Unlimited Immigration - Good for the US or bad ? Carrying Capacity ?

[EVDebs]

Years ago in the blissful '50s, kids would see how many people they could cram into a phone booth. Nowadays the US seems much the same way !

In a math text I once read that the 'carrying capacity' of the US was reached around 1970 at about the population of 200 million. This was qualified by the disclaimer that war deaths may have skewed this timeline somewhat.

The Sierry Club is also debating the issue, by ballot-box internally, but policy wise seems to be avoiding the whole issue like the plague. Therefore, DUers, I put the question to YOU: Is unlimited immigration, which appears to be the driving force with US population and jobs currently, good or bad for the US ? What IS the carrying capacity of the USA ? More food for thought:

New immigrants account for bulk of labor force growth since 2000 while native born workers experience heavy declines
http://www.nupr.neu.edu/01-04/immigration_jan.html

U.S. and World Headed for Ecological Collapse if Current Trends Continue
http://www.carryingcapacity.org/04aa5.html

[Dogmudgeon]

1. How about this?

Since so many of our immigrants come from Mexico, why not reform, clean out, or just overturn the cause of Mexico's long burden of poverty, corruption, and stagnation -- the ruling PRI (Institutional Revolutionary Party)?

When Mexico becomes a fully modern democracy, the Mexicans will have far less incentive to try to make landfall in a country that basically hates them (USA).

Does this make sense to anyone else?

So, why can't it be done? Because someone is making a lot of money off the suffering of these people -- and now also the anger of nervous, pessimistic, again-xenophobic Americans.

--p!

[Bridget Burke]

2. Fox is not a member of PRI....

The first non-PRI president since the 1910-1920 "Revolution," he's tried to clean up some of the corruption, but he's a bit to the right of PRI. Not that right/left means the same thing in Mexico.

Millions of Mexicans died during the 1910-1920 war--& many emigrated to escape the violence. Encouraging violent revolution in Mexico would not be good for the USA.

Mexicans have been trying to improve things, but it's not easy. We in the US look back with shock at the 5 deaths that occurred at Kent State. Mexican activists still don't know how many hundreds of their own were murdered during the Tlatelolco massacre.

Supporting economic justice & fair labor practices internationally is a good idea. Too bad our current government doesn't think so.

[Bridget Burke]

3. Overpopulation is an international problem.

Unjust labor practices cross all borders--in all directions.

I'm not in favor of making the USA a gated community.

[Selteri]

4. A few points

First in adressing the theory of an open or revolving immigration policy ---

Unlimited immigration going in and out of America will rob our people of being able to find unskilled labor while the same problem because cuased by a broken and faltering education system that has become focused on teaching children to respond to tests and parrot rather than to think critically has left far too many children capable of less than the capability of being able to do anything but unskilled and minor skilled labor projects, hence, the least of us will lose their jobs.

The carrying capacity of the US isn't a solid number of 200 million, that number changed with the improvement of farming and other industrial techniques to be able to feed, clothe and house a sifficient number of people. Yet in a recessive economy the excess of unskilled labor comming from Mexico does hurt our country, not because of reaching the limitation for workers, but because we have exceeded our job growth capability and exceeded a point a saturation of the job market that would have been able to handle a smaller level of immigration; but to study the level of jobs lost vs the number of immigrants that have gained employment in the unskilled labor section there is a near 1 to 1 ratio. The United States Government of Bushco claims that there is no correlation to this significantly flawed.

This same problem is happening in Europe with arabic immigrant workers. In The Netherlands it has become the worst problem with those immigrants also intentionally swaying the government to a strict coservative policy, pushing to make the country into an 'islamic' government. While the Netherlands is merely a single country example; this same trend is immitating itself in France, Germany, and many other countries with it becomming a saturation point with Spain.

The good news to these trends are that both in Europe and America the 'left' leaning progressives are waking up and beginning to push toward waking people up that those who push a radical and far right agenda are the group that is pushing the truly sinister agenda of global poverty, a small to non-existant middle class with an ultra-wealthy ruling class that is immune to a significant proportion of the damage that they are causing.

In America we have CEOs who make more in a 3 hour period than their average employee makes in a year, with some CEOs who are making more in an hour than their lowest employees make in a year. This disparity has grown so great that many companies, especially Wal-Mart, Game Stop, and Target have far too many employees who are on government assistance or living with their parents because they cannot afford to move out on their own, even with two jobs (Wal-Mart Employees earning an average of 8 bucks an hour, Game Stop employees making minimum wage with jr. management making between 7 and 8 dollars an hour and target emplotees making 6.50 an hour starting). This is a sign of an economic illness that is spreading through the country and globally. This problem is similar to what happened in the 1920's before the 'black tuesday' big crash and has some similar economic problems. Yes, it is true that the global stock markets have some of the same safety features as before; yet, the same problem of the money pooling in a small section of society unchecked remains.

Companies not only outsource their jobs overseas; but they abuse the laws for becomming monopolies while dancing upon the fence to claim they are not. These same companies control the options for much of the avaialble media both directly and indirectly. AOL-Time-Warner and Comcast with it's ownership of Tech TV and G4 both are excellent exmaples of companies that have claimed monopolies, the worst part is that by communicating with each other they have pushed forward to using identical services and technologies. Whether you go to Akron, OH, Denver, CO or Warner Robbins, GA the digital box systems are the same, the services costs are almost identical(averaing 40 dollars a month for cable modem, 30 dollars for basic service, 60 dollars for digital, 15 for HDTV capability), the service level all of such poor quality that it should be unacceptable, yet they have no competition past the sattelite dish systems which have their own limitation.

These examples of Wal-Mart, Target, AOL-Time-Warner and Comcast are all guily of many different destructions of the US Marketplace. Today even a college degree does not promise that one will find a job that even pays what is considered to be a living wage (Between 16 and 22 dollars an hour depending upon location in the US). The supreme irony of this has become that America has forgotten and the world is forgetting what makes it potentially great, the people, the middle class, education and a non-apathetic populace.

Now for the hardest part, the solution to the problem, isn't quite as hard as it seems because it has already stared us in the face before. We need to push forward a working educational system, universal health care on a basic level, fair living wages offered for the minimum wage and an active governmental investment in bringing forward individual inventors developing cleaner fuel sources and companies that would allow for a company to become fuel independant again.

These suggested solutions are only the tip of the iceberg, the system that needs developement is a bit socialistic and a bit capitolistic to allow the offer of reasonable rewards for individual success without allowing people to gain so much individual power that they are literally capable of buying the country (or politician) of their choice.