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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:22 PM
Original message
Do any of Dean's supporters know what a policy is?
Help me out here. None appear to have watched the presidential debates or have any idea what Kerry's position on any number of issues, including but not exclusively Iraq, is or was. None seem to have followed the Senate voting on Rice. None seem to be aware of the speeches Kennedy has been making crticizing the war, calling for immediate U.S. withdrawal, and denouncing Bush privatization plans for Social Security and Medicare.

Where DO you guys get your information, anyway?
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, boy. That statement may just be a BIT overly broad.
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:55 PM by Pirate Smile
Get the popcorn or run and hide.

How can this be constructive in any way?

If you a problem with specific posters, please limit your comments to them or else you are just continuing to cause divisions, unless that is your goal.

edit to add - THIS IS JUST FUCKING STUPID!!!
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Please Enlighten Us, what is Kerrys on Iraq?
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. "Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time." Could it be any clearer? n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I voted for the 87 billion before I voted against it
can it be any less clear?
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. So tell me, when and where did Kerry make that statement?
And what does Rove mud have to do with policy?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. On tape, in Iowa
no I don't recall the exact date or forum but the tape was played endlessly.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. The point is, an out-of-context remark (which I never heard) doesn't mean
shit. It's a campaign smear, not a policy. Why buy into Rove's spin machine?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. I take it you neither live in a swing state
nor watch any TV news. The ads with him on tape saying it were run incessently. In addition, during the first debate, you know the things I supposedly didn't watch, Kerry was specificly asked about the remark and said that he was guilty of speaking confusingly about his position on Iraq while Bush was guilty of botching it. If he hadn't said the remark I think he might have said that.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. From Factcheck.org:
The $87 Billion

The final quote is the one in which the Bush ad takes its best shot. Kerry not only said it, he did it. He voted for an alternative resolution that would have approved $87 billion in emergency funds for troops and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan, but it was conditioned on repealing much of Bush's tax cuts, and it failed 57-42. On the key, up-or-down vote on the $87 billion itself Kerry was only one of 12 senators in opposition, along with the man who later become his running mate, Sen. John Edwards.

It's not only Bush who criticizes Kerry's inconsistency on that vote. Rival Democratic presidential candidate Joe Lieberman, a senator who also hadvoted to giveBush authority to use force in Iraq, said: "I don't know how John Kerry and John Edwards can say they supported the war but then opposed the funding for the troops who went to fight the war that the resolution that they supported authorized." Liebermanspoke at a candidate debate in Detroit Oct. 26, 2003.

Another Democratic rival who criticized Kerry for that vote was Rep. Dick Gephardt, who said beforehand that he would support the $87 billion "because it is the only responsible course of action. We must not send an ambiguous message to our troops, and we must not send an uncertain message to our friends and enemies in Iraq."

http://www.factcheck.org/article269.html
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. isn't Factcheck the one associated with one of the Universities in PN? nt
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 PM by Pepperbelly
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. See above, and you still haven't shown a source for the remark. n/t
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:41 PM
Original message
I believe factcheck is part of Annenberg but what they left out was
that the vote FOR had a proviso to delay tax cuts to pay for the 87 billion but Bush threatened to veto it...so he voted against it after the proviso was removed...I only wish he had SAID THAT in the debates instead of what he said.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. btw, I think Annenberg has THEIR facts wrong.
The issue in the first place was not the tax cuts so much as it was outright grant to Iraq vs. a loan. Bush wanted grants, Kerry loans.

I note that factcheck left that fact out.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
55. Here's where he said it from John Kerry's own site:
Quote #6 Out of Context

John Kerry: I actually did vote for the 87 billion dollars before I voted against it.

Quote #6 In Context

Kerry Was Talking About How To Pay For The Bill In A Fiscally Responsible Way

I actually did vote for his $87 billion, before I voted against it," he told a group of veterans at a noontime appearance at Marshall University. He went on to explain that he preliminarily backed the request, so long as it was financed not by deficit spending but with a tax surcharge on the wealthy that Bush opposed.

http://blog.johnkerry.com/rapidresponse/archives/002948...
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. horseshit gop spin quote and if you don't know it, you should.
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:30 PM by Pepperbelly
Bush wanted it his way, with the money to Iraq as an outright grant. Kerry wanted it to be a loan. Kerry voted for the loan but not the grant. Bush planned to veto the loan but not the grant.

So come on, now. Did you know the context?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. actually Kerry provided different rationales for this
which isn't my fault. When he originally voted against it he never talked about having voted for it first. Then, he used the rationale you state here, then he decided that he had problems with how the war was being conducted and that is why he voted no.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. so your problem is that he changed from the reasons I cited to
something else?

Okay.

That is problematic.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. He never was consistent
If the war was going well he would say things like Dean was unfit to be President since he said we weren't better off with Saddam captured. If the war started going poorly then he would say how opposed he was to it. No wonder people had no idea what he actually thought. The press did him wrong in many regards but on Iraq nearly all of his grief was self inflicted.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Nice... Use the Rovian Spin!
Keep it up... that's 90% of the problem we are facing right now.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Oh he did make that statement, was it before or after he said
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:31 PM by bahrbearian
knowing what he knows now he wouldn't do anything different?
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Well actually it could....
Wrong war - OK. A war can be for a good cause or a bad one.

Wrong place - Here I have some trouble. Is Iraq the wrong place to invade? Should we invade someone else? I'm not sure.

Wrong Time - Was it too soon to attack? Should we have attacked earlier? What is the wrong time for a war?

Help me out here cuz I voted for the guy and I deserve to know.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Evidently you never took the time to go read it on JohnKerry.com
Winning The Peace In Iraq
More than a year ago, President Bush stood on an aircraft carrier under a banner that proclaimed "mission accomplished." But today we know that the mission is not accomplished, hostilities have not ended and our men and women in uniform stand almost alone with the target squarely on their backs.

Our military performed brilliantly in the war's first mission: ending the regime of Saddam Hussein. Today, Americans share a desire for Iraqis to live with the blessings of democracy and security. John Kerry and John Edwards have a practical plan to win the peace in Iraq and bring our troops home.

We must change course in Iraq. Having gone to war, we cannot afford to fail at peace. The United States must take immediate measures to prevent Iraq from becoming a failed state that inevitably would become a haven for terrorists and a destabilizing force in the Middle East.

John Kerry and John Edwards will make the creation of a stable and secure environment in Iraq our immediate priority in order to lay the foundations for sustainable democracy. That is the right way to get the job done and bring our troops home. John Kerry and John Edwards believe the following principles should guide American policy in Iraq right now and that if these steps are not taken, options in the future will become more limited. This needs to be an urgent agenda to:

More: http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/national_security/iraq....
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. " Who can ask a soldier to be the Last one to Die for and unjust cause"
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. That's nice... you know a Kerry quote
But have you read his entire Iraq plan? I doubt it if this is what you reply with.
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
60. Yeah, I bought into all this yada yada too and although much of it
was contradictory to the way I really felt about the war, I supported Kerry with all of my heart.

On hindsight, he WAS too wish-washy on many issues.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Gotta tell ya, marcologico --
-- I really have a lot of respect for Howard Dean.

He can be my physician any day.

He can be my party's Chair any day.

He can be my president any day.

As for policy, I dip my toe in it from time to time, yes.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Respect is fine but it won't save Social Security and it won't get us out
of Iraq. Ditto medical knowledge.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Social security is a LEGISLATIVE concern and Dr. Dean --
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 PM by Old Crusoe
-- is not in the U.S. Congress. You need to aim for the right target.

Medical knowledge per se doesn't "save" social security, but knowledge of how the medical industry works just might.

Dean and Dean's supporters that I've met and talked with seem quite knowledgeable to me. People I can learn things from.

You seem to be on an anti-Howard Dean kick this afternoon.

How come?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
63. he's been on an anti dean kick since he showed up here as NicholasJ
during the primaries. His hatred seems to grow stronger everyday.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Kerry ran on raising the payroll tax **cap**. Gore ran on a "lockbox".
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:37 PM by w4rma
The policy to save social security in about 40 years is already there and out in the open. So, what is your problem with these policy proposals, marcologico?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'll tell you what
Pick five specific questions about either Dean's or Kerry's position on well known important issues (ie Iraq, civil rights, the budget, etc) and if I can't answer at least 4 in say 20 minutes I'll give $10 to the politician of your choice, but if I can you have to give $10 to Dean's group.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. That Is So Grown Up! It'd Be A Fun Quiz... Wonder How I'd Do.... :-)
but I think it's work better if we answered off the top of our heads.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. That is fine but I want time to see the post and type my answer
I am not a world class typist.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Sure I'd love to give a quiz but that's not the point. All I hear from
Dean fans is faith-based politics ("he'll stand up to the DLC!") and anti-Kerry Rove memes and that's simply no way to conduct a serious political discussion.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Why does someone have to hate Dean to love another --
-- candidate, or hate another candidate to love Dean?

Jesus, that's absurd.

I bet most DUers can make a real strong case for any number of our candidates, especially when you set them against people like Jeb Bush, John McCain, and not least --

-- THE CAT BUTCHER.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Yes it is the point
words have meaning even when typed by you. Your original post asks "Do any Dean supporters know what a policy is?" You go on to say:

" None appear to have watched the presidential debates or have any idea what Kerry's position on any number of issues, including but not exclusively Iraq, is or was. None seem to have followed the Senate voting on Rice. None seem to be aware of the speeches Kennedy has been making crticizing the war, calling for immediate U.S. withdrawal, and denouncing Bush privatization plans for Social Security and Medicare."

The word none and the word any have very specific meanings. If you don't recall what they are then find an online dictionary. BTW Kennedy didn't call for immediate US withdrawl. He called for, after the election, the withdrawl of 12,000 US troops and for that withdrawl to continue for some amount of time (immediate also has a specific meaning).

The fact is that if I can answer your questions then it appears that more than none Dean supporters have watched the Presidential debates to site one example.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
46. Too chicken to take the challenge?
You said Dean supporters are not informed. Why not jump at the chance to prove it?
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Look, I said I'd make a quiz. Answer post #45 okay? n/t
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. "I believe....."
:boring:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
26. Flamebait of the day award
goes to you. Bravo. You managed to call all supporters of a politician uninformed and essentially, stupid. My, my, I hope you're suitably proud of yourself. Your post demonstrates such thoughtfulness.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
27. flamebait
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. I do, but I was a Dean supporter rather than a raving Dean follower.
Hero worship comes with the territory of not being/not taking the effort of being informed/being detail oriented enough with opinions. It also misses a lot of what Dean was really about.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
30. Also, count my vote for "not flamebait". n/t
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
36. It's a serious question: WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION,
which appears to be 99.99% Rove smear, campaign mud, and outright lies, and 0.01% faith-based policy?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I would guess it's just classic groupthink.
No one wants to appear disloyal to the internal resistance within the Democratic Party, so they take unsubtle positions to show that loyalty. Everyone thinks everyone else is in agreement so they fall in line.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. I am still waiting for the quiz
I guess you are all talk and no action.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Okay, for you I'll think of a quiz. Multiple choice or fill-in? n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. I want fill in
These can't be gotcha questions either. And spelling doesn't count. I shouldn't lose on typos alone.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Okay well give me a few hours. Check back this evening okay? n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. I have a party to go to
unless you have it done by 3 I can't do it.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Okay how about 24 hours from right now? n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. that I can do.
I will sign on at around 2pm tomorrow. I won't be on all day due to having to catch up on grading papers and planning but I can take a break then.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. OK n/t
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. Again, you've framed your question
so that it's a total smear. How rovian of YOU.

But if you want to know where I get my information, here you go:

Primary sources such as position papers and legislation. Periodical such as Harper's and the New Yorker.
C-SPAN, CBC and BBC
The New York Times. Yes, the Times.

In addition, let me add that I don't make it a habit of slamming good dems or their supporters. It's a tacky thing to do. I have long admired JK. I voted for him gladly. I support Dean because I know him and I know his record. He was my governor for 11 years. I admire and like Wesley Clark. This Dean supporter started a thread a couple of weeks ago stating that I'd be glad to see him run again. About the only dem I ever attack is Lieberman- and I don't see the point in going overboard on that.
The generalization you made is born of the human impulse to see only that which fits in with our world view. You should contemplate that for a bit.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
38. marcologico, the primaries are over.
While I object to Kerry being slammed at DU ad infinitum, I also object to deliberate wanton antagonism just for antagonism's sake.

When you see a post which is ill informed...try to inform rather than just making a one line stab and perhaps the issue will abate.

This helps nothing at this point.
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. The primaries are over, but the '08 race is on, and the lies keep coming.
Dean's DNC race is pretty clearly a prelude to an '08 race and apparently that's what's behind the non-stop stupidity.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. So keeping antagonisms going in the interim
is going to be a great strategy... one that will enable us to work together in 2006 AND 2008.

:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
59. What are you talking about??
What lies? Who's telling them? About whom are they being told? Where are these lies? On DU? Proof please.
Dean's repeatedly said he won't run in '08 if he becomes Chair. I don't think he's lying. What reason do you have to believe he is? Note please that I said reason, not simply your desire to believe the worst of the man.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. or the desire
to keep deep rifts within the ranks alive and well? May not be the intent but seems to be a certain result.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. And yet, there's this "Dean must be DNC chair or I'm seceding" contingent.
Indeed, the primaries are over.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. Give me a break. LoZoccolo, you know that's all hyperbole
like when people say they're leaving the country if Bush wins.

Few people have said it, and if those that do want to leave the party if the DNC chair doesn't go their way, good riddance. It's not something to get pushed out of shape about.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
61. So you believe people should be forced to stay in the party
when they are disgusted with it?
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
40. I know what a policy is.
I also support Dean for DNC chairman. Is there anything else you wish to know?
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
58. OK just for the hell of it I'll post a 10-question fill-in quiz in 24 hrs.
See you then.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
64. I'm locking this thread
reason:

The Primaries are over and this is Flamebait
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