Do you support the deportation of all ILLEGAL aliens?

[nickshepDEM]

Poll question: Do you support the deportation of all ILLEGAL aliens?

I believe that illegal immigration will be a huge issue in 2008 and I would like to see how you guys/gals feel about the topic? Also, how would you like to see the Democrats approach this issue?

Poll result (193 votes)
Yes	(134 votes, 69%)	Vote
No	(51 votes, 26%)	Vote
Maybe	(8 votes, 4%)	Vote

[knight_of_the_star]

1. Very simple

They are not here legally. Show me a country that has the means to enforce the law in an incorrupt fashion that is so lax about illegal immigration as we are.

[cestpaspossible]

10. Illegal aliens by definition means those who are here illegally.

If you want to make the argument that there exists no person within the borders of the United States who is not a citizen of the United States and is here illegally, you may try to do so.

However, whatever the second sentence in your comment was meant to mean (I'm not sure, although I have some guesses), it is not a coherent argument in support of that contention.

[knight_of_the_star]

22. I'll explain then

Show me ANY industrialized nation that has a largely honest means of enforcing the law (based on that standard Mexico does NOT count) that tolerates illegal immigrants as much as we do.

As for your first point, I live in Southern California. I can find Mexican workers who are here illegaly with minimal effort at best. If you are trying to say there aren't any illegals and there isn't a problem with them, I would like you to show me proof for that statement.

[cestpaspossible]

30. umm

Show me ANY industrialized nation that has a largely honest means of enforcing the law (based on that standard Mexico does NOT count) that tolerates illegal immigrants as much as we do.

Why? That's totally irrelevant to the question posed in the poll.

As for your first point, I live in Southern California. I can find Mexican workers who are here illegaly with minimal effort at best. If you are trying to say there aren't any illegals and there isn't a problem with them, I would like you to show me proof for that statement.

No, I wasn't trying to say anything, I was asking you to explain what you were saying. I won't ask again.

[knight_of_the_star]

36. No it isn't

It is relevant to the poll. Why shouldn't we enforce our laws regarding immigration?

[cestpaspossible]

37. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Why shouldn't we enforce our laws regarding immigration?

I don't understand why you are asking me that question. You seem to think I have some idea what you are talking about. I don't. I have absolutely no clue what your views are on the subject of immigration.

And you obviously have no clue what my views are on the subject of immigration, since I haven't stated my views.

[knight_of_the_star]

38. I'll spell it out for you then

In most countries if you are in said country ILLEGALLY, you get imprisoned until you can be deported. Here we have illegals working in low-wage jobs that don't even get touched by the police and laws giving social welfare for people here illegally.

[cestpaspossible]

39. That's a simple statement of fact.

[Mass]

69. Quite a few in fact

as long as it suits to its economic interests. I would support deportation in most cases, but I would want a hearing before in order to avoid the most outragous cases and i would also see a real effort to break the problem where it lays, with people profiteering from illegal aliens rather than with people who mostly just try to feed their families.

[Nikki Stone 1]

2. I only support the deportation of those with criminal records; what column

do I vote in?

[nickshepDEM]

4. Maybe?

[Mass]

70. It is already the case

Even legal aliens with strong ties to the communities get deported when the commit a felony. When the measure was voted, it was even made retroactive, so people who had committed a felony twenty years before and had now paid for their crime and live a perfectly lawful law were deported as well.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

3. I don't support the deportation of current illegal immigrants.

Strangely enough,I actually agree with Bill O'Reilly's solution which is to give amnesty to illegal immigrants that are currently here and then to completely shut the border with much stronger border control. This plan would also include a much more efficient guest worker program.

[Clarkie1]

7. How about offering a role in the guest-worker program instead? n/t

[madeline_con]

66. Guest worker...

is just another way of saying 'maid', 'fruit picker' or 'sweatshop worker'. They should go, even if they're here mopping some rich bitch's kitchen.

[Mass]

71. I agree with you.

as long as there is a way to pass from guest worker to permanent resident if the person is employed for more than a certain period. If not, we are just creating cheap labour.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

75. Yes, I agree with that. (n/t)

[Clarkie1]

5. And a functional guest-worker program, too.

This immigration system today is completely dysfunctional.

[htuttle]

6. I've never really worried too much about it either way

When I was younger, I picked strawberries for a living during the summers, like many of the young people in my immediate area.

I hated it. The hours were long, bent over picking, picking, picking for really low pay. I don't want to pick strawberries for a living. It would be fine for someone else to do that. (Oh, and potato farms, too. Don't want to have to do that again, either).

What else do illegal immigrants do for a living? Janitorial work? I suppose janitorial work wasn't so bad -- I kind of liked it, actually. It was just a temporary stop for me -- I have a much better job now. Damn hard to raise a family on a janitor's paycheck (without a union).

No, there's just not many jobs I see myself competing with an illegal immigrant for. If I didn't have the job I have now, I'd be more worried about competing with workers overseas.

[steelyboo]

11. No offense, but maybe you should care because of the American janitor and

picker that NEED that job and will loose it to the immigrant. We only THINK Americans are too good for jobs like that, but believe me, some people just need work to live. They could truly give a shit less how "fulfilling" it is, as long as it puts food on the table. We have to start standing up for the working poor again, because sadly, they will likely going to be our fastest growing demographic.

[htuttle]

15. Show me an American who wants to work for $15 per day

The problem is that you can't support yourself on what those jobs pay anymore. Unless you are living with 12 other people, there's no rent that you can afford anywhere.

I'm no rich guy who forgot where he came from. I've been working in the taxi business for the last 17 years (which is the 'much better job' I was speaking of), and it doesn't get any more real than that. I know all about working to live.

However, I'm not about to take a job that I can't support myself on. If I do, I won't have time to look for a job that I CAN support myself on. And yes, I realize that one quickly becomes homeless without income in this country -- it happened to me in 1988-89.

But if you can't afford rent, you're going to end up homeless either way, whether or not you are spending 11 hours per day picking strawberries.

[steelyboo]

16. But you need to follow the logic out. If Jr Dickhead gets his way, he will

have open borders damn near with Mexico (like we don't already). When you have enough illegals over here, you eventually will fill all the the little bullshit jobs, and they will move on to other fields.

For example, I live in Louisville, KY. We have UPS largest air hub here. The nature of their business translates to large amounts of part-time jobs. The best part about the jobs is that UPS gives you GOOD medical insurance with that part-time job, and allows you to cover dependents on the cheap. The jobs pay about $8-9 (fairly decent in the area) and give you about 20 hours a week.

A lot of working poor (college kids, kids starting out, older retired folks, moms who need to help dad but have a few kids so a full time is out,etc.) work these jobs. They come to depend on jobs like these. I know, I've been employed there twice.

Last time I was there, the most amazing thing was the incredibly large amount of Mexicans that they had started employing. I've lived here my whole life, and trust me, Louisville had practically no Hispanic population until about say 7 years ago. But now, since the tobacco jobs in the state have dried up and been taken, the illegals have to look elsewhere for work. Sadly, Whore-porat America doesn't give a fuck who does the work, and realizes that the illegal will likely be a whole lot more "grateful" (i.e. we can get rid of the teamsters if we can get more of these gullible desperate people in here).

What Im getting at is that eventually, they (illegal immigrants) will have to move up the job food chain, so we need to kill it now.

[htuttle]

21. The only way to stop that is by going after employers

If employers can't pay substandard wages to illegal immigrants, they gain nothing by hiring them. Given the added risk, they wouldn't do it.

If UPS is hiring illegal immigrants, they are doing it to shave money off their wages to keep more for themselves. It would be a HELL of a lot easier in that case to go after UPS than to spend all your energy trying to keep all the illegal immigrants out.

If a big corporation like UPS is hiring illegal immigrants, you can bet they aren't doing it without some wink and a nod from the relevant Executive Branch enforcement agencies. That is the root of the problem right now -- not that the fence in Arizona isn't tall enough.

If some corporations are allowed to pay some people sub-subsistence wages, it hardly matters whether those people are citizens or not. It has the same effect on the job market.

[katsy]

20. So it's okay

with you if corporations are allowed to pay $15 a day?

Funny... I don't think they should get away with that whether they employ immigrants or citizens.

And who picks up the tab for social welfare for these illegal immigrants? The taxpayers.

Left with a choice between a hidden tax (welfare for illegals) or higher prices for fruits and produce that pays a living wage to citizens... I'll pay more for the produce.

A personal experience: I had a choice to stock an item in my shop that was made by a company employing American women and providing them with a living wage (including daycare & benes) or a comparable product made in the sweatshops of china.

Which product cost more? Chinese manufactured. Think they allowed the profits to trickle down to the sweatshops?

Higher quality & durability? After 4 years exp. & feedback, the one made in the USA.

It's not okay to allow corporations to employ slaves in the U.S.

This BS about no American would want to do those jobs is a smoke sceen allowing criminals to employ slave labor.

[htuttle]

25. No, it's not okay

But as I said in the reply to the reply above, the root of the problem is that corporations ARE allowed to pay $15 per day. The problem isn't the people drawn to work at those jobs, and in the end, I don't think it matters whether they are citizens or not.

Why the hell is the agricultural minimum wage so low, for instance?

I don't think we disagree on the fact that there is a problem with corporations paying sub-living wages in this country. I just think we should concentrate on the corporations' crimes, not the illegal immigrants.

I think that if we make it unprofitable to hire illegal immigrants, they won't take any jobs. However, if we don't deal with corporations paying wages that nobody can live on, we'll just end up with citizens not living on their pay (and many aren't now), instead of illegal immigrants.

[katsy]

29. You may be right on that.

No American company should be allowed to pay sub-living wages and pass the cost of welfare to taxpayers.

[incapsulated]

55. But they aren't just "picking strawberries"

There is an image of illegal aliens only being migrant farm labor that is based in the past.

They do all sorts of work, including the kind of construction and odd jobs that a lot of unemployed Americans used to do.

If they were being paid so little, and life was so horrible for them here, then why are they flooding across the border to get here? No matter what the situation, it's obviously better than south of the border, especially when you factor in schooling and health care.

[sharonking21]

117. Think about the situation in Austin Texas

I agree that they do much more than pick strawberries. However those who take non-farm jobs contribute more than they are given credit for.

Undocumented workers here end up paying for school taxes through their rent. Not sure how school is financed in your area, but here it is financed mainly through property taxes levied by school districts. These property taxes are a "pass-thru" item; when property taxes go up, so does your rent. I rent and each year I look at the new appraisals and rates on the condo I rent on the Travis County Appraisal website, just to get an idea of what is coming down the pike. People often make the mistake of thinking that renters don't pay property taxes. Untrue.

Also, undocumented workers here pay a state and municipal sales tax of around 8.5 cents on each dollar of purchases, just like everyone else. But just like the poor who are citizens, this flat tax takes a larger proportional bite out of their income than it does from others.

Texas has a rather regressive tax system--no income tax, just sales taxes and fees/fines--and the fee/fine system of generation of revenue is becoming much more pronounced, both at the state, county, and municipal levels. Most people think of this as innocuous, but it isn't. To some degree, undocumented workers here pay these fines and fees.

For example, seems fair, right, that everyone should pay the same to get into state parks, etc. (Used to be free, of course). But it goes much further than this. You have always had to pay to have an automobile title transferred here and you are legally obligated to have it officially transferred. They just raised that fee from about $40 to around $65. That is a lot for anyone who doesn't have much money.

If you are poor or even out of work, you find these kinds of things facing you at every turn. My son lost his job back during the dot.com bust. He had no money whatsoever. He got a temporary job driving a limousine. However, once he got the job, he found he had to pay out about $200 to get a limousine driver's license. The family scratched together the money, but what if you do not have these family resources?

Most politicians here are unwilling to say they want to, Oh-My-God, raise taxes, so, here anyway, they are quietly expanding the fee and fine system to pay for state and local services while touting how "they didn't raise taxes." I have actually checked the proportion of Texas state revenue raised this way and between 1982 and 2003, and the percentage raised this way has doubled. It is an egregious con game.

Further, it is particularly bruising to anyone who doesn't have much money. Municipalities run up their revenues by handing out tickets for this and that. Okay, if you are middle class or well-off, no problem, you can just pay the damn fine. It is a mere annoyance. However, if you are poor, as are the undocumented workers, you are much much more likely to not have the money to pay the original fine on time. Then it really gets nasty--you have fines on top of fines on top of fines. Most of the people on the arrest warrant website for the City of Austin are on that list because they haven't paid (or haven't been able to pay) these fines upon fines.

Another way here in Texas that undocumented workers end up contributing to the coffers of the state is through the state-run lotteries. When it was a new thing, even middle-class people played the lotteries a bit, but that did not last. Mostly those who buy lottery tickets now are the working poor, hoping for a big dream payoff. That includes undocumented workers. Yes, they would have to have a citizen claim the money, but hope springs eternal when you are really down and out.

If undocumented workers want cigarettes, they pay the state cigarette tax. If they want alcohol, they pay the state alcohol tax. If they want gasoline they pay the state motor fuels tax.

What I am trying to illustrate is that, while we may end up paying the discrepancy between what they contribute to revenues and take out of services, the discrepancy has often been grossly exaggerated, as is the extent to which they all want to come up here, make money, and send it all back to Mexico.

Most of the first generation of undocumented workers want to stay here, and the second generation ends up paying more of their way than the previous generation, and by the time the third generation rolls around, they pay their own way.

[Mass]

72. Then strike where you need to strike

with the people who hire illegal aliens, not with the aliens themselves, who are also working poors, simply more exploited because of their precarious situation. Take radical measures against them and you will see the number of illegal aliens fall. Of course, you have to be ready to go after companies and corporations for that in a much stronger way than what is done now.

[FormerDittoHead]

8. Giving illegals amnesty is a slap in the face to those who obeyed the law

Perhaps there should be something short of deportation, but too many people paid their dues, obeyed the law and became citizens LEGALLY just to turn around and give illegals the same status.

As a political angle, I think it's an excellent position for us to take because many conservatives WANT to close the borders but their "cheap-labor party" is hooked on the drug of below minimum wage earners for their large contributors.

Furthermore, I think we should have MUCH stiffer fines for employers who knowingly employ them...

[jen4clark]

13. I'm with you on this one n/t

[Selatius]

17. I agree; breaking the law should NOT BE REWARDED

I do agree with O'Reilly here. The border must be shut down for a while until we can get in far, far superior enforcement mechanisms. I also support empowering the authorities to track down and deport illegal aliens all over the country, not just in border areas. It does not make sense to hamstring local authorities in dealing with illegal aliens.

I support coming down like a ton of bricks on each and every employer in the country who dares to hire illegal aliens. They are helping to destroy America, and they're hurting American workers by applying downward pressure on worker wages in general by doing so.

[MollyStark]

19. Who will pick the crops?

Americans wont do it.

[Selatius]

27. Do you propose a guest worker program?

Seriously, what is your answer to this? What do you propose? You need workers to pick those crops; this is true, but what about helping farmers by offering them grants to buy machinery to do the same tasks so that the workload will be reduced?

[MollyStark]

86. Machines would put people out of work

Why use machines when you can provide income for poor people in Mexico?

[wuushew]

33. The history channel ran a program on agricultural harvesters

a few weeks back.

Cotton which prior to the 1940's was one of the most labor intensive crops benefited greatly a combine that could remove seeds and bale in one operation. Recent developements involved in agriculte include machines for harvesting more delicate crops like lettuce and various citris fruits.

The technology to completely mechanize commerical agriculture exists today, but the large capital outlays are not attractive when human labor exists in such large and inexhaustible amounts. An injured migrant is easier to replace than a combine in need of repair.

It is a myth to think that food prices will radically rise because of labor pressures. Unattractive work will become largely mechanized. Even if food prices rise slightly the reduction of social services expenses should more than offset any increase.

[Jack_DeLeon]

43. Yes lets fire all the workers and rely completely and totally on machines

so that way when all the oil and energy runs out we can all starve to death.

[Selatius]

44. Straw man argument; that's totally uncalled for

I don't see him advocating this at all, and it's disingenuous. At best, he advocates mechanizing jobs that people claim no American would take, not every job in the entire sector.

[Jack_DeLeon]

73. So if...

some people claim no "American" would take that job then it shouldnt exist as a job for anyone to take?

You know just because we can make it so that humans arent needed that doesnt mean that we should.

Yeah so its cheaper to use people than machines, I dont see anything necessarily wrong with that.

[Selatius]

82. Not necessarily, you're jumping to conclusions with what I say

If you don't want to replace jobs where you have to pick in the fields, that's fine, but conversely, you should not tolerate those jobs going to illegal immigrants either. That's the wrong answer no matter how you slice it. Unless you seriously advocate a guest worker program like what Bush touts, the only real alternative is far, far stronger enforcement of immigration laws coupled with stimulating wage increases in the sector and stronger enforcement of labor standards in general.

You also have to understand that as technology advances, new sectors are created that need workers. The technology sector is a prime example. 100 years ago, it did not even exist. We, for example, no longer need as many people farming and growing crops because technology has boosted productivity to the point where you no longer need as many farmers to grow the same amount of food. As a result, many farmers over the decades moved into other areas of the economy such as services, manufacturing, technology, etc.

However, this would not be so easy if it weren't for funding of job training programs, colleges, small business loans, Pell Grants, and student loans to help train workers. If you'll note, the corporatists want to gut almost all of these so that the money would flow into their private coffers instead of benefitting everyone.

Does this mean I favor mechanizing as many jobs in as short a time as possible and laying off everyone? Of course not. That would be unethical as well as immoral. A fine balance must be achieved that takes into account the workers as well as advances in technology. It cannot simply be one or the other.

[MollyStark]

88. Why shouldn't I favor jobs going to illegal immigrants?

I am serious. I want to know why the furor over illegal immigrants eating and feeding their kids.

[Leilani]

96. Why shouldn't you favor jobs going to illegal immigrants?

Maybe, just maybe, you might be concerned about the American workers who are losing their jobs to illegal aliens, & who also want to feed their kids.

We have a group of Americans who are underemployed, underpaid, & permanently unemployed, & this group is growing. Our economy is not growing quickly enough to employ all Americans & millions & millions of third world workers.

Our country owes it's own citizens jobs, before they outsource, bring in visa workers, or hire illegals.

[MollyStark]

121. None of those people are going to go pick tomatoes for 8 hours

I am very sympathetic to people being out of work, but the illegal immigrants are not the cause of that problem. Outsorcing is at fault.

[Selatius]

97. For one thing, it is unfair to the millions who immigrated LEGALLY

Why should they be rewarded by cutting in line and breaking the law? If they want to come and live in the US, then I am all for them coming, but they should do it like many others have, including my parents. They came to this country legally.

I favor immigration, just not the illegal kind. It's unfair to Americans who are citizens, and it's unfair to people who are trying to immigrate legally.

[MollyStark]

122. Your parents are probably not saints

If their kids were starving, they would likely have come here illegally if they could have walked across the border. Mine would have done the same.

Why do we get all self Rightious about our immigrant ancestors coming here legally when the main reason for that was that none of our ancestors could swim the atlantic ocean?

[Selatius]

131. There's a process to getting in the country

If you want to enjoy the privileges afforded with citizenship, then you ought to apply legally. Why should Mexicans be treated differently than the Vietnamese or the Irish or the Germans or any other who have come in the past? I favor a holistic approach that not only punishes corporations and businesses that hire illegal aliens but also seeks to enforce immigration laws, and if there is such a high demand for citizenship, I'd be willing to seriously contemplate making application for citizenship faster, but we've got to seriously examine border enforcement in this country. It is a massive security liability, especially in light of what is happening in the Middle East today.

[MollyStark]

133. I see

Terrorists might be sneaking across the border.

These people are responsible for the fact that we are not paying 10 dollars for a tomato. The only difference between them and a lot of our ancestors is that they can walk across the border, so they don't have to wait for the formalities.
Your affection for proper procedure is touching but it really doesn't address the broader problems. Americans are not willing to pay more for what they want and these people we are talking about are just as victim to this reality as any of the rest of us.

[Selatius]

135. This is why we have to take a multi-tiered approach

I know that simply tossing folks back across the border won't address the problem, which is why I advocate on top of everything else busting up corporations and smaller companies that willingly hire illegal aliens, such as Wal-Mart. Then we have to beef up security--and I mean a several fold increase--and add more folks to better protect not only our border but also our ports.

Everything else aside, I was wondering what your opinion is on illegal immigrants who have already entered? Do you favor some sort of amnesty or guest worker program something like Bush and a few others in Congress advocate? How would you approach this if given the opportunity?

[MollyStark]

87. Great, let's put more people out of work

Why would you want to do that?

[borg5575]

34. If it pays enough they will.

Hell, if it paid enough even I would drag my fat lazy butt out there and do it.

Plus, it won't be inflationary. Farm labor costs are a minuscule part of food prices, and if farm labor wages were raised, which I think we can all agree would be a good thing, then food prices would go up very little if at all. It's increasing energy prices that are driving up food prices, not labor costs.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Selatius]

98. Your attacks are not welcome.

[MollyStark]

123. I was only repeating his own words about his butt

I am not the one who labled it fat and lazy.

[me b zola]

45. My hubbie picked crops as a young man

...and said he made a fairly decent wage, if you worked hard. I live in Portland and have friends that are migrant workers who work for a construction co, and that company won't hire Americans because they do not want to pay into SS, give benifits, nor have any responsibility for accidents on the job.

We should be asking ourselves why shrubya wants the guest worker program. I believe it is another step in erasing the middle class. Those who are not wealthy will be fighting over every minimum wage job & will be damned glad to have it. Benifits? The American worker is already losing their benifits, and soon they will be a memory.

[doc03]

46. What ever happened to the Republican philosophy

of let the market place determine the wages for those jobs. I guess it doesn't apply to working people only CEO's from Enron and such.

[sharonking21]

92. I favor a two-week

rotating seasonal period of national service for each and every robust and healthy corporate executive, bureaucrat, business-owner, oilman, large land owner, attorney, physician, etc. so they can go out into the fields and get the crops in. :> ..

Seriously, I know that the issue goes far beyond the crops. But just limiting the issue to crops for the sake of argument, I have some personal experience in this area. Long ago, back when the dinosaurs roamed, my uncle was a small tenant cotton farmer, struggling to survive and giving most of the profits (when they occurred) to the landowner. His acreage was near Brownsville Texas. I used to visit as a child. He felt compelled to use undocumented workers because he couldn't find enough legal workers to get the crop in, nor could he afford them.

I was there once when the border patrol raided the place. They shot one escaping teenage worker in the leg. My aunt and uncle were in tears. They tried to get the young man medical care, but he was taken off instead in a paddy wagon.

I was only about eight years old and it made a big impression on me. I volunteered, soft city child that I was, to go out and try to help get the cotton in. I lasted about 3/4ths of a day. This is backbreaking work. The undocumented workers were not the big villains, nor was my struggling farmer uncle. He eventually lost the farm.

I know, I know, this was, um, ah, well about 54 years ago and things have changed. Nevertheless, the entire system as a whole has not changed all that much. And all people, the undocumented workers, my uncle etc were struggling humans who deserve some compassion.

[katsy]

23. Come down on those corporations

like a ton of bricks and then make them pay for a first class ticket so the illegal can go home in comfort. I'm all for that.

[Mass]

74. I agree totally with you.

"Furthermore, I think we should have MUCH stiffer fines for employers who knowingly employ them..."

[Nikki Stone 1]

9. I'm worried: Clear Channel has been pushing this hard recently

The local Clear Channel stations in So Cal have been pushing this agenda, even ignoring things like Social Security. There is a fence at the border being planned. I wonder if this is a created issue.

[John_H]

31. Good. And the dems should screamlouder than the rethugs about it.

The GOP WANTS dems to make the mistake of making this a race issue. they love race issues. They especially love race issues that make dems lose votes they need while the rethugs "lose" votes they'd never get anyway.

We should propose tougher laws than they do, especially since this is a natural dem/labor issue.

[norml]

12. I support fining employers for every illegal worker, for every day

they employ them. There's no need for deportations. If employers decide it's not in their interest to hire them, they will go home on their own.

[sandnsea]

14. No, some have lives here

I support a legitimate legalization process that respects the contributions many illegals have made for years. Immigration reform should be geared towards citizenship always.

And in absolutely NO WAY do I support a Bush-type guest worker program. It's based on Saipan's immigration policy that had manufacturers bringing in Chinese slave labor.

[sharonking21]

48. I agree, mostly

I hate to see us Democrats becoming rank nativists. This is much like a return to the times in the 19th and early 20th centuries, when Americans, often working-class or lower middle class Democrats, feared for their jobs and ended up blaming it wrathfully on either immigrants or, in the north, on the influx (or the fear of the influx) of black labor from the South. All kinds of evils were perpetrated under this rubric. And the Democrats taking fear of job loss out on those "below" them, played into the hands of the more cold and calculating Republican nativists and the industrialists, who played off one against the other.

I have lived in Texas most of my 62-year life. That means I have come into contact with lots of people who either were undocumented or were the children of undocumented workers. Have some compassion, for God's sake. Undocumented workers do establish lives here, they have families, and they do contribute much more than they are currently being given credit for.

If you want to spend tons of money closing off the border with Mexico, well, go right ahead and try. Hint--to do it, you will need more money on an ever-continuing basis than we now are shoving down Bush's rat hole in Iraq and waaay more money than would be justified by any difference between the amount undocumented workers contribute to the public pot in things like sales taxes and fees and the amount of revenue expended on public services for them.

Go after those at the top who profit from the misery of these people. Go after those who do not support a hike in the minimum wage. Go after those who are shipping jobs overseas. Close the borders. But don't take it out on the undocumented workers and their families who are already here--give them a chance to become citizens.

Most of you are sounding a bit like Lou Dobbs, the quintessential current Republican nativist on CNN. You are being "played."

[Mass]

78. Excellent post.

I agree with you totally, but you expressed this much better I ever could.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. How about we deport the employers that use them?

Let them live in Mexico for awhile, no work, no food, no education, no hope.

[borg5575]

35. No, send them to jail.

Employers who hire illegals need to go to jail, not be deported.

[solinvictus]

24. Yep...

We need to pull a "Rawhide" on them: "Head 'em up and move 'em out!". Seriously, if we fined the fuck out of employers to the tune of 10% of the net value of their companies, the problem would handle itself.

[MrSlayer]

26. Certainly.

Get in legally or get the hell out. I would like to see the Democrats tackle this from a Buchanan veiwpoint. Let's take one of their issues away since they don't seem to want it anymore.

[Stand and Fight]

28. Absolutely.

Go Gov. Mark Warner for the steps that he has taken to discourage illegal aliens in Virginia. Our tax dollars support them and they are here illegally -- if they come through legal means, I welcome them with open arms. However, if they are here through illegal means, I say deport them -- I don't care where they come from or what their problem is -- we do have amnesty laws if it is that bad for them in their home countries.

[libodem]

32. Anyplace in Idaho

is pretty close to farm country. We got potato projects when I was about 10. In the spring and fall the migrant children went to school with us. I don't know if they were illegal because they could enroll in school. They lived in labor camps. Farmers depend on the laborers. The farmers are, often big rich Mormons, Republican, most of them. They are certainly doing something illegal by hiring them. Yet, they have good standing in their churches and communities. I think if they fenced the border the Republican farmers would be hurting. I'm sure there must be a lobby. It also comes up in western states the drivers license issue. These illegals have to drive harvest trucks and get to town to buy food. The authorities pick up the unlucky ones and send 'em back. I feel sorry for them. The damn farmers don't have to pay taxes, insurance, Workman's comp, nothing! An LPN who worked at Armor Meat Packing, told me an illegal got his arm in some machinery and instead of taking him to a hospital they shipped him back to Mexico.

[Capn Sunshine]

108. You just described the crux of the problem

"big rich Republican Farmers" -- and Corporate Agribusiness, guys like Tyson, Con Agra, depend on that cheap illegal labor to subsidize their costs.

Its the profit drive of the corporation, that fundamental neocon tenet of life, that creates the job and encourages the illegal immigration.

Then there's YOU FOLKS, who would freak out if you had to pay 28-44% more for your food. Because that's where it's at. Don't expect the corporation to change their profit structure. They just pass it on to you and me.

So that's what is involved. Drain on our resources, or $ 11.50 for a chicken,8.50 for a 2lb sack of carrots and $8.00 for a Big Mac.

America, ain't it grand?

[MollyStark]

125. Would you pay twice as much for your potatoes?

I know I would. But most people would not and so we need the system to work just as it does. When do you think people will understand the connection?

[formernaderite]

40. sorry, I just don't believe there are illegal humans....

...says so on the back of my truck too.

[Jack_DeLeon]

41. I support the deportation of some illegal aliens...

[Cobalt Violet]

42. I'm not sure if corporate America will allow this to be a huge issue.

[goodhue]

47. No way

Deporting "illegal" immigrants is a waste of goverment resources and is not sustainable as they arrive faster than they can be deported. They are human beings who have come here to work and even if their status is not by the book they have rights--human rights, workers rights, civil rights. In any event, it will not be a much of an issue.

[w4rma]

49. They're illegal, aren't they? To allow them to stay would also be illegal.

I think the law should be followed.

[Radical Activist]

51. The people's representatives write the laws.

Its only illegal as long as we want it to be illegal. The law can be changed at any time. Saying we must follow the laws as they are currently written, like we have no choice in the matter, is a weak cop-out.

[w4rma]

130. You are advicating making illegal immigrants legal? I don't think that's

what you said above about giving services to *illegal* immigrants. You said nothing about legalizing these folks, just about giving the illegals services.

[Radical Activist]

50. My ancestors were immigrants and I know how I would want them treated.

There were no limits on immigrants from Western Europe when my ancestors immigrated. I wouldn't care if it was the same way today.
Anyone whose ancestors immigrated here who feel differently are hypocrites who have forgotten their past.

[sharonking21]

52. My, my . .

The sun, the moon, and the stars must be in a perfect and rare alignment--I finally agree with Radical Activist on something, especially the part about us forgetting our past. See my comments above.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Radical Activist]

54. uh oh

you better get vaccinated.

[sharonking21]

91. Perhaps we need the men

and women from CDC in yellow space suits?

[jfenway]

57. I can't believe I am agreeing with RA either....

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores; send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me; I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

I really understand reasons for both sides of the argument. I do, however, ask every one to consider that each and every one of these "illegal aliens" is also a human being.

J.

[incapsulated]

76. Your ancestors...

Came here to become legal citizens of the United States. Legal, taxpaying citizens. They intended to stay and have their children live and work here. Not to send the money back home and then leave. Not to take advantage of schooling and healthcare that other hardworking people had to pay for.

This country is shrinking in space and resources as it is. This isn't the 19th century, we can't absorb that kind of influx in population. We can't have unlimited immigration anymore, that is fantasy, unless you like the idea of half of the entire third world moving here tomorrow. Which is what would happen. Our economy would collapse.

[jfenway]

79. Ah, the glass is full argument...

What would General Clark say? I am really curious.

J.

[incapsulated]

80. Not only the "glass is full"...

But you also ought to pay for a drink out of that glass, like everyone else, and not drain the glass, leaving less for those who actually own it. Or give a pass to those that are really benefiting from the poaching: those who are handing out the glass of water illegally for their own profit.

I'm not a spokeswoman for Clark. I'm speaking for myself, as I do when not referring to him, specifically.

I do know Clark has spoken often about the rise of nations such as China and India, and the economic problems caused by outsourcing to those countries, assisting in creating our own competition while attacking our own workforce, is posing. And about the danger to the country, from a security standpoint, that having nearly open borders is causing. As to the specific issue of illegal immigration from the south, I would have to get back to you, heh.

[jfenway]

83. I was genuinely curious about Clark's position on the matter..

I do know that the last time he spoke of it, he got a lot of flack over it (I happened to agree with him, by the way, that we must increase our intellectual property competitiveness instead of focusing on cheap labor).

You know, I really do feel that the illegals are only convenient and unfair targets, IMHO. Why not blame it on the consumers that demand cheap services/labors? At the end, I think we can only look at ourselves in the mirror and realize that WE created these situations. If we truly do not wish for there to be illegals in this country, we must change our spending habit. Without our demand, there would not be the supply. The illegals are only a symptom of the issue, not the root cause.

BTW, I am not advocating that we stop outsourcing or take advantage of cheap labor, either, due to global competitiveness reasons, but that's another topic altogether.

J.

[sharonking21]

93. The strange thing

about all this is that so many people expect those of us who are for Clark to all follow the same "party line." Unlikely. Most of us who are attracted to Clark like him, in part, just because he makes a practice of intellectually questioning almost everything. And if he decides he's been wrong or uninformed previously, he is not afraid to speak up and say so.

I have no idea what his current thinking is on all of this. In general he espouses reality-based thinking tempered with humanitarianism.

And having analyzed my own motley stance on different issues, I no longer base my support of a candidate on any single issue. I expect people who think to have a set of rather eclectic and idiosyncratic stances on issues. I prize the thinking more than I do the actual stance as long as the candidate has a heart and will advance general small-d democratic goals and defend our system of government and civil liberties from attack from the far right.

[jfenway]

105. I don't know if you are responding to me..

But I certainly don't expect all Clarkies to agree on anything, other than the support of Clark..

J.

[sharonking21]

113. No and after I posted

I worried that you would think it was directed at you. Your honest question merely triggered my memory of all those earlier comments on some thread about Clark supporters "worshiping" the man.

I should have made myself clear. I find I am unconsciously "carrying over" from other threads.

As an illustration, I chose to respond to someone who has opposing views from me on immigration even though he/she is also apparently an honorable and esteemed Clark supporter.

[Clarkie1]

115. Here is what General Clark Says

From Wes Clark's 2003 with Lou Dobbs on the subject of undocumented immigrants:

DOBBS: . . . Ten million illegal aliens in this country. We have a border that, despite all the concerns about national security, homeland security, that is absolutely porous. What would you do about a national immigration policy? What would you do about the 10 million illegal aliens now in this country?


CLARK: Well, first of all, I think we need to really put leadership into homeland security. We're just now getting started on homeland security. It's been over two years. Jim Moore (ph), I think, has done a great job of working airline security. But we've got a long way to go on the borders. And there's no excuse that we're seeing dozens of Mexicans and Hispanics dying in the Arizona desert each summer.

I think we need to set up a system for guest workers in this country. I think we need to encourage legal immigration. I think we need to discourage illegal immigration. For those undocumented aliens that are here, for those that have been good citizens that hold responsible jobs, I think we ought to have a procedure where they can work their way into citizenship.

DOBBS: And those illegal aliens that are in this country, those 10 million, you're basically saying amnesty?

CLARK: Well, I'm saying that you need a program where people who are here and lack the documentation can one way or another work their way into citizenship. It's not a general amnesty. It's dependent on their performance and what kind of citizens they'll be.

DOBBS: You use the word "undocumented" and "those who don't have papers." The immigration service itself uses the expression "illegal alien." Is there some reason that you would not use that expression?

CLARK: Well, I think it is a question of whether you're talking about the act of crossing the border or people inside the country. There's a wide variety of offenses against the immigration laws. And what I'm interested in are the people.


Entire transcript from "Lou Dobbs Tonight," broadcast on CNN 10/27/03 is at:

http://tinyurl.com/t9gy

"I think we're at risk with our democracy. I think we're dealing with the most closed, imperialistic, nastiest administration in living memory. They even put Richard Nixon to shame." - Wesley Clark

[sharonking21]

118. Thanks for the post and the URL (N/T)

[flpoljunkie]

129. Thanks. A thoughtful and intelligent discussion of the issue from Clark.

Lou Dobbs really has a hard-on about "illegal immigration"--rarely is there a show he does not bring it up somehow.

[MollyStark]

90. My ancestors came here legally too

They had no choice. I'll bet if they could have walked across a border they would have done so to feed their family. I'll bet yours would have too.

[Radical Activist]

99. Today's immigrants want the same things my ancestors wanted.

If they were allowed to move their families and live her legally they would do so. They come here temporarily and send their money back because we have made most immigration illegal. Its not the immigrants who have changed, its xenophobic Americans who have changed the rules.

The last time I drove across the Great Plains states it didn't look too crowded. We're sending American jobs overseas to cheap labor markets anyway. If we keep the cheap labor within our borders at least they'll spend a lot of their money inside the US economy.

[Carolab]

100. Rationalization.

While living within U.S. borders, and working for lower wages, you are hurting LEGAL citizens of this country who deserve and have worked for those wages/standard of living.

Other countries will NOT allow U.S. citizens to move/work there without establishing that they meet a "quota"/point system requirement or that they can prove they have $12K per year for 5 years (for retirement) or that they purchase a business in that country.

These are ECONOMIC considerations designed to protect the economic rights of LEGAL citizens of those countries. Why should Americans be willing to do anything else?

Your arguments are selfish.

Make your stay here LEGAL. Otherwise, go home.

[Radical Activist]

103. Projection.

You're telling me I should only care about the ecnomic needs of Americans, but not those who were born outside the United States and that makes ME selfish? That's rich.

[Carolab]

112. I'm saying Americans are not the saviours of the world.

Other nations need to fix their economic problems and we need to fix ours.

If other nations can put up gates and bar OUR entry to THEIR country, then WE can do the SAME.

I'd LOVE to leave the good old US of A and move to/work in some other nations, like Canada. But they put up too many roadblocks for me to do it. I can't just "go there" and start a new life. So why should illegals come here and do the same, just so some businessman can hire some cheap labor? Let that businessman hire a legal citizen instead and pay the cost(s) associated.

Example: I work in construction (sales). My boss (a Republican businessman) hires Mexican illegals to do roofing on our houses because they are CHEAPER. This saves him money (savings which he doesn't pass on to the buyer) and cuts out a citizen laborer. That citizen laborer, lacking gainful employment at his trade, then perhaps cannot afford to build/buy a house. Is that fair?

[MollyStark]

134. What country did your ancestors come from?

Whenever they came we weren't the saviors of the world either.

Irish.... the potato famine wasn't our fault

Jewish..... we didn't put Hitler in power

English........ religious persecution is no excuse

Cuban........... go fight Castro youself

[Carolab]

136. England, Germany and Sweden

My mother's ancestors were among the early settlers at Plymouth, MA.

They arrived as political prisoners. Married Lincolns and Boones, fought and were decorated heroes in the Revolutionary war, civil war, etc.

Other English ancestors followed in the 1800s, helped to establish Chicago and parts of California.

Germans and Swedes arrived in the late 1800s, settled in the midwest, some left behind fortunes confiscated by the government (WWI). Some of the Germans were Jewish, and changed their name upon arrival to avoid antisemitism.

[MollyStark]

126. Legal Smeagol

The ruling class makes the law. If you are not native american I am sure they would like you to take your ancestors and go home too.

[Clarkie1]

114. That is historically inaccurate.

Look it up.

[Carolab]

53. Other countries won't let US stay.

Why should we be any different?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

59. Bye bye now.

ALERT!

P.S. Your response lacks any logic whatsoever. The post concerned whether or not illegal aliens should be allowed to stay, not the politico-social mores of other countries.

And, by the way, it's "follow SUIT", not "follow SUITE". A "suite" is a room you stay in, or a musical composition of many pieces, or a group of related things. Get a flippin' dictionary.

[jfenway]

60. The post concerned..

whether or not illegal aliens should be allowed in THIS country, not the politico-social mores of other countries when it concerns illegal aliens.

If my response lacks logic, it is only to demonstrate the same in your response - which was the intent.

J.

[Carolab]

61. Sorry, wrong again.

My response was right on the money. If U.S. citizens as illegals in other countries are not allowed to stay, then other nationals who are here illegally should also be shown the door.

[jfenway]

64. If I demonstrate that US citizens that are illegals..

are allowed to stay in certain countries (or the law is not enforced), does that mean we should treat their nationals the same?

If US women are not allowed to show their face in public in Saudi Arabia, do we tell Saudi women to do the same here in the US?

If you are caned in Singapore because you littered on the sidewalk, do we do the same for Singaporeans litterbugs here? (OK I might have to agree with this one)..

If, hypothetically, a country routinely execute US nationals, do we do the same with their citizens if they were to step foot in our country?

J.

[jfenway]

62. You've edited your post like 3 times now in the past 30 seconds..

And you expect everybody else to be perfect on their typing and spelling? When it SUITS your purpose it's OK to compare with other countries, but when it doesn't it's illogical to do so?

Get a brain.

J.

[Carolab]

63. Get a life.

n/t

[jfenway]

65. You first...

[Hippo_Tron]

56. This is an extremely difficult issue

I'm really not sure.

[incapsulated]

67. Even with a "Guest Worker" program, there would still be illegals

The whole motivation for hiring illegal aliens is that they are cheap and disposable labor. If they were part of a government sponsored program, that would insist on decent wages, the reason for hiring them would disappear, and another underground economy would spring up.

A few would benefit, such as live-in maids/nannies, who are depended upon by the families that hire them, most of whom would be willing to pay.

The question here is: Is it the responsibility of the taxpayers in America to prop up the failing economy of other nations? For the benefit of those that would exploit poor people for cheap labor and have no problem screwing their fellow americans in the process?

This is no different that outsourcing in many ways. It's a race to the bottom that benefits the scum that exploit cheap labor. You lose your job, and someone in Asia is willing to take it at a fraction of the earnings because they are desperate and poor, benefiting the overall economy of a nation halfway around the world and the American corporations that move there. At the cost of the jobs of Americans and their children's financial future.

In the case of Mexico, whose economy would probably collapse without the influx of money from illegals working here, the problem used to be mainly about the cost to the taxpayers, whose money was being spent providing schooling and healthcare to non-citizens here illegally. But increasingly, the jobs that are being lost to illegal labor are not just the "shit jobs nobody wants". From restaurant workers to construction jobs where they are hired as day labor, illegal aliens are in areas that the working class, especially, have always depended on. And the toll they are taking on the border cities as their number increases is very real.

Mexico needs to find a better way of improving their economy than exporting illegal labor for the money it sends back home. And this country needs to protect it's people from the many ways that they are being screwed economically, here and abroad.

Too much of the focus is on the people here illegaly, and not on the fact that there is an unwritten agreement between our government and Mexico to allow this to happen. Which is exactly why those that hire them are not prosecuted, and our borders are left barely guarded.

[nomatrix]

68. Whatever argument you want to make about our

ancestors, they weren't bleeding the system dry.

They were proud to come to this country and taught their children to bring pride to their family and country.

Check your property taxes to see how much these "guest workers" are costing the tax payers. (BTW, if you didn't pay taxes, you aren't a tax payer.)

They don't come alone. Huge families that don't speak English, flooding the schools, using hospitals for primary care, with no insurance, or immunizations, getting on food stamps, sending the cash they make back to Mexico. The kids are out of control, running through the store, sampling the bulk food items and the parents do not give a rats ass.

Any area that is flooded with migrant workers knows, the jobs in the paper say "bilingual preferred". Ya, right.

Do they pay property taxes?
Car insurance?
Health insurance?

Should we be who have paid all our lives, foot the bill for them?

Ya, I have had enough. They can park those robot soldiers along the border as far as I am concerned.

[Mass]

77. They dont cost to everybody

An economy is florishing on the back of these people that are exploited and not surprisingly, nobody wants to strike on those who are benefiting from it.

BTW, when you talk about the aliens that you describe, how do you know they are illegal? When I read you, it seems more than you are describing all Hispanic people (US citizens included). There is clearly a problem with illegal immigration, but dont put it on the back of poor people who want to improve their lives.

Your confusion between illegal workers and migrant workers (who sometimes are perfectly legal) is striking.

[EFerrari]

81. Am speechless

"They weren't bleeding the system dry".

Hermanito, I beg to disagree. The system here was once not the reproduction of SUV drivers. Let's no even go into the native populations decimated or "relocated" or displaced. (And Spanish is, by treaty, a legal language of the territories we stole from Mexico. Check out that map sometime.)

It's just stunning to have the proposition of uprooting millions of families bandied about as if there were no consequences of import.

In practice, the Cabal's racist base will clash with the demand for cheap labor, so that wall will take a really long time to go up.

I only hope I'm on the right side of it when it does.

[nomatrix]

84. Am speechless?

In English that means you have nothing to say.

When U.S. citizen, take it upon themselves to form a militia of 1000 there is something seriously wrong. From your lofty tower, you can't see that.

[EFerrari]

85. You're right. There is something seriously wrong. n/t

[LoganW]

101. Actually the Klan did that

50 years ago. They had a militia of a couple million. Yea, something was seriously wrong... but not with who the militia was targetting.

[Mr.Green93]

94. Why are you using the term 'ILLEGAL aliens'?

It seems you have already judged these people.

[jfenway]

106. I believe that is the proper term..

and personally, I don't see anything wrong with the use. I believe it is used also in official INS documents.

J.

[nickshepDEM]

116. They are here illegaly. Therefore, they are ILLEGALS. n/t

[BlueManDude]

95. unless there is a legitimate persecution issue - send them home.

they shouldn't come here for economic reasons.

[jfenway]

107. Why not?

J.

[EVDebs]

102. Exporting America: Corporate Greed ... read 'globalization' is behind

it and only fools continue to promote what is obviously destroying America, the American Middle Class, and adding significantly to the Underclass !

My proposal to Mexico if it comes to negotiations is this: if Mexico wants to continue dumping 20% of its population onto the United States (read illegal immigrants and 'anchor babies') then the United States should require Mexico to pass a law allowing foreigners to purchase 100% title in property in Mexico.

You can bet that that will settle things down a bit more.

[gardenista]

104. HELL NO!!!

Geez, this place is starting to look like Free Republic.

[WillyT]

109. Nope !!! - Unless Ya Wanna See Tomatoes At $20.00 A Pound !!!

Exaggeration, sure. But you get the idea. Agri-Business would go to pieces if they could truly do this.

[MominTN]

110. Send them home!

Illegal aliens use our tax-provided resources without contributing anything. They do take away jobs from legal American citizens in many fields such as landscaping, painting, roofing, woodworking, fencing, and food service. After they are here for awhile and learn the system, they charge as much as their American counterparts but they still don't pay taxes or make any other contribution to our society. They also take away jobs that our high school and college kids need to pay for their education. They take away jobs from moms who have to support their kids. They take away jobs from our seniors who can't make it on their pidly social security check. If there were no citizens to do these jobs, the companies could use existing work visas because there are MANY approved without any consideration. The people who come here illegally usually seek work after they get here. They are not qualified or educated, and bring down the literacy level of America. Often they do not even speak English. Without health insurance they cause our health costs to rise. This is unfare to citizens. The majority of Americans want it stopped. Innovation in farming took place after slavery was abolished. Once the illegal aliens are stopped from entering our country illegally, further innovation will happen in many industries. Also, the minimum wage can rise such that Americans will do the work when they can live on the paycheck. When we don't have to pay the healthcare cost and education cost of illegal aliens maybe we won't mind paying a few more dollars for whatever crops are still grown in this country. If John Kerry had stated that he was going to stop illegal entry to our country and give local law enforcement the right to arrest illegal aliens and deport them, he would have been elected by a landslide. Unfortunately in spite of the parties on the right and the left, there is no middle party that represents the majority of Americans. Until government represents the people, we will have minority factions running our country into the ground with their agenda sold by propaganda. Many of these illegal aliens are criminals. Crime, rape, and murder increases in the neighborhoods where they live. Do we have to wait to be injured or killed to arrest them? Are you willing to risk your child's life?

[Bridget Burke]

120. Sorry, they do pay taxes.

Not income tax--unless they're using a fake SS#, in which case they're also paying into social security & will never see a cent.

They pay sales tax when it's charged--like here in Texas, where there's no state income tax. And although they're rarely property owners, their rent is raised every time property taxes go up. Trust me--landlords DO pass on the expenses.

If those who hire undocumented workers were tossed into prison for a couple of years & fined out the wazoo, the workers would stop coming. Unless this happens, they WILL continue.

Hint: Learn about "paragraphs"--it will make your messages look less like hysterical screeds. Most "English Only" advocates seem to lack skill in the one language they claim to know.

[Mass]

128. Thank you for that answer

Too many people reacted to the initial post as if they dont understand what the situation is, and may be they dont. It is good to see there are still some people on our side that are not ready to fall in the trap of pandering and who see where the real problem is.

This is really reassuring in what has been a very depressing thread altogether.