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We fail to understand the extremity of the "pro-life" position!

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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:10 PM
Original message
We fail to understand the extremity of the "pro-life" position!
Reading the recent thread on abortion, it became clear to me that many people do not understand how extreme the "pro-life" position is. If you treat the fertilized egg as if it were a person deserving full protection of the law, that logically leads not just to banning abortion, but also:

* Banning any contraceptive that potentially prevents impantation, including the pill.

* Banning a wide variety of other medicines that also have this as a side effect.

* Banning fertility treatments that create multiple zygotes through in vitro fertilization, many of which are later discarded.

* Banning any form of therapeutic cloning.

* Bringing the weight of the law to bear on women's monthly cycle. Somewhere between a third and a half of all zygotes naturally fail to implant. What measures become desirable, if we view these as people?

This extreme view needs rational and effective opposition. Yes, we each have a biological origin. But that does not mean that we need to hold that biological beginning in particular reverence. An abortion in the early stages of pregnancy, when the fetus has not even developed a functioning nervous system, is not a tragic and sad choice. It simply is a choice. We need to stop nodding our heads in emotional agreement that there is anything innately unfortunate in people making choices over these reproductive stages. That gives too much power to the fetus fetishists, before discussion even begins, and allows the extremity of the "pro-life" position gain a semblance of normality.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kind of clashes with the micro-biologist conspiracy theory that
someone is planning to reduce world population by 4 billion using DNA sequencing? eh?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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lutherj Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Have you seen this conspiracy theory elaborated anywhere?
Any links? I'm a sucker for conspiracy theories.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. So a search on DU.
Micro-biologists are kicking the bucket in unnatural ways. Why they're getting off'd is the big question.
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ThorsHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Please differentiate between pro-life and 'pro-birth'
Many true pro-life people are not at the extremes you mentioned, and would rather see it as legal/safe/rare than illegal/common/dangerous. Things like sex education, contraception, RU 648, etc are fine with people like this, as they will greatly reduce the number of abortions. You're never going to get the far right (the extreme that you mentioned), but some of the moderates will be willing to listen. The key is getting the message across clearly, as (like you said), there needs to be rational and effective opposition.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why is RU486 more acceptable than a surgical abortion?
I don't understand why there are significant ethical and legal differences between an abortifacient and a surgical abortion. Can you explain that to me?

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DIKB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Less invasive.
That and the child has almost no time to develop at all. Not even the most basic awareness.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. That has entirely to do with stage of pregnancy, not means of abortion...
The six week fetus is the same, whether aborted using RU486 or a vaccuum aspirator. Yes, I agree, at that stage, it's pretty ridiculous even to debate the personhood or moral importance to the fetus. As I wrote, terminating a pregnancy at that stage is just a choice.

As to the "less invasive," yes, there are medical advantages to the use of RU486. But I'm not sure how that has any ethical ramifications. If a six-week pregnant woman chooses surgical abortion, because a pre-existing condition counterindicates RU486, does that in any way present an ethical dilemma that she would not face if able to use RU486?
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ThorsHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Sure
My understanding was that RU486 prevents viability, whereas surgical abortions occur later on. Someone had posted earlier how the far right has blurred the lines, which is what I think is causing all the confusion.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. RU486 causes an abortion.
If I recall correctly, it can be used through the ninth week. It is an alternative to surgical abortions in the early stages of pregnancy.

You might be thinking of Plan B, which prevents implantation if taken the day or two after intercourse.
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ThorsHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Thank you, I did not know that, I was thinking of Plan B
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. I suspect you're confusing RU486 with EC
Emergency contraception (a high dose of birth control pills) is taken within 72 hours of intercourse to prevent implantation. RU486 is taken in early pregnancy to induce miscarriage, and a follow-up surgical abortion is sometimes needed if not all tissue is expelled.

The fetophiles like to confuse the two, refering to them both as "the abortion pill."
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ThorsHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Yes, that was it, EAllen corrected me above (nt)
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Didn't see that until I'd already posted.
Sorry 'bout that.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. To pro-lifers, it's not any different
Most of them have a problem with RU486, and were opposed to the FDA approving it, which eventually did happen during Clinton's administration. They are trying to get Bush's administration to rescind that approval.

The freepers are forever citing a case in which a young woman died after taking it. They also continually refer to her as a child, although she was over 18, because her father is suing the clinic that distributed it to her. One of the issues in the case is that the young woman did not seek medical help immediately when she started having complications. Maybe Bush's tort reform plan will end the lawsuit?

Most protestant pro-lifers are not against birth control, at least not for people who are married. During my holiday week, I watched "The 700 Club" one day and Pat was taking questions from letters and such. One was from a woman whose husband wanted to get a vasectomy, but she was afraid that it was forbidden by the Bible. Pat responded "Do you know how many women wish their husbands were willing to get one?" He went on to say that there is nothing in the Bible prohibiting contraception, and that he understood her philosophy about "If God sends us a child, he sends us a child", there's nothing wrong with contraception, unless you're a catholic.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. these people you mentioned have adopted the meme
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 04:37 PM by Malva Zebrina
"pro-life" the slogan adopted by the extremeists and the not so exremists religious believers, and on the other hand, are fully and tacitly conjoined with abortion rights and abortion.

Can you explain how that parses out? Doesn't that make your mind run in circles?

Once more, as in the "support the troops" meme, people have succumbed to sloganism and in this case it is "pro-life" and nothing could be more amusing when those very same persons approve of abortion.

Those people you mentioned are "PRO-CHOICE' and not PRO-LIFE.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is a problem for me. On the one hand I agree that
first trimester abortions make sense, but.... losing babies that same age that I wanted so desperately to have... WAS very tragic and devestating. Fortunately, my spiritual beliefs have room for me to understand that the two children I have now may very well be the two I originally could not carry to term, soul-wise.

If you want to fight the pro-lifers, you will have to start at the root of the problem: their thinking that we only go around once on this earth and either wind up in heaven or hell when our life is ended.

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Pregnancy can be joyful or terrible, depending on what the woman wants.
Yes, I understand that it is tragic to experience a spontaneous abortion when one was hoping to have a child. I think it is important to recognize that desire and hope as functions of the individual and her context, and not something mandated by ethics or law.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think your post intentionally distorts the pro-life view...
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 12:29 PM by robcon
eallen wrote: "Reading the recent thread on abortion, it became clear to me that many people do not understand how extreme the "pro-life" position is. If you treat the fertilized egg as if it were a person deserving full protection of the law, that logically leads not just to banning abortion, but also:

* Banning any contraceptive that potentially prevents impantation, including the pill.

* Banning a wide variety of other medicines that also have this as a side effect.

* Banning fertility treatments that create multiple zygotes through in vitro fertilization, many of which are later discarded.

* Banning any form of therapeutic cloning.

* Bringing the weight of the law to bear on women's monthly cycle. Somewhere between a third and a half of all zygotes naturally fail to implant. What measures become desirable, if we view these as people?"


No one, to my knowledge, believes that an unfertized egg is a human. This post is a totally illogical distortion of the pro-life point of view.


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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Sorry for the typo. Meant "embryo." Typed "zygote."
At first, I wondered what the heck you were talking about. Then I reread my last point, and realized the typo. Sorry about that.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. No, in the logic that says a blastocyle or a zygote is a human being
a "baby" with a soul in some cases, lies the fallacy but those who are shouting take no time to figure that out.

They speak of a "potential" human being and cannot see that logic, So,following their logic, a sperm or an egg is also a "potential" human being.

That argument of potentiality is flawed
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. I've posted on this topic before ... their view really, really
scares me.

As a social worker (retired), I can tell you, this society cannot handle the ensuring population growth. The social safety net is collapsing now - any move to curtail reproductive choice would be the end. You would see child abuse, abandonment and neglect rise like you can't imagine right now.
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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. To them, women are just "breeders" who produce a commodity
Proof: in the so-called partial birth abortion band legislation there is no exception for the life of the mother.

And yet, bush says we must pass this law because "all life is sacred."

Unless you're a woman who's become pregnant. YOUR life is not sacred. Then you are expendable, and your life is meaningless because you are just a baby factory.
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Bampa Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. Do you have a source of your info?
I heard something similar to what you describe and YES that is what they reported - very extreme! I think what I heard was an NPR report. If you have any sources that would be wonderful to share and then we should all share with those that would vote with Shrub.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. I am "nominally" pro-life ... and definitely pro stem cell research
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 01:03 PM by Coastie for Truth
...abortions should be legal, safe, rare.

But, to equate stem cell research with third trimester abortions is blasphemy, heresy, taking the Lord's name in vain, and shows complete and total theological ignorance. In the balance, stem cell research is pro-life.

AND I AM A "NOMINALLY PRO-LIFE, PRO-STEM CELL RESEARCH, "PERSON OF FAITH"
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Well, you must hate the radical right's framing of the issue more than me.
"To equate stem cell research with third trimester abortions is blasphemy, heresy, taking the Lord's name in vain, and shows complete and total theological ignorance."

Oh, my. As a secular person, my beef with right-wing fundamentalists is only because they endanger our civil liberties. You, on the other hand, have a serious theological dispute with them.

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I was raised by a radical LEFT WING fundie
My grand dad (lived in a "side by side" duplex with my grand parents) was a radical left wing fundie clergy man. MLK Jr. and the Berrigans and Michael Lerner were (or "would have been" if he was still alive) "his kind of clergy" -- and we moved left - like far far left - from there.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. A lot of them are just really bothered by sexually free women
Many times I've discussed the issue with pro-lifers and their argument devolved into some version of "well if the little slut doesn't want to get pregnant she shouldn't have sex". So arguing finer biological points with them is basically a waste of time. What they want is a return to a society where women are under the thumb of men and shamed for being sexual.
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