My problem with John Kerry...

[milkyway]

Kerry has been a solid Dem for years, but has he ever taken a courageous stand? I don't mean to start a flame war, I really am trying to find out more about him. He is from Massachusetts, probably the most liberal state in the country. Has he ever taken a stand that might have cost him the job he has or the job he wants in the future? It's easy to be a little bit to the left when you're from Massachusetts. But will he have the political courage to stand up to the right wing if he were to become President? His constituency will no longer be Massachusetts, it will be the entire country. In our Fair and Balanced nation today, there will be tremendous pressure to move rightward. Any Dem that wins will be savaged by the right-wing media unmercifully. Would he stand on principle, even if it may cost him politically and perhaps re-election?

With his eye on the Presidency, Kerry gave in to Bush on the IWR and the Patriot Act. He didn't stand up against Bush until Howard Dean forced him to do so. Is this what we can expect from a President Kerry, appeasing the right wing?

Really, I have an open mind on this, I just want more info on your guy. And in advance, here's what Dean has said just recently that has cost him tremendously, perhaps the Presidency:

"The American people are no safer with the capture of Saddam Hussein."

"One interesting theory is that President Bush was tipped off by the Saudis about 9/11."

"I'll undo the Bush tax cuts on the middle class and go back to Bill Clinton's tax rates."

I don't think too many here at DU would argue the validity of the first two, and probably the third. Howard Dean has said what he believes, without first getting an o.k. from his pollsters. This guy must be crazy!

[Demonaut]

1. remember ABB......he's also a member of skull and bones

But the dems have been too lethargic lately and now the line is truly in the sand....ABB

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

31. and CFR, and he covered up for Bush I and Iran Contra

let's not forget

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=154665

[ALago1]

2. He was an early opponent of the Vietnam war

And that was after serving in it and winning several honors!

He was an integral part of rallying Vietnam Vets against the war when it was still somewhat popular, and testified to the senate on such matters.

Quite a big "stand" if you ask me...

If you want more recent examples, take any progressive issue such as environment, civil rights and liberties, economic justice, etc, and look at his voting record. It is fairly untarnished and uncompromised.

[milkyway]

13. I think you missed my main point...

It's easy to stand up for progressive causes when you're constituency is the most progressive state in the country. But will he do the same when his constituency is the entire nation? He didn't with the IWR or Patriot Act.

[ima_sinnic]

20. opposing the Vietnam War was easy

. . . most of the rest of the country was also. In addition, that was 30 years ago. He hasn't taken a risk in 30 years?

[KittyWampus]

21. Kerry Took Courageous Stands Ten Years Ago Against BFEE

and supporting Gays in the Military. That much I will grant him.

However, he has rested on his laurels.

And he is one of the Sentator who must now say he was "hoodwinked" by Bush. Not a good election theme.

Further, Kerry has spent most of this Primary Season going after Dean and not Bush. In fact, after the last debate, Matthews asked Kerry to comment about Paul O'Neill's revelations about Bush and Kerry brushed aside the question and attacked Dean.

Further he is no saint and has essentially been bought by the Telecom Industry.

Center for Public Integrity is publishing a book this year entitled "Buying The Presidency" with a whole section featuring Kerry.


Sen. John F. Kerry, D-Mass., whose largest campaign contributor lobbies on behalf of telecommunication
interests, pushed the legislative priorities of its clients in the wireless industry on several occasions, a
Center for Public Integrity analysis of campaign, lobbying and congressional records has found. That
analysis is part of the Center's research for The Buying of the President 2004 (to be published by
HarperCollins), which tracks the financial backers and interests of the major candidates for the White
House.

Kerry, who is seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, has sponsored or co-sponsored a number of
bills favorable to the industry and has written letters to government agencies on behalf of the clientele of
his largest donor.
Boston-based Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo P.C. has been the biggest financial backer of
the Massachusetts Democrat's two decades-long political career in elected office, with its employees
contributing nearly $187,000 to various Kerry races, including his current presidential campaign.

Kerry's ties to the firm go beyond campaign contributions. His brother Cameron F. Kerry is an attorney at
the firm's Boston office, and David Leiter, who was the Senator's chief of staff for six years, is a lobbyist for
ML Strategies LLC, a Mintz, Levin affiliate that provides consulting and lobbying services.

Mintz, Levin advertises communications law among its areas of expertise and lobbies on behalf of wireless
industry clients such as AT&T Wireless Service, XO Communications Inc. and the Cellular Telecommunications
& Internet Association. CTIA is the trade association of the wireless industry; its more than 320 members
include carriers, manufacturers and wireless Internet providers. CTIA-affiliated companies and their
employees have contributed at least $152,000 to Kerry. The amount includes contributions made to his
presidential campaign and his previous election efforts, his political action committees and the 527 group
that Kerry formed. Verizon employees donated close to a third of that amount ($45,400).

much more at link-

By M. Asif Ismail

http://www.bop2004.org/bop2004/report.aspx?aid=4

[blm]

22. Can you prove that Kerry's BROTHER wouldn't have donated to him

unless Kerry performed some task for him?

This money was donated by his brother and COWORKERS at the firm over 18 YEARS and you know that by now, but you persist in misrepresenting it as a quid pro quo.

So...put up the evidence that Kerry accepted donations from his brother and coworkers JUST for favorable legislation.

[KittyWampus]

27. Well Take It Up With Center for Public Integrity

and there is much more information about Kerry at the link I provided fleshing out their position on Kerry's actions which were algigned with Bush and Telecom Industry.


Further, Kerry knows that Clark has done nothing illegal or unethical in his post-Military Career and yet he allows his campaign to malign him.

[UTUSN]

35. Opposing VN War Is Easy NOW----- It Was Not, THEN n/t

[sandnsea]

39. Oh you have no idea

That is the biggest load. The country was divided on Vietnam. Somebody just posted a web site from some Vietnam vets who are still angry at the veteran war protestors. Either people have selective memories or they just don't understand how it really was.

41. not exactly true

At the time Kerry started speaking out against the war (71) the country was still deeply divided. A lot of people were against the war, but to say that most of the country was is just plain inaccurate.
I'm not going to defend Kerry regarding your second point about risks since then, I just strongly disagree with you that opposing the Vietnam war was easy at the time. Think Kent State. Think McGovern's defeat, just for starters.

[George_Bonanza]

43. He went in front of the Senate to fight for it

He didn't just hold up a sign in a massive thousand+ gathering.

[JI7]

3. IWR vote hurt him with constituency

i think it may be one reason he was lower than dean in massachusettes.

[JI7]

4. investigation involving a big democrat

he was investigating a scandal that involved a big name democrat. the other democrats wanted him to back off on it just because of that democrat, but he pushed through it.

[George_Bonanza]

5. The answer's very easy to obtain: It's a resounding YES!

Look up:

1) Vietnam

2) Richard Nixon

3) Iran-Contra

4) BCCI

5) Defense of Marriage Act

6) Cursing in Rolling Stone mag

Now you can do the predictable thing and dismiss that as the past, but the best indicator in predicting one's sincerity when speaking rhetoric is seeing if they can back it up. John Kerry has 30 years of work to back up whatever rhetoric he uses.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. Sorry but your premises are absolutely false.

You obviously have your mind made up about Kerry, to say you have an open mind and at the same time to say "With his eye on the Presidency, Kerry gave in to Bush on the IWR and the Patriot Act" is such unmitigated crap that I feel like throwing up right now.

[einniv]

10. I thought it was refreshingly honest.

more in a moment...

It was a tough decision to make to be sure but I think we all know a lot of the dems were playing politics with their votes on that resolution. Dean did as well in what he said about it.

They all did (except Dennis of course :) ). Might as well be honest about it

[La_Serpiente]

7. what?

let's see.

1. BCCI - went after even people of his own party

2. Iran/Contra - he was labeled as a Conspiracy Theorist at first - he put the Raygun administration on the spot.

3. Protested against the Vietnam War - and testified in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee when he came back home. He was also arrested on the steps of the Supreme Court. Ironically, he ended up on that very same committee 15 years later.

[MercutioATC]

8. IMHO, Dean's the one being honest.

"The American people are no safer with the capture of Saddam Hussein."

We're not. I DO believe that, in a strange way, SH contributed a degree of stability to Iraq. He may have ruled with an iron fist, but he didn't harbor foreign terrorist groups.



"One interesting theory is that President Bush was tipped off by the Saudis about 9/11."

This is hardly a new claim and should be investigated further, especially in light of the allegation that this administration began planning military action against Iraq in 2000.


"I'll undo the Bush tax cuts on the middle class and go back to Bill Clinton's tax rates."

This is only a problem with those who already harbor an anti-Dean sentiment. It's no secret here in NE Ohio that state income taxes and local property taxes have increased since Bush has been in office, more than offsetting the "cuts" we recieved. The "Clinton" tax structure would be better for the majority of us. Those who tout the "$1000 middle class tax cut" leave out the property tax hikes and the sales tax hikes that cost MORE than the meager "savings" Bush gave us.

This has been detailed ad nauseum, and I don't feel the need to say any more. Suffice it to say that "undoing the Bush tax cuts" would be a boon to many of us "middle class" folk.

[Loren645]

9. He's not my first choice 'cause of IWR/Patriot Act, but

as I recall he was one of the few national/prominent Dems
to actually stand up for Gore during the recount.

When Daschle and Gephardt were rolling over (just go away
and don't make a fuss Al, such a nuisance Al, so unseemly Al),
I recall seeing Kerry on TV, and down in Fla, fighting for Gore
and a fair election.

I was grateful.

[calimary]

11. I still wish to heck that Kerry would get off his ass about fighting hard

I mean, he's got Rand Beers and Joseph Wilson in his camp, for crying out loud! WHY THE HELL HASN'T HE USED THEM? I am VERY concerned that we have a guy here who is apparently loaded with ammo to use against bush, and rather effectively, to bloody him up but good during the primary season so he'll be more damaged goods by convention time - AND HE HASN'T DONE SQUAT WITH IT.

WHAT THE F--- IS HE WAITING FOR?!?!?!?!?

It makes me wonder if he really wants to fight for this, and really wants to win, or not. Truly. I am so ready to give him the benefit of the doubt. Heck, if the New Hampshire and other primaries go the way Iowa did, this Dean supporter may have to. But I am terribly concerned that not only did Kerry cave to bush over and over and over about the war, the Patriot Act, and so much more, and didn't even bother sticking around to vote on the recent prescription bill for seniors. It screams "Poor Judgment" to me. And he is compounding that problem by sitting on his best ammo - which I have heard described as a "tactical nuke" in terms of how damaging it is to bush. And he won't blinkin' USE IT!!!

WHAT is the deal? Is he still too interested in making nice-nice and being a gentleman in this fight - when it really requires brass knuckles and mud wrestling?

I will certainly support him if he's the last Democrat standing, but MAN will I ever earn an Oscar in the feigned enthusiasm department.

[George_Bonanza]

15. John Kerry has taught me patience

I was agitated because he did not ask Ted Kennedy to campaign for him more when he was being whalloped by Dean. Then in the last minute, out comes the Grand Old Man of the Democratic Party and revitalizes Kerry's support just at the right time. I think Kerry will pull out Joe Wilson when the Bush machine starts attacking him about terrorism and foreign policy.

[isbister]

16. Which makes more sense?

To take the questions about bush's shenanigans to bush in a general election or to scream them at Gephardt (or whomever) in a Dem primary? I pick the first one. Its a long fight and maybe you don't fire off all of your weapons in the first day.

Kerry didn't cave to bush about the war.

The Patriot Act did have some well needed reforms. Just because the Patriot act had loopholes in it... it doesn't mean Ashcroft had to use it. Kerry will plug the loopholes and send Ashcroft packing with bush.

[HazMat]

18. Could it be that he knows a little something more about winning

than you do ? After all, JK won Iowa (and trounced Dean) when nobody -- the press, the party establishment, the base -- gave him a chance in hell.

John Kerry is the man who will truly "give us our country back" instead of just drama, anger, gimmicks and hype.

[blm]

29. Here's where I think you're wrong.

Kerry devastated Dean in Iowa. NOONE saw it coming. He did.

He has the intellect, nerve, patience and strategic acumen to accomplish his goals and diminish his opponent rapidly when the time is right.

Instant emotional gratification is a sure loser if it is timed badly and that's all ya got.

[isbister]

12. Did Dean really say that?

Wow, he might be in as much trouble as some have suggested. Who told him to say that, Trippi?

The third one is probably true but I would suggest his record as Gov. in VT may have been a factor, his misleading about his and the other candidate's position on the war, his comments about the voting process in Iowa on Canadian tv, his bringing in all of the Washington insiders to endorse him while Kerry and Edwards were being endorsed by neighbors and local papers, and he and Gephardt ripping away at each other while the other two were going positive didn't help either.

Those first two things happened way before Dean started dropping like a rock in Iowa.

[einniv]

14. I think John Kerry is one heck of a guy.

Go John Go!

An impeccable career of service to his country in several roles.

To be honest I was one of the ones to hear Dean's "voice in the wilderness" shortly after Gore "dropped out" but there has always been a nagging doubt about him(for me personally). Clark is ok but I'm not thrilled with his "credentials" since he has very few as a politician. Kerry I had more or less well i guess been "angry" with over the IWR thing...
But, that really was a tough situation to be in. And I can forgive and forget. The president really should go to the UN with a strong hand IF he is going to go... which it was clear he was. It is up to the president to make a decision when to deal with Iraq (if ever) . But if he asks then you probably should give him that strong hand at the UN.

I am still opposed due to Constitutional questions and having known in advance about the PNAC agenda and a general distrust of the Bushes. But it would damn tough(near impossible) to go to the public with PNACs and Constitutional technicalities.

I am very grateful to the people of Iowa for giving us a promise of a tough good campaign that will eventually give us the best candidate to take on Bush.

I still think Dean is going to win it but it will be good for the party and the Nov elections!!

[Old and In the Way]

17. It's going to be a long race against the best financed, most

corrupt Party in our history. The Republicans will be desperate to hold power and cover their crimes....at all costs.

Tactically, I'd rather see a 4 man race into the convention, but if one guy emerges as the front runner, I think Kerry will be our best choice to lead us in this campaign war.

[Voltaire99]

19. It's a significant problem

Kerry's key support for Bush weakens any argument he makes now against the war or the Patriot Act. Worse: if, as you assert, he voted for Bush policies with an eye on becoming president, then Kerry acted for selfish reasons. I think he's simply not much of a fighter, too conciliatory, too much of a compromised insider.

As for Dean's statements costing him tremendously, the Democratic Party establishment has been gunning for him for many months now. Open hostility at the top toward Dean became apparent as early as Al Fromm's angry denunciations, and the hasty entrance of Clark is best read as a response to the fears that an Internet-financed rabble rouser was making progress. Independent in his thinking and fundraising, Dean represents something uncontrollable and hence dangerous to the establishment; they won't allow him to upset the apple cart.

[funky_bug]

23. I believe Kerry took a stand

I watched Kerry last night after the SOTA, and I was quite satisfied with his answers of IWR and Patriot, as they paralleled my own experiences, post 9/11.

First and foremost, we have to remember these two things:

1. We were all scared shirtless
2. Then we were lied to

Had Bush the Lesser not taken action after 9/11 in some form, he would have been slaughtered for it. We were all scared, and we were all expecting our resident to do something, and do it quickly.

Enter the Patriot and IWR. Kerry explained last night that the IWR HE voted for gave the resident power to go to war AFTER all other efforts were exhausted, and after undeniable proof was presented, and after we had formed our alliances. Bush the Lesser did not follow through, instead leaning on his own self-righteous, God-based belief, that he had the power. (Thank you, Gov. Dean for reminding us that it's OUR power, and WE have it, in spite of Bush.) The Patriot, while containing some things which are necessary to defend us from terrorist cells on our own soil, was also twisted and convoluted to the point where now Ashcroft and the lot have "the power" to intrude on us an any time. By playing on all our fears, Bush the Lesser rushed Patriot through. By lying to us, he rushed us into war.

What Kerry voted for is NOT what Bush has abused. It's sort of like when I give my daughter lunch money for school. I expect that she's going to actually spend it on lunch. I'm disappointed when she spends it on junk food at the nearby mini-mart. Then I learn my lesson. I cannot give her free reign... I have to tighten those reigns, and instead give her a check made out to the school.

What Kerry recognizes, is that Bush has proven he is capable of lying, and abusing his authority. What Kerry is doing now, is cutting Bush a check... a reality check. The American people will no longer accept his promises as truth, will no longer allow him free reign, will no longer allow him to abuse our trust and our civil rights.

Kerry put that baby to bed last night. Let's move on, shall we?

[molly]

26. Great post! Great analogy! THANKS!

"What Kerry voted for is NOT what Bush has abused. It's sort of like when I give my daughter lunch money for school. I expect that she's going to actually spend it on lunch. I'm disappointed when she spends it on junk food at the nearby mini-mart. Then I learn my lesson. I cannot give her free reign... I have to tighten those reigns, and instead give her a check made out to the school."

[cindyw]

36. Thanks for saying what so many kerry people have understood for

so long. It is very frustrating to understand your candidates position and have it mischaracterized for so long.

[blm]

24. Wrong. That meme about Dean being brave is demonstrably FALSE.

Kerry Shows Courage In Challenging Bush
Thursday, August 8, 2002 By: Joe Conason

New York Observer
>>>>>>
But it was John Kerry who delivered the most interesting, substantive and challenging message. His subject was George W. Bush's shortcomings as a world leader.

The New York Times reported that Mr. Kerry "offered a long attack on Mr. Bush's foreign policy," although the paper gave short shrift to the details in the Senator''s speech. What he began to articulate was a Democratic critique of this administration''s blunt and myopic unilateralism, and a vision that restores international alliances to the center of American diplomacy.

He agrees with the objective of removing Saddam Hussein, but objected to the vague plans for what will replace the Iraqi dictatorship. He called the latest arms treaty with Russia a "cosmetic" one that inadequately safeguards decommissioned weapons. He denounced the "Cold War" approach to North Korea that has undone the progress achieved by the Clinton administration. He expressed scorn for the administration''s disengagement from the Middle East crisis before Sept. 11.

>>>>>>>>
He is, however, no naïïve internationalist who abhors military force. As he has done before, Mr. Kerry wondered aloud why the President didn't muster sufficient firepower in Afghanistan to destroy Al Qaeda''s army when the chance arose at Tora Bora.
>>>>>>>
Mr. Kerry is staking out a politically perilous position at a time when conventional wisdom declares foreign and military issues to be the exclusive province of the President. As a Senator from Massachusetts--whose last Presidential nominee suffered humiliating defeat by a candidate named Bush--he risks highlighting negative assumptions about his own viability on a national ticket. According to the scientific measurements made by political consultants, Mr. Kerry''s chosen path is marked "dead end." The safer domestic route is crowded with competitors who talk only about corporate responsibility, prescription drugs and Social Security. The boldest among them now criticize the lopsided tax cut that shouldn't have passed last year.
>>>>>>>
There is, however, at least one benefit for Mr. Kerry in speaking out on those faraway places and problems. While his rivals sound as if they''re campaigning for the offices they already occupy, he sounds as if he is running for President.
>>>>>>>>
Whether Mr. Kerry can engage the electorate in a discussion of America''s global responsibilities is far from certain. His own dispassionate style may hinder him. Yet he deserves great credit for reclaiming international leadership for his party when others cannot or will not.
*****************************************************

And here is how Dean was one of those Dems propping up Bush's image as commander-in-chief after Russert showed him clips of Kerry going after Bush:

 MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe the military operation in Afghanistan has been successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: Yes, I do, and I support the president in that military operation.
       
       MR. RUSSERT: The battle of Tora Bora was successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: I’ve seen others criticize the president. I think it’s very easy to second-guess the
       commander-in-chief at a time of war. I don’t choose to engage in doing that.

[creativelcro]

25. Many of my academic colleagues in MA have the same opinion.

Fine, Kerry may have been a brave man during the war. So what ? He does not tend to take a courageous stand in politics. The two things are very different, the context is different and the man is much older. Associating the two is flawed logic.

[formernaderite]

28. I don't think Mass is progressive at all...

...it's an ethnic and cultural voting block of traditional catholic voters who back democrats. Blue collar Boston democrats "can" be as prejudiced and narrow minded as any other group in the country...tradition reigns stronger than anything else.

[CWebster]

30. My problem with John Kerry?

Where to start? I don't like him. I don't like the way he looks, I don't like the way he acts, I don't like the way he speaks or the sound of his voice, I don't like the things he says. He is a stiff and wooden bore and comes across as a snob. I don't like his gimmicks, his macho strutting, his pretentious pontificating, his carping, his phony plastic surgery, his wealthy class elite insider status, his JFK references, his establishment positions, his lack of originality, his propensity to lie, his nasty nature. I don't even like his smile. He is one of the most unappealing politicians I have ever witnessed. Zero charisma and no substance to compensate for it.

[Sly Kal]

32. That and his vote for IWR

John Kerry holds no appeal for me

[CWebster]

33. And if Kerry is the nominee Bush will win

Easy.

[George_Bonanza]

42. The most successful good-for-nothing loser I've ever seen

If only we could be as worthless as him...

Plastic surgery? Who do you think he is, Michael Jackson? Why don't we make fun of Dean's thin hairline?

[aquanut]

34. Kerry didn't take a stand against the Energy Bill

Kerry was one of only three Senators not to cast a vote when the Energy Bill was before congress recently (November 2003).

He knew it was a lose/lose situation so, being the politician that he is, he sat on the sidelines.

Had he voted "Yes" New Hampshire residents would have been very irked (MtBE is polluting NH waters).

Had he voted "No" Iowa residents would have been very irked (Ethanol subsides).

Way to take stand, dude.

That goes for John Edwards as well. He sat that vote out as well.

Men with backbone. Willing to stand up and do what's right for America.

I'm not just dissing them because I support Clark. As a NH resident I take issue to a "leader" turning a blind eye to pollution in my back yard.

Edit: fix typos

[milkyway]

37. I haven't heard much in defense of Kerry that answers my question...

When did he make a stand on principle that could cost him his job (or in the case of IWR and Patriot, the job he wants)? The idea that Massachusetts is not a progressive state (relative to the rest of this right wing country) is laughable. It's given us the Kennedys, Dukakis, Kerry, and it was the only state to go for McGovern.

HazMat, you may very well be right that Kerry will win, but you're validating my point. Kerry may win the Presidency, but at what cost to his beliefs? Right now Kerry is doing his best to be Dean Lite. When he has to answer to the entire country, not just Massachusetts or the Dem Party, will he then move to become Bush Lite?

Kerry has always seemed to me to be a decent guy who's dull as dishwater, usually a reliable Dem, but is also nothing more than a politician that won't go out on a limb if it might cost him. If he's President in this Faux News America of 2004, will he have the fortitude to stand up for what he thinks is in the public interest, even if the majority of the public disagrees? What some people don't understand is that when Americans vote for a President, they are not electing a Representative (a person who will be their advocate and vote as they would wish), they are electing a leader. Will Kerry lead, or will he follow the whims of opinion polls?

To state it more bluntly, is the spine transplant Kerry received from the good Doctor temporary or permanent?

[milkyway]

38. kick. would like some replies to my last post 37. Flames welcome.

[blm]

44. Post 24.

.

[blm]

40. I proved you wrong in 24.

Would you answer this: Name the person who has exposed more government corruption than any other lawmaker in modern history.

[Woodstock]

45. edited

on edit, I don't want to say anything even remotely negative about the candidates at this point. All the negativity going around hurt Dean, and I don't want it to happen to anyone else.