Why does Clark assume I grew up with the same values as he did?

[baby_bear]

Well, I should temper that by saying that I am watching him speak to an American Legion audience. So maybe he can be excused for it. But he just said that he grew up with the same values that he assumed the people he is talking to grew up with: family, faith and patriotism.

I personally find it offensive. My parents were divorced, but were devout Democrats who felt that challenging the establishment (versus blind patriotism such as "love it or leave it" back then) was inherent to critical thinking. And as far as religion, I was taught that whatever one believes, it should be respected. My father was a Unitarian, which rejects dogma.

I won't go on, except to say that I don't like the tone of Clark's remarks. Sounds like pandering to me. Maybe it works on the audience he is in front of right now. It stinks to me.

s_m

P.S. I am not committed to any of the Dems yet; trying to keep an open mind.

[boxster]

1. You answered your own question.

He was obviously referring to the people to whom he was speaking.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

2. So Don't Vote for Him

But just so you know the facts, one major theme of Clark's campaign has been the right to dissent. Another theme has been religious freedom and diversity.

DTH

[Piperay]

3. He was speaking to Legionaries and

those are most likely THEIR values.

[Harrison82]

4. Pandering?

Are you seriously criticizing him for valuing family, faith and patriotism? Yes it does work in front of an American Legion audience but I hardly think you could call it pandering. The man is a four-starred general, I suspect those are indeed his values.

[newyawker99]

35. Hi Harrison82!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[spooky3]

5. You are certainly not alone.

And you raise an excellent point.

There are many people from families like yours or who now are living a life where they share the views you have, but maybe not enough yet to win elections if they all voted as a bloc.

I believe (sadly), right now, it's necessary for Dems to say those things (especially with certain audiences), unfortunately, because they have to counter the Repug phony spin machine. And, while you would be sensitive to the fact that not everyone is like you, not everyone is similarly tolerant. So most people like to hear that the candidate is for family, faith and patriotism, because it is what they believe. It's sad, but I don't hold it against the candidate unless he has a voting record showing he is not tolerant or can't separate church and state.

[sangha]

6. You want him to assume your values are different?

.

[MIMStigator]

7. sounds like you're plenty pro family and patriot

what's the problem?

[SahaleArm]

8. Something wrong with Jobs, Health Care, Education, and Environment? n/t

[poskonig]

9. I tend to agree.

My faith, family, and patriotism are not the business of any politician. Most politicians talk like this to a certain extent unfortunately.

[teevee99]

11. correction****

allllllll politicians talk like this, it's how they get elected.

[KittyWampus]

12. You Don't Care About Your Family Or The People Around You?

That is screwed up.

[poskonig]

14. My family is fine.

I don't need swarms of redneck hillbillies obsessed with faith and patriotism messing up something good. My life really is none of their business.

[KittyWampus]

15. What Did Clark Say That Even Remotely Implied

that you had to tow some particular line of thought.

Feel free to interpret the words Values Family and Patriotism as you will.

Clark is NOT dogmatic.

But WHATEVER type of family you have... it would be weird if it wasn't important to you.

Whatever you VALUE personally, our society is predicated on the notion of the COMMON GOOD.

Honestly, you are reading your own prejudice into what the man said.

He is not demanding allliegance to any particular vein of thought or expression.

[baby_bear]

18. I guess you did not read my original thread message

I felt that the General was in effect assuming that his audience subscribed to a certain mentality.

If you read my original thread and get back to me, this could well be an interesting conversation.

Seems to me you are just trying to stultify conversation. Hope I am wrong.

s_m

[QC]

19. Redneck hillbillies?

That's a hateful pair of slurs. Besides, do you really think that poor people out in the country are running the nation's political establishment? Last time I checked, the political and corporate establishments were made up mostly of rich people. Why not aim some of your venom at them?

[OKNancy]

32. Yeah..this is why Democrats are losing

stereotype much?

[Renew Deal]

10. The room was full of vets and people over 40.

He's not talking to kids. Those are his peers.

[KittyWampus]

13. Do You Care About Your Family, Your Neighbors, Your Environment?

What you care about is what you VALUE.

It is that simple. Clark is NOT dogmatic in any way, shape or form.

He is talking about the COMMON GOOD which this country was founded to recognize and protect.

People need to get over their hang ups about the word VALUES and PATRIOTISM.

Are we really that self centered in America?

Do we really hate families that much?

Do we resent our neighbors so totally?

Damn, this is just sad.

[arewethereyet]

16. it highlights his lack of connection to ordinary people

its not the same commanding people from all over. If you have command you literally have the right to shoot your own man (have to have a damn good reason of course, but there are clearly defined reasons). Its not the same as asking them to give you something (a vote) as it is to tell them what to do.

There is no way he can represent, only command. And picture how COngress would react to that ?

[The Magistrate]

17. Do You Seriously Suppose, Sir

The ordinary people of our country are not moved by family, faith, and patriotism?

These are ordinary as dirt, Sir, as common as automobiles in the streets. It is a quite exceptional person who has shed all vestiges of these things, or who thinks them whole-heartedly to be bad and wrong things. In any statistical sense, such a person is hardly ordinary, and being out of step with such a one is far from being out of step with ordinary people....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[arewethereyet]

23. nice bit of oratory

but exactly how doe sit relate to ordinary people trying to live their lives in the real world ?

Interesting philosophy is nice if you're sipping brandy at the Officer's Club but if you said that to a group of third shift workers over at the polymer plant you would get dazed silence or laughter or more likely a 'what the *&%& did you say ?'

This is an excellent example of my point. Thanks.

Look I admire that General Clark was a Rhodes Scholar and understands philosophy et al but even Howard Dean was able to look around the silver spoon in his mouth to see Vermont voters and understand their concerns. He had to or he would not get elected.

[The Magistrate]

28. Try And Get Out More, Sir

It is a big world, full of all sorts of people, who are much deeper and more complex than you may suspect....

[Torgo4]

33. Never Been In The Military--Let Alone Infantry Have you Sparky?

Interesting philosophy is nice if you're sipping brandy at the Officer's Club

Nor have you been to Airborne or Ranger school. Clark has not only Executive experience up & down the chain of command, but he's had his rear end chewed off by experts (both local and international), starting at West Point.

I'll take his life experiences, starting with little or nothing and working his way to the top of the military meritocracy. I'm just impressed that he is as perceptive about the plights of others. Seems he has an empathy for the human condition that Republicans, conservatives in particular lack.

Prepare to carved, sliced, & diced Dubya-Chump...

[Kat45]

20. Clark has repeatedly said patriotism is not waving the flag, and

that dissent is a big part of patriotism. Caring about your country is patriotic, and if you care about your country, you have not only the right but the obligation to dissent when you see something wrong.

Faith has nothing to do with dogma. For some people, their faith is based on dogma, for many others, it is not. Clark himself has been associated with churches of several denominations.

And when he talks about "family values," he says that jobs and being able to support one's family are important components of family values, and that this admin has not been advocating these.

He's taking the words family, faith, and patriotism back from the repubs who have misappropriated and redefined them.

Edited to add: I'm sure these words resonated with the audience of veterans to whom he was speaking.

[lurk_no_more]

21. Link please, I'd like to read it or hear it for myself

Thank you!


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Jerseycoa]

25. It was on C-span

It will probably be repeated. It was actually a very good talk he gave to a large crowd.

[HuckleB]

22. I think you have to look much closer upon any individual who makes...

such a statement. In Clark's case, there is a great deal behind it. Most of it positive, IMHO. This is the campaign trail, and every candidate is going to make statements that are basically meaningless unless you know what they really stand for. To take them out of context and put one's own meaning upon them is not going to help anyone understand the candidates.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Clark's comments. His respect for the varied faiths of others is clear. His deep sense of patriotism as something far more than flag waving is obvious.

By the way, I am a Dean supporter.

[Jerseycoa]

24. I just watched it

I'm sorry you were offended. The thing about Clark, when he talks about family values, and I am very much of your parents' anti-establishment milieu, is he brings issues like caring for the environment into the argument, indeed identifies this as a "family value." He speaks about jobs creation so that families can afford to send their kids to college as a "family value." He speaks of tax reform so that people can actually have something to save at the end of the month as a "family value." He says that a true prescription drug plan for seniors is a "family value." What he is doing is inverting and subverting the Republican line, not promoting it.

When you think of what has been lost in this country through the Republican transfer of wealth to the top and away from working people, Clark's stance that "family values" has a democratic translation and is actually subversive. And there is nothing blind about the type of patriotism he espouses, but it is deeply critical and thoughtful. I hope you will give him a fresh look.

[QC]

26. The biggest mistake the Democratic Party ever made was

letting the Republicans claim a monopoly on things like faith, the flag, family, etc.

I'm glad to see someone challenging them on their theft.

[BootinUp]

27. Not really new

Don't get me wrong, Clark's style makes it seem new, but this is Clinton speak. And it does play well. The naysayers are still doubting that a General can win the democratic nomination.

[Loren645]

29. I think you're the one making assumptions.

He was just introducing himself so his audience would
know him as a person. And he was explaining his policies
so the audience would know him as a candidate.

[Printer70]

30. Clark: appealing to lowest common denominator

"New American Patriotism"? Clark can wave the flag all he wants but ultimately he is going to explain what Michael Moore (his endorser) described in Bowling for Columbine- Clark's Kosovo bombing of an elementary school and hospital, along with the deaths of countless innocents in Kosovo. It's all in the documentary. Would Clark care to comment?

[The Magistrate]

34. Honestly, Mr. Printer

"Lowest common denominator"?

What, Sir, do you think an election is, but an exercise in gathering the greatest possible number of persons into a group that will identify with a candidate? Do you imagine this can be done successfully without appeal to "the lowest common denominator"? Do you think ordinary folks are moved to your side by expressions of contempt for them, and for their priorities and beliefs?

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BAATARDS!"

[Printer70]

36. The issues are important

And it's important we talk about them. How can Moore endorse the guy behind the Kosovo war when he characterized the inhumanity of those bombings in "Bowling". What is going on behind the scenes?

[The Magistrate]

37. 'Issues' Are Of Little Importance, Fellow

Politics is an exercise in group identity: success is achieved in it by rallying the greatest number of people to identify admiringly with a candidate for office. Most people are aware they do not know too much about most things, though they are sure they would do the right thing if they did, and so they select a candidate they feel is pretty much like themselves, and trust therefore to do about what they would do themselves, if they were in office, and fully aprised on the ins and outs of the thing being decided.

"An election differs from a civil war only as the bloodless surrender of a force outnumbered in the field differs from Waterloo."

[OKNancy]

31. I think you are just trying to find something wrong

and you want to be offended.

You say your parents were divorced. They were still your family, and they still, I hope loved you and wanted the best for you. Not for one minute has Clark ever said anything negative about single family homes. He lived in one from the time he was four until aged ten.

Clark has never said anything remotely like "love it or leave it"
For example, he openly backed Michael Moore long before he was running for President.

Your weakest point is the part about growing up with a Unitarian. I'm a Unitarian and although we reject dogma, we also are the biggest do-gooder patriots around. We are the kind of patriots Clark is talking about. Unitarians are the first ones to pickup litter, and clean up the environment, we teach at-risk kids how to read, we do all those boy-scout-like activities to lift our community.

Now, if you are a lot younger than Clark, perhaps you don't know what it was like to be inspired by a President like John Kennedy, or be motivated to do really great things. But there was a time like that, and lots of people no matter their religion or politics felt that way.

Clark, I think, is trying to capture a bit of that --"ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"

(People nowdays just are so damn self-centered.- not Clark's message, but mine)