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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:36 PM
Original message
Bill to make hiring illegal aliens an unfair business practice ABOUT TIME
Oklahoma Bill Making Hiring of Illegal Aliens an Unfair Labor Practice Addresses a Serious Threat to the American Middle Class

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050125/dctu036_1.html

""While the federal government refuses to take action against employers who undercut opportunities and wages for American workers, Sen. Adelson's Oklahoma Fair Employment Act (Senate Bill 510), would impose state penalties against such employers and allow citizens and legal U.S. residents to take action against them.""

It's about time. Mainly Republican businessmen and globalized corporations have been laying off thousands of native-born workers in order to take advantage of the tax benefits of hiring immigrants, whether legal as with H1B or L1 visaholders or illegal !

Northeastern University's article on employment "NATIONS IMMIGRANTS ACCOUNT FOR BULK OF LABOR FORCE GROWTH SINCE 2000 WHILE NATIVE-BORN WORKERS EXPERIENCE HEAVY DECLINES"

http://www.nupr.neu.edu/01-04/immigration_jan.html

the title says it all. The Department of Labor should have been investigating fraud and its Office of Inspector General should have been advising US workers that THEIR rights were being violated by letting businesses fire them in order to force them to be 'retained' in order to train their visa-holding replacements !

Oklahoma is OK with me. And the anti-globalization provisions of this bill should make the globalizing corporate theives shake in their boots. I don't know whether the Oklahoma State Senator who is sponsoring this bill is a Dem or a Rep...I just know it's the RIGHT THING TO DO AND EVERY STATE SHOULD ENACT SIMILAR LEGISLATION.



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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. I KIND OF agree, BUT
Protectionist laws are going to have to be very strong and agressive to beat back the tide of declining U.S. standard of living. It will continue to decline, pretty much all we can do at this point is slow it down. Much of our wealth is based on exploiting people and resources outside of our borders. We are going to lose power over that eventually.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. As someone whose job was sent to Bangalore and was supposed
to be 'retained' to train my replacement, I'm surprised you think this can't happen to you. And the income from the job I lost ... well, what I'm doing now is only about half that amount. This adds up.

World GDP is about $33 trillion annually; US GDP is around $11 trillion with 2/3rds of that as 'consumption'. So about 20 percent of the world's economy is US consumption, and you start stagnating wages along with hemorrhaging jobs ( http://www.nupr.neu.edu/01-04/immigration_jan.html ) and guess what ? Sooner or later YOU'RE going to feel it, with rising costs to make up for the economic impacts you cavalierly blow off as happening mainly to 'exploiting people and resources outside of our borders.'

Sorry, direstrike, it can happen to you and it's already happening to your neighbors. The only ones who don't seem to realize this are the wealthiest Republicans who relate mainly to their gated community neighbors and don't seem to get out of the beltway or near job sixpack's (my) world.
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Mystified Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. Excellent column by Lou Dobbs on this
At this link here:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/050131/opinion/31dob...

You'll have to pay to read the column after Monday, 1/31

Some quotes:

"Until this administration and the federal government can ensure that we have control of our borders and ports, the Homeland Security Department is simply a federal bureaucracy indulging in nothing less than a sham, spending billions of dollars in taxpayer money to game the American people. These shameless border games must end. And real reform must begin."

"That reform, in my opinion, begins at our borders. Here's what real reform should entail: No matter how much money or manpower is required, we must be able to control the flow of people and goods across our borders and through our ports. We must exact heavy penalties on businesses, large and small, as well as individuals who hire illegal aliens. Not only do illegal aliens cost the nation tens of billions of dollars in social services, principally in healthcare and education, but they depress wages for American citizens by an estimated $200 billion a year. American business is exploiting cheap labor and paradoxically doing so with the blessing and support of national unions."

"The burden of our failed immigration and homeland security policies, if they can be called policies, falls crushingly on working men and women in the form of higher taxes, lower wages, and an all but total lack of representation by the government they support through their votes and tax dollars. An estimated 6 million illegal aliens work in the underground economy, where neither they nor those who employ them pay taxes. That accounts for part of an additional $400 billion a year in taxes that should be paid to the Internal Revenue Service. Once again, the middle class is under assault by a government that is functioning as if it had never heard of the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution."


Illegal immigrants suppress the wages of all Americans because they will work for below-market wages. I'm all for legal immigration, people using the proper channels to obtain work visas and eventually citizenship. But it is economic suicide to allow our country to conitnue to be flooded with workers who are willing to work for substantially less than what a job should pay, not to mention sub-standard working conditions. We must take away the incentive for businesses to hire illegals. A good start would be a hefty, say $10,000 per worker, fine against the employer for each illegal found working for said employer.

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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. yeah, the real moral lapse is using these folks as under-paid labor
I would have no objection to their coming here in vast numbers of businesses didn't gleefully use in as an excuse to pay people far less than a living wage, which in turn makes honest American workers look like expensive investments to these businesses.

If we paid a living wage to all by law everyone would benefit: workers, businesses who would have eager, loyal employees, and the Social Security system, where a boost in national wages would take care of that gap in the trust fund.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Never happen at the federal level...
The McCarren-Walter Act of 1952, with the inclusion of a clause called the Texas Proviso, made sure of that.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Don't know what you're talking about...
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 06:04 PM by EVDebs
Apparently you didn't read this article

"NATIONS IMMIGRANTS ACCOUNT FOR BULK OF LABOR FORCE GROWTH SINCE 2000 WHILE NATIVE-BORN WORKERS EXPERIENCE HEAVY DECLINES"

http://www.nupr.neu.edu/01-04/immigration_jan.html

Please read and THEN comment.

I'm not talking about deportations, I'm talking about the unfair business practice of hiring someone just because they ARE an immigrant (and will work more cheaply and be exploited to silence).
See "The McCarran-Walter Act: A Contradictory Legacy on Race, Quotas, and Ideology"

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2004_mccarranwal...

Again, I'm not talking about deportations...the illegals and immigrants are already here and many on valid visas.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. At the time of the MCCarren-Walter Act, many of the lower wage
workers were already immigrants, and many of them were ilegals, especially in Texas. At the time, there was an outcry about a dearth of jobs for returning servicepeople from all over the world. The act was a way of severely limiting the influx of immigrants, especially from Mexico. The Texas Proviso allowed that in Texas, providing shelter, food and employment to an illegal immigrant did not constitute 'Harboring.' My post was really only intended as an indirect link to the original post, but it did seem to be relevant, as the various legislatures, not excluding the federal body, speak from both sides of their collective mouths about this issue on a constant basis. It all comes down to saving the almight profit. If the people of Oklahoma can finally put an end to profiteering at the price of the American worker, and at the price of exploiting poor people desperate for any kind of income, I am all for it.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. Bashing immigrants
. . .priceless
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Wrong, the price is already being paid and it's billions of $
What's really priceless is letting the "Exporting of America: Why Corporate Greed Is Shipping American Jobs Overseas", as Lou Dobbs puts it, continue unabated and allow it to become a political plum for the conservatives (see Pat Buchanan's "Suicide By Free Trade" for a prime example, or writings by Paul Craig Roberts on www.vdare.com )... while 'progressives' let their fellow workers get their pockets picked by globalizing corportations.

Malcolm X had it right about so-called liberals...

"The white liberals, who have been posing as our friends, have failed us." http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/malcolm-x /

Yes, indeed, stay away from them, they're only out to help themselves and let the country go down the toilet.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. So. . . uh. . .
we can still bash immigrants? It's definitely their fault, right?
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Bash the Dept of Labor that deprives US workers rights and
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 08:52 PM by EVDebs
allows too many immigrants to enter the country for the specific purpose of displacing jobs from US citizens. Did you read the Northeastern Univsity report ? Obviously not, just want to play a race card or claim 'bashing'...too bad...Malcolm WAS right.

A Stupid Party and an Evil Party...From
"Immigration policy stupid, evil and hurting Americans"
http://www.vdare.com/pb/cc_times.htm

""IN AMERICA, WE have a two-party system," a Republican congressional staffer is supposed to have told a visiting group of Russian legislators some years ago.

"There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party.""

Dems are quickly becoming the evil party. Thanks for helping to point this out to all those like me who have been fired from our jobs so that we could train our foreign 'replacements'. Keep up the good work.



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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Race Card?
I didn't know that all immigrants were of the same race. Which is the immigrant race?
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Sorry for bringing race up. Just mostly Indian or Latin American make up
the vast majority if stats are being kept, seems to me. Since you asked, what is the makeup of this new wave of immigrants ? Which nationalities make up the largest groupings ?
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. resource
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Mystified Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. To an extent
Yes, we can bash ILLEGAL immigrants. However, I place just as much, if not more, blame on the employer who gives them a job in the first place.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. NOW YOU'RE GETTING THE PICTURE !
Mainly Repub businesses, corporate globalizers, are behind this ! Kerry started his campaign great by chastising 'Benedict Arnold' corporations doing exactly what I'm ranting about....however now, even in THIS austere forum, I'm being charged with 'bashing immigrants'.
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Mystified Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. Yes, priceless
Because we all know that no matter what, it is never okay, NEVER, to say anything that might suggest that illegal immigration could be a problem. I hope you never have to find a job in construction or the service industry in a border state.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. The history in America
of bashing immigrants and blaming them for shifts in wages and standards of living is extensive. Since the early 19th Century Americans have been targeting immigrants and blaming them for their lot in life.

I have no problem with analyzing economic issues and their relation to migration, but this thread had one intention. How can we exploit the percieved threat of mass immigration for political gain.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. You're right to an extent, since no one bashes the Robber Barons
policies of exploitation (read 'globalization') back then. Chinese and Irish to work on the railroads at starvation wages...oh, almost forgot the slavery system itself.

Yes, they then built monuments to their philanthropy such as the Leland Stanford Junior Univ and such but then created zoning and other segregationist mechanisms to enforce racial separation beliefs. Zoning gets its start in NYC in order to separate the poorer from the richer; in CA it is a case (In re Hang Ke) to remove Chinese laundaries.

The wealthier would certainly play off race to enforce wage slavery. And it looks like modern day liberals, again disguising themselves as friends of the underclass which is growing in this country daily due to the policies of globalization, don't seem to eager to get to the ROOT CAUSE of the inequities.
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Pushed To The Left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
50. No. Bashing cheap labor conservatives
is more like it! Both the illegal immigrants and the American workers are the victims here. The perpetrators are the cheap labor conservatives. Just because we are opposed to illegal immigration does not mean we are opposed to all immigration. I love the idea of people from different countries becoming American citizens! I just want to see it happen legally. That way, the cheap labor conservatives won't be in a position to take advantage of the immigrants.

I have noticed that the right wing has been very ineffective on this issue, yet they use it to energize their base. They seem to throw in a lot of racial overtones as well. Of course, this is probably done to energize the racists in their base, and to energize us to oppose them. In reality, they don't appear to really want to succeed. They want the cheap labor. Remember, most conservatism is all about $$$$$ for people in power. What we progressives need to do is to eliminate the racial element that the conservatives have put in there to manipulate both the right and the left. We need to look at finding a practical solution.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sorry to say
Right solution, no teeth. Without authorizing an agency to investigate and prosecute, nothing will be done. It doesn't even give workers the right to complain with the labor board. Oklahoma does have a labor bureau, doesn't it? I particularly like the phrase "unfair trade practices" though. Everybody gets that.

And it is not immigrant bashing. We don't help poor immigrants by allowing them to be treated as an underclass in this country.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. "Underclass" in America
is royalty in a lot of countries
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Nobody in this country is aspiring to Underclass status. Thanks for your
help. You're digging a deeper hole for yourself with each try at an 'argument'.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Laugh
Some people do. Especially if those people come from a country in which they face starvation everyday. It's nice to eat, even if the middle class frowns upon your living standards.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Really?
Do you have any idea how many illegal immigrants live in a house? 10, 20 at a time. One segment of society doesn't want them to even let their children go to school and they sure can't afford health care. Some would say let them die. Those same people will turn right around and hire them or use companies that hire them and pretend they didn't know. And then there's the entire group of legal working citizens who live in homeless shelters, cars or a camp trailer if they're lucky. Royalty? You obviously don't pay attention to foreign affairs, or even those in your own back yard.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. That
was not a response to my post. Unless you get to pretend I said something else.

Living in a house with ten or twenty other people is awful by YOUR standards. For someone from a country in which they cannot afford to live in a heated home in an area in which they can earn enough money to feed their family, it's a huge step up. You think immigrants who save every penny to get to America had health care in their previous country?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. You said royalty
That's what you said. There are certainly different levels of poverty, but importing it doesn't seem to be a very bright solution to global poverty. That's what we're currently doing. We ought to be insisting multinational corporations conduct themselves with some ethics in foreign countries so the citizens can lift themselves up out of poverty and not have a need to come here.
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Finding Rawls Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Once again
You're starting a whole new line of argument.

For many immigrants, a move to America to make our "poverty" wages is an incredible step up. They can afford to feed their family and live in a stable and safe environment. It may be importing poverty to you, but for them it is move to make a better life. They are not concerned with the solution to "global poverty." They want to have a good life.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. It's your argument
You're the one that started up about the U.S. poor who live like royalty. I'd like to live like any of the royalty or uppercrust of a third world country, I bet most Americans would. I know how they got that way too, bribes and corruption from dealing with US multinationals. Which leaves their people in poverty. So don't tell me they have to come here and drive our wages down so the same multinationals can make even more money. It isn't a new line of argument, it all goes together. And people like you are helping drive us all down.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Even the United Farm Workers doesn't favor unlimited immigration...
and you know why ? Tell me.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
41. A growing underclass is something you think is GOOD for the US ?
I think you need to rethink that or clarify please. We have a growing underclass due to Bush's economic policies. The economy is stagnant due to globalization and the offshoring of jobs, that are then 'made up for' with lower paying 'Mc Jobs' that aren't even subsistence wages. At the same time, from the Northeastern University study I mentioned above, native-born citizens aren't being hired for jobs but immigrants are. If that isn't growing the underclass please correct me !
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Seems like you even mention this and 'oh, you're bashing...'
""The economic stupidity of current mass immigration policy is illustrated by a brilliant new book, "Heaven's Door: Immigration Policy and the American Economy" (Princeton University Press).

The author, Professor George Borjas of Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government, is widely regarded as the leading American immigration economist. And he is an immigrant, arriving here penniless from Castro's Cuba in 1962, when he was 12 years old."" From that site http://www.vdare.com/pb/cc_times.htm Also, immigrants were on the team doing the Northeastern Univ study !

I guess they don't like to face facts so they just do name calling. No wonder the republicans score points, the cast offs from this DU site by name-calling alone .... well.



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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
42. So called 'teeth' agencies are stacked with republicans DOL etc
From post #30 above quoting Lou Dobbs

"...it is economic suicide to allow our country to conitnue to be flooded with workers who are willing to work for substantially less than what a job should pay, not to mention sub-standard working conditions. We must take away the incentive for businesses to hire illegals. A good start would be a hefty, say $10,000 per worker, fine against the employer for each illegal found working for said employer."

We must punish the globalizing employers who've created these policies that are feeding the growth of the underclass in the USA. Dobb's idea of a $10,000 is something Dems and progressives should be looking at !
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DiscoStew Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. jingoism n/t
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Jingo this "Least-skilled Americans are being hurt. ...
"Borjas estimates that almost half of the increased wage gap between high school dropouts and high school graduates can be attributed to immigration. Again, note carefully what Professor Borjas is saying. Mass immigration is not making Americans richer overall. But it is, in effect, redistributing income between Americans. Specifically, because immigrants tend to be unskilled, they compete with American unskilled workers and have forced their wages down. " http://www.vdare.com/pb/cc_times.htm

"If the GOP does not offer ideas to halt the de-industrialization of America and the hemorrhaging of blue- and white-collar jobs, it is going to wind up on a landfill...
Indeed, if the issue is jobs, Republicans ought to be thrown out. For not only are they not creating them, they have no idea how to stop exporting them. In their hearts, some of them think it a good thing. They are like the doctors of old who sincerely believed bleeding the patient was the way to get rid of the disease because that is what their textbooks and wise men told them" From

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_04_12/buchanan.html

Dems don't want to win, they just want to name-call..I get it now.


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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Many of the shit-stirrers here are not Democrats.
Always a good idea to keep that in mind.
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DiscoStew Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. well...
i'm not stirring shit, i just got here. just seems to me we're a nation of imigrants, that's all.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. "just seems to me we're a nation of imigrants"
Now who's using jingoism.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. This Thread Underscores Why American Citizens And Immigrants
. . who come to this country to build a better life are screwed. The minute there is any discussion of tightening up immigration, a civil war revolving around accusations of racism breaks out, nothing gets done, and the Iron Heel (GOP Corporatists) laugh all the way to the bank.

All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions for legal residents.

As an example, meatpacking jobs (in the midwest) paid a middle class wage ($20/hr+ in 2000 $) in the 70's. These jobs provided good health care and retirement benefits because they were unionized. As was related by a worker from this era, the social contract was that it was hard, dangerous work that left most workers crippled when they retired, and the compensation was commensurate.

Over the 70's and 80's non-union plants were opened, and the unionized plants closed or the unions busted. As compensation was much lower at the non-union plants, U.S. citizens abandoned the industry, and the labor void was filled with immigrants. Since the supply of this labor is virtually unlimited, compensation and workplace safety has plummeted.

The 70's era worker, in the interview I heard, indicated that there would be no problem attracting U.S. citizens to the industry if compensation and workplace conditions were similar to the 70's.

So, it appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship.

What we need a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration.

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles which think sums up my feelings on this issue.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20040802&s=fo...

"The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world."
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Odd solution
You've hit the problem. Odd that a guest worker program would be your solution. Just guarantees a continued supply of immigrants that will keep the problem exactly the way it is. What we need are our unions back, that's what we need.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. End Trying To Interdict The Supply And Treat The Demand
Employers would hire participants in the guest worker program through State workforce development offices. To be eligible to hire Guest Workers, an employer would have to demonstrate a bona-fide shortage. The program would be funded through a fee paid by the employer for each worker hired.

Employer's would have to comply with all minimum wage and benefits
laws, and the workers would be provided all protections under labor and workplace safety laws.

Penalties for hiring undocumented workers would be severe, possibly being raised to a felony level, and strictly enforced.

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. We'd better figure out our position on this issue, because it's
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 10:19 PM by BullGooseLoony
becoming more important year after year.

I think we should keep Bush's position in mind, in doing so.
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Pushed To The Left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
32. Sounds good to me!
Illegal immigration benefits cheap labor conservatives. The right wing claims to be against illegal immigration, but they never do anything effective to stop it. I think we progressives need to take control of this issue! We will be protecting American workers and exposing the cheap labor conservatives for the phonies that they are!
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. Wow, I'm making my point. I'll keep this up ! Thank you.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
38. sure let's send them all back where they came from ...and then just
send our tax dollars to Mexico to provide "aid" once the real balance of poverty hits. Afterall, they work the jobs most whites don't want to do for little to nothing. They are such bad, bad people.

Now, give me a break, but in my town, the illegals are employed in the local casinos and hotels doing all the shit work like maids, kitchen service, waitresses in buffet areas that serve $3.99 breakfasts, field work, busboys, etc. and many of them work two and three jobs at minimum wage, yet their little families are always nicely dressed, they make their kids earn money early, they send money home to their families over the border, they behave better than most "whites" I know.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. So what you're saying is "legalize" the illegals and what I'm saying
is pay them all, now that we've legalized them, a living wage ! Anyone working in the US should be paid a living wage or be fined ... that's what is CAUSING this problem, the globalizer corporations and the repub enablers are playing this wage gap for all it's worth.

Like post #30 said above

"it is economic suicide to allow our country to conitnue to be flooded with workers who are willing to work for substantially less than what a job should pay, not to mention sub-standard working conditions. We must take away the incentive for businesses to hire illegals. A good start would be a hefty, say $10,000 per worker, fine against the employer for each illegal found working for said employer."

The Oklahoma lawmaker who put this kind of legislation out there is going to get support. Bush is just playing for time by allowing more immigration so as to prop up his faulty Social Security and upcoming Medicare plans...how to pay for them ? He'll even throw out potential immigration amnesty, like he did during the campaign, in order to get more Hispanic votes--like he did. But he never touches the underlying problem of too much immigration. It is currently out of balance. Slow or stop it for awhile and let the balance come back, else risk the 'economic suicide' that is the engine of the world economy, the US economy !


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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I am sure the rich white casino owners in Las Vegas would love for you
to move to Nevada and wipe toilets for minimum wage. Welcome to the Red State!

Have you had a chance to see "Dirty Pretty Things"??? Watch it. It's a good eyeball view of who all these immigrants are from all around the world.

The word is DESPERATE ...
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Who will pick the cotton?
:shrug:
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. NVmojo and sadie...read these articles and see what's really up
"Law Shouldn't Allow High-Tech Industry To Indenture Immigrants"
http://www.commondreams.org/views/092900-103.htm

The situation is more like this article shows: "high tech sweatshops"

And the United Farm Workers works to limit immigration, and as this article shows, get legal status for the many who have already come across the border for starvation wages: "Farm Worker Bill Gaining Momentum"

http://www.visalaw.com/04apr1/12apr104.html

The impacts of continued illegal immigration, from a UCDavis researcher of UFW research on strawberry industry in CA shows us that

"...unauthorized workers continue to enter the strawberry labor force, reminding current workers that they can be replaced by more vulnerable workers. There has been relatively little INS enforcement in agriculture: according to a recent GAO report, about 38 percent or 760,000 of the nation's two million crop workers are not authorized to work in the US, but the INS removed only 700 unauthorized farm workers from US farms in FY97. This suggests that, so long as unauthorized workers continue to enter the US, the workers and their US employers can satisfy the letter of the law and avoid enforcement that might result in labor shortages and upward pressure on wages."

Yes, who will do the 'dirty work' ? I remember when in the old days the high school kids did the ag work of harvesting during the summmer months (in fact, that's why the summer vacation is there in the first place; also, some older people would make money in the old days picking prunes and apples in the area I am from). Those days are gone for sure, but unless "living wage", which is assumed for those already US citizens, can be eventually ensured for those doing the 'dirty work' ... who aren't adequately compensated as you are well aware... then there is NO INCENTIVE to stop hiring those desperate for any work by employers ready to illegally hire them at inadequate wages, which through economic multiplier effects depresses wages for EVERYONE !

Think nvmojo and sadiesworld...a break from the current over-immigration policy is all I'm asking for, along with a financial remuneration of $10,000 from employers who have displaced US workers and/or illegally hired immigrants.

In the long run it benefits immigrants.




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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
45. India, China, Poland...countries that support Bush as mentioned in news
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:44 PM by EVDebs
Geee whiz. I wonder why ? All other countries didn't support Bush but the first two clearly understandibly do, as major beneficiaries of the Outsourcing/Offshoring of jobs.

And don't forget Poland !
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