic issues, with which they can clobber the Republicans with. A Democrat with less security gravitas has to worry about being perceived as too liberal or too soft, so we see them afraid to be a liberal. Clark does not have this problem. He is perceived as a common sense sort of guy. He is articulate, very knowledgeable, and most of all he is progressive from the heart and has an instinctive roots with working people.

With Clark on the ticket, the Dem Party can change its perception from being the party that is weak on foreign policy. And this perception is an albatross around the necks of the Dems that makes the smears of the Republican Swifties believable in the first place.
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ZootSuitGringo Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
81. Wow!
So true!

Kudos on that perfect analysis!

Bet the talking head could NEVER be this smart. Or they just don't want to talk analysis that make sense.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. You don't expect people to take you seriously do you?
LOL.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Thank you for answering the OP's question so succinctly.
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ollie3 Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. Gee.....seems like you are anti-military....
.....and it show in your slanted bias.

You are wrong about Clark. I wish you would get your facts straight before you jump right in on the character assassination thingie. You would make Karl Rove proud!

Why do the Republicans need Karl Rove when they can count on people like you to trash other Democrats FOR FREE?

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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
62. They've already tried to trash his record in the Balkans and tried to link
him to the Waco fiasco, by implying that his base provided a tank for the government to use on the Wackos at Waco.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. I think Richard Rosen would come in handy here, too.
For the past couple of months, I have followed several internet discussions about Wesley Clark's "involvement" in the Branch Davidian Standoff at Waco, but I have not seen it mentioned so prominently in a mainstream website until it appeared today in InstaPundit. I have not responded to the various conspiracy theories about General Clark's role because most seem to be generated by people with little or no contact with reality. Indeed, your assessment about General Clark's participation in the Standoff and its aftermath is absolutely correct: he played a peripheral role, at most.

I was General Clark's staff judge advocate at the 1st Cavalry Division. As such, I was his legal advisor and provided advice about military support for the FBI at Waco. In addition, I briefed the 1st Cav's tank crews before they departed Fort Hood.

The 1st Cavalry Division received orders from its higher headquarters - III Armored Corps and Fort Hood - to provide certain equipment to the FBI for its use at Waco. I learned the FBI had made a request for equipment to the Department of Defense, which ultimately sent it through Army channels to Fort Hood - the Army installation closest to Waco. The request was consistent with statute (10 U.S.C. § 372), Department of Defense directive, and Army regulation, and I advised General Clark (or, more particularly, his Chief of Staff) of that fact.

At the direction of the division's Chief of Staff, I later briefed the division's tank crews before they departed for Waco. My guidance to the crews was they could provide the FBI equipment (10 U.S.C. § 372), they could train the FBI on its use (10 U.S.C. § 373), and they could maintain the equipment (10 U.S.C. § 374). I told the crews, however, that under no circumstances could they operate the equipment in support of the FBI's Waco operation (10 U.S.C. § 375).

Incidentally, my office's written legal opinion and the slides used to brief the tank crews were turned over to Congress during its Waco investigations, to the Danforth Commission, and to the United States District Court that heard the Federal Tort Claims Act lawsuits arising out of Waco.

I would be happy to provide additional information, but I believe too much ink has already been spilled over what is truly a "non-issue." Of course, the normal disclaimer applies: nothing in this e-mail should be construed as an endorsement on behalf of or against General Clark.

Richard D. Rosen
Colonel, U.S. Army, Retired
Associate Dean for Administration & External Affairs
Texas Tech University School of Law


Can't get any more plain than that.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
63. Of course he will.
nt
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LimpingLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
67. Vote against him in the 2008 Republican primary?
I dunno.

Its too far out.

How about asking Nostradamous?

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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
70. If you think the Swift Boat Liars were bad...
Edited on Tue May-03-05 02:27 PM by ultraist
They will dig up any and every Repuke military person that ever served with or near Clark and parade them on an ad and tour.

Clark has a long military career that they can pick apart.

Wasn't there some sort of conflict surrounding Clark's retirement?

I'm sure there were also on the job conflicts/misunderstandings they could blow out of proportion. War is a very messy business.

Don't forget that Clark voted for Reagan and Bush I and worked for a Republican WH Administration! They will play that up big time.

They would also bring up his private contract work for AXICOM & NEXTEL.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Who needs to wait for Rove, right?
We've got plenty of folks right here who are willing to smear him.

I would suggest that many fence-sitting republicans who hate what has happened to their party might find the idea that he voted for Reagan a positive thing - something they could identify with. It would work against them to use it. (However, it seems something democrats seem eager to use.)

For me the difference between the Swift Boat escapade and whatever gets thrown at Clark is that I fully expect Clark to fight back - something that desperately hurt Kerry regarding the Swifties.
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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
73. gosh, do you people EVER stop?
geez
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ZootSuitGringo Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Jeeze....
do we people need to stop? Is this an order or a wish of yours?

Why don't you go and ask the Bushies to stop on their blog site. You might be more useful there. Doncha think? Or are you scared?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Nah, it's YOU people who stalk Clark threads
Edited on Tue May-03-05 03:59 PM by ClarkUSA
When did you become a DNC strategist? Because the Republicans aren't "stopping" their charge. Maybe they need your advice.
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Stop what, exactly?
Are you trying to tell people to shut up?
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ZootSuitGringo Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. I think that's the case.
Edited on Tue May-03-05 04:02 PM by ZootSuitGringo
The nerves!

I'm not stopping a goddamn thing. And I hope somebody wants to make me.

I Guess that according to the Corporate news media, we should still be discussing the "runaway" bride, Michael Jackson and the inner workings of the mind of the Pope. Anything but what we want to talk about. Only talking heads get to drone on and on about their speculations and their views. Their sorry ass analysis make me sick!

Sick. Just sick, I tell you.
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Field Of Dreams Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. Who are "you people?"
n/t
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #73
83. No, I don't think the sockpuppets from the
"site that dare not speak its name" ever do stop posting flamebait about Clark. I appreciate your concern though.
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sharonking21 Donating Member (552 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
85. Please note that this is in
response to the OP, so there is some question in my mind whether newsguyatl is talking about Clark supporters or Clark bashers.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Uh, uh
There is no doubt whatsoever that he is talking about Clark supporters. It's what he does on a quiet corporate news night and any other time.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
84. They'll find something, never fear
They always do, and no Dem candidate will be immune, ever. Which is why we should stop picking our candidates motivated by our fears of what the Rethugs might do to him or her.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
87. Locked for cleanup
we apologize for any inconvenience
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