Why do progressives not use the 'Founders' more to frame their thoughts?

[bobwhite]

I always hear the right wing using cherry-picked quotes.

The thing is if you go back and actually read their own words you would find that they were thinking people of reason and science, on the absolute cutting edge of thought. They were products of the Enlightenment, and really the American Revolution was an American version of the Enlightenment.

They exalted reason and rationality, and had a big time distrust of ALL organized religions, especially Christianity.

Many were Deists, or Deist-leaning thinkers who saw a natural god that transcended any one religion.

And they were so damn smart, true genuises - no politician today can even hold a candle next to them. Many were not just politicians, but deep thinkers, and scientists.

Progressives/liberals have allowed themselves to become estranged from the very word 'American'. They've handed the word and the founders over to the right, along with the flag and religion. It's sickens me that they (I'm young) allowed it to get to this point.

I see and hear progressives quoting Che or someone else, but rarely if ever do they quote Thomas Jefferson or James Madison. I guess it's just not 'cool' or 'hip' or whatever. But if you go back and read about the founders of this country, read their words, you'd find they are plenty fucking cool.

The founders of America were pretty amazing people. Truly. So go and pick up a biography of Thomas Jefferson. You'll find yourself inspired, trust me.

[LostInAnomie]

1. Thomas Jefferson also made his own Bible...

... He used a razor to cut out everything that Jesus didn't say because he thought it all was crap.

I don't know why people never bring this up.

You can buy a version of it. It's called the Jefferson Bible.

[bobwhite]

2. exactly, and he called

the apocalypse part of the new testament 'the ravings of a maniac.'

[johnaries]

4. Big seller on Amazon, readers give 4 out of 5 stars!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/080707714...

[FrenchieCat]

15. Interesting....

I'll have to get that one!

I just bought "God's Politics" by Jamie Wallis today, in fact.

[E_Smith]

25. I own it. Its pretty cool.

Reading Jefferson's views on religion had a big impact on my own views. He basically regarded all religions as plagued by superstition while acknowledging the existence of God. He aligned himself with the Unitarian church.

[Clarkie1]

3. I recommend "What Would Jefferson Do?" to anyone who hasn't read it.

This country was founded on a rebellion against corporate monopoly.

[Senator Lamb]

5. I agree

we have let the founders and the flag get handed over to the right without a fight. instead of examining the beliefs they had and the nothions they held on government, corporations, and god, they are simply intertwined with American mythology, the American story to inspire patriotism, nationalism, and our divine destiny. our founding fathers were radicals. its simple, the neocons love of country is dedicated to the state, our founding fathers and constitution are simply items that demonstrate American greatness and uniqueness; superiority. liberals aur dedicated to the ideals we as a country were founded on: free speech, equality, oppurtunnity for all. we uphold the traditions of our country, keeping church and state seperate, making sure everyone can voice their opinion and not feel persecuted or singled out, and fighting against wars that go against our morality. it is we who are patriots because American patriots uphold these common values.

as far as religion goes, our founding fathere' christianity was not based on the medieval ages but enlightment. they were thinkers, philosophers, they questioned, they were scientists. the core of their faith said that god made men all equal (though that would not be entirely fufilled until Lincoln and further on)since god made men equal they all have certain god given rights; we are all equally entitled to those rights. in order to preserve this, religion and state had to be seperated to create a tolerant society. yet of course, the neocons serve as the ignorant masses who repeatedy throughout history seek to preserve the status quo or in fact regress; not thinking about the ideals we were founded on but the seperate culture the majority of Americans were founded on. the same breed of people who have killed Jesus for being a radical yet worship him and seek to use him enforce their own agenda rather than what he preached. they did the same socrates, galileo, martin luther king, history repeats. yeah im done talking

[NotYourPresident]

6. The should. Ridiculous to allow Neocons to "claim" the founders

Last night there was a panel discussion at Cooper Union with contributors to a newly released book, "What We Do Now" - a compendium of writing from Greg Palast, Lewis Lapham, Robin Morgan, Rick Macarthur, Howard Dean, Donna Brazile, Esther Kaplan, and others. http://www.mhpbooks.com/wwdn.html

Robin Morgan talked about the essay, "Fighting Words for a Secular America," published in the the book. Basically laying out the case that Neocons have been busy (and effectively) re-writing history.

Says Morgan, "When Attorney General John Ashcroft repeatedly invokes religion, the Founders must be picketing in their graves. They were a mix of freethinkers, atheists, Christians, agnostics, Freemasons and Deists (professing belief in powers scientifically evinced in the natural universe)" You can read the whole essay here: http://www.msmagazine.com/fall2004/fightingwords.asp .

You can see a re-broadcast of the panel discussion with her and Palast and others on C-SPAN tomorrow (1/23) at 1:00 PM EST.

[radio4progressives]

11. I saw this last night and Morgan sources is from the site i provided...

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

this should be read, studied, remembered and bookmarked by every person concerned about the Constitutional "re-constructionism" (read revisionism) that this administration intends to implement.

Tonight, i actually heard a Republican educator on C-Span refer to Jefferson as a Republican.

[newyawker99]

20. Hi NotYourPresident!!

Welcome to DU!!

[American Tragedy]

7. Thomas Jefferson was fuckin brilliant.

I also suspect that he is a more compelling political personality to invoke to the American people than fashionably rebellious-looking Communist revolutionaries.

[radio4progressives]

10. Here's the link to the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli of ...

Barbary.. aka

"Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular"

by Jim Walker

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html



Some people today assert that the United States government came from Christian foundations. They argue that our political system represents a Christian ideal form of government and that Jefferson, Madison, et al, had simply expressed Christian values while framing the Constitution. If this proved true, then we should have a wealth of evidence to support it, yet just the opposite proves the case.

Although, indeed, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a grounding post for their scientific reasoning.

A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."

go here for full text and more in depth review of the founders and framers thinking of Christianity and religion while drafting the Constitution.

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

[MontecitoDem]

8. I think you are right, but there's a reason

although I revere the Constitution, it's interpretations were basically rewritten after the Civil War. The acceptance/compromise for slavery and the inability of women to vote are two reasons that many liberals prefer to quote our great Supreme Court justices (like Thurgood Marshall) rather than the founders.

but I do agree there is gold there, and we should claim some of it.

[bobwhite]

12. Jefferson was chomping at the bit to get rid of slavery

He wanted to put a passage about it in the Declaration. If you travelled back in time and told him about civil rights and how women can vote, I have no doubt he would nod his head and say 'I knew it'.

The point is that they were on the cutting edge of thought, for their day. And in fact, in many ways, by even today's standards.

I have serious doubts whether Jefferson could even get elected prez. today given his views on religion. So in many ways their words and thoughts are even more progressive than the cowardly simps we call leaders today.

[MontecitoDem]

13. thanks for the info

I very much admire Jefferson. I was just offering a reason in answer to your question.

thanks again for your answer and the thread

[American Tragedy]

14. They were fairly progressive for their social and political context

"The revolution in public opinion which this case requires is not to be expected in a day, or perhaps in an age; but time, which outlives all things, will outlive this evil also." --Thomas Jefferson to James Heaton, 1826.

"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

"Do not mistake me. I am not advocating slavery. I am not justifying the wrongs we have committed on a foreign people... On the contrary, there is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige of this moral and political depravity." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814.

"Nobody wishes more ardently to see an abolition, not only of the trade, but of the condition of slavery; and certainly, nobody will be more willing to encounter every sacrifice for that object." --Thomas Jefferson to Brissot de Warville, 1788.

"I congratulate you, fellow citizens, on the approach of the period at which you may interpose your authority constitutionally, to withdraw the citizens of the United States from all further participation in those violations of human rights which have been so long continued on the unoffending inhabitants of Africa, and which the morality, the reputation, and the best interests of our country, have long been eager to proscribe." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806.

"An unsuccessful effort, as too often happens, would only rivet still closer the chains of bondage, and retard the moment of delivery to this oppressed description of men." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786.

[proud patriot]

9. I do

"Dissent is the Highest Form of Patriotism" Jefferson

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his
country from it's government" Thomas Paine

[mt1000]

16. founding fathers

Well maybe its that slavery thing. Or that child rape thing. Or that grandchild rape thing. Or the removing the right of women to vote (they had the right in 11 of 13 colonies).... but then if white women had the right to vote one of the first things they might go off-n-do would be end slavery and the incest that went with it. Let's not even get into the Hellfire Club and the Satanic bent the elites of this country have to this day.

[bobwhite]

17. huh?

I gotta be honest with you, that barely makes sense.

[newyawker99]

21. Hi mt1000!!

Welcome to DU!!

[formernaderite]

23. Look, it's completely idiotic to take history out of the context....

...of the time. Obviously humankind has progressed from ignorant ideas and practices. I could argue in an offensive manner that there are many parts of the world where the practices you speak of still exist in this 21st century. Yet we understand that cultural norms and progress have not all caught up to our sensibilities.

[mt1000]

27. history lesson

If you take a peek at Jefferson's diaries and his perv incestous interests in his daughters and his predatory conduct it will make your stomach turn... unless you imagine yrself in past history as a male (not a victem of his abuse) and not black, to be bought and sold to work on his plantation. Plenty opposed slavery from the get-go. These 'fathers' were landed gentry slave owners and rapists and and are not my role models. Rape is as accepted today as it was then. Just check a bit into life history of society's cast offs - runaways.

The hypocracy of our nation (grammer flub) bugs me to no end.
Sorry to rant... I feel all better now. Founding Father worship gets me wound up.

[Al-CIAda]

18. I agree wholeheartedly...this works, and at least we will be honest

Thomas Jefferson is a great example.

W W Jefferson Do is an excellent model.

[moodforaday]

19. Good question

Good question indeed, and a good selection of quotes has already been mentioned here. Here's a personal favorite:

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. -- George Washington

Source:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_wash...

Much more detail:
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

[Leilani]

22. Very good post!

You should go to work for the DNC, because they still don't get it.

The Republicans have highjacked our country, our constitution, our founders' intentions, in order to form a more perfect church & corporation.

[formernaderite]

24. Excellent post....I'd also add that I find the hijacking of 2nd amendment.

rights by the right, something we need to correct. For many single issue voters, personal freedoms and rights are foremost.

[McCamy Taylor]

26. Cause too many of them owned slaves and were white guys?

There are a few women and some of them were not slave owners for those who find the Founders demographics offensive. Personally, I overlook the the Founders short comings in those respects because of the tremendous shock value you get when you can ascribe some uber-left wing quote to a Founder. Makes the Freepers squirm!