JK's 3rd call for Rumsfeld ouster + NO vote on Rice = Increased antiKerry

[blm]

postings. Many using RNC talking points and media lies.

Add Kerry's call for transparency in the voting process starting with an investigation into voting problems and you can see why some want to work against his credibility.

Not too hard to figure out.

And if you KNOW you don't use RW talking points in your criticisms, then my post is NOT targeting you and you should know the difference.

[mike_c]

1. not all of us who were less than impressed by JK's candidacy...

...are RW trolls. Some of us are left wing trolls....

[blm]

13. So was David Horowitz.

But, surely you can see that there are those using RW talking points who have increased their presence lately?

And surely you can agree that Kerry shouldn't just shut up and go away?

Those who do want Kerry to go know that only benefits the Republicans.

[LittleClarkie]

18. What does how you felt about his "candidacy" relate to how you feel

about whatever he does from now on? Does not liking him as a candidate mean that you don't like him as a Senator? If he were to do something you approve of, would you refrain from supporting him because you don't support him for 2008?

Could we possibly stop fighting primary battles, either from 2004 or 2008 and try to work together to get some things done?

How about it, folks?

[cestpaspossible]

19. That's the past. What about now?

Do you support Kerry's call for Rumsfeld's ouster? Do you think he did the right thing in voting against Rice? Should he introduce legislation for and continuing to advocate for national voting standards and tranparency in the electoral process, even if perhaps you think he should be using different rhetoric? He's started a PAC to help support Democratic candidates in the 2006 midterm elections... do you think it's a good idea for him to raise money for other Democrats? What about his call to provide health care to every child in America? Do you think that is something worthy of support?

[mike_c]

24. absolutely, on all counts!

Do you support Kerry's call for Rumsfeld's ouster? Do you think he did the right thing in voting against Rice? Should he introduce legislation for and continuing to advocate for national voting standards and tranparency in the electoral process, even if perhaps you think he should be using different rhetoric?

My comments in this thread were NOT meant as criticism of Kerry-- I've done that elsewhere-- but rather were intended to show that not all of us who opposed his candidacy-- and are critical of the stances he took then-- are RWers, as the original post suggested. My criticisms of Kerry stem from the exact other end of the political spectrum.

[KittyWampus]

20. Well, The Incessant Spewage Is Not Only Destructive It Gives Trolls

plenty of room for cover.

Congratulations to all the Pure Democrats. The disruptorts enjoy imitating you.

[blondeatlast]

28. That's my problem with it. Legit DUers can complain,

but it allows the trolls to impressively up their post counts as well.

The HF interns on the boards are learning some impressive tricks of the trade lately.

[Cheswick2.0]

51. Incessant Spewage is in the mind of the beholder

[Cheswick2.0]

50. unfortunately the left wing trolls often use the same talking points as

the right wing. I guess it is convenient. They do/did the same to Gore and Dean.

No kerry fan here BTW.

[noamnety]

2. Hey, about that kerry guy

wasn't he in a photo with Jane Fonda?

(just thought I'd save someone else the trouble)

[Jacobin]

3. Some of us who supported Kerry and gave him money

(even though some of us preferred a different candidate) are quite upset that he has waited until NOW to do what he should have been doing during the campaign.

If your suggestion is that we are somehow trolls or disrupters, I would suggest that you are incorrect.

Some of us might like to see a new face in 2008. I know I would.

The fact that he is NOW doing what he should have been doing for the past 2 years is simply evidence that he does not strategize well.

[lachattefolle]

6. AMEN! He's supposed to be a closer, not run the race after it's over. n/t

[Kerrytravelers]

7. How do we know what he was doing before?

Cam was involved from the very beginning working on election fraud, but with little proof beyonf just gut reaction, what can he do?

Remember, we don't want to play into the MSM's idea that we are all tin-foil wackos. But now, we have two elections run by the same people that have some serious problems.

Reform is slow. But, having been close with the election, I have great faith that there is more to the story than we know at this point. I am willing to withold judgement until the whole truth is told.

[blm]

15. Jacobin, YOU know you. Did YOU post antiKerry threads out of the blue the

last two days?

Come on, if you know it's not you, why try to knock what I'm saying?

[Jacobin]

31. I don't think its helpful to lionize John Kerry at this point

No, it wasn't me, but I agree with many of the sentiments posted.

Prior to Kerry's nomination I was a very enthusiastic supporter of Howard Dean. I thought it was a mistake for the old line dems to have excoriated him in Iowa. However, he was the nominee and I supported Kerry and gave him money once he was nominated.

At this point, I do not support Kerry in 2008. I think we need another candidate for many of the reasons stated by Kerry detracters of late.

I think some of the anti-Kerry diatribes we are seeing now are the result of his pusilanimous positions prior to and during his candidacy and his (what I consider) new-found democratic ideals. A day late and a dollar short.

There may be disrupters here piling on Kerry, taking advantage of the white hot reality of his new-found democratic character and ideals. I'm suggesting that is more Kerry's fault than anyone else's. He leaves himself open to these criticisms by his actions.

Anyway, nuff said.

[blm]

39. well, I disagree.....I always saw his principled nature as a great

attraction. I also know his record of service over the last 40 years is one to be admired.

[comradebillyboy]

22. amen, brother

my thoughts exactly

[LittleClarkie]

23. Some of us aren't fighting 2008's battles yet

Can you support good action from a politician whom you don't support in the next election? Would that be a possibility?

Why do I get the feeling this is going to be a loooooong 3 and a half years.

[Jacobin]

32. It's just a very stark reminder of what he DIDN'T do in the last

four years. That's all.

Now he's figured out that he has to stand up to Bush*. Yippee. We figured that out four years ago. A leader he is not.

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Agreed. I supported Kerry as soon as it became clear he

would be the nominee. I would have preferred Dennis Kucinich because Kerry is not far enough left for me.

Kerry's campaign was not as strong as I'd have preferred it to be, particularly when he allowed the SwiftLiars to attack repeatedly, and his early concession shocked me. He folded his tent before the votes had all been counted, not just before any recounts could be done.

I'm pleased when Kerry, or any other public figure, publicly supports positions I agree with.

But, as an American, I have the right to criticize John Kerry and he doesn't get a pass because he is a Democrat. Of course, when he acts like a true Democrat, I don't criticize him.

[FrenchieCat]

4. I am not AntiKerry.....I like John Kerry and

Kerry SHOULD BE doing the right thing....so that's not the point. When does a politician get lionized for doing his/her job? I applaud Kerry for doing the job that Kerry should be doing.

But I am against Kerry in '08. Period.

[Mojambo]

9. I share your sentiment

I applaud and appreciate Kerry's efforts. I hope he attacks like a bulldog for the next 4 years in hopes for another run.

I won't be supporting his run, but I'll be damned if I'm going to slag the guy for his efforts (no matter how late they are) when there are many democrats who STILL aren't fighting.

Bitterness is one thing, but to throw away a powerful and visable political force in Kerry (when we are very short on Democratic voices as it is) just because we're pissed about his 2004 campaign is not very smart. IMO

[blm]

17. NOT the point. The threads KNOCKING him the last two days using RW talking

points are UP for scrutiny. If that's not YOUR posts then you should know you are not being referred to in the OP.

[LTRS]

47. Oh please... some of us expect something

from our party leaders, and SOME OF US apparently are blindly devoted to anyone with a (D) after their name. Reminds of the rethugs who claim that dems who don't support the debacle in Iraq are unpatriotic.

Blind devotion hurts the party much more than honest criticism. So my considered opinion is that folks who insist on blind devotion are part of the reason we keep losing.

[blm]

53. And those who are too ignorant to look up facts before they post

have no opinion worth considering. I think willful ignorance is a big part of the problem.

[LittleClarkie]

26. That's fine

But I don't think we're looking for lionization here. There's got to be a middle ground between bowing down to the man and saying "Too little, too late" at everything he does.

It's the negativity that gets to be a drag, for me anyway.

A reasoned account of where people are coming from would be appreciated, by me anyway. But the drive-by snarky comments from folks who actually seem to be enjoying themselves in their rush to shout "He's standing up for us! He's got our back!" Or the right wing talking points inherent in "Yeah, right Kerry! Go home to your fancy mansion!"

It's just hard for some of us to realize that some other of us agree with the right wingers about our former candidate. It's also hard to realize that some are still fighting 2004 primary battles, and others are already fighting 2008 primary battles.

That's the view from this broad, anyway.

[rachelbirds]

37. agree

I wouldn't support him next time. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. His past behavior since Nov 3 isn't anything to brag about.

[politicasista]

42. Wow Frenchie, you sure are hard on Kerry

:cry:

[KerryDownUnder]

52. Have to agree

I have no problem with what Kerry is saying. The jaded/cynical part of me sees these votes and e-mails as nothing more than pandering but why be a pessimist when it takes the same amount of effort to be an optimist?

That said, I won't be supporting Kerry either.

[el_gato]

5. why are people so eager to engage in hero worship

My concerns are more important than support for a politician.
Let the bushbots fall into the hero worship trap.

[Kerrytravelers]

10. I'm not for nor against a Kerry '08 candidacy...

let's see what happends in the next few years before soildly making up our minds.

[GRLMGC]

11. I agree

It's four years ahead (well, I guess three) before we have to make up our minds. We don't know what's going to happen or who we are going to support. Let's face it, politics is full of fickleness.

[Cheswick2.0]

54. that sounds like a plan

imagine waiting to see how people behave in the next four years before deciding to support them for President? What a concept.

However I have to say that based on actions over the last several years there are democrats who I am hoping decide to run or who I would support before anyone else. One is Dean the other is Gore and I would support Boxer anyday.

[LittleClarkie]

27. Why are some so eager to frame this as hero worship

If Reid does a good thing, I will support it.

If Howard Dean does a good thing, I will support it.

If Hillary, and here I am getting closer to how some of you feel about Kerry, does something good, I will support it.

Even Joementum. If he coughs up something good, and takes good action, I'm not coming out with "too little too late."

It's not about hero worship, its about not stunting the effectiveness of someone who might just be trying to fight the good fight, just not in the exact way or in the exact time that some folks would like him to.

If he does a good thing, I would hope people could forget 2004 or 2008 and say, "That is a good thing. I will support that good thing."

It is about the good thing.

(I think I must have swallowed Martha Stewart. Free Martha, indeed.)

[emulatorloo]

33. It is an issue of RIGHT WING TALKING POINTS and MEDIA LIES used to bash

good Dems when they do Good Things.

How is it hero-worship to point this out?

[robbedvoter]

8. There are responses to "so is flamimg kerry a 24h thing for ya" threads

Most start as tributes - and frankly they are over the top and deserve smacking down. I give him credit for today's vote - but the unhealty vortex around him is self inflicted.

[Kerrytravelers]

12. So, let's say in 2008, Kerry wins the primary again...

are there people who wouldn't vote for him and perhaps subject this country to another 4 years of republican dictatorship?

You may have to hold your nose to vote, I don't care, but you wouldn't actually NOT VOTE would you?

In fact, you should hold your nose and work on the campaign again. Why? Because we can't take another 4 years of these war mongering nutcases.

So, for me, because I really want to see the end of Republican theocracy, I will work for and vote for whomever the Democrats seslect in 2008.

[robbedvoter]

14. Franlky my dear, I dunno if Earth will be here by 2008.

[Kerrytravelers]

30. I have to hug you, 'cause that was too funny for just a hi-5!

:hug:

[mike_c]

40. I did not vote for him in 2004 and would be *unlikely* to vote...

...for him in 2008. I qualify that because a lot could happen between now and then, and I can't predict the future. But nothing that happens between now and 2008 can change the reasons Kerry did not make muster for me last November, so even if he's a liberal saint between now and 2008 I'll always wonder about the baggage he's carrying.

[Kerrytravelers]

44. Mike_C

If you live in a Blue state, then Kerry not receiving one vote didn't matter, but if Democrats in red states decided not to vote for him, then those Democrats essentially handed the vote to Bush. Sometimes, we gotts hold our nose and look at the bigger picture. By November, the choices were really either Kerry or Bush. As much as I would love to see third parties shake things up in our stale two-party system, this was not the election to vote on principal. It was the time to get rid of *.

[LittleClarkie]

45. Looks like he's a Californian according to his site

So his was pretty blue.

Imagine if it had been my state of Wisconsin. We squeaked into the Blue category.

[mike_c]

49. yep, I'm from NorCal....

[angel54321]

16. The point is......

Our troops are getting the raw end of the deal and Rumsfeld SHOULD be held accountable. He needs to be REPLACED. Sometimes you have to swallow a bitter pill and do the right thing and doing the right thing is signing that letter. How can anything be accomplished if everyone is backstabbing.( sound familiar?) Let us come together and NOT ACT like the majority of the dem senate, congress, and house, people!!
Please sign it. I cant stand Rumsfeld!!
http://www.johnkerry.com/

[Old and In the Way]

21. Right as rainwater, blm.

I'm so enjoying Kerry's leadership in the Senate. Disappointed that 50% of America is unable to get past party labels and chose to vote for ignorance, incompetence, and criminal greed instead of character, integrity, and leadership. They'll learn soon enough.

[robbedvoter]

25. I now agree with you - after seing...uh...outsiders, stirring s*

in the guise of other candidates supporters. Please people look at the intent of these posts (i.e "why Kerry lost") before engaging in a food fight. I alerted the mods on that.

[LittleClarkie]

34. I wish I had as good a handle on that as you do

I can't always tell without a scorecard or something.

But then if I make a list, I'll feel like Nixon. Oh the trials and tribulations...

[Redleg]

35. I agree- it's amazing that when Kerry does something good some attack

him as opportunistic. If guess if a person dislike Kerry, that person will infer the worst about Kerry's intentions.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. The thing is, blm, only legitimate DUers will bother to read

your comments while the trolls keep racking up posts. DU has gotten so big that we don't know many of the posters and some are surely trolls who have somehow racked up over 1000 posts. Ousting the trolls is a grand idea, but silencing those of us who are real liberals annoyed with Kerry is a bad one.

If Kerry is to have a future in national politics, he needs to mend fences with a lot of us who supported him and now feel he betrayed our trust. I don't know that I can trust him again, frankly, but if I ever do, it won't be because of people telling me to trust him. I do take into consideration what you and one or two other long-time DUers say about Kerry. Still, HE has to show me that he's worthy of my support. He got a couple of things right this week. If he were more in tune with us, though, he would have realized that Christmas 2004 was a bad time to be seen chatting with Dennis Miller at a party given by Arnold Schwarzenegger, while seemingly ignoring the voting irregularities which many believe cost him the election.

[blm]

41. I am quite certain his chat with Miller was not "pleasant" as some believe

and he was with his many other friends as well, who gave much support to the Dem party.

Kerry will uncover vote fraud the only way it can be done with a hostile, Bushmoonie media and court system, through a deliberate, investigative process that ensures transparency in the process. I just hope it will be ready before 2006.

[NYCGirl]

43. How can you be certain what they were talking about?

Perhaps they were talking about movies or something. As much as I dislike Dennis Miller, people of opposite political views have been known to have a conversation, maybe even be friends.

[ClassWarrior]

46. You go, blm...

(ooops... I meant to reply to the OP...)

Never Give Up.

[LTRS]

48. You are quite a dreamer - I'll give you that!

Unfortunately, you are in for a big disappointment, I think.

[blm]

56. Good thing you haven't been right, yet, have you?

Why should I listen to the advice of someone who doesn't post FACTS and actual voting records and instead uses quotes from DICK CHENEY to make a case?

[Stand and Fight]

38. Good points!

:kick:

[rodeodance]

55. No other Sen. has stood up and called for Rummy firing have they?

Kerry is doing the right thing!! He cares what happens to the troops.

[SunDrop23]

57. I support him 110%

Give em hell John.

[NYCGirl]

58. If disruptors are here because of Democratic ballsiness, they'd be gunning

for Barbara Boxer, not Kerry, IMO.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

59. Oh... she's on the short list for '08 nominee?

I missed that.

[NYCGirl]

60. You never know.

Edited to add: She's the new rockstar in the party.