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Since some have ingested the Kool-Aid and some are actually DEFENDING

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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:01 AM
Original message
Since some have ingested the Kool-Aid and some are actually DEFENDING
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 01:05 AM by TheWatcher
those who ingested the Kool-Aid, perhaps it's time we explore the core of the argument itself.

Tell me again about this blooming "Democracy" we have in Iraq, and in the Middle East. How in spite of all the atrocities this excuse for a poor falicy of what loosely passes for representative government of ours has done, the World is becoming a better place in spite of ourselves.

Enlighten me again how the death of 100,000 Iraqis and the Deaths of 1500 Soldiers, plus the criminal actions of this Crime Family have resulted in "Democracy." How it has all been "Worth it in spite of it all."

I find arguments over fictional ideas and fabricated unfounded non-facts fascinating, which is essentaily what this whole argument is about.

Not only are Maher and others who have expressed his sentiment wrong, they are defending something that simply has not happened, and does not exist.

Perhaps I missed something.

Also, tell me of the wonders of silver linings that came out of the actions of The Nazis, and how that bettered the world too, and how all of that was necessary and worth it in spite of the horrible tragedy.

Should be fascinating to hear.
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ogradda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wow. I haven't been on much lately.
What the hell have I been missing??
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Worth it in spite of it all." ?
I can't think of anything that was 'woth it'. And never thought it was 'worth it' from the get-go.
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TOhioLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. The ends...
...do NOT justify the means...PERIOD!
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. No they do not.
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 01:15 AM by TheWatcher
But the disturbing thing is some are actually beginning to delude themselves that perhaps that despite all of this, Democracy will come to the Middle East in spite of it all, and that this story will have a happy ending.

That even though the Criminals are still in control, it will all work itself out, no matter what OTHER messes they create.

Perhaps the Earth IS Flat after all.

You know, I am all for Positive Thinking, but delusion isn't my cup of tea.

If the current crop of thugs continues to shape our world that is EXACTLY what the belief that everything will turn out alright anyway is.

A delusion.

And a rather desperate one.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. "But perhaps I am wrong."
There's a lot less Kool-Aid and a lot more confusion that you realize. And besides, you can't count on people believing what you believe.

Education and dialog should be continuous. People dying of thirst, when offered Kool-Aid, will drink it and be grateful. Our mission is to offer them something better -- in politics, the truth.

People aren't unenlightened from initiative on their part. Anger is for nothing -- education alone will turn the tide. People are alienated and cynical, so this is the perfect time in history for it.

And the cheapskates mixed the Kool-Aid too weak, anyway; a couple of beers and an hour of comradery provides a tremendous opportunity to change minds.

--p!
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I wish to share in your view
And that was very eloquently put.

Hoever, the statements that Maher and others have been making I do find incredulous, especially when there is really no evidence that such statements are based in reality. Wanting something to be true is not the same as it actually being true.

Also, if enough voices of an influencial nature jump on this bandwagon and perpetuate it, is it not to be said that this is ENABLING those who are doing irrepairable harm to the world as we know it?

If people want to believe that there is good coming out of this, let them.

The reality of what is really going on needs to be addressed, and the delusion of the idea that these people are peretuating is not helpful at this juncture.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. We overestimate Maher (and the rest of the "Pundits")
He's just not that influential, not even among news junkies, who are quite a small minority as it is.

If you're talking about the recent declarations of the flowering of Democracy in Iraq, I also think it's hardly fatal to our case. It is good that Saddam is out, and Democracy is starting up again (maybe). The point that most people realize is that the price was extremely high because of blunders made by Team Bush. They know that if Bush had worked on the coalition first, and brought down Saddam without military intervention, he would be enjoying praise as the Second Coming. As it was, he rushed us into a war based on a lie; the war has cost a quarter of a trillion dollars just for the direct costs; and the rest of the world thinks we have a fool for a leader.

Of course there's some good that is coming out of it. But it's not about the golden lining. People realize that a golden lining at the cost of an ocean of blood, international suspicion and wasted wealth is the Booby Prize in a conflict that is much more grave than an arcade game.

If you talk to actual "man on the street" Republicans, you'll hear quite a lot of radical-sounding stuff between the angry complaints about Team Bush. You might hear some things that are at variance with your own ideas, but you'll know that they are no robotic Freepers. They are as likely to tell you "I must have been crazy to have voted for that imbecile!" And it will only get worse.

No, the Press, the Punditocracy, Bill Maher and the rest of them won't talk about these things until reality bites them in the collective ass. But for all the silence on the TV, there's noise in the Real World. And that noise does not favor the way things are.

The pundits speak for the pundits alone. And even though you may feel like nobody is listening to you most of the time, be assured, they are.

--p!
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Again, very eloquently put.
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 02:10 AM by TheWatcher
You do make a lot of sense. The only part I disagree about is that something good has come out of it.

In my opinion, the elections were a sham, and whatever successes we claim to have brought with the so-called "elections" are at best illusory. No one can deny that Saddam being gone is good, but it would appear that we may have actually made things WORSE.

It would be one thing had this been the only course of reasonable action and the only ill-fated choice we could make, but it wasn't, it wasn't even close, and those who led us down this path did so for reasons and an agenda that had absolutely NOTHING to do with democracy, the greater good, or even any of the reasons that most sane thinking individuals could have approached this with. There is no justification for something so senseless and narrow, at the expense of the rest of the species.

There is no way this current set of circumstances should have even been up for consideration. The people responsible should be held accountable and the appropriate penalties assessed. Period. In my mind this course of action made about as much sense as Hitler's Final Solution. Unthinkable.

And yet he we are.

Though the prognosis is grim, perhaps sanity at some point can be returned to the world.

But it will NOT be returned in any shape or form as long as the current structure of power controlling things goes unopposed and unabated.

To think so is nothing short of foolish.

That being said, I share in your hope and in your words that not only are we being heard, that the wishes our voices speak will somehow come to fruition.
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queeg Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. Defending the undefendable
A. If the President hadn't LIED to get us to go to war and actually told the truth, gone through truthful reasons why the war was in fact inevitable (I believe it was) then I may have supported it.

B. If the congress hadn't LIED about a free war "we'll pay for it from the oil they sell" I might have supported it.

C. If the President hadn't LIED about the time frame for the war I might have supported it.

D. If the President hadn't LIED about it being part of the "war on terror" I might have supported it.

E. If the President had actually had an agreement with other countries about the inevitability of the war, and not just Poland...I might have supported it.

F. If the President actally had a strategy for the war that lasted longer than 2 weeks including a reasonable time table for withdrawal, I would be "shocked and awed"

We will see more of this coming in the next 3 years. All the president needs to do is scare up some more troops. I doubt that even if he instated a draft tomorrow he would have enough of an army left to engage Syria or Iran before he is gone. Just be glad the military is as professional as it is right now, because we may need them in the end for defense and not just warfighting.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Your attempt at defending this is pretty weak, but at least you have
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 01:36 AM by TheWatcher
conviction.

It deserves a response. Point by Point.

A. If the President hadn't LIED to get us to go to war and actually told the truth, gone through truthful reasons why the war was in fact inevitable (I believe it was) then I may have supported it.


How exactly was this war inevitable? How was Iraq a threat? They had no weapons, they did not attack us, they had nothing to do with 9/11, and exactly HOW were they going to start an "inevitable war" with us. Do explain. This should be fascinating. What reasons did they have that were reasonable to you?



B. If the congress hadn't LIED about a free war "we'll pay for it from the oil they sell" I might have supported it.

This statement alone is baffling. You would have been willing to support something that is destrying our economy that was comlpetely unnecessary? The economic costs of this have already been devastating, and THEY AREN'T DONE. The TRUE COST of this war isn't even known, and will not be known for some time.

C. If the President hadn't LIED about the time frame for the war I might have supported it.

What has the time frame for an unecessary war got to do with anything. ?NO time frame for this was justifiable. It should not have been done in the first place.

D. If the President hadn't LIED about it being part of the "war on terror" I might have supported it.

For what reason? What WOULD have been a justification?

I had to give up after this, sorry. There simply isn't a defense for something that should not have been done in the first place. I defy anyone to come up with something reasonable that suggests we had no other chice than to do this. You can't.


"We will see more of this coming in the next 3 years. All the president needs to do is scare up some more troops.

How? Recruitment is at an all time low. And with the way things are going, you would actually WANT to send more troops into this unecessary meat grinder?

You actually seem to think this is a winnable situation.

Simple question.

HOW?
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queeg Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Response
I believe that the UN is a working and workable organization. Hussein had consistently defied the weapons inspectors and at times had ejected them. We now know in hindsight that he may have been toying with them and with the UN, but defiance of a worldwide and multilateral order for him to disarm was there and not what the US ended up with. I firmly believe that the end of his baa'thist party in control on that nation was going to be a matter of sooner or later. And sooner or later the US was going to be the primary force in the issue.

Bush forced the issue and not Hussein. Allowing Hussein even another 6 months would have created enough ill will that we would not now be the only army in that country. While Iraqi deaths may have been 100,000 in the end or not, I truly believe that if the President had used truth rather than LIES, the entire fiasco would have been over within 6 months.

He was determined from the beginning of his administration to unilaterally atttack rather than allow Hussein to become even a greater paraiah in the world and this was the mistake. Eventually Hussein would have overreached and either been overthrown from within. (the best scenario) or would have done something so monumentally stupid that the French or Germans may have requested to be the first units into Baghdad. (Look up the name Gerrald Bull for some of Husseins brilliant ideas)

Instead, we were sold a bill of goods from Bush about this being part of the "war on terror" and how oil sales would make it a cost free war for the taxpayers.

and Yeah, I am glad that our army is overstreched right now just for the case that we CAN'T start another war this week. watch out for the Marines and the Navy in the Carribean though because Venezuela may be next week.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I believe you want to have a reasonable view
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 05:11 AM by TheWatcher
But you are completely discounting something.

I could be wrong in interpreting your statements, and forgive me if I am, but there seems to be assumption on your part that these people actually gave a damn about doing anything for the greater good in this region to begin with.

These people are criminals. They are killers. They are liars. They no more care about any common or greater good than you and I care about what the weather is like on Pluto. There was an agenda here that was planned long before Bush even entertained the idea of running for President. You really should check out The Project For A New American Century Web Site and educate yourself if you are not familiar with it.

You agree that we were sold a Bill Of goods by Bush, but there seems to be some disconnect in regards to the intentions of these people in the region.

You are also incorrect about Saddam's weapons. He didn't have any weapons in the end. And as far as the inspectors go, He DID NOT kick them out. Bush Invaded BEFORE they could finish their work. He told them to leave. As far as toying with the UN, if that was truly what he was doing, he was insane. He had nothing to game WITH. Iraq was a contained entity and we controlled most of the country through the No Fly Zones, and 12 years of sanctions took care of the rest.

People MUST stop buying into the Propaganda. No broad American, Humanitarian, or even Geopolitical Interests at large were EVER the intention of what we have done here. PNAC has nothing to do with ANY greater good. Sorry friend, but your perceptions are wrong. This was planned out LONG before Bush took office, and the rationality and reasons they projected for this invasion were nothing more than that. Saddam was merely the bogeyman they conveniently used to justify what they REALLY wanted to do. Someday people are going to realize they didn't give a damn about Saddam, the Iraqi people, or anything to do with the issues that affect that part of the world. They merely used them as the means for an end to further an agenda for Empire.

And America bought it. Hook, Line, and Sinker.

As bad as Saddam was, the people that lead this country have forgotten more about being a threat to the World than he ever could have learned or have been capable of.

While it heartens me to see you realize were sold a Bill Of Goods, it would seem you are still unaware of the OTHER Bill Of Goods you bought and still have not recognized.

It doesn't make people bad for not realizing it, it is just a matter of having the right information.

Sadly, most in this country still do not.
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queeg Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Iraq with or without Bush
I agree about most of your points, I do however believe that there was going to be a showdown in Iraq no matter if Bush or Gore were President. Bush wanted it to happen from day one of his presidency, and I believe Gore would have tried to prevent it from happening. But in the end it was a foregone conclusion that it was going to happen. Something was going to happen. PNAC may be part of the right wing justification for this, but thats all it is. Because in the end we were just following a script that had been in place since 1991.

As for the rest of the region and the reasoning behind Bush and his plans, that however is seriously flawed. and I do not believe that what they are doing is for the "Greater good" it is for their own good and for the good of those who have paid them to be where they are.
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. I think that most Duers understand
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 01:20 AM by Blue_State_Elitist
that what happened in Iraq was nothing close to a democratic election.

A) Democratic elections cannot occur if voters are intimidated. Imagine if a car bomb went off on election day in the United States. It would declared illegitimate.


B) An entire group of the country didn't vote.


C) The groups that voted, voted because they don't want democracy in Iraq. The Shiites voted in order to be able to install a theocracy, the Kurds voted because they want an independent Kurdistan.




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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I think they do too.
Edited on Sat Mar-19-05 02:12 AM by TheWatcher
I have just been aghast at some of the statements I have seen defending positions like the one Maher took.

It's very simple.

There is nothing wrong with thinking positive, and wishing for positive outcomes in spite of all of the things that are going on.

But bleating out positive statements and praise that completely ignores all facts and reality of what is really going on, is delusion at the very least, flat out kowtowing, enabling, and even supporting at the worst.

We CANNOT lose our focus.

If we actually give into these people's policies without resisting them to the bitter end, calling them to task, and somehow seeking accountability, this country is finished.

If it isn't already.
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Last Lemming Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
10. Are you kidding?
We've just introduced Iraq to the fine art of election fraud--and we are going about "democracy." We don't even have democracy here my friend.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
15. Jim Jones didn't die. He just came back as GHW*
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. Deleted message
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
18. The silver lining that came out of the Nazis' wars of aggression;
"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.

-Nuremberg Tribunal, Kellogg-Briand Pact
US-signed & ratified Treaty


"All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state." Article 39 established the authority of the Security Council to "determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression" and to "decide what measures shall be taken."

-United Nations Charter, Article 2 Clause 4
US-signed & ratified Treaty

International laws against wars of aggression such as those waged by Hitler...and now bush.

That was a silver lining that came out of the actions of the Nazis; that did better the world. Exactly what millions died for; exactly what bush is busily undoing now.
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. There is no democracy in Iraq
Period

So their is no 'ends' to justify the means
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