Anybody else ashamed that the Dems couldn't keep our team together

[saracat]

for the vote against Gonzales? Is anyone else ashamed that Henry Cisneros endorsed Gonzales? I was a staunch Dem until today. I hope I can prevent myself from bolting but this is absolutely disgraceful.

[electropop]

1. What was the score?

And which pseudo-Dems do we need to topple in primary challenges?

[saracat]

3. Not done yet. But Lieberman and Salazar defected.

[Just Me]

4. I'm ashamed of nothing. These two should be ashamed of themselves.

Those two chose poorly!!!

SHAME ON THEM!!!!

[Nite Owl]

2. Ashamed yes, but not really

surprised anymore. I'm staying if Dean get the chair to see if he can change things, I'll give him a fair chance but no guarantees.

[davidwparker]

8. I hope things change, but if not go here

http://gp.org

Do yourself a favor. Should the Dems run a candidate that's worthy of your vote, then vote for him/her.

Like you, I'm hanging out for Dean. A straight line vote against Gonzales was obvious.

When one of ours gets caught and we see feces covering him/her with dog bite marks and whatever else, then the defecting Dems are just as guilty as the Repugs.

[saracat]

11. I support Dean for chair but he wasn't liberal enough for me to vote

him for Prez. He is the best of the lot for chair but I fear his conservative side will surface. If that is the case, and he tries to appease or bring the party center, contrary to what I think he is saying, I will be gone.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

19. Nonsense, but things like this ARE pushing me away.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

31. Good for you. People like Lieberman and Salazar representing my party

bother me. I wouldn't want Hitler representing me either if it was thought expedient. I reserve the right to protest.

[ClassWarrior]

37. It bothers me too.

That's why I've joined my county party. I figure I'm sure not going to change it by leaving it. <laughing and shaking my head>

And you can protest all you want. But considering you're ready to abandon the party, your protest doesn't have much credibility.

NGU.

[saracat]

54. You 've joined your counrty party? Whoopee. I have been a Party officer fo

In two states.My credibility is as good ,if not better than most.I have every right to be upset at the conduct of this leadership and these two Senators. I have been working very hard to bring this party back to the people as opposed to the DLC. And I don't like not only my efforts but the efforts of all those Dems who work for Human Rights to be made to look bad by these people.

[Just Me]

59. Would you characterize yourself as a UNITER or a DIVIDER?

Get a grip.

[ClassWarrior]

60. I'm talking about the Democratic Party.

NGU.

[saracat]

69. I was too. I am a Democratic Party officer, and I am entitled to my

opinion. I don't like my work and the work of other hard working dems being trashed by a few, And I don't like the leadership allowing it to happen. I am sorry somedon't feel that I have as much right to my opinion others. I am merely expressing my freedom of speech regading MY party . As Teddy Roosevelt said about criticism of the presidency, I think I have an obligation to criticise if I perceive wrong. If we never acknowledge our mistakes, we can't learn from them.

[ClassWarrior]

75. Sometimes the only way to win an argument is to distort your opponent's...

...position. With tactics like that, who needs Freeperville?

NGU.

[QC]

93. If it weren't for straw man arguments, some people here

would have absolutely nothing whatsoever to say.

[Just Me]

30. Fine. So, your post seeks to achieve pushing everyone away?

That appears to be your objective,...to push everyone away from the Democrats.

Is that what you want? Is that what you seek to achieve?

If not, what is it you seek to achieve with a post such as this one?

[saracat]

36. My post is meant to kick the Dems in the ass for not being proactive in

defense of Human Rights! Maybe some of us will contact our representatives and complain and hopefully get some of these people to change their behavior or vote them out.

[ClassWarrior]

52. Yeah, I'm sure Joe-mentum is punching up Explorer right now...

...to see what saracat thinks of all this.

NGU.

[saracat]

So because Joe doesn't read DU I shouldn't post a protest?

[ClassWarrior]

58. Which brings me to my point...

Since Joe-mentum doesn't read DU, what exactly is the POINT of your protest? What do you wish to accomplish by trashing the whole party for the actions of a few?

NGU.

[Just Me]

55. You're kicking the whole party in the ass for two lost votes. Why?

Why are you broad-brush beating on everyone?

Why are you posting an OBVIOUS anti-Democrat post?

Why are you failing to acknowledge the 96% of the Democrats who are OPPOSING Gonzales?

Why are you painting such an inaccurate and inflamatory post?

What is your objective or your intention,...to tear everyone down and deliver shame to everyone because of two disappointing individuals?

What is up?

[saracat]

62. I am not blasting the entire Party. I applaud those that voted against

this nomination. But we should not even have two or theree votes in support of this man.Our minority Leader should not have allowed any of our Dems to get away with this. His job is to keep our guys in line for important votes like this.As I said, even two votes for torture is too much. Maybe I have to high expectations for my party , but I expect every single Dem to stand for Human Rights.

[Just Me]

65. Read your original post. Why aren't you on the phone to blast the two,...

,...who have disappointed you rather than posting a "shame on the whole party" when 96% of the party stuck together?

Why don't you get on the phone, right now, and raise hell with those two?

I sincerely believe it would be a far better use of your energy rather than thumping on EVERYONE and dragging us ALL down.

[saracat]

71. What makes you think I haven't?

And how am I dragging EVERYONE down? The Democratic Party isn't allowed to be criticized? I don't think it serves anyone's interst to be a cheerleader when one observes a wrong.

[Just Me]

76. How are you helping,...anyone?

You are spending a great deal more effort with a big club than you are advocating a bit inspiration.

You're not helping me, at all.

Time for me to stop spending my energy on such negative-gravitating perspective which does nothing to help unite or inspire.

See Ya'

[saracat]

78. Ah! disagreement is negative! Gotcha!

[ClassWarrior]

80. Sometimes the only way to win an argument is to distort your opponent's...

...position. With tactics like that, who needs Freeperville?

NGU.

[saracat]

81. I hear Johnny one note ! It seems I have heard this song before.

La! la! La!

[davidwparker]

89. I'm not from Vermont, but I was thinking calling Dean

moderate in a state that is very liberal is like being liberal elsewhere.

We'll see how he does. I like him because he is outspoken and has the backbone thing. He was always impressive during the primaries. But, as they say the proof is in the pudding.

I was also impressed by David Cobb during the Ohio recount when you know who had other priorities. David Cobb tells it like it is too.

[John_H]

82. Dean is a Dem. He thinks Greens are idiots.

His views have nothing in common with the green platform of nationalizing the the fortune 500, income capping, and dictating what people can buy and what they can't.

[davidwparker]

88. I've not seen that in the platform. Could you provide me a link

to that. Also, to Dean calling them idiots.

[saracat]

5. Now I read we didn't even keep it together on SSI! Ben nelson bolted.

[Just Me]

7. Well, in that case, SHAME ON NELSON!!!! eom

[Walt Starr]

26. That's the one that really disappoints me

If we can't keep it together on SS, it's over. We are a Fascist Nation and nothing will ever change it.

[Teaser]

77. Not Yet he hasn't.

He's just appearing with the president so far.

[Eloriel]

6. Saddened, not ashamed

As someone else said: it's just not a surprise anymore.

[pmbryant]

9. The only Dems I am ashamed of...

are those threatening to "bolt".

--Peter

[saracat]

14. So you AREN"T ashamed of Lieberman? How nice. I suppose it is okay to have

to have an opinion endorsing torture.

[RaulVB]

20. Well, "it doesn't hurt that much..." (n/t)

[ClassWarrior]

27. He said he's ashamed of Dems who "bolt."

Joe-mentum bolted from the party a long time ago.

NGU.

[housewolf]

10. No, I am proud...

I am disappointed that Lieberman & Salazar have decided to stand and support Gonzales, it is not what I would have wished.

But I am quite proud that the Democrats in Congress ALLOW them to stand and say their piece, something the repubs would never allow. The concept that all members must adhere to a party-line is something I strongly dislike and I am happy to see independent, strong voices in the congress even if it is in regards to an issue I am opposed to.

I wish they had decided differently, but the Dems really gain little-to-no political capital by trying to force a party-line vote in this matter. Gonzales will win his approval whether all Dems vote against him or not. So when a particular vote does not affect the outcome, I approve of senators voting their choice.

[RaulVB]

21. And they have chosen torture over human rights (n/t)

[Zhade]

28. Doesn't it cross the line when they vote yes on someone who broke the law?

I'm all for what you say about giving them a chance to speak their minds, but they're voting on a guy who broke international law by endorsing and condoning torture and ways to do it.

Isn't there a redline somewhere?

[housewolf]

56. I am not defending their vote but their ability to vote as they choose...

but simply saying that I am proud that the Dems are not running such a tight machine that every vote has to be a party-line vote. There will be times when every vote matters and I hope and trust that the Dems will be able to hold a strong line. But there is no gain in this case for the Dems to force everyone to vote a specific way.

The questions was whether I/we are ashamed of the Dems for not holding a party-line vote together and my answer was that, in this case, Gonzales' confirmation is assurred so it is pointless, in my opinion, to try to force votes from Dems who choose to vote a different way.

I am disappointed in Lieberman & Salazar that they choose to support Gonzales. They are the ones who should be ashamed of their votes. I am not ashamed that the Dems are not forcing them to vote a different way. I am proud that the Dems are not requiring a manditory party-line vote on this issue.

That says nothing about what I think/feel about Gonzales.

[Zhade]

64. Good explanation, I concur.

It simply means Lieberman and Salazar must be replaced - unless anyone seriously thinks their constituents advocate torture and the breaking of international law.

They have the right to vote for Gonzalez, but they must also face the likely backlash for doing so.

[housewolf]

67. Exactly! Thank you.... n/t

[saracat]

38. Wow. Totrure is a choice?

Who knew? I thought it was a violation of basic human decency but I didn't realize we had an option.

[ClassWarrior]

53. Sometimes the only way to win an argument is to distort your opponent's...

...position. With tactics like that, who needs Freeperville?

NGU.

[housewolf]

61. No... VOTING is a choice

I am glad that the Dems are not running a tight party-line vote on an issue that they cannot win. Gonzales is going to be confirmed, regardless of whether 1 dem votes against him or 45. In the long run, the Dems would lose by forcing a party-line vote on an issue they have not a prayer of affecting the outcome of. They need to save that kind of effort for something where it makes a difference.

[ClassWarrior]

12. Of course, another thread bashing ALL the Dems for the sins of a few.

Disgraceful.

NGU.

[saracat]

25. What I am bashing is the disgracefulness of our leadership not

being able to unite to make a statement against torture! If we can't get together on this , what can we unite on? Please . Dosen't anyone think this was an important statement to make? I applaud those Senators that stood against this.I despise and have NO respect for those that support Gonzales for their own political expediency.

[ClassWarrior]

33. If you think this is such an important statement to make, then...

...why aren't you celebrating the ones who made it?

NGU.

[saracat]

47. Read my post above where I salute those who do.

But it isn't enough.Anyone voting for this confirmation is a disgrace. For Democrats it is a double disgrace because they betray their Party as well as Human Rights. The Fact that any Dem would put political expediency above human righta and the constitution is horrendous.

[ClassWarrior]

57. I did. It's buried in the middle of a thread casting shame on all Dems.

Are you one of those people who, if Jesus came down to Earth right now, would say, "Why the fuck didn't you bring jelly doughnuts?"

Cuz it seems like it's never "enough."

NGU.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

17. And I don't care it they do. Facts are facts.

Am I supposed to censor my opinion in fear of what freeps might say?

[Just Me]

68. The FACTS are that 96% of the Dems stuck together. No shame there.

Why should we be ashamed of that?

Why should you be ashamed of that?

Why would you form an opinion that we should be ashamed based on THE FACTS that the Dems DID stick together with the exception of two members who may simply be wrong for the party?

[Adelante]

85. Pretty amazing, really

When you think of the broad range of constituencies represented and belief systems. I feel proud of them today, which I must say I did not the day of the election confirmation. So this is good.

[RaulVB]

18. Oh, so you think they will not come up with it by themselves?

The Democratic Party should stop feeding them the talking points.

[Just Me]

32. Yes. People SHOULD STOP feeding them such "talking points". Agree.n/t

[ClassWarrior]

51. No, most Freeps are too damn knuckle-dragging stupid...

...to string two words together, much less a sophisticated argument.

NGU.

[Old and In the Way]

15. How are the Republican RubberStampers holding up?

Any of them voting their conscience or are they all being faithful Party members to their Supreme Leader Who Is Never Wrong About Anything?

The true Party of Cowards if there ever was one.

[rockymountaindem]

22. 43 out of 45 (including Jeffords) is 96%

If we got 96% of the team to go our way, I'd say that's pretty good. Lambasting everyone on the basis of 4% of the group isn't worthy of a real debate.

[ClassWarrior]

24. It was ONLY Liebermann and Salazar??

Wow, given the level of drama in the original post, I thought it had to be at least a dozen. <LMAO>

NGU.

[saracat]

29. So far. Voting isn't finished.

But yes, only two heartily endorsed torture. No biggie.

[Idioteque]

35. Bill Nelson voting yes :(

...according to somebody on DailyKos.

[Guaranteed]

34. Only TWO didn't vote AGAINST him????

DON'T FUCKING BITCH. That is UNBELIEVABLE in a confirmation vote. Amazing.

[RaulVB]

40. We are talking about torture, yeah, no biggie

I hear you...

[Guaranteed]

42. We're talking about a cabinet confirmation.

40+ against? Sorry, there's nothing to complain about. You should be jumping for JOY.

[Walt Starr]

44. No vote has happened yet

Leiberman and Salazar are definite YES votes, but we don't know about a lot of Democrats.

[Guaranteed]

46. I'm just going off of Rocky's post. nt

[ClassWarrior]

48. Sometimes the only way to win an argument is to distort your opponent's...

...position. With tactics like that, who needs Freeperville?

NGU.

[Walt Starr]

43. Um, there has been no vote yet

We only know for absolute certain that Salazar and Lieberman are definite YES votes for torture.

Of course, it goes without saying that all 55 Republican votes are YES for torture.

[LittleClarkie]

70. I know. Historic even.

We didn't even get this for Condi. It just keeps building and building.

I hope Reid can get everyone lined up for SSI.

I like Harry. Give em hell!

[genius]

39. Yes. And if we have 41,it will have been Reid's decision to allow torture

He gave up the filibuster.

[Pepperbelly]

45. but his parents were migrant farm workers!!!!!

[genius]

63. Hitler had a tough childhood too.

[Pepperbelly]

73. sense of humor not your strong point? nt

[ClassWarrior]

79. ROTFLMAO.

NGU.

[WI_DEM]

41. let's see two defections isn't that bad

[Walt Starr]

49. Two defectors SO FAR

and already at least one defector on Social Security, and probably the two defectors on this one will defect on Social Security as well.

[saracat]

72. Nelson just voted aye. Pig.

And Landriuex voted aye!

[paulk]

83. Salazar will not defect on social security

he's very strongly on the record as opposing privitization.

[Walt Starr]

86. He's folded three out of three votes to date

I don't trust him not to fold again.

I think Colorado may be looking at the second Ben Nighthorse Campbell.

[paulk]

87. he had never said how he was going to vote on the nominations

he has publically stated - for the record - that he will oppose Bush's privitization of SS.

there's a difference.

[Hippo_Tron]

92. The guy's been in the Senate for all of five minutes

And he was Colorado's attorney general as a Democrat. If he wanted to be a Republican he would've run as a Republican in the OPEN senate race this year.

[saracat]

50. Three with Nelson

[saracat]

74. We have thirty six ayes. We lost a lot more than two!

[Generator]

66. We have a team??????!!!

Notify me please when they get that memo.

[BlueInRed]

84. I think for these types to change, we're going to have to make it

so that it's more politically tenable to vote with us than against us. Which ever way they think will save their hides is they way these swingers will votes, IMO. If it becomes politically untenable for them to abandon us, then they won't.

That's what I'm really hoping for from the changes at the DNC. I hope Howard shakes it up enough to change the competing pressures on these folks.

[UmpaLumpa]

90. Doesn't suprise me at all. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

91. Gonzales was another trap for Democrats, Bill Nelson in particular

Nelson would've been eaten alive by the Repuke smear machine who would've portrayed him as anti-hispanic in Southern Florida if he had voted NAY on gonzales. I know that it's hard to accept democrats who vote like this for political gain, but I look at it this way...

If Democrats had controlled the Senate, Gonzales very likely wouldn't have made it onto the Senate floor for a vote in the first place. We need people like Bill Nelson to control the senate.