Blaming widespread "faulty" voting machines is bad for Democrats

[ProudToBeLiberal]

It is bad for Democrats on so many levels. One it disenfranchise Democrats. This idea of blaming it on BBV puts down people. It makes people helpless and makes them give up.

I already see the evil tentacles of BBV grabbing hold of people on DU. Like here...http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1404161&mesg_id=1404171

We have to accept responsibility that we lost, not because of some "widespread faulty voting machines" but that the other side outplayed us in campaigning. We just have to try harder.

Don't let this notion of BBV take away your motivation and your will to win.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FtWayneBlue]

2. Yeah, I want to give up . . . .

the blankety-blank machines. Where I helped in Sandusky OH, botched recount, a person on the BOE there said the touch screen machines (used in other places) should all be smashed! He knew they were no good.

Paper ballots, hand counted at the precinct level, is the only way to restore faith in the Democratic process.

Period, end of story.

[Demit]

3. So we should suppress the proof, eh? As bad for morale?

[simcha_6]

4. As an exercise in futility.n/t

[ProudToBeLiberal]

6. What is truth but to the beholder?

The arguments goes like this
A: Democrats lost because of BBV
B: I see
A: In order for a Democrat to ever win again in the presidential election we need to address this problem
B: ok...
A: But the politicians and media aren't paying attention to this issue
B.uh huh
A. I mean whats the worth of voting and contributing if they are going to lose anyway? Fuck this I give up, until we fix the voting machines I'm not going to vote, because it's useless.

[thecai]

5. Call Them RIGGED, Instead

It's not our responsibility to accept "that we lost". America lost. We need to step up and DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR ELECTION FRAUD/THEFT.

[KittyWampus]

7. Sorry, But It's Not Who Votes But Who COUNTS THE VOTES.

there is only one reason for these machines to suck so bad.

Now, we just have to figure a way to PROVE it in a court of law.

Edit- people need to be educated.

More and more people know SOMETHING about BBV.

IMO, Democrats would do well to bring this subject more out in the open under the banner of "clean elections".

[Skittles]

8. stealing elections is bad for democracy

assholes

[ProudToBeLiberal]

9. I'm not arguing against that point

I'm arguing that blaming on some abstract idea is bad for Democrats, as the reason stated above.

[Skittles]

14. I don't think it is an "abstract idea"

the last few elections have been filled with fraud

[ProudToBeLiberal]

16. Like I said truth but to the beholder. nt

[Skittles]

58. the beholders of the voting machines

are thieving, lying bastards

[leesa]

10. Shhh.....let's pretend it didn't happen. Let's be good little Dems now!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

12. you're presuming that it did happen

You're blaming it on some abstract idea and not taking responsibilty. It's like saying, "he made me do it."

[vince3]

11. If the Dems owned the voting machines......

and the republicans had been told that they had lost two straight elections, the republicans would not be quiet about the election process.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

13. two wrongs don't make a right nt

[sendero]

15. Thank you..

.... some people just can't face the fact that vote counting has gone Enron, so they make up all kinds of bullshit reasons why we should shut up and sit down.

Sorry - not buying it. I don't want to wait until we have a 10% margin, more than they can cheat away, to win.

There is nothing wrong with demanding a paper trail. In the words of an ex-president that many respect, "trust, but verify".

[ProudToBeLiberal]

18. Nothings wrong with wanting a paper trail

I actually advocate a paper trail; however, some people go beyond that by blaming the loss of the presidential election on "widespread faulty voting machines." We have to take responsibilty that we lost because the other side campaigned better than us.

[sendero]

20. No....

... we lost the election because FL and OH were stolen. The machines weren't "faulty", they were rigged. And those who refuse to see it still think the earth is flat.

Eventually this will all come out. I'm sure you'll post a mea culpa at that time.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

21. oh now they are "rigged"...

So according to you Dean's 50 state strategy doesn't matter because the voting machines are rigged. according to you voting doesn't matter because the voting machines are rigged. according to you contributing and campaigning doesn't matter because the voting machines are rigged. According to you we just give up participating in civic and political life because the it doesn't matter the voting machines are rigged.

We should just sit on our lazy asses and watch the sun go around the world. I see. Now I know what this BBV is all about.

[sendero]

22. Yes...

... they have been stealing votes since before 2000 and the only thing that will stop them is:

1) winning by such a margin that they simply cannot explain the discrepancy between the exit polls and the vote counts

2) someone screwing up and getting caught or coming forward.

Someone already did come forward in FL but then they committed suicide. Funny how that happens.

I never said "give up" but get real, the votes are being stolen. Simple as that.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

23. No thats what you're advocating though "giving up"

You can't believe in voting machines but then be for civic particpation. That would be Hypocritical. It's like saying animals are sentient beings, but then you go to mcdonalds and order a big mac. If voting machines are rigged, but you still advocate voting then that doesn't make sense. Because voting wouldn't matter anyway.

[liam_laddie]

29. rigged or not?

Proud - please don't be so touchy. There are hundreds of
researchers out here studying countless anomalies in recent national and state elections.
The technology exists to rig an election's outcome with just
a very few knowing how it is accomplished. I'm in no way a
programming-knowledgeable expert...but I'm 67, have spent
enough time in this culture, and business, to make some judgments about human nature, evidence, and trust in the ol' gut feeling...Gladwell's Blink...to know that what Josef Stalin said
decades ago..."Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." is accurate. Good enough for me!
Do some more homework; your idealism will be seriously challenged. We ALL must work to stop the counting of
votes and the control of election technology and processes, by private corporations in thrall to the radical right wealth in the USA.
My two Euros...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

27. Ohhhhhhh I now see the light

BBV is all about shifting the burden of losing to some abstract idea. ohhhhhh I now see the light. Instead of we, the people bearing responsibilty, we blame it on the "other." You know those others.

[thecai]

34. Place The Blame...

...where it belongs. On the theives.
It is our duty as American citizens to protect The Constitution. Election fraud/theft is unConstitutional.
YOU cave in and give up. I CAN'T.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

35. If I "gave up" it would mean i gave up on something

I would mean that I believed in BBV in the first place. so that argument is invalid. Next please.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

47. Oh I see people with different viewpoints don't matter

no wonder people think Democrats are elitist. I on the otherhand welsome other views AND disgreements. Political discourse makes the world go round. When the day comes that a single voice is stifled that will be the day when democracy ends.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

56. ok you just gave me so much more leeway

I agree with you, BBV is just another conspiracy theory. I agree with you that Republicans are help spreading BBV theories to demoralize our troops into helplessness. I agree.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

59. oh btw

if arguing means=having a discussion, political discourse, talking, debating, contemplating...then yes I like to argue

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[me b zola]

52. "faulty voting machings" bushit!!!

They are corruptable machines, privately owned, with private source codes, and no way to audit them.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

57. you're missing my points

go ahead and replace "faulty" with rigged. I stand by my statement.

[BillZBubb]

17. Bingo! vince3 hits the nail on the head!

You are EXACTLY right. And welcome to DU too.

Instead we are told to be nice, meek liberals and accept whatever gets shoved down our throats. Enough of that!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

19. Who said we needed to be meek?

Is voting and campaigning "meek?" Is being motivated and enrgized being meek?

[thecai]

28. Absolutely True, Vince3

Welcome to DU!

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

26. I see...

I have to accept what they told us was a lie. Do I have to accept also that 9/11 was a government coverup? Do I have to accept that the Government are keeping aliens in Area 51? Do I have to accept that George Bush is inherently evil? Oh please tell me, like you said, "We know it. They know it. Everybody knows it."

[shance]

37. You will accept what you want to accept Proud.

as we all do.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

39. exactly now you see my point nt

[liam_laddie]

31. kick!

beautiful statement, shance

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thecai]

49. Excellent Post, Shance

I couldn't have said it better!:applause:

[WildEyedLiberal]

30. BS

No one who acknowledges election fraud thinks we should stop working. But pretending that our elections are on the up-and-up is plain delusion. I guess you'd rather ignore that Diebold's president promised to "deliver Ohio to Bush"? Well, he did. And you can pretend it was just bad campaigning on our part, but that lets Rove and the shysters off the hook - and lets them get away with defrauding our democracy. And that's bullshit.

[thecai]

42. Sure Is!

Great post, WildEyedLiberal!

And it's our responsibility to call them out on their bs....

[ProudToBeLiberal]

43. I do not share with your viewpoint

actually I do not share your attitude of helplessness. I do not share your attitude of, "It doesn't matter who we run, they are going to lose anyway."

[WildEyedLiberal]

46. Show me where I advocated helplessness

Go on, show me.

I'm pretty sure I never said anything close to what you're paraphrasing my attitude to be. So don't put words in my mouth, ok?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

51. ok

No one who acknowledges election fraud thinks we should stop working. But pretending that our elections are on the up-and-up is plain delusion. I guess you'd rather ignore that Diebold's president promised to "deliver Ohio to Bush"? Well, he did. And you can pretend it was just bad campaigning on our part, but that lets Rove and the shysters off the hook - and lets them get away with defrauding our democracy. And that's bullshit.

From this post I extrapolated the helplessness. Because first you were responding to my post about how BBV spreads helplessness. But you on the other hand advocated that there is voting machine fraud. But, my argument was based about people who argued there was faulty voting machine and that it was causing helplessness.

[WildEyedLiberal]

53. What are you talking about

" From this post I extrapolated the helplessness. Because first you were responding to my post about how BBV spreads helplessness. But you on the other hand advocated that there is voting machine fraud. But, my argument was based about people who argued there was faulty voting machine and that it was causing helplessness."

You extrapolated a great deal, it looks to me like. I obviously think your argument that stating that there was election fraud is akin to causing "helplessness" is a crock of bullshit. So don't attribute your logical fallacy to me. That's YOUR belief, not mine. I never said a damn thing about being helpless.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

54. well

comments like these, "it doesn't matter who we run, because they're going to rig it anyway" don't count as helplessness? What is it then joyfulness?

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thecai]

62. Makes No Sense To Me, Either

WildEyedLiberal, NOTHING you said sounded anything even slightly similar to "helplessness". Sounded powerful to me.
The truth IS a powerful weapon, which many prefer we abandon.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vinnie From Indy]

32. Nonsense!

The original post is silly. Of course Democrats should demand free, transparent and fair elections. It should be their number one issue. Everything else is just so much bleating. De "nile" ain't just a river in Egypt!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

36. Oh I see we shouldn't advocate for healthcare

We shouldn't advocate of feeding the poor, we shouldn't advocate for civil liberties. We shouldn't advocate for the environment. OHHH I see please continue.

[seabeyond]

33. hush up the fact bush stole election, dont want to depress dem?

is that it. well. k. lets all be quiet, lke i told myself prior to this election, they stole 2000, she just dont think about it and maybe they wont do it 2004. oops, they did. k pretend it didnt happen to not depress the dem vote,...........for 2006????

nope. truth has to be told. lite of the day. gotta be fix, or we dont win

[ProudToBeLiberal]

38. Yah but your premise is faulty

Your assuming that I share your viewpoint in the first place. Which is wrong

[seabeyond]

44. granted, equally you assumption is the same

and i dont

[ProudToBeLiberal]

48. Well I guess we're using circular logic hmmm?

I bet we can agree on that point then.

[Dave Sund]

40. You're absolutely right

Resigning ourselves to this is totally, completely wrong.

It pisses me off every time I see someone here say "it doesn't matter who we run, because they're going to rig it anyway."

Fuck that attitude. It undermines our efforts to do real good.

The idea that we lost only because of BBV ignores many, many things about our party that are very, very wrong. It ignores our Senate losses. It ignores misallocated campaign funding. It ignores terrible party organization on the state level, and a GOTV effort that was poorly coordinated.

I don't really care what your attitude is toward the 2004 election, but if you continue to insist that everything's fine with the Democratic Party, and the only reason we lost is because they cheated, you're ignoring real problems that we have. It should have never been close. We should have won in a landslide, regardless of whether you think we actually lost. The fact that we didn't speaks to a very real problem with the Democratic Party. One that all of you ignore by continuing to blame all of our problems on Diebold.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

41. I am really thankful

You have put it much more eloquently than I.

[Skittles]

60. very few of us think only BBV is to blame

however, we think stolen elections are a very real problem and need to be dealt with - not ignored as an "abstract idea"

[Dr Ron]

50. Better working assumption

Dwelling on the idea that the election was stolen has been harmful to Democrats on so many levels.

There's the "tin foil hat" aspect which has reduced credibility.

There's the increased in-fighting as people who are totally uniformed about what Kerry has been doing post election are attacking him for giving up when he really won.

There's the risk that Democrats will fail to work in future elections feeling it is futile.

There's the failure to look at strategies to get more votes in the future.

I wouldn't 100% rule out the possibility of fraud, and we certainly know there was voter suppression going on. These issues are being addressed, but to dwell on them assuming the election was stolen when this is far from proven is counterproductive.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

67. Locking

This has digressed into a flamefest.