Sorry, I love high gas prices.

[dhinojosa]

Hey everyone, happy Tuesday! :)

Here are the reasons why I love high gas prices. Love it! Love it! Love it!

1. Less SUVS on the road


2. It will force better city transportation


3. It will force better intercity transportation (Hello magnetic bullet trains!)


4. It will get my fat ass, as well as everyone's fat ass on a bike!


5. It will lead to more telecommuting jobs, great for families.


6. EMT vehicles can get to destinations faster


7. It will drop the cost for health and auto insurance.


8. It will lessen our dependence on Saudi Arabia, and terrorist nation beds


9. It will keep "oil-funded" politicians out of office


10. Cleaner environment


11. Cooler temperatures, due, to less roads


12. Better preservation of our wildlife preserves


13. Obviously lower road rage, and car accidents

All this can happen quickly too because there is no greater catalyst than chaos. Thanks to these high prices, we will probably pursue these quicker.

Anyways those are my reasons, there are probably more, but those are the ones that came to mind!

[PeaceProgProsp]

1. It will increase the political power of oil companies.

And it will decrease the political power of liberal third world governments which will see their economic development stagnate and then will have to be on the hook with debt to the IMF.

[WI_DEM]

3. one thing that should be considered but Bush would veto is

a windfall profits tax on big oil companies.

[ClassWarrior]

69. Buy Citgo and lower our dependence on TERRORIST OIL.

Citgo is wholly owned by the PEOPLE of Venezuela.

And I think "Terrorist Oil" should be our next big frame.

NGU.

[cquik18]

122. Really?

Where can I find find out more about Venzuelan ownership of Citgo?

[WI_DEM]

2. I agree with many of your sentiments

I work 3 miles from where I live and I walk at least 4 times per week to work and home only takes about an hour and it really clears my mind and is great exercise.

[phantom power]

4. "chaos" is overrated.

This is what "chaos" would look like:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/7203633

Let's all hope it doesn't play out that way.

[rocktivity]

5. You're sorry, all right.

;)
rocknation

[Wat_Tyler]

6. Try living outside of a major urban area.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. I spent seven years in a small rural town

It was entirely walkable, even though most of the residents chose to drive short distances.

When my car was totaled in an accident, I walked out to the dealership on the edge of town to get a new one, and no one could believe that I had walked, even though it took only a half an hour. Meanwhile, the foreign students at the local college (but not the American students) also walked or biked all over town. (Some of the American students used to drive from one end of the campus to the other--a distance of three blocks.)

[cheezus]

85. ditto that for a "large" north dakota city

which is really just a smalish suburb with no bigcity :)

The foreign students walk everywhere, but nobody else does. The town is fully bikable, and you can even load your bicycle onto the city bus!

Still, everyone drives everywhere, even when it would be a 10 min walk. Hell, even from one parking lot to another in the shopping area!

[Speck Tater]

7. 14. It will drive Walmart out of business

When it's no longer cheaper to make things in China and ship them half way around the world that will mean more local jobs.

[dhinojosa]

10. Lovely!!!!!!!!!!!

Woooohoooo!

[Zappa]

29. Gas prices & ANWR

Higher gas prices will get ANWR production going that much faster. I suspect we'll see full production in less than seven years.

[w4rma]

55. And that oil will be sent to China and Japan.

What good will that drilling do for Americans?

[Snivi Yllom]

70. agreed that it will make the extraction cost of ANWR oil lucrative

for the world markets. It wont be sold in the US, but oil is a world commodity already, so it's irrelevant.

[CatholicEdHead]

32. Drive vendors out of business first

before WalMart feels pain. The vendors will be forced to make more cuts which will lead to bankruptsies. WalMart will keep bulling them more and more and more for the "lowest price".

Eventually it will hurt them, but they have lots of margin for error.

[imenja]

59. dream on

Gas prices don't effect Walmart any more negatively than any other business. In fact, large corporations are the ones best able to bear the burden.

[LimpingLib]

8. Love the enivonmental assault too?

Unless we offer alternative fuels at a comparable price then we better just brace ourselves for the worst environmental attack the world has ever seen in the coming years.

I actually talk to people and they believe the "environ wackos" are the reason gas prices are high. Blacks , whites,browns, etc... whatever... all tell me that there is endless oil in the oceans.

Drillers, assume you positions.


Let the assault begin!!!!

[7th_Sephiroth]

9. i have to work traveling

and i install energy management systems, i save millions a year in energy consumption, but if i cannot go from location to location (i need to carry ALOT of tools too, so public transport is out)

[dhinojosa]

14. Sure. That is definitely needed. No one would expect you to.

I was thinking more about the regular shmoe going to the office.

[7th_Sephiroth]

17. if we cant get across the country without a loan

we can not help in lowering energy consumptopn, funny isint it?

[LosinIt]

19. Well, that's nice, but this regular shmoe can't afford it like this.

I chose to raise my children in a small town, but my job is in the city. Here my son can walk down the street and go fishing if he wants. We can walk over to where our boat is to go sailing.

I made the choice to live here many years ago. It seems a shame that I may have to totally change my way of life because of this. Remember that everyone does not live where mass transit is a choice. Carpooling would be out of the question since I work nights. In this small village of around 500 people I doubt I would have much luck finding anyone whose schedule would match mine.

[dhinojosa]

20. Sorry,....

but you are going to have to change your way of life in one way or another, whether we use cars or not. Are the high gas prices causing a pinch in your income now (sounds like you are self employed)?

[LosinIt]

54. I live about 45 miles from Rochester on the shore of Lake Ontario

I work the graveyard shift at a global customer support center, which is a great job with the exception of the guy from Mumbai who insists on calling us from his cell phone in traffic. I have been thinking about negotiating the ability to work from home at least one night a week. Technically, it is feasible, but politically it will piss off the other people who have to come into the office.

Here is a link to where I live, perhaps you can understand my passion if you check this out.

http://www.greatsodusbay.com

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. If gas prices go sky high, people will start demanding some sort of

transit, even if it's just a van running into town every hour.

[MadHound]

61. So, are you proposing that us rural folks need to move to the city?

If so, well sorry, I'm staying out in the country. Gee, out here I can grow my own organic food, produce my own electricity, responsibly harvest wood for my wood stove(complete with catalytic converter), and make my own biodiesel.

Meanwhile, when the effects of Peak Oil hit, and the urban areas are having food riots due to outrageous prices, you might be rethinking your position a bit.

I also find your glee distasteful to say the least. You are laughing at the misery that rising energy prices are going to cause the poor and lower middle classes, people whose money is already stretched to the breaking point, and you are wanting to pile more on top? How utterly irresponsible of you!

Rather than wallowing in your schadenfreude, why don't you get out there and start doing something productive, like pushing for your local power company to start using renewable energy sources, or start making biodiesel, something, anything that will lessen the impact of the coming catastrophe. People are going to die because of this, yet you're laughing:eyes: How sick is that?

[dhinojosa]

88. Are you a born-again liberal? Cause you let your freeper side out.

Your quote: "People are going to die because of this, yet you're laughing:eyes: How sick is that?"

When I have a post conversation with republicans they are always phrasing questions with a tactic like that:

Example. "Do you support the troops? of course you don't!" Of course they not only questioned me, but answered for me too, without giving me a chance to answer for myself. Then they really finish their unprofound statement with something like "Nuff said"

We don't have to be like them.

[MadHound]

94. LOL friend, I'll stack my liberal creds, and my humanity,

Up against yours anyday. And I find it quite telling that you are resorting with ad hominem attacks in lieu of facts.

Face it friend, you either haven't thought through the consequences of this madness of yours, or you just don't give a damn.

The higher oil prices go, the higher food, heating, electric, and virtually all other commodities goes. That is going to put a squeeze on many many low income people. Families will have to start making choices between food or gas, heat or medicine, etc. etc. AND YES, PEOPLE WILL DIE FROM THOSE CHOICES! Some poor soul in Chicago, New York, or wherever this summer will choose to pay for the food over the hiked up electric bill, have no AC and die! Hell, it happens every year, even without rate hikes, people are that poor. It will only increase with the increase in energy costs.

I've been homeless, I've also volunteered in helping the poor and homeless. I've seen the consequences that forcing such choices on America's poor lead to, and it isn't pretty, funny, nor liberal. It is a matter of life and death, and the fact that you are feeling such joy and smugness about this I quite frankly find disgusting. Tell you what friend, why don't you walk in these peoples' shoes, just for a month, see what an increase in the price of nesseccities will do, then come back and tell me how high gas prices are such a good thing:eyes:

Or perhaps you just haven't thought this all through, that you're simply coming from the perspective of a bourgesie liberal. Well, if that is the case, you need to get out of your ACed home, away from all of your electronic toys, and go down and volunteer to help the poor and homeless, go out and see what really goes on.

You think that such a price increase is going to stop people from driving SUVs and such, well sorry friend, it won't. If they can afford the damn things, they can very well afford the gas. Yeah, you will get a small percentage to get rid of the SUVs, but for the most part, the 'burban yuppies will just grumble and pay.

If you really want to make an energy difference, first off, stop the war in Iraq. Do you realize how much fuel we're burning up by the hour? And no, I'm not going to tell you, you need to go do some reasearch and be suprised. Secondly though, you could start a campaign like I helped with last election cycle, which forced our local utilities to start getting an ever increasing percentage of their power from renewable resources. Even better, you could switch over to renewables yourself.

But no, apparently you'd rather dis somebody on an anonymous chat board because they dared to question you cold hearted schadenfreude. Whatever:eyes:

[dhinojosa]

102. Lying and saying I laugh at people dying is an ad hominem attack.

You can back track and shuffle all you want now. But I never said I laughed at people dying, and you know it. You are no better than any republican. Maybe you should ask me first on what I thought about home heating and possible solutions I may or may not have, but you know the theme of my post was about gas for vehicles.

:(

[MadHound]

112. Gee, what else am I to infer from posts like

"Sorry, I love high gas prices" and "Kaaa Chaaaa, hahahaha"?
Sounds like schadenfreude and laughter to me:shrug:

And yes, you were talking about gas for cars, so was I. But I'm also looking at the bigger picture, something that you apparently aren't doing.

Even leaving out the issues of heating oil and power generation, did you even take into consideration the inflation factor for food and the other commodities, the vast majority of which are shipped by truck? Did you even think of the impact those prices will have on the poor and less well off? Or are you simply wanting to limit the discussion to suburban SUV drivers(even though the reality of the matter is much broader)?

And you can call me freeper and republican all you want, since it seems that is all you can do in the face of the larger implications of rising oil prices, it's OK, I have a thick skin. But let me ask you this. How many freepers and republicans do you know who are: A. Concerned about the poor in relation to rising energy costs like I am? B. Actively perusing sound energy alternatives, both personally and publicly? Most Republicans I know have tunnel vision on such matters, ie how will it effect them. Narrow of focus, sound familiar?

So, now that we've got that out of the way, what is your solution to our looming energy crisis, including transportation, heating, cooling etc. etc.? Or do you simply wish to imply that I'm a freeper again?:eyes:

[dhinojosa]

115. Gee, I don't know, maybe what the post says explicitly?

"Sorry, I love high gas prices"?
Well that says nothing about me laughing at dying people nor did the original post.

"Kaaa Chaaaa, hahahaha"?
Well that was another post when we were talking about Klingons in star trek buying commodities from a planet, and I wasn't making fun of dying people there either.

So Please tell me, where I have made fun of dying people? I understand that people need heat and they always have had that problem during the Clinton admin. But you are accusing of me of something I didn't do, and I will be happy to talk and hopefully resolve personal heating issues, but first I need to know where you think I have made fun of dying people?

Look, lets resolve this, you can help:

* Find me a post in this thread where I have explicitly laughed at dying people because of home heating, and I will apologize.

* If you are unable to find a post where I expicitly laughed at people I hope that you have a strong, liberal, and moral fortitude to apologize whereas I will accept immediately.

[MadHound]

117. Not asking for apologies friend,

I'm asking for you to use your head for something besides a hat rack. Think of what the big picture is, what high gas prices mean, not only for consumption by SUVs, but for food prices, heating prices, etc. etc.

Instead, you're simply focusing on the SUV driver. There's a lot more to it than that. Now then, do you have any plans or propositions to ease the problems that high gas prices will bring to the poor, or will you simply be shortsighted and think that it is all great because SUV drivers will be feeling some pinch in the pocketbook?

[MadHound]

118. Not asking for apologies friend,

I'm asking for you to use your head for something besides a hat rack. Think of what the big picture is, what high gas prices mean, not only for consumption by SUVs, but for food prices, heating prices, etc. etc.

Instead, you're simply focusing on the SUV driver. There's a lot more to it than that. Now then, do you have any plans or propositions to ease the problems that high gas prices will bring to the poor, or will you simply be shortsighted and think that it is all great because SUV drivers will be feeling some pinch in the pocketbook?

[dhinojosa]

121. I know I am just focusing on the SUV driver.

I could expand to other avenues, instead you just attacked me saying I was a schadenfreude(sp?) who laughed at people dying, which I have no idea where you got that!?!?!

I have to go and teach now. We can talk about alt.energy in this or another post later

[LimpingLib]

21. TRUST ME..your in good shape if you can provide your own food.

Stay as rural as possible and grow your own food.

Oil will slowly dry up , and the environment will be slaughtered slowly as we scrape every corner of the coasts , it wont be a SUDDEN change as many kamakaze dreamers make it sound.

Fresh water fish will perhaps escape the environmental assault.

Its the city folk that will die a slow painful death.

Im a little inbetween but always gravitate rural.

[tavalon]

53. Yeah, that's my thoughts exactly

but how to defend one's plot of land, that's the kicker.

I've always been one of those anti-gun libruls. I'm starting to see that my world view may be a little naive.

[dhinojosa]

103. Living rural isn't necessarily going to save your life either....

Sorry it didn't sound right. So I researched it, as a general population, rural and urban have lower life expectancy. But this is generalizing. I think you can live an excellent life wherever you live. But I love your idea of growing your own food, and I love even more the idea of me buying the natural food you grow and put the corporate farms out of business. :)

http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/pressrel/r010910.htm

The report, "Health, United States, 2001, with Urban and Rural Health Chartbook," documents differences in a wide-ranging set of health characteristics for people residing in communities from the most rural to the most urban. Among its specific findings:

* Death rates for working-age adults were higher in the most rural and most urban areas. The highest death rates for children and young adults were in the most rural counties.

* Residents of rural areas had the highest death rates for unintentional injuries generally and for motor-vehicle injuries specifically. Homicide rates were highest in the central counties of large metro areas.

* Suburban residents were more likely to exercise during leisure time and more likely to have health insurance. Suburban women were the least likely to be obese.

* Both the most rural and most urban areas had a similarly high percent of residents without health insurance.

* Teenagers and adults in rural counties were the most likely to smoke. Residents of the most rural communities also had the fewest visits for dental care.

The chartbook presents detailed analysis of population characteristics, health risk factors, health status indicators, and health care access measures for residents of counties grouped by five urbanization levels. It also examines patterns by region of the country.

[Lugnut]

43. How about

The regular shmoe who is hauling your food, clothing and every other thing trucks haul that consumers need and use every day? Increased fuel costs translate into increased grocery prices as well as the cost of everything that truck hauls.

[demnan]

11. I don't mind it for myself

but I feel sorry for truckers and cab drivers and the like, people for whom this is really cutting into their income. It's always the little people who are hurt first, while the assholes will still be laughing in their Hummers.

[raccoon]

67. Not only them,

how about the people making minimum wage, or not much more, and
have no way to get back & forth to work but to drive?

[seventythree]

97. and those who use public transit

see the fares going up and up as the fuel costs more for the busses.

I fear that the increased cost of energy, while causing some positive changes, in the end, makes the sheep far more likely to support a war to get oil.

[wryter2000]

12. OTOH

I love to listen to people who commute, one person in an SUV, complain about the prices. But I feel sorry for folks like cab drivers who are getting squeezed.

[colonel odis]

18. cab fleets ought to be among the first to convert to hybrid and/or

hydrogen cell. as it becomes too expensive to drive, people will use cabs more. when people use cabs more, fares will go up. so i believe the cabbie will come out ok in the end.

[dhinojosa]

104. I like optimistic solutions like yours...

I have been seeing a lot of 'eh it will never work' ever since I posted this post. :)

[GOPBasher]

13. I agree with you totally. I like all of your reasons, PLUS

I think it'll be funny when people realize that raping Alaska will NOT bring down gas prices. I wish we didn't have to do that, but since it's going to happen, I at least want to see public reaction when it doesn't bring the bill down. Perhaps then they'll realize that the oil companies are just screwing us? :shrug:

[doodadem]

15. Ever feel like you're living in a Star Trek episode?

One of the old ones, where the intrepid Trekers desperately need some particular commodity for the Federation from some backward, savage residents on an uncivilized planet. And unfortunately, those unscrupulous Klingons are bidding against them for the same commodity.
Clue: The U.S. is the Klingon Empire.......

[dhinojosa]

16. KAAAAACHH CHA!!!!

hahaha

[Withywindle]

22. psssst....

*whispers* I'm with ya. I'm a happy city dweller who hasn't owned a car in 10 years, don't miss it much. I feel bad for the cab drivers, though. I try to tip more than I used to when I can.

[leyton]

23. Well, I dislike them.

I live in a city that basically requires you to have a car, but is also a city that is doing its darndest to build light rail. So where I am, gas prices just mean that we pay more money. I appreciate the sentiment, and obviously you're not the one controlling gas prices, but if someone were intentionally raising gas prices for any reason, it's a twisted reason in my book.

[libnnc]

79. wouldn't it be dreamy if we had light rail that connected

Charlotte and Asheville to Raleigh/DU/CH, with stops in Winston-Salem and Greensboro/Burlington along the way?

wouldn't that be loverly?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

24. I basically agree with you

But I still worry about the working poor who are having a tough time now with the gas prices the way they are.

[Vinca]

25. It's not just gas prices, it's heating oil prices, too.

We've spent a small fortune heating the house this winter. Some of our neighbors have wood stoves or furnaces, but of course that pollutes the air. I'd love to go solar, but our 18th century house will never be insulated enough and I couldn't afford to have the place converted anyway. Many people in northern climates are suffering great hardship because of the high oil/gas prices and I don't see an "up" side to it. As for the idea of bicycling or walking, it's great if you can. We live on a dirt road, 3 miles from civilization. I could manage it, but I doubt my 90 year old neighbor could.

[high density]

50. Oh but expensive heating oil..

...leads to lower health and auto insurance, right?!

:eyes:

Sorry, but all this glee about high oil prices drives me nuts when so many people are spending more money that they don't have for the bare necessities of modern life (heat in the house, gas for the car to get to work) and some of the people here on DU think it's just fantastic.

[Vinca]

57. ?????????????????????

Lower health insurance? Ours went up 39% to 1/4 of our income and we had to drop it. I've been sick for 2 weeks with a potentially serious problem and in no mood for off-the-wall speculations about the rosy future due to high oil prices. (Sorry, the pain's making me cranky.)

[high density]

84. Sorry, I was being sarcastic...

The initial poster in this thread said that high fuel prices were somehow going to lead to lower health and auto insurance costs.

[Vinca]

86. I should have realized. Sorry I took it the wrong way. nt

[Robin Hood]

26. I hear a lot about how people are going to be affected.

But I can't help but wonder how the heck we got along before the industrial revolution and oil consumption?

I read the whole rolling stone article and it paints a very real picture of what's coming up in our near future. You can already see the storm building. It will all begin to unravel at 5.00bucks a gallon.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

27. So far driving habits haven't changed...

That means just as many SUV's...

[Wabbajack]

28. There is no evidence less people are driving

[Zappa]

30. Gas prices generally don't change driving behavior.

Ever been to Europe? Gas has been around $6/gallon for years and the roads are packed, especially the autobahn. Trains and buses are rarely full. Gas prices generally don't change driving behavior. People will just cut back elsewhere.

[tabasco]

39. Wrong answer.

Trains and buses are packed in Germany during commuting hours.

European cars get a lot better mileage than US cars and many are diesel.

The autobahn gets crowded sometimes because you have 84 million people in a country half the size of Texas.

Nice try at your talking points.

I lived in Germany for four years and will be living there again permanently.

[Zappa]

65. "Wrong answer."

The autobahn gets crowded sometimes because you have 84
million people in a country half the size of Texas.

Exactly my point. 84 million people driving their cars.

[katamaran]

31. It's really weird...

and it may be my imagination, but I think I see less cars on the road right now. I usually see a fair amount of cars in the afternoon around 3pm on my way to work, but I'll go a couple miles on the INTERSTATE and only see half a dozen cars. And this is a busy area.

[adigal]

33. I always said I was born in the wrong century

and since I was a kid, in the 70s, I was fascinated by the possibility of solar and wind power. A man my father knew got all of his electricity from a windmill in his back yard and he had a solar heated house, aided by a wood stove when it was very cold.

This winter, after the oil bill for one month in our new house was $800, we heated the house almost exclusively by a wood stove. I know LOTS of neighbors in my old area who could not afford oil heat, so they used a wood stove. My father, for 15 years from about 1970 to 1985, got all of our heat and hot water using a wood stove in the basement hooked up to the water heater. Not a lot of fun, I tell you, but it worked. My understanding is that pellet stoves are cleaner and easier to deal with, so I would be looking for one of them if I lived in the suburbs. I would also be looking for a scooter or stable bike of some sort. In my house in the country, in a town where they are going to put up windmills which will provide power for the area, I am going to explore solar panels on the roof. I am also going to look into enclosing a porch in glass, where vegetables can be raised all year long. We have many things we can do to make this less scary. A big thing I cannot control is gas and my car, but I have confidence that some brilliant scientist somewhere is tinkering, or has already tinkered, and come up with a way around the gasoline problem. We may not be able to drive as much as we do now, but is that such a bad thing? How about taking a high speed train?

My point is that we here are at an advantage - we are aware of the problem and can think of ways to protect our families if it ever comes to this. And I think this new world might actually be better in many ways than the soulless suburbs most of us live in. I am not downplaying the dangers, but we are an ingenious lot, and I have faith that we can face the challenges ahead, using ingenuity and science, and make the world a place where we can survive quite well.

[lostinacause]

34. High prices are GOOD???????

Gasoline has inelastic demand. Because of this; more money is going out of America to pay for gasoline with no gains coming from it. American families will spend more of their income on gasoline. The hardest felt will not be the luxury sport utility drivers as even $100 extra a month isn't that much if you pay $60,000 for a new vehicle. Because of the high rates it is likely that the amount of money that oil companies make giving both the Middle East and special interest groups more power. Because of the increased costs of gasoline (and every other product) the price for health insurance will not go down as much as may be anticipated.

High oil prices will lead to fewer jobs which will likely hurt families more then telecommuting will help. Even if people are able to take transit it will still serve to double the commute.

Transportation projects involve large amounts of capital. Looking at the deficit and debt you will see that there is not a lot of room for additional spending.

New road projects may be decreased but it will take a massive change in infrastructure to start removing any. Regarding any alternative fuels the key is technology. Technology takes time to develop so until then we are left with high prices.

Regarding less accidents and the environmental impact, you do have a point on both of those.

I might add that high prices will increase the trade deficit further and will also increase the deficit.

[FrenchieCat]

35. Thank goodness

I work at home!

[dogman]

36. Imagine what a good bout of the plague could do.

[IronLionZion]

37. Those goals are honorable

too bad you're high on those pipe dreams. You and I will die before any of those goals are reached.

Have you heard of things like "suburban sprawl" or "trucks" or "diesel trains"? We would have to radically restructure everything to achieve the utopia that exists only your unrealistic liberal imagination. Since the 50's we have been spreading out like viruses and depend on cars because everything is so damn far away from our homes. Communities just aren't designed for pedestrians. I don't have a car and it is unholy hell to walk to the grocery store in this poorly planned suburb. I fear for my life when I walk on the side of a road as cars are zipping past me at 65 mph.

How do you think goods are shipped around this country. Chances are the parts in the computer your are using came over here on oil-powered ships, trains, and trucks. And your food, clothes, medicine, books, furniture, everything gets around on trucks. All that will be more expensive as gas prices rise.

Libertarians hope the "free market will find a solution" but what will stop the oil companies from just cashing out and leaving us high and dry? They'll have to decide whether they want to remain "oil" companies or will switch over to being "energy" companies, and there are tremendous switching costs.

We already invade countries and kill people for oil, and you want chaos because it's a "catalyst"? What kind of delusional world are you living in?

Your heart's in the right place, but it's simply not realistic.

[LimpingLib]

38. Actually everything she said WILL HAPPEN.No choice avaliable.

People talk about "this price of oil" and "that price" but its not even the price that is the issue.

Its the fact that there simply isnt enough of it to continue to do what our nation has been doing.And as other economies grow (remember if the rest of the world follows our example , the worldas we know it is over since we are parasites using MANY times the oil we can ever hope to produce), there will be nothing left but starvation, war , environmental destruction , etc.


Maybe once we recover from the FIRST 3 steps (starvation,war, environmental chaos)which will come in a matter of years (not decades), then suffer mightily for decades , THEN and only then can a much reduced world population function around community outlines lited in the authors goals.

I just think we need a Democratic party that works toward visionary solutions as opposed to the 2 year myopia (GOTTA WIN every seat we can , heaven forbid we only win 43 seats instead of 44-46 "this November")which is going to lead our nation to ruin.

Look at it this way.To 90% of the world, Oil wont be avaliable at ANY price or ANY ration.And to the nations with the biggest militarys , it will be slim pickings but not outright starvation.

[dhinojosa]

40. Yep......and when the oil is near done, the military will hoard it.

we need to ween ourselves off of this now.

P.S. With the genitals I have I don't think I'm a she...

[IronLionZion]

41. it won't happen overnight

like some liberals think

It's gonna take decades to completely restructure the way we live. Whole communities will have to be re-planned to make things more accessible without cars. thousands and thousands of miles of rails will have to be built.

And the first step to solving this problem is admitting that we have a problem. You know how people are. They think everything is just hunky dory and any leader who says otherwise will be voted out.

The chaos that erupts will cause lots and lots of dead bodies. We need to gradually reduce our dependency on oil NOW!!! Check out the peak oil group for more discussion.

[tavalon]

51. I agree that the sentiment was expressed in a simplistic manner

but it's all going to happen anyway. Peak Oil is coming. The Suburbs will be destroyed, we will be unable to get those goods that we think we need, many people will be destroyed in the process. This country specifically is about to get a major clue by four upside the head. Why us? Because we are the most gluttonous ones.

All this poster is doing is pointing out some of the more positive effects of what is coming down the line.

Many of you guys are pointing out the more negative effects of what is coming down the line.

But it's all coming. And soon.

[IronLionZion]

74. Yes those positive effects are great, I want them too

but it's going to get much worse before it gets better, and a lot of good people will be hurt in the process. That's not something I take lightly.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. It's the cars and highways that caused the sprawl, not the other way aroun

Most cities had suburbs that looked like extensions of the city (think Daly City, California or Oak Park, Illinois or Edina, Minnesota) until the great freeway building boom of the 1960s--which happened to coincide with efforts to integrate urban schools in the North. (Nobody likes to talk about that part, but sprawl really took off in Minneapolis when integration rules were enacted for the city's public schools.)

[OneTwentyoNine]

42. Sorry,I don't love high gas prices.....

Your dreaming....The same people who HAVE to drive to their 1,2 or THREE jobs because of this GD Nazi regime will STILL have to drive even with gas prices increasing .12-13 cents or MORE per week.

I'm self-employed,I have to drive a cargo van which can haul the load but doesn't get great mileage. Every penny of this shit HURTS,especially in a Bush CRAP economy where raising your rates can mean the death of your company. I'm still charging the same rate as when Bush took office and am damn lucky to be getting that.

Higher gas prices only hurt those who can least afford yet another increase. Hell,some idiot driving a $40,000 SUV pulling down $125K could care less about these increases. Worse off all gas stations are in collusion,they just charge what the guy with the most pumps charges.There is NO competition,no gas wars anymore.

[Blue Topaz]

44. I'm with you!

I believe we are seeing the beginning of the end of cheap oil. Canadians and Europeans laugh at our whining about "high" prices. They are paying $5-$6 per gallon and can't imagine getting all twisted up over $2.20 per gallon. Higher prices will dampen demand, and that has many benefits.

The end of cheap oil will have a profound effect on our economy, in ways we perhaps can't even imagine. We have been STUPID for so long about wasting natural resources. We knew there was a finite supply of petroleum in the world, yet we gobbled it up in huge vehicles, decided we needed to truck in cardboard flavored tomatoes from Chile year round, allowed our society to go completely disposable for diapers, grocery bags, fast food containers, consumer packaging, etc, and worst of all, developed our land in horribly inefficient ways. Suburban sprawl is likely our worst enemy when it comes to resource utilization.

Call me smug, but I feel pretty good to live within walking/bicycling/bus distance of work, my kid's schools, shopping, the library, the health club, drs and dentist's office....

[realisticphish]

45. i live a half an hour

drive from my job. and unless the cows are willing to giving me a ride, there aren't any alternatives for me.

and, people who can afford giant suvs, hummers, etc, don't give a rats ass about gas prices. sure, they'll BITCH, but they won't stop driving. The people who will be hurt are delivery services, cabs, and poor people (such as myself) who have to drive a long distance to get to a job.

[orleans]

46. "jawbone"....."spigots".....my ass!

http://www.house.gov/georgemiller/press/rel33004.html

"During the 2000 Presidential election campaign, Gov. George W. Bush promised to take on the OPEC cartel on behalf of American consumers. Bush said:

“I think the president ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say, ‘We expect you to open your spigots.’ … The president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price.” "


(i'm not sure what i think of the gas prices--lately i'm leaning toward the hahaha suv-owners, hahaha people-who-voted-for-this-liar, hahaha we-told-you-not-to-vote-for-him)

[Jo March]

80. orleans, I think that we need to get that quote out there

I love that he thought he know WTF he was talking about then!

Around Charlotte, the ridership on the buses has gone up considerably. I see more people riding the bus now than I did.

Hubby and I are working out arrangements so that I can ride the bus as well. I have to drive to the bus stop but it's better than driving all the way in to work. I live in a rural area so there aren't bus stops close by my house.

[MeinaShaw]

47. One problem though...

If the high gas prices lead to economic chaos and recession, we will find ourselves in a more - not less - polluted world. The only way we can afford to work on cleaning the environment is if everyone has the money to do it.

Look at poor nations and how polluted they are. They pass on the cost to the enviornment because they don't have the economic base to clean it up.

There are other ways to get to a clean enviromement without the pain of high gasoline prices that actually could lead to the opposite of what you and I want to see. Getting there does not have to be painful. We just need to make the right moves.

Look how much more efficent the automobile is now and with the hybrids it is getting leaps better. If I agree with you on the price of gas going up, it is that it will spur more fuel efficient vehicles. I only disagree with you that prices can not rise to the point that they turn back the clock on environmental progress by leading to major economic down turn.

[eridani]

48. Love or hate makes no difference--they are here to stay

You've heard of Peak Oil, I presume? It can only get worse until we get busy on inventing the post-oil economy, if that is still possible.

[high density]

49. Huh? I guess we live in different worlds.

I, like most other people in America, enjoy the mobility that my car brings me. Paying $25 to fill it up is certainly not bringing me lower health or auto insurance costs. It's also not cleaning the environment because my driving habits haven't yet changed. Biking or public transportation aren't options since I'm in a non-urban area.

I'm all for finding alternative fuels and a much more tame foreign policy, but right now my vehicle runs on gasoline and it probably will for a few more decades. The "chaos" isn't good by any means.

[tavalon]

52. That's just it

get ready to get over enjoying the mobility. The game is up or will be soon. We created an unsustainable situation, never looking at the end point. Shoulda looked at the end point. We aren't there yet, but we soon will be.

The thing I'm going to miss the most isn't the mobility, it's the internet. I will really miss that. OTOH, I'm going to have to be on a major learning curve (already started) so maybe I'll be too busy to miss it.

What really pisses me off about the coming disaster is that the backwoods "Morans" will be the ones most likely to survive (though not thrive, but none of us will thrive).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. I really "enjoyed the mobility" when I lived in Japan

and went for a whole year without even riding in a private car. Between my feet, bicycles, trains, subways, buses, and herds of taxis cruising every arterial street, I had total mobility.

There not only drivers, but everyone has mobility: children, old people, the poor. It's great to see rather frail old people going out to lunch together on the train or bus or children going to school and activities without Mom or Dad having to chauffeur them. The poor can take a job anywhere in the metropolitan area.

A Japanese woman living in Portland married to an American said that when her family went to live in Japan for a year, the children, ages 11 and 13, didn't want to come back to the States, because in Japan they had mobility and freedom, and in America, they were dependent on getting rides from parents.

[OneTwentyoNine]

56. And Oil companies will happily embrace your statement with more increases.

Every time these Oil corporations go on a price fixing rampage the paper is quick to run articles on what "you the consumer" can do. What they should be doing is looking into gouging and price fixing.

This old BULLSHIT that major Oil companies are merely "passing on the rising costs" is BS corporation doublespeak. Profits don't DOUBLE in ONE QUARTER like they did for Conoco/Phillips if your merely passing on costs. Second quarter earnings for Conoco should be out in the next week or two,lets see how much "passing on costs" they did this quarter.

[Bridget Burke]

58. Those happy results are far, far away.

They sound good but people will suffer for a long time before any improvements are seen. Not the Escalade-driving scumbags, the people with long commutes.

Yes, everybody ought to live in a neatly planned community where they can walk or bike everywhere; but, where jobs come & go, where transit systems are poor or nonexistent, not everybody has that luxury. The people who make the decisions about transit are not the ones suffering, either. (Tom DeLay strongly opposed Federal transit funds for the Houston area--although his constituents suffer some of the worst commutes.)

And I doubt the insurance companies will pass on any savings to the consumers; they don't work that way.

I live in Houston & commute by bus & rail. More Houstonians COULD use transit, but most don't have a decent option. Transferring TWICE on the way to work is not acceptable....

[bunny planet]

91. Even the 'Escalade driving scumbags' will eventually suffer.

It's called a depression, and it will affect everyone except perhaps the obscenely rich.

[rfkrfk]

60. dh', have you ask your state legislators to raise gas taxes?

there is a 49 out of 50 chance that you state's
gas tax is too low.

[THUNDER HANDS]

62. yeah, and poor people suffer

I hope that makes you happy too.

I didn't find one thing on your list that made any sense at all. Here's let me go through them and tell you why:

1. If you can afford an SUV, you can afford the gas prices.
2. Citys are crumbling financially, they can't improve transportation.
3. See No. 2.
4. Yeah right, if you don't ride a bike now, you aren't going to.
5. Yeah, because employment is booming now, isn't it.
6. Why, are cars suddenly going to stop being driven?
7. Haha. Insurance dropping, I'd like to see that happen.
8. Oh yeah, they make more money and become less influential, makes sense.
9. Uh huh, you mean the entire Republican party?
10. Um, no.
11. Less roads, are they shrinking?
12. Like ANWR? Good thing that didn't pass. Oh, wait.
13. Yeah, because nothing calms me down like paying $3.00 for gas.

[dhinojosa]

89. Oh brother....

1. If you can afford an SUV, you can afford the gas prices.

Yeah, and I have never heard of the term "keeping up with the Joneses" or "people buy outside their means". I forgot that people, 100% of the time, spend responsibly.

:sarcasm:

[goodhue]

105. Gas prices hurting SUV sales

http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/12/Autos/gas_prices.reut/index.htm

Gas prices hurting SUV sales

Analysts say prolonged surge in gasoline prices is beginning to depress demand for gas guzzlers.
March 12, 2005: 11:26 AM EST

DETROIT (Reuters) - Rising U.S. gasoline prices are hurting sales of large sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks, according to some industry analysts, a trend that could stall a major engine of profits for Detroit's automakers.

[formernaderite]

63. Yes, yes, yes!!!

I drive a pick up for work and have always been frugal when it comes to routing my trips. Higher gas prices mean that Americans will have to self-enforce their wasteful habits. I think that is a better tool for learning than the government legislating frugality.

[Mutley]

64. all good points

however, my situation does not allow me to ride a bike. i do work close to home but my school is not close to home, nor are any members of my family - bike riding is not really an option for me. having to spend $25+ a week is no good at all for my budget, which is quite limited.

the point of this is that i am sure many many others are in the same situation where they can't just shrug their shoulders and say 'oh well, time to dust off the ole bicycle'.

all the other stuff would be great... IF it would happen... but at least in my city, i doubt it. they're more interested in trying to make slot machines legal.

[ArkDem]

66. Brilliant Analysis!!!

[raccoon]

68. If you were making a low salary

no effing way would you love high gas prices.

I'm in favor of conservation, riding bikes, taking public transportation, etc., where feasible.

But make no mistake, this hurts the poor, who have to watch every frickin dollar, a LOT more than anybody driving an SUV.

Another thing, many poor people, if they have a car, are driving an older, less fuel-efficient one. Trading it in for a hybrid isn't an option for them.

[SCDem]

78. Prices go up in other consumable goods too

Like fruits and veggies that have to be hauled to the grocery store and a whole lot of other goods.

[DinahMoeHum]

71. I've got stock in a few alternative-energy companies. . .

and right now, they're going up, up, up.

:evilgrin:

[bunny planet]

92. Which ones and how did you find and pick them. I've been interested for

quite awhile in investing in 'green' companies but am overwhelmed with the choice of which ones to lean towards. I do not have a lot of money to invest (and lose) so I want to make good choices.

[DinahMoeHum]

98. Give me a PM and I'll give you details.

:smoke:

[tinanator]

73. wrong on every count but one

I'm looking for a bicycle myself right now, but almost all the rest of your points are based in honest economics, and we are denied that luxury by our rulers.

[AzDar]

76. Whatever. Bottom line: higher gas/fuel/oil prices = higher prices on

EVERYTHING!!!

[American Tragedy]

81. Brilliant. And so very practical.

You're right, by God. We can get rid of the roads and jump straight into light rail, available within reasonable walking distance throughout the entire country, since every single person will no doubt just immediately stop going to work and school.

I always wondered why all of these people don't just ride their bikes in the expressway in rush hour for that thirty to forty mile drive anyway.

[dhinojosa]

87. Hey you forgot the sarcasm tag!

:sarcasm:

[American Tragedy]

110. I considered that, but decided a sarcasm tag would be too condescending

:D It's pretty evident in the post. Although there are many irony-immune folks surfing the internet, as some bizarre hatemail I've received labelling me a "Nazi" certainly seems to imply.

Don't get me wrong, dhinojosa, I sympathize in general with your points, especially as a lifelong city-dweller who hates driving, deliberately plans her life around avoiding it, and has witnessed far too many friends senselessly killed in automobiles by other careless drivers.

Nevertheless, most Americans do not live in massive metropolises with widely accessible public transportation, or in perfect little New Urbanist planned communities, where driving to work or school or grocery is genuinely optional. For most, it is essentially a necessity. It's almost like medical expenses - the demand curve doesn't decline the same way it would for most other products and services. Whether your epilepsy medication costs $3 or $300 per week, you have to have it, or else endure unbearable seizures. Not much choice. The added expenses will probably devastate poor people, but what can they really do about it?

[Rambis]

83. I would ride the train, if we had one

There was no money to be made in passenger trains in America. But I live 20 miles from work and it is rural Iowa so there is no chance this is going to happen ever. I like do like the fact the one dumbass in town with the hummer hasn't had it out in months (pun intended).

[ComerPerro]

90. Yeah, its great paying 2.30 a gallon. I love it.

I suppose its my own fault though, right? I mean, I am sure I could just take public transportation to my job. Oh, but wait. I work in another town twenty miles away, and have to drive through rural Kansas to get there. Hmm, that rules that out.

But, at least the oil companies are making a ton of money. And that is good for Bush and the GOP.

[mattclearing]

93. I agree wholeheartedly, but I am a city dweller.

Here in the District we have a fantastic subway system.

Surburbanites will hate it, though.

The suburban lifestyle depends on cheap gasoline to survive though...I used to drive 5 miles to get a Super Big Gulp.

Now I walk around the block.

I like that the same people that voted for Bush will now bitch and whine because his oil ploy predictably resulted in higher prices (anyone who watched Enron v. California could have predicted this).

:popcorn:

[jasmeel]

95. Alternative energy is cool! Even for the Freepers (maybe)!

[donsu]

96. agree with you dhinojosa

the sooner we start to heal the earth the better

[LimpingLib]

99. FYI the author is a free-market conservative in the George Will sense

All conservatives (not Green environmental conservationists) agree with his and most posters free-market solutions.

I feel almost alone when I propose that the government takes the initiative in making petroleum a thing of the past for all none plactic commodities.


Guess Im the only Green (in the environmental sense , not party wise) here.

Guess Im one of the only Anti-War posters here.

Guess Im the only humanitarian here just about.

Its all lonley.

[Castilleja]

100. I am glad that it feeds your need to exert control over ...

the behavior of others. Many of those things may be good things, but I don't know if you will see many of them happening for a good long while. But you never know!

[LimpingLib]

101. Its the Right that could institute martial law over oil shortages actually

The left gets a bad rap at times on energy and the environment and "controling peoples lives".

What many DUers, including the thread author, should be faultd for is taking up for our piss poor out of touch leaders that dont do shit about anything important.

WE have lost on Medicare, lost on the Credit Card bill, lost on ANWR (wake up!!) ,lost on "defence" spending increases, loosing BIG TIME on Social Security (Democratic whip Hoyar has a draconian "compromise" as his FIRST offer), yet all our leaders care about is the filibuster on a few judges.

The filibuster itself is unconstitutional to start with (on ANY legislation)yet we are b.s.ing to appeal to the young punk crowd.

[goodhue]

106. I agree wholeheartedly.

Although motorists don't conserve much in the short run when fuel prices go up, the experience of the 1970s and early 1980s demonstrate that motorists will turn to conservation with a vengeance if fuel prices stay high over a long period of time.

[dhinojosa]

108. I was just talking about the 1970s with a friend of mine....

not directly related to what you were saying, but I was mentioning that if Carter had had a 2nd term we would be using alternative fuels about now.

P.S. I like that photo. Very nice.

[Spinoza]

107. Great Post.

The rich will again enjoy uncongested highways and grand open vistas without choking on gas fumes. They (the rich that is) have been suffering far too long having to share the highways with the hoi-polloi. Fuck the poor.

[dhinojosa]

109. ooooooookay.

I don't know if that was sarcasm (hard to tell with just text), or if you are rich and really dig the idea of having the road to yourself, but It's going to be tough time for awhile for everyone.

[Spinoza]

111. It was sarcasm

[Ms_Mary]

113. And the working poor who live in rural areas and lack the capital

to move or the education to be upwardluy mobile are stuck choosing between groceries and the gas to get to work. Yeah, fantastic,

[Jimbo S]

114. High gas prices lead to inflation, which leads to

the end of the Republican dynasty. Sick as it sounds, but want to win the South again? Take the focus off social issues and place it on economic issues. People won't worry as much about guns and gay marriage if they're too worried if the next paycheck will cover the bills.

This is the 70s all over again. High oil prices led to Carter's downfall, and it will happen to Bush.

[dhinojosa]

116. kick ass observation....n/t

[cquik18]

124. It'd be nice, but...

Bush, with his whole plain-spoken, pseudo good-ol' boy from Texas- act has won over the hearts and minds of the working poor redneck Bubbas and Tammys who are watching their jobs go overseas, their health benefits get smaller and smaller, and gas for their pickup trucks and Iroc Camaros (I should know, I own a muscle car myself!)get more and more expensive. So they'll keep on doing what many blacks who still even BOTHER to vote do during election time-keep voting AGAINST their own best interest for the candidate who talks the best game. As a black man, I see it all the time.

How can Bush be the rich man's friend and YOUR friend too?

[ticapnews]

119. I sent my sister the Rolling Stone article referenced in an earlier post..

And she thought Peak Oil and The Long Emergency were great because it would rid the world of strip malls and Wal-Marts and also decrease traffic (and therefore pollution).

She lives on an island a mile from a major city where she and her husband both work. He can telecommute, she can't. I asked her if she plans on swimming to work when they stop running the ferry.

My job is 28.9 miles from my house. I have been able to shift my schedule so I can work only four days a week, but no matter what the price of gas is I still have to drive 231.2 miles each week - and that's just to get to work. Last summer I bought a 2003 Ford Focus which gets around 28 mpg. That means every week I HAVE to consume at least 8.25 gallons of gas. The only variable is the price. Last Friday that price was $2.139...by Sunday it was $2.239. Next week it'll be close to $2.30. It doesn't matter what the price is, I still have to drive the same number of miles and consume the same amount of gas. I have looked for work closer to home - I used to work within walking distance but that job is now in Calcutta - but there are simply no longer any jobs here that match my skills. I have considered moving closer to my job but that is not feasible either. I will simply have to keep paying a higher and higher percentage of my income until A) The price becomes so prohibitive it is more cost efficient to quit, leave my car on the side of the road (since no one will want to buy it) and get a minimum wage (or less) job close to home or B) The situation gets so dire so quickly that the civilian population is cut off from the gas supply.

So I am not happy to see gas prices rise. When I bought gas last week there were five SUVs at the pump and those five SUVs are going to be there again next week.

Things are going to change dramatically. Those who forsee and can prepare for the coming catastrophe will have a chance to make it through. Those who won't (because they wear blinders or who think everything will be just dandy) or can't (because they can't afford to make the necessary preparations) are the ones who are going to be quite literally killed by this.

Quite frankly, I don't expect to make it.

[jen4clark]

120. Does anyone have info

I'm curious to know if anyone has or knows of documentation of definite, deliberate actions throughout the last 30 years or so that have been taken by our corporate controlled government to keep alternative energy innovations and production from happening?

It's hard to fathom how much COULD have been done by now in decreasing our oil dependence if corporate money wasn't controlling government policies and agendas. As long as they can make gazillions doing things the same, they will not allow for our systems to change.

If you live in a rural area and can get "off the grid" that seems like the best thing to do.

[martymar64]

123. It'll get MUCH worse before these benfits kick in

Alot of people are going to die when the effects of the oil depletion are seen. Things will eventually reach a state of equilibrium, like after the Black Death in the 14th Century.