Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I Will Not Vote for A Candidate Who Voted for War in Iraq & Patriot Act

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 05:50 PM
Original message
I Will Not Vote for A Candidate Who Voted for War in Iraq & Patriot Act
Edited on Thu Jan-22-04 05:52 PM by David Zephyr
To the Democratic Party’s peril, it appears that there is still an open question as to whether or not the great lesson from the 2002 mid-term elections --- when the Democrats were trounced after supporting George W. Bush with his War, his Patriot Act, his airline bailouts and tax cuts for billionaires because millions of Party activists and the Left sat out the election in disgust with Democrats in Congress for not standing up to White House and its agenda --- that you need your base to win elections.

Even Howard Dean's greatest detractors are frank about one thing: he moved John Kerry to the left. And if Dean were to be out of the race, Kerry would immediately move back to his post 9/11 and pre-Dean conservatism which permitted him to vote without shame for The Patriot Act, the Airline Bailout and the War in Iraq.

With the Corporate Media going after Dean (as they did Kucinich, the other significant anti-war candidate), Kerry seems emboldened now to distance himself from the temporary anti-war language he adopted and used in the Iowa race during the very last week. Haven't heard much of that this week, have we? Don't expect to either.

In fact, just this morning, one of Kerry's key supporters in the South, Congressman Harold Ford, Jr. was already on television touting the fact that John Kerry had indeed voted for the War in Iraq and had stood with Bush against Saddam Hussein!

What a difference a day makes, huh?

When Howard Dean entered the race, he struck a chord with millions of activists in this country who were fed up with a great many of the leaders within the Democratic Party. Dean directly appealed to and inspired activists who had sat out 2002 midterms in disgust with their Party’s facilitating the Bush agenda. The result: The Republicans were rewarded control over the Senate, but as I have pointed out here that more rightwing legislation was passed during Tom Daschle’s brief stewardship of the Senate than under Bill Frist’s.

Dean's success in signing up over 500,000 volunteers in nearly 1,000 cities around the country and raising tens of millions of dollars in small contributions in less than 10 months was and still is unparalleled in American political history. He gave the millions of us who have felt betrayed by our Party a glimmer of hope that the Party of the People might be just that again. Dean was not afraid to challenge George Bush and to stand with those of us who were dismissed time and time again as “the fringe”.

To his campaign staff’s great credit, Kerry finally recognized this, and most adroitly moved leftward the last week before the Iowa caucus, co-opting much of Dean’s message and even became "anti-war" in spite of the glaring fact that he had voted to permit Bush's war for oil. A slick political move by Kerry, no doubt.

But here's the rub for me. Kerry's vote for the War in Iraq and, perhaps worse, the Patriot Act simply make it impossible for me to vote for him...even if he becomes the nominee of our Party. I know also, that there are millions who feel exactly as I do, so getting "angry" with me for stating how I feel will only blind those who want to defeat George Bush in November to the great depth of antipathy that a great many of us feel about the filth of the Patriot Act and the vile nature of the War in Iraq. John Kerry has had ample opportunity in my eyes to address these issues with those of us on the Left who have waited and waited. With the Primaries moving into Dixie, it seems apparent to me that Kerry now plans to actually tout his voting for the War and the Patriot Act as Congressman Ford signaled to all Americans this morning...and so there is no point in my waiting for a renunciation or apology form the Junior Senator from Massachusetts anymore. I am finished with John Kerry.

There have been and are many threads here at the DU where individuals claim that they will never vote for Dean should he be the nominee or that they will never vote for Lieberman should he be the nominee. In fact, there is a poll currently of this genre about Howard Dean racking up the votes of those who will not vote for Howard Dean should he be the nominee. I have never, in nearly three years, ever written that I would not support any candidate should he be my Party’s nominee. I have probably written more posts criticizing Joe Lieberman than any of the other candidates, but I have to give Senator Lieberman respect for the fact that he didn’t wait until Howard Dean was wounded politically to proudly stand by his votes for the War in Iraq and the Patriot Act. Lieberman has never once hedged on his conviction that he was right to vote as he did. When Lieberman accuses Kerry of “waffling” on his votes, he is only speaking the truth.

Governor Dean, in spite of the Corporate sponsored pundits and in spite of the wishes of the DLC, is not going away. Unlike the other candidates, he has tens of millions of dollars, viable organizations in all 50 states, nearly 500,000 volunteers…and more delegates accumulated towards the nomination. Dean will participate in every Primary picking up delegates along the way to the Convention in Boston. And whether he has 50% for a first roll call victory or not, I caution all of his opponents and detractors within the Party not to take lightly a candidate who comes into a closed convention hall with minimum of 35% of the delegates. I am speaking about Activist delegates, not the buttoned-down and winged tipped city council type delegates who come for the corporate-sponsored festivities and ballroom activities, but hard-core, issue related individuals who always spar with the more conservative and moneyed interests. Those delegates are never to be toyed with and they don’t just disappear.

Howard Dean isn’t angry, but millions of his supporters and admirers sure are. We are not just angry with George Bush and Dick Cheney, but we are also angry with the compromisers within our Party that coddled to Bush and did his bidding at beck and call. You see, we know what they did last summer. And they know we know.

The mega-wattage disdain shown against Howard Dean by the Party Establishment and the Corporate Media is truly reflective of its disdain for the activist Left within the Party. That cavalier disdain and dismissal of the activist base has steadily led to the growth of the Green Party to the great detriment of the Democratic Party. The recent San Francisco mayoral election was most revealing where Republicans actually joined with Democrats arm-in-arm to squeak out a fragile victory of Matt Gonzales, the Green Candidate.

Howard Dean was not the “loser” in Iowa. It was Dick Gephardt, the “I’m proud of my vote for the War in Iraq” candidate who was the “loser”. And since when is a candidate who picks up delegates in a state contest required to give a “concession speech” as the Corporate Media and the Democratic Party Establishment would want one to believe? Correct me if I am wrong, but I heard no one suggesting that John Edwards should have had a “concession speech”.

Howard Dean’s cheerful pep rally to his supporters was exactly what it should have been for a campaign that intends to compete in every state contest. “How arrogant” of Dean, the corporate class bellowed. “Where’s his contrition? Why won’t this man and his supporters who are a pain in our collective asses just go away?”

Well, they may get what they wish for. For as activists sat out the midterms in rage in 2002, don’t be surprised if the same thing happen in November should the Party nominate an individual who now proudly stands by his vote for War in Iraq and the Patriot Act.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bravo
you've taken what's in my heart and put words to it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
85. that's accountability.....nice thread...I agree
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Gonzalez: Let's be brave
A NOTE FROM MATT GONZALEZ

"I am endorsing Dennis Kucinich for President because he is running an unapologetic progressive campaign and is the only candidate that has taken clear positions on all the issues. Whether it is by calling for universal health care, proposing the withdrawal of troops from Iraq, advocating the need for our country to disengage from the WTO and NAFTA, or insisting on fundamental electoral reform such as instant runoff voting, Kucinich simply stands apart from the others. In all respects he is offering the people of this country a more humane, democratic, and egalitarian society. In contrast, the other Democratic Party candidates cannot decide what they believe. Even when one of them has the courage to oppose the war, once challenged, the candidate reverses himself and adopts the hawkish pro war policy of continuing what has already been started. These other candidates offer the people of this country watered down progressive politics and the same old, tired, politics of ambiguity and equivocation.

"I have served in elective office and seen how progressive politics can improve our society in very real and practical ways, whether it is the promotion of renewable energy, raising the minimum wage, or extending rights to immigrants who live in our cities. Our views, once implemented, improve the lives of hard working people who are increasingly disenchanted with corrupt politics.

"The primary argument the conservative wing (and even many in the liberal wing) of the Democratic Party uses against Kucinich is that he cannot be elected. But this cynicism underscores the fact that Kucinich's message, once heard, is resonating with masses of people and that the only hope of quieting this candidate is by scaring away potential supporters. Let's be brave. Vote Kucinich for President."

Matt Gonzalez
President, Board of Supervisors
City & County of San Francisco
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm a Dean supporter but I will vote for the Dem nominee
even if he did vote for the IWR, or the Patriot Act, or NCLB. I won't like it, but I will.

Just as I made my peace with the Governor's gun stance and less-than-100%-opposition to the death penalty, I'll make my peace with that too. Again, I won't like it, but I'll do it because the alternative is too bloody frightening and I won't in any way contribute to 4 more years of Bush. I compromised some things to support Dean and I'll compromise others to get a Dem in the White House.

And as things stand now, I don't think ANY of 'em (except Lieberman) "stand proudly" by their votes for the IWR or the Patriot Act.

eileen from OH
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. are we so conditioned to loyalty oaths around here
that you give one even when not asked for it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. I believe my point was in response
to "how could you ever vote for anyone that voted for the IRW resolution or the Patriot Act?" And I was pointing out that, as a Dean supporter I had ALREADY "compromised" on some things because his pluses outweighed 'em for me. And I'd do it again to get a Dem in the White House if I hafta. If that came off as a "loyalty oath" to you, well, hey, go for it.


eileen from OH
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Remember the Gennifer Flowers Scandal?
Edited on Thu Jan-22-04 06:01 PM by BeatleBoot
Clinton survived that during the primaries.

Dean can and might still win this thing. He is not out of the race.

I am a Kerry supporter, but if Dean wins, I'll vote for him in a New York second.

As far as the Dean supporters "sitting it out" if Dean doesn't win the nomination - well, that's childish. And if they choose Nader then they aren't Democrats and they can have the Chimp for four more years.

C'est facile.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. I hope you'll be proud of yourselves for sitting out the big fight.
You can't be neutral on a moving train.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Printer70 Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Got Principle?
Worse than losing to Bush would be allowing the Democratic party be "acquired" by the Republican party. If that happens, we will not just lose the battle but the war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Luckily we have Wes Clark to fall back on
Also, there is no way a gun grabbing "Massachusetts liberal" that is still supporting the war and PATRIOT will carry any states outside the Northeast. Kerry will not get the votes of voters that believe in gun rights, and he will not get the votes of voters that are horrified about the war that Kerry helped bring about.

Kerry will lead this party to defeat in November. Think about the repercussions, especially after those of us that warned you about this Bonesman, and went ahead and voted for him, are left with nothing but our rage at the party establishment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. I worry about having to fall back on him
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Indiana Democrat Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. Who do you think can win?
And why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Loren645 Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #16
92. No *bones* about it. You're right about Kerry.
He's fading fast in terms of my respect.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
54. If Dean's not the nominee then there's no 'big fight' just more of the
same sickening decline...

Dean '04...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
97. Ugh
I'm prepared for *anything*.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Touche! That's a great
observation from the heart!

The media needs to be indicted right along with bushleague and that's what a Dean Presidency would do so it's no wonder they want him gone!

I saw the ad that moveon.org wants to air over superbowl breaks and cbs won't do it!
A Truer ad was never made.

Moveon.org says the bushleague whitehouse had given cbs more power to go grow. Of course, we asking ..is that why they won't air the ad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. You have plenty of third party alternatives...
We'll miss you! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. ah, we're back to this.
So let me see if I understand you correctly. Is opposition to preventive invasion and the concomitant shredding of the UN Charter too much to ask from a Democratic nominee?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Yes we are and it really isn't that difficult
Edited on Thu Jan-22-04 06:20 PM by wyldwolf
If someone doesn't wish to vote for a certain type of candidate should he win the nomination, yet still wishes to remain in the political process, a third party is the only option.

Or, if he wishes to opt out, he can stay home.

It really is that simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. if it's simple, then answer my question
Thank you in advance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Your question is irrelevant to what the poster stated...
He stated he WOULD NOT VOTE for a candidate that held a certain position

No matter what one thinks of the eventual candidate's position, one either can vote for him or not.

If one does not, he/she can either vote third party or stay home.

It really is that simple.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
58. wrong and no need to run from my question
Calling the tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
Calling my question irrelevant doesn't make it irrelevant.

My question goes to the heart of the poster's position, which I mention here not to belabor the obvious but instead since that's what you invoke in order not to answer it, even when in the previous breath you called it "simple."

"Is opposition to preventive invasion and the concomitant shredding of the UN Charter too much to ask from a Democratic nominee?"

You can answer it or else run from it a second time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Right! And I'm addressing the theme of the thread
Remember? The first post?

I Will Not Vote for A Candidate Who Voted for War in Iraq & Patriot Act

See, there is no need to ask irrelevant questions like you did.
For those following this, here is a reminder of Iverson's question"

"Is opposition to preventive invasion and the concomitant shredding of the UN Charter too much to ask from a Democratic nominee?"

See, that is very irrelevant. Because chances are the candidate will be someone you feel did those very things.

Then it goes back to my point that you don't seem to get. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone.

There are third parties or you can stay home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Your not answering speaks louder than an answer.
And we'll just have to disagree on whether you personally are the arbiter of relevance and the gatekeeper of acceptable opinions within the Democratic Party.

Let me know when the formal call for a purge begins.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. It certainly does
It positively screams "I have no obligation to answer your leading questions"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. "leading questions" - yep, that nails it...
Avoid the core issue by diverting to irrelevancy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Printer70 Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. I agree- neither will I vote for a militarist/corporatist
Who has served as a lobbyist for corporations milking the military-industrial complex, and managed wars in defiance of the UN.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. its no big deal if you do
You live in California. If you lived in Florida I'd probably feel differently. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. I disagree with you but I wont force you to vote for the nom
You can vote anyway you like but I would encourage you to support the nominee. One thing scares me in this election most and thats Bush going back, its evident to me that all the candiates on the issues are a noticable alternative to Bush, and etc. I do NOT want to have Bush for another 4 years, the thought of a draft terrifies me so much amongst other things, you dont wanna vote for the nominee if its Kerry thats fine, but I really say the dems need every vote they can get in this election, and it would be best to support the nominee. All 6 of the men in this race are good men, I would be proud to support any of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. Not that it will matter, but
Ending the Era of John Ashcroft - Remarks by Senator Kerry 12-01-03
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_1201.html

(snip)

An America that creates a secret police power which can by its secret discretion invade the privacy of Americans and intimidate them is a far cry from what our Founders envisioned and from what we have fought to protect for 228 years. 

A country where you are visited by the authorities for thinking or voicing an unpopular idea smacks more of the Taliban than Thomas Jefferson.  Trading in our basic rights for the false facade of security is not worth it – and it is not worthy of a great nation such as America.

We are a nation of laws and liberties, not of a knock in the night.  So it is time to end the era of John Ashcroft.

That starts with replacing the Patriot Act with a new law that protects our people and our liberties at the same time.  I’ve been a District Attorney and I know that what law enforcement needs are real tools not restrictions on American’s basic rights. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Remarks of Senator John Kerry on Iraq October  09,  2002
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

(snip)

Let me be clear: I am voting to give this authority to the President for one reason and one reason only: to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new tough weapons inspections.  In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days -  to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out "tough, immediate" inspections requirements and to "act with our allies at our side" if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force.

 If he fails to do so, I will be the first to speak out.

(snip)

Let there be no doubt or confusion as to where I stand: I will support a multilateral effort to disarm Iraq by force, if we have exhausted all other options.  But I cannot - and will not - support a unilateral, US war against Iraq unless the threat is imminent and no multilateral effort is possible. 
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. I understand but don't let your principles
blind you to the danger. Our very existence is at stake. If the DLC/DNC moves us to far to the right I won't work for their candidate or donate. Abstinence might work to prevent Aids but it wont prevent fascism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Exgeneral Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. Those that think Howard Dean is out of this
are seriously mistaken.

He's got MONEY.
So does Clark.

I don't understand how Kerry's on the table flatlining Iowa paddle resuscitation is the giant momentum thing that everybody in DU seems to think it is.

It just means it gets a few more weeks to stalk the earth like the living dead campaign it is.

One second place, it's over.

fzzzzzzt!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I havent declared Dean
I think it would be best to keep your guard up if you were in NH. Kerry said so himself, I am the underdog there. He does have momentum though, thats true, is Dean dead? hell no, hes not, but is Kerry's campaign doing better than this time last week, yes and I personally think thats a great thing because Kerry always was high on my list and respect.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Its not over for Dean at all.
But ha! ha! anyways. I love your post.

"One second place and its over". For Kerry I assume you mean?

Those words may have credibility one day, who knows.

But before you throw those words out there, you might want Dean to come in above third place in a state first, okay?

It would mean a whole lot more then.

Good luck to us all!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
68. Dean put TONS of money in IA
and still only got 11%. So Dean's MONEY didn't influence OR Dean's organization, which was the largest my state has EVER known, was incompetent. Take your pick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
87. it's all media "hits" now....who can take it...sad state
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. I can respect a principled stand
I don't entirely agree with it given that up to FOUR supreme court justices could be at stake and my principles won't let me give George Bush a chance to fill them, but I can respect it.

Again, David, my FUNDAMENTAL disagreement with any Dean supporter on this issue is this: Howard Dean is a POLITICIAN. Were he in the shoes of those he castigates, I suspect he , too, would have disappointed you. He is fortunate as are you by virtue of his exclusion from the process of vetting both policies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
101. that may well be true, but as the "party realist" oracles may well relate,
that's the way the cookie crumbles. Dean wasn't in Congress when those policies came up for a vote, and others were.

Those same others didn't have the opportunity to do the wrong thing on gay civil unions in Vermont that Dean had.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. Great post David
I feel the same way
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. I'll forgive Edwards, but not Kerry
If Kerry were to win the general election, I will have a very hard time voting for him. I may just not bother. The more I find out about Clark, I'm pretty much feeling the same way.

At this point, Edwards, Dean, Kucinich, all fine by me. Hell, I might even GOTV for Lieberman - GOP-Lite that he may be, at least he's consistent...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. Why Edwards, but not Kerry?
curious, since receiving a letter from Edwards today with his stance on Iraq clearly stated in it (which i will post later when i have time to) i would like to know how you differentiate btwn the 2.

dp
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Because he's number one
Edited on Thu Jan-22-04 07:03 PM by BeatleBoot
in the polls, silly.

Kerry is number 1, baby!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Edwards isn't number one in the polls
Isn't Dean?

Kerry's main strength is his "leadership" and "experience" - and he's hasn't been able to do jack about the Bush clan for his entire career, so either he's complicit or just utterly ineffective.

Give Kerry a pension and a watch and let's try out some leaders who *can* do something. Edwards is electable, perhaps Dean is as well.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #43
94. Edwards and Kerry are both fine dems WCTV
I know you prefer Edwards, and I do like him a lot, but I think youre wrong about Kerry, hes a lot better than you think he is. Anyways if people feel this way, and I wont give you hell for it because you support DK, but I dont get why people, have this litmus test but wont support DK because of the "electable" thing. Sorry its just I like Kerry, Kucinich, and Edwards the best out of all running now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
70. your sig line says it all
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bbmykel Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. While I empathize with where you are coming from....
... I urge you to re-think your strategy when you are in a less emotional state (I know how it feels because I've been stuck in a similar emotional state!).

While it might be satisfying to make someone like Kerry pay a price for his political calculation, in the long run the price would be too high by having a second Bush term. Wouldn't it be better to use our hard-won political clout once Kerry (or whomever) is President? My main complaint with Nader was that when he had Gore over a barrel, he didn't compromise. We should not make the same mistake if it comes to that.

Also, while the chips are down (seemingly way down), Dr. Dean is far from out. Check out Sidney Blumenthal's article regarding New Hampshire's status as "king killer" and keep your chin up. Dr. Dean may surprise us yet another time.

Also, my personal recommendation(s) are: 1) minimize your DU time until you are feeling a bit more upbeat--it's become a sewer here, and, if you are too raw, it's just not healthy, and 2) go and do something positive for Dean with other Dean people. That will do wonders for your outlook. I, myself, will be on my way from CA to AZ tomorrow with two others I've met during this journey. Once in AZ we will be precinct walking for the good doctor.

Revolution is never easy! ;-)

Mike


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Who says he is in an emotional state?
What makes you say that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thanks David. Im certainly looking very seriously at this option.
Governor Dean has mentioned many times we have to stand for something. He is right.

I agree with you.

I cannot honestly see how reinforcing a broken Democratic system with various homogenized candidates who all but supported the Bush Administration by their voting records is the right answer. I dont think we have much option, but the most important thing to me is to not promote a broken system any longer. I keep wondering how different would a Kerry or an Edwards really be? Wesley Clark I would vote for, but he doesnt really stand a chance now that hes agreed to matching funds.

I am so torn about this. The election at this point and even the results do not seem accurate or to reflect what the polls had been showing up to 36 hours before, and yet I know I will be flamed for saying what my instincts tell me. Perhaps Im wrong.

What Im not wrong about, is that there are many things needing to be fixed in this country and in our Party. I dont believe any longer that simply any Democratic candidate should be voted in as president, for one reason because it will simply reinforce to us and to the Democratic party in general that ultimately it doesnt matter how we as Democrats vote, because Americans will get over the candidates voting records in time and theyll vote for
the candidate anyway, because Democrats ultimately will have to vote for him/her. Hows that for our Democratic choice? Default anyone?

John Kerry or any of the Congressional candidates I do not believe will receive this candidacy because they have earned it, but because they are the safe bet and the media and the establishment want them there.

I wish I could be more enthusiastic about this election, and yet this is the way I see it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. I will in a New York minute. Whats my other choices. Bush or Jello? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
31. Why should I care?
Join the ranks of the non-voters. It is certainly your right in this country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. Exactly
Not as if the NBD crowd has any voting clout.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
33. stick to your guns...this is still a Democracy(nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
34. For those who will not vote Dem if...
So and so isn't the candidate...

You are then giving a de facto vote to the neoconservative cabal that is running the current administration's foreign policy. If you don't like it, then you can't, in good conscience, waste your ballot.

When Bush leaves, he will take all of his PNAC buddies with him, including the architects of the Iraq fiasco. The Military Industrial Congressional Complex will still stand, but then you can focus on tearing it down. Get involved with educating your fellow citizens.

If you leave the junta in place, and don't give them a run for their money next year, the consequences will be devastating. And you can't say that you did everything you could to stop them.

You can't. Wake up. This is the most important Presidential election in your time. Don't piss away your vote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Indiana_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
35. Beautifully said.
Although I'm still undedecided, I just listened to Dean on c-span, the first time since his scream speech. He was honest and upfront. I am definitely anti-establishment, anti-IWR, anti-Patriot act. Before the Iowa caucuses, I was beginnng to think Dean was a "secret" establishment person given some of his conservative views and endorsements. Now I see differently. It was a totally rotten thing for major endorsers to withdraw their support just because they think they might look bad being behind someone the media would deem "a maniac". I believe this is about a MOVEMENT not Dean. It needs to continue.

I've always had my reservations about Kerry. I never liked the fact he voted for the IWR and Patriot Act and I never liked how he acted during the debates. It seemed fakey.

What you've said and what I've seen in the mainstream media and after hearing Dean today, I can honestly say I think Dean is sincere as well as his supporters. I would vote for Dean over Kerry anyday despite what he's done for nurses in MA (I'm an RN). I can't say I won't vote for Kerry though if Dean were out. I still feel a Democrat needs the chance to make things right after everything Bush has done. If whichever Democrat wins this nomination wins the presidency doesn't get things right this next time, I'm through with the electoral process.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'm trying to get past this myself
I just posted in GD about the increased militaty shipments going out of our Port lately- almost as much as there were in the buildup to the invasion. With each new train load of tanks and humvees that go by, I become increasingly bitter with my own party. I don't know if I'll be able to get past this by November. Every train load that goes by leaves me wondering how many more men and women will be shipped out, or whether this equipment is bound for Syria, or whether we'll be in a completely different war by Oct. It just makes me ill.

Thankfully, since I live in Texas, my vote doesn't count anyway. It won't be a very difficult decision for me to go 3rd party, if that's what I decide to do.


:hi: David. This was a great post, btw.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Indiana Democrat Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
37. Would someone please prove the following claim to me...
"the Democrats were trounced after supporting George W. Bush with his War, his Patriot Act, his airline bailouts and tax cuts for billionaires because millions of Party activists and the Left sat out the election in disgust with Democrats in Congress"


I see it repeated quite often, but I've never seen it proven.

And while we're at it, would someone please prove to me that we wouldn't have lost as much if every Democrat in congress had aligned with Dennis Kucinich?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. I can't prove it
Because it doesn't square with reality.

Once the Greens realize that the battle for the White House isn't about the political extremes, but rather the middle, then they will realize that they have no leverage. But, somehow, they think they do and we are supposed to sit there and cower to their threats of "leaving the party".

Hey, everybody's got to do what they got to do - I ain't losing sleep over this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Several things
One) If Dems had unified against Bush in October (and September) 2002 we may have averted a war. None of these pink-tutu's can claim anything against Bush's Iraq war unless they're talking about post-invasion, which they don't seem to criticize that much (except for voting against the $87 billion which they knew would pass without their support)

2) We lost the 2002 mid-terms, but Wellstone's numbers were rising before his death, and he was very vocal against the war

3) Kerry and Edwards and Lieberman represent the same old failed American policies: imperialism, globalism, neoliberalism
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Indiana Democrat Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. NONE of that is "Proof".
Again...

PROVE to me how we would have done better in the 2002 mid-terms if EVERY SINGLE Democrat had aligned with Kucinich.

That's what you guys seem to want...Now PROVE to me that we would have done better if you had gotten your way. You all run around screaming about how the "Bush Lite" Democratic policies cost us the 2002 mid-terms...Now PROVE IT. For ONCE.

(No disrespect intended, just a bit of frustration on my part).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
79. Paul Wellstone voted for the Patriot Act
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 04:56 PM by bigtree
As for the IWR:

The IWR was an attempt, by some Democrats, to avert or forestall war. You may not accept their words, but Democrats like Sen. Kerry were very vocal in their opposition to unilateral, preemptive invasion.

Indeed some were able to insert language to that effect into the bill. John Kerry among them:

In back-to-back speeches, the senators, John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, and Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, said they had come to their decisions after the administration agreed to pursue diplomatic solutions and work with the United Nations to forestall a possible invasion.

"I will vote yes," said Mr. Kerry, a possible presidential candidate in 2004, "because on the question of how best to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, the administration, including the president, recognizes that war must be our last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we should be acting in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein."

Mr. Hagel said the administration should not interpret his support or that of others as an endorsement of the use of pre-emptive force to press ideological disagreements.

"Because the stakes are so high, America must be careful with her rhetoric and mindful of how others perceive her intentions," Mr. Hagel said. "Actions in Iraq must come in the context of an American-led, multilateral approach to disarmament, not as the first case for a new American doctrine involving the pre-emptive use of force."


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/10/politics/10IRAQ.html?ex=1074920400&en=d3b91dfa96cba16c&ei=5070


Also:

In the public debate, you can't get to "Bush lied" effectively without declaring that he lied to Congress. Foisting all of the blame on the IWR let's Bush off of the hook for disregarding the provisions in it that mandated there be an imminent threat before committing forces. He also disregarded the mandate to go back and work with the U.N.

Authority to commit forces didn't originate in that legislation. That authority was already available to the president through the loopholes in the War Powers Act. The resolution references that. The president had the same authority that decades of presidents have used to commit forces without congressional approval. The president can commit forces for up to 60 days before Congress can act. It's unlikely that Congress would vote to withdraw after the forces are committed.

Bush was responsible for the nation's rush to war.I'm certain that Bush would love to blame Congress for his unilateral, preemptive invasion and occupation. I won't.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #37
59. You may never get proof.
Especially in questions that rely on something other than objective measurement, you should expect only a reasonable hypothesis.
I recommend discarding your last question. "What if" cannot be proven.

In the claim you cite, it is a matter of public record who supports or supported Bush in his various noxious policies. If you are unsure about "trounced" as a value judgement, then you and the original poster need to refine your understanding together or else use a different term. Historically, the opposition party gains seats in Congress in mid-term elections, and that did not happen here. Whatever the word choice, clearly the Democrats incurred a disadvantage.

Maybe you are challenging the last part, that the left sat out the election. I don't know how that might be supported. As far as I can tell, the left is demoralized and marginalized, even to the point of regular denigration on a progressive website, but they still vote.

I think that a lot of posters accept Harry S. Truman's warning as a reasonable hypothesis: if you give the people a choice between a Republican and a Republican, they'll choose the Republican every time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
freetempe Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
91. How can you prove something...
that never happened? Democrats lost their spine and lost the election. Who's to say what would have happened had the Dems opposed the Iraq War?

The only thing thats evident is that Dems lost their spine and now they don't control any of the branches of goverment.

What more proof do you need???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
41. Usually no one reads the posts at the bottom of a long thread...
so I won't drag this out.

David...you post really reflected alot of my feelings and I am going through what you are, but to a much smaller extent. And it kicked ass!

Basically, I look at the dilema a bit differently. Specifically, I ask myself if it is better to vote 3rd party knowing they have no chance, and likely won't even get the 5% they need to get federal matching funds, for the purpose of pulling the Dem party to the left. Should I suffer short term, for hopefully a better long term. Sooner or later, the Dems will realize that their voters are leaving them, or staying home, and will have to do something to get us back. Lately, I have started to consider this more seriously, though not to the extent you have, but I never considered this option before.

The more I think about it, the more it disgusts me to imagine voting for someone like Kerry, and then see him lose to Bush anyway. Now, that is a wasted vote, not a 3rd party vote or a protest vote (aka no vote).

I have some different reasons than you for being fed up with the system. Dean is the only candidate that makes me want to vote for him, but most of the others I at least respected because I felt they stood by their votes..but for the reasons you mentioned, I don't feel that way about Kerry.

Well, I don't want this to turn into a flame fest between Dean and Kerry, so I will stop here. If Kerry gets the nods, then congrats to his supporters and to him. As far as I am concerned he is winning it fairly...but he is not inspiring me to vote for him.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. your 3rd-party argument
what do you think will change, when, at the end of the day, the Democrat who makes it to the nomination knows you'll vote for him anyway and doesn't give a rat's ass as to why you're voting for him under protest?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Here is what I wrote..
"The more I think about it, the more it disgusts me to imagine voting for someone like Kerry, and then see him lose to Bush anyway. Now, that is a wasted vote, not a 3rd party vote or a protest vote (aka no vote)."

When I say protest vote, I mean I will not vote for the Dem but will not vote for anyone else. This way I don't support another party, but I don't help the Dem nominee out of protest for who he is. When the party does its post election analysis, they will hopefully see there are significant number of voters like me that haven't left the party but still aren't voting for the party...hopefully, the would move left to get us back in.

When I protest vote, I do NOT vote for the Dem candidate...or anyone else for that matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
47. You're a Republican
I guess Karl Rove gave you your marching orders, eh?

</sarcasm>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
48. This is vital fight for the Democratic Party.
The neoconservatives know this is a fight for one of this nation's two parties. They are determined to keep a stranglehold on both of them. We need to say no and restore the party as the Party of the People. We can do it. But we should not bow to the ideological prism of the "war on terror," and we should NOT "stand with 'President' Bush." Not at all. Why stand with barbarians and scoundrels? If Harold Ford is speaking for John Kerry, then it is serious indeed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ACPS65 Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
51. How's the view from your moral highground, Dave?
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Probably better than the view of Bush's ass so close to one's lips
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
53. I don't necessarily agree with you, but your post illustrates . . .
. . . a very important aspect of any election campaign like this.

Any presidential candidate who is currently serving as an elected representative in the House or Senate usually carries a ton of baggage into a campaign. This is because he or she has to connect to voters all across the country, and often tries to do so by pointing out all of the problems that are caused by "the people currently in power in Washington" -- but a close examination of this person's voting record will reveal that he or she has been just as much a part of the "problem" as the person in the White House that they are running against.

I suspect this is one of the reasons why Senators and Representatives are rarely successful when they run for President.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
55. But you WOULD vote for someone who supported Biden-Lugar use of force
and SUGGESTED a Patriot Act 3 days AFTER 9-11 and sounded JUST LIKE Bush while doing so.

Attacked us for our freedoms, my ass.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #55
73. Does the lack of an anwer here surprise you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
56. brother, you are one of the best here
I am hopeful that we will come together. I suggest voting for whatever Dem and spend 2005-2009 getting the Greens moving.

I voted for Nader in a safe Gore state.

I am ABB this time.

keep on,
eric
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
freetempe Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
57. Very articulate
I share the exact same thoughts as you David Z, I just wish I could articulate them as well as you do.

Great post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
60. I hear you.
The Iraq war and the patriot act are a huge issues for me. So are health care, education, and the environment.

I will say, though, that it's easy for Dr. Dean to support or not support something he didn't actually have to vote, or not vote, for. And I don't believe he's moved anyone to the left; I don't think he himself is on the left. I'm still confused about why so many think he is.

This is interesting:

The mega-wattage disdain shown against Howard Dean by the Party Establishment and the Corporate Media is truly reflective of its disdain for the activist Left within the Party. That cavalier disdain and dismissal of the activist base has steadily led to the growth of the Green Party to the great detriment of the Democratic Party. The recent San Francisco mayoral election was most revealing where Republicans actually joined with Democrats arm-in-arm to squeak out a fragile victory of Matt Gonzales, the Green Candidate.

To me, anyway, considering the mega-wattage disdain shown Dennis Kucinich. Is it possible that by supporting the more centrist Howard Dean, the activist Left within the party is part of shifting the party to the center?

I will vote for the democrat in November, even if I don't like him. Unless it is Lieberman; I hope I won't have to cross that bridge. GWB has destroyed too much to allow him 4 more years. I may, at that point, become independent again, depending on what direction the new administration takes.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
61. I'm with you David.
Kerry keeps racking up the endorsements of the likes of Zell Miller and Harold Ford Jr. The most regressive wing of the party has seen a chance to move the party yet farther to the right in the name of "centrism".

I won't be voting for any of the 3 pro-war candidates. I'm still undecided about Clark.

I urge all anti-war DU'rs to use your vote to express your disgust at the cynical "politics as usual" and simply do what's right by voting 3rd party or withholding your vote from the candidates who gave their approval to the deaths of thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
63. David, you're a treasure!
You speak for me when you say this:

"Howard Dean isn’t angry, but millions of his supporters and admirers sure are. We are not just angry with George Bush and Dick Cheney, but we are also angry with the compromisers within our Party that coddled to Bush and did his bidding at beck and call. You see, we know what they did last summer. And they know we know."

:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
66. ok
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 04:30 PM by Ficus
good for you. Thank you for sharing.

Some of us are tired of begging people to vote for the nominee. Are there any point to these NBD threads other than to say that you are taking your marbles and going home if we all don't fall in line with Dean?

Edit: grammar
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. And like I keep telling them...
They can either vote third party or opt out of the electoral process all together.

I really don't care anymore.

Good riddance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. just don't ask you about it, right? n/t
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. No, just don't ask a diversionary leading irrelevant question...
... my point is simple enough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. what question
This one:
"Is opposition to preventive invasion and the concomitant shredding of the UN Charter too much to ask from a Democratic nominee?

It depends on your beliefs. For you, perhaps. We're not all Greens. We're a coalition party. We're made up of lots of different groups and interests. If everyone takes their marbles and goes home everytime something doesn't go their way, we'd have NO party left.

Sometimes Bill Clinton won, sometimes Paul Wellstone won, sometimes Joe Lieberman wins, sometimes Howard Dean wins, but in the end, we're a lot stronger party with all of those people in it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Thank you.
I consider that a coherent answer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. no prob
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nightperson Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #71
88. Aside from Mr. Zephyr, more just in general, I say:
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 05:52 PM by secondtermdenier
good riddance to anyone who doesn't care if Bush loses or not. I have spoken out about the labyrinthine rules here that now so vigorously and foolishly monitor everything from punctuation to ideology of sources, but "we are here to beat Bush" is one crude theme I agree with that seems to get trampled on all the time. I could get in trouble for not announcing that a linked writer is "considered conservative" (are we here to educate 18 yr. olds on who George Will is or isn't?), but people can say there is no huge difference between Kerry and Bush? Just what is going on here? Anyway, NBD and Nader types are a waste of time, we're better off trying to convert Republicans who read Kevin Phillips, etc.. Besides, I can't tell the far left (or whatever these characters presently prefer to be called) from Republican impersonators or the insane these days :crazy: :silly: :shrug: .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. gotta agree...
The only difference in the far left and the far right it ideology. Their methodology and mentality are the same.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
69. bravo
Don't ever sell out your integrity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zoeyfong Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
72. You go, Boy!
Right on. I will not vote for kerry or any of the other bush-enablers. I hate to say it. I was furious at Nader voters in 2000, but if you don't stand up against a politician who has sent americans and innocent iraqis to their deaths rather than risk losing an election, when do you stand up???? Besides, as you noted, 2002 shows that war support does not increase a democrat's electability. I firmly believe that howard dean *is* the most electable democrat. And anyway, if we're going to lose, I would rather lose while standing up for what should be the principles of the democratic party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
74. Be honest
I have never, in nearly three years, ever written that I would not support any candidate should he be my Party’s nominee.

You just did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. He also said those such as him sat out the 2002 midterms and gave power...
...to the republicans. And now he says don't be surprised if they do it again. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ficus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. yet who will complain the loudest about Bush
???
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Yep! Those very people who are now threatening to again throw an election
...to the republicans.

That'll teach us a lesson!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bushclipper Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
75. are you telling me that those like you INTENTIONALLY threw the election?
are you telling me that those like you INTENTIONALLY threw the election to the republicans in 2002 and are threatening to do so again?

(shakes head in disbelief)

Well, they may get what they wish for. For as activists sat out the midterms in rage in 2002, don’t be surprised if the same thing happen in November should the Party nominate an individual who now proudly stands by his vote for War in Iraq and the Patriot Act.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
86. Congratulations....
Mr. Rove. IWR has produced the intended result.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
90. Vote histories are not the Alpha and Omega of politics.
A simple tally can never capture the whole context of Congressional legislation. Not everybody who votes yes wants war. Especially those who have seen it up-close.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
93. YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now that's what this DU-er needed tonight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
95. I dont care too much about iwr but who is gonna do what and what plan
to get out is.Sad thing is my father will be redeployed under kerry dean or bush.I felt betrayedwhen most dems sent my father off to serve in bush's holy oil war but feel more betrayed when they askhim to stay for who knows how many years for something that they say they dont like and they think is wrongand to c perpetuate american colonialism in the mid east.This is why i am a diehard kucinich fan
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. If Kerry is elected, Iraq will become a Democratic war
If Kerry is elected, Iraq will become a Democratic war and Guantanamo will be a Democratic concentration camp!

This is what will happen unless Kerry pulls the troops out, repeals PATRIOT, gives POW status to the prisoners in Guantanamo, moves them to humane facilities and allows the Red Cross to visit them.

Anything less than what I mention above, and you will quickly see us marching for peace against Kerry as we did against Bush. This begs the question: will Kerry keep the "First Amendment Zones" that Bush/Ashcroft used?

Don't let Iraq become a Democratic war!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. excatly my father will be redeployed next year under kerry dean clark or
bush
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
98. Okay. We each have our own decision to make. Democracy in action.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
100. This is a principled stance
and one I support.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC