Framing Error. Substitute "Kidnap" for "Render"

[benburch]

Substitute "hostage" for "detainee"

Substitute "dungeon" for "detention camp"

We are using their words again, and it clouding the truth of the matter.

[sui generis]

1. I agree 10000 percent

Rendering is state-condoned torture. Torture is the appropriate word to use.

[wtmusic]

2. It's a long list

someone smack me upside the head should I ever use the word "detainee"

:spank:

[NewHampshireDem]

3. Why did no one ask the logical follow-up?

"If they are not being tortured when they are sent to these other countries, why send them in the first place?"

Of course, I know the answer to my own question ... and we all know the answer to the second question. *'s answer about protecting the 'Murkin sheeple and what they expect him to do was a de facto admission that he knows full well they are being tortured.

[ClassWarrior]

4. Thanks for the reality check, Ben.

NGU.

[benburch]

5. Any time!

One problem with them owning almost all of the broadcast media is that we are awash in their words, and it becomes hard to give things their proper meanings. The USSR was similarly stifling to thought, according to my readings of the works of soviet dissidents.

[sandnsea]

6. substitute "terrorist pampering"

for Democrat. Great idea. We can fight for the Geneva Convention and civil rights without getting stupid about it.

[benburch]

7. Don't you see that this technique is being used against us already?

And successfully?

[sandnsea]

8. So feed into it?

The solution is to come up with a better plan on extremism and terrorism. Not to throw around a bunch of hyperbolic terms to give them even more fuel.

[ClassWarrior]

9. No, the solution is to do both.

To come up with better plans AND better communications. And a whole lot more than that.

NGU.

[sandnsea]

11. Maniacal ranting isn't better communication

And lumping all detainees into hostages kidnapped and held in dungeons would be just that. Maniacal ranting.

[ClassWarrior]

16. Thanks for that well-reasoned, rational answer.

:rofl:

NGU.

[benburch]

10. Subvert it.

Choice of language and imagery is EVERYTHING in a public debate.

[sandnsea]

12. See #11

Imagery is everything, and the image of coddling terrorists isn't one we want.

[benburch]

13. 90% of them are not terrorists.

Just people who were farming the land in the wrong place. The government has admitted this. You are buying into their framing by continuing to call them terrorists.

[sandnsea]

14. No, I'm not

I'm saying there's better words to use besides kidnapped, hostages and dungeons. Innocent bystanders. Law abiding. Ensnared. Held captive. In limbo. Lots of things besides going for the most ridiculous, inflammatory rhetoric. If you actually cared about the people instead of the politics, it would be easy to find the right words to describe their plight.

[benburch]

15. I'm not advocating specific words!!!!

Those were examples. I thought I was being clear.

However, if you do not enflame people, they sleep. History proves that whether you are comfortable with that or not.

[sandnsea]

18. Enflame them to hate you

That's what your chosen words, which you did not say were just examples, would do. I'm all for finding the right words to characterize what this Administration is doing. But look at Churchill, a very important statement, totally destroyed because of his choice of using Eichmann to make his point. How many times does that have to happen before the left gets it?

[benburch]

21. We will have to agree to disagree on that.

They already hate us.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

19. Thanks for making my point

Inflame with hyperbole, instead of dealing with the topic.

[ClassWarrior]

20. You mean like, "without getting stupid about it?"

:rofl:

NGU.

[sandnsea]

22. Oh I see

A general comment about stupidity is more vile than directly attacking somebody as hateful and spiteful. :eyes:

[ClassWarrior]

23. For someone who claims to despise framing, you're awfully good at it.

NGU.

[sandnsea]

24. Despise framing?

Where'd I say that? I said I despise maniacal ranting. Framing would be a vast improvement and the left doesn't know a flipping thing about it. If they did, people would be flocking to their agenda, and people aren't. Get a damned clue. And before you point out the obvious, that people aren't flocking to the Democratic agenda either, I know. In part because they mix up the maniacal ranting from the left with the Democratic Party, and in part because the Democratic Party hasn't framed the issues clear enough to break through the noise from the left and right.

[omega minimo]

32. How do you recommend using framing?

"Framing would be a vast improvement and the left doesn't know a flipping thing about it. If they did, people would be flocking to their agenda, and people aren't. "

What pitfalls and possibilities do you see?

[sandnsea]

33. It should be convicting

Not inflammatory. Thought Police is good to describe people being arrested for what they might do at a Bush rally. Deadbeat Dad party is what I use to describe Bush refusing to keep the SS commitment. Fristians is absolutely perfect.

Extremists who commit acts of terror, should be used to start turning the debate towards the fact that we don't know what to do about our own extremists, we have democracy, so what makes us think we know what to do about foreign extremists who commit acts of terror. We don't really have a terrorism plan and that's Bush's strongest area.

Once we convince people Bush doesn't know anything about stopping extremist terrorist acts, people will come to the conclusion quickly that we need ME help to get out of Iraq.

There has to be something similar from history that is short of saying detainees are being kidnapped and held hostage in dungeons. The Disappeared was working pretty well a couple of years ago.

[ClassWarrior]

25. If you think observing your words are full of hate is attacking you...

...then why don't you hit alert? There are rules against attacking fellow DUers, you know.

NGU.

[sandnsea]

26. I don't do that

Seems a bit childish to me. Mommy, they hurt me. Call the whaaaambulance!

[ClassWarrior]

27. So being a responsible member of a community is whining?

NGU.

[sandnsea]

28. I'm responsible

I alert if people attack somebody else, I just don't have a temper tantrum if they do it to me.

[ClassWarrior]

29. Of course you don't.

Who said you did? Why do you feel a need to put words in my mouth?

NGU.

[sandnsea]

30. whining, temper tantrum

:shrug:

[ClassWarrior]

34. So why do you think the Radical RW tries so hard to provoke Progressives?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

35. And why do you think they try to make us look out of control...

...even if we aren't?

NGU.

[omega minimo]

31. Substitute "Usurper" for "President Bush"

:kick:

Substitute "Peace & Prosperity" for "Preemptive War"