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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:15 AM
Original message
Poll question: The Global Question- Why Do Democrats Continue To Lose?
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 09:18 AM by DemocratSinceBirth
We are down to forty four senators and two hundred or so congressional representatives ...A majority of the nation's governors are Republicans.... The four most populous states in the nation have Republican governors....



The first step in any self help program is to admit you have a problem...

We are in terrible shape...

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. All of the above nt
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The Democrats are too liberal? nt
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
41. And too conservative.
I personally support almost all of the Dem's liberal positions. I'm a NYC liberal. But the people generally don't.

And then when it comes time to talk economics what do the Dems talk about? Deficit reduction. Please. How about cutting taxes on working people - no payroll taxes under $30,000 a year? How about an increase in the minimum wage? How about Gene Sperling's national 401(K) plan? How about making it easier to organize unions? Dems ignore working people whose real income is declining and then wonder why they vote Republican because of gun control and gay marriage and Bush's stupid war.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Aren't One And Two Mutually Exclusive
eom
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You beat me to it, and you stated it better. :-) nt
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
40. No . . .
They are too liberal for the populace on some issues (gay marriage)and too conservative on others (economics).
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. How can it be "all of the above"?
How can Dems be "too conservative" and "too liberal" at the same time?
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
42. Too conservative on some issues and too liberal on others nt
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. First, voting machines. Second, many of the above. nt
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
46. Exactly right GOPBasher. Voting machines period, tho there are other
issues that have to be attended to. But if we get the voting machine problem fixed, none of the other problems will amount to a hill of beans in 10 years. Unless the machines are audited every election they are used with voter-verified paper ballots, none of these other issues matters at all.
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
7. The GOP has fewer ehtics than we do
The party with the fewest ethical hangups usually wins in the current political climate.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
48. And the GOP controls most of the media and most of the voting machines.
Combine that with no ethics and you will never see a Democratic government ever again.

Expose and fight the rightwing GOP control of the media and voting machines and democracy will be saved.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. yep --without a
level playing field, you can't really answer the question of why the Dems lose.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'm Flummoxed...
I have done post grad work in Poli Sci and I don't have a clue...
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
44. Get out and talk to working people
and you might find your answer.

You've already heard mine.
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doubleplusgood Donating Member (810 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. the Republicans are ruthless
...and have been for 25+ years, while the Democrats have been colectively stuck in a mental timewarp, still thinking they are dealing "old style" Republicans like Mark Hatfield (former Oregon Sen.), people you could do business with, not the neo-fascist GOP'ers of today.
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seimmud Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. Elitist
Most of the leadership probably views me as some backwards redneck just because I dont live in NY or Los Angelos. If they cant see that most of America does perceive them as know it alls good for nothings (enough to vote them out) then perhaps they need to try to relate to the common American more.

I saw a truck that had all the union stuff but with NRA sticket, BASS sticker and a * '04 sticker.

Same goes for an = sign sticker with the W-the president sticker. What is going on???
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. ???
what are you trying to say?
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Mr dummies-in-reverse
also thought Kerry lost because he's ugly and his wife is crazy. Pay him no mind.
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seimmud Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. my name
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 10:22 AM by seimmud
My name is Seimore Mud thank you.

You think Kerry is handsome and Mrs Kerry is a slice of normal American Pie? Edwards should have gotten the nod. Kerry was a waste of an election cycle.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seimmud Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. Or you may be
exactly what im talking about. So I cant come off as a well sentence forming graduate of Harvard. Am I not worthy of trying to include in the party? Im more right than you would like ot admit.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. OK. What is it that you need in order to vote against the Repugs?
what are we doing that drives you to the dark side? Or, if you are already against the Repukes, what is it we can do to make you more comfortable with us?
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
43. The Dems aren't talking economics nt
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
47. I think there is some truth to this
We've walked away from issues that affect working people directly.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
11. We lose because people are wallowing in Entertainment.....
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 09:35 AM by grumpy old fart
and don't have the time or inclination to understand or find out what's really going on in this country and the world. The Rethug noise machine also makes it difficult for the lazy, disinterested, distracted to get a grip on anything. We are, have been, have become (you pick) an extremely complacent nation.
The only time these folks rouse themselves is when they are directly affected, or scared. In the case of 9/11, they see a President who reassures them, tells them it's all OK, so they go back to sleep. But if the Draft were reinstated, you'd see an end to the illegal Iraq war in the blink of an eye. Sheeple, pure sheeple. That's why we lose. We just can't bring ourselves to lie to the sheeple, by either giving them Bogey men to focus on, or easy solutions to problems too complex for them to focus on....
ok....off the rant now, sorry....
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Guns Aximbo Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. poor leadership in many areas
and that poll sucked
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. my poll sucked...
one less person on my 05 Christmas list....


kisses


Brian
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. The GOP is run like a business, the DNC like a potluck
They have embedded people working full time on their agenda (Rush, Novak, Buchanon, Falafel, et al). We are a herd of cats.

We need to be organized more like an ongoing competing business. A business that sells people a better political experience than they are sold by the GOP. DFA is a big step toward this.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. That's A Good Point....
but this must be a relatively new phenomenon because we were in the catbird's seat for much of the past century...

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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. When Labor Had Power and a Voice, that Voice Was Democrat!
That's how the Donkey made his bale of hay. But Reagan sank the unions one by one, and the manufacturers colluded with him, and here we are.

We are trying to do too many things at once:

1. A massive education/truth-telling/deprogramming of American people and the media/industrial complex.

2. A massive anti-fraud/legislative structuring of free and fair elections.

3. A massive paradigm shift (get people to see an alternative and go for it).

It's way too much to do for any one country---but have you got anything better planned? If doing something improves the chances that you and your descendants will flourish in the future, what alternative is better?

The funny thing is, these fascists think they will get all the goodies and be fine, while the rest of us sink in the mud and die. They don't realize that their goodies come from our hearts, souls, minds, and bodies' efforts. Take away the engine and the car won't go anywhere except down a steep slope. So by saving ourselves and our children, we will be saving all those Rapture-anticipating, got-mine/crew-you, SUV driving morons. Still, there's got to be some bad side effects.
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MAlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. No, the problem is that our leaders are trying to do NONE of those things
and play along much too nicely. There has been some resistance on Social Security, some, but COME ON, this is our fucking program, it's our backbone, we can't let them break our fucking backbones. There should be an outrage, dem congressmen and senators should be boycotting votes.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Yep, we need to kill this thing in the crib.....
In all the "rebuttals" I've seen on MSNBC et al from Dems, I haven't heard one of them say explain how this, once again, will benefit mostly the wall street firms, big business while still leaving future generations on the bottom rungs high and dry.

All the sheeple "know" is that SS is broken and that repukes are trying to fix it by giving them the money instead of the government. We need to get the clear message out that SS is good for at least several more decades, and that the Repukes plan is to enrich their buddies by raiding our most basic societal safety net.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
19. Very simple...
... the Democrats, trying to emulate the Republicans, with regard to issues and fundraising, have forgotten one thing: speaking truth to power.

Nothing more than that. They have abandoned their true base, chasing after political ephemera.

Loss of the ability to speak truth to power. That's it. Period.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. who are their base
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 09:48 AM by DemocratSinceBirth
African Americans

Hispanics

Jews

Union Members (some of whom who vote Pug)

Feminists

Intellectuals

Governement workers...

Who else?


I think we need to tap into (their) base without surrendering our core values... Clinton made some strides in that areas but even he wasn't wildly successful... And we need to win at all levels not just the executive level....
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Absolutely Agree....
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 09:53 AM by grumpy old fart
We try and nuance our message to give some mass appeal, which only muddles the message. Also, where's the vision? We need someone who can not only say that our foriegn policy is driven by oil and greed, but that we will take the billions spent on this death ride and start a energy Manhattan project to put us on the road to freedom.
Yeah, I know, well a fella can dream, can't he?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
21. They have a better echo chamber
Everything people believe to be wrong with the Democratic Party is based on bullshit that has come out of the right wing echo chamber. We'll never win if we keep repeating and believing the bullshit they put out there about us in the first place.
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happyjack27 Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
26. election fraud
well, the last two elections, at least. and people are saying this is a "normal" thing.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
27. IMO, the more we openly
tell the American people by our actions that the Bush policies are correct, the more they will vote Republican. We continuously
insist on having Center Right positions. I am not saying Far left is correct either. Go back to the vote on The War-- our Congress people "Me TOO"
Medicare--our members passed this while Republicans refused to vote for it. What happened when the wrong analysis of the election came out. They were saying this was a values election. Some commentators later revised this analysis. In a kee jerk fashion. "We have to talk about God and faith more". The Republicans have smeared our party as being Godless--now we immediately talk about God. In other words we look like the oportunists the Republicans accuse us of being.

You mentioned in your piece for years we were in the catbirds seat.
At that time---One phrase described the Democratic party. Democrats
stand up for the little guy. Middle class and poor knew withoui question which party stood up for their interests. Now only
half the country votes and we are seen as elitists feeding at
Corporate Coffers. It is unfashionable to talk about the poor.
It was considered Real News when John Edwards spoke of poor in
his two Americas speech.

We would make just as serious error to go far left. Heck as
Democrats we have to reach a point where the average person
can say The Democratic Party stands for-----. I am a
Democrat because.---------

We have to distingush ourselves from Republicans is the bottom line
I realize ia am probabley in the minority but until we we again
identify with the poor and middle class --we lose until our pary
goes out of existence.



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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
28. Other -- Democrats are pussies
Seriously -- when was the last time that the Democrats REALLY stood up and fought tooth-and-nail for something?

I'd also add that the Democratic "consultants" and "strategists" are largely clueless and ineffectual -- they make the same mistakes in campaign after campaign and fail to learn any lessons from it. The lack of response to the Swift Boat ads by the Kerry camp was just one more example in a long line.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. Did you see the latest Washington Monthly piece on consultants?
Link:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.sul...


Pretty damning. Any ambitious Democrat these days should steer clear of these losers.

:kick:
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MAlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
29. Two reasons:
1. We're SPLINLESS and don't stand up for what we believe in.

2. We do not have a well articulated vision of what our society should look like that we work together to move towards. We need an ideal vision so that we can have the initiative on our side to push forward. You win by inspiring people and firing them up, not by being everything to everyone.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Exactly. Inspirational vision, not just bitching and moaning about....
losing "elections", like it's just some kind of horeserace.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
33. disorganized with lots of infighting
Some Dems are hell bent on attacking other Dems.

Republicans manage to frame the debates and define their Democratic opponents. They manage to control the media while still calling it "liberal". They have their whole party working together to win.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
35. We are up against
The richest, most powerful, ruthless, unethical bunch in the history of the Earth. There is no such thing as "too low" for them to stoop.

On top of that, they have been planning and organizing behind the scenes for the last twenty years on how they can fool the American people to believe in their garbage. (Hillary was right about the vast right-wing conspiracy.)

On the other hand, most Democrats are just normal people practicing politics the way most people would understand it's supposed to be practiced. If some of them are spineless, well.....maybe they don't want to get "Wellstoned." Also, the MSM has them constantly worried about everything they say or do because they know it will be turned around on them somehow and used against them.

The only thing that will turn the tables, I believe is massive organization and efforts on our part to expose them for what they are. This includes making sure our party is the opposite: the party of the PEOPLE. Some Dem politicians don't get that part and think they can win playing the Republican game.
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FreeStateDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
37. Repukes are smart.......
enough to recognize and unethical enough to exploit how dumb, racist, greedy or scared most American voters actually are and then frame the campaign to motivate them to vote for their amazingly transparent candidates. Meanwhile the democrats are worried whether they are middle of the road enough for these same voters are not going to make the rational voting decision that democrats try to appeal to. Best chance may be in registering and converting more to our base or start being a lot more unconscionable in our attempts at a broader appeal. Repukes will do anything to win and enjoy victory while democrats never learn but want to be totally noble in losing then whine about how unfair the repukes behave again and again and again. Dean for DNC because he is smarter then they are and has learned on the job.
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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
38. The problem is
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 11:26 AM by Poppyseedman
two fold.

1. The party has let people like MM and Hollywood co-oped the message. It boils down with the American people, if they like the messenger, they will at least listen to the message. Our message did not get though because the average American people were not listening. MM is very polarizing person, you either love him or hate him. He automatically turned off at least 45 % of the population. Not the person you want pushing the message. Kerry was painted as a flip flopper and Americans like a man of conviction to lead them. The message was repeated again and again that Kerry wasn't one. We have a great message to tell, but the average American looks at MM and the Hollywood celebrities and say No, thanks.

2. The party leadership is extremely undisciplined. The party leadership needs to focus on a core message of 3 to 5 points and pound them into the American people. We have far too many fringe groups trying to get the grease for the squeaky wheel spending far to much energy trying not to offend or marginalize too many groups.

As an example: The religious right in this country was basically told by the GOP to shut up get in line and help us win. We'll take care of you after the election. The GOP also gave them a reason to vote. Ballots initiatives in 11 states.

The democratic party needs to do the same thing, where I live, a living wage was passed in my county, it is red state population. It passed overwhelmingly
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DaedelusNemo Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. Yes, living wage wins red folks
You ought to get ahead when you work, dammit. It's as simple as that, and damn near everybody agrees. Yet the democrats have caved on something as basic as that. The pursuit of happiness.

The democrats don't take strong enough stands to be convincing. They have the appearance of doing no more than posturing, trying to reconcile the demands of their money sources with acceptable rhetoric. This is the fundamental problem. Yes, the repubs play the media against them, but part of what lets them do that (besides the $$ put into it) is that the repubs have a more compelling narrative than what the dems present. Media wants drama, not unmotivated nattering.

They try to be the cafeteria food that offends no one, but who wants to eat that crap?
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
39. We lose because the Republicans are brats
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 11:31 AM by Cats Against Frist
They've drug our discourse down into the mud, they've raised propaganda to a new art form, they consistently ridicule, lie, appeal to emotion, and argue with logical fallacies. They project their own bad behavior onto the Democrats and the Democrats do nothing about it. Rush Limbaugh, sweating, and red-faced, yelling into a microphone: "THE DEMOCRATS ARE SO ANRGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" might be your first fucking clue and how ridiculous and unscrupulous the argument is.

These people always exist. There had to be people who supported the Nazis. There were people that supported the military juntas in Latin America, and every right-wing authoritarian government. Because no matter how you want to obfuscate the situation with rhetoric, on the political scale, the Neocon, Corpo-fascist, Christo-fascist faction of the GOP are right-wing authoritarians. And you can quickly see their rhetoric about small government and federalism crumble in the face of forwardin their own interests.

I think another major reason is that all barriers to criticize them have been removed. The press is one watchdog that needs to be taken out to the backyard and shot. Not for their "liberal bias," but for their obvious penchant for making GOP talking points the meat of their news cycle.

The freepers and neocons themselves also want to remove "objectivity," all together -- which is why THEY are so interested in dislodging the role of the press, in favor of making right-wing punditry "the new objectivity." And for many freepers and other dull souls, they have, in fact, a great start on that.

Critcize them with "critical thought?" Not something you learned out of a book, or at a university, or you're "elitist." Nevermind the fact that most scholarly work in the hard and social sciences does abide by empirical research methods for legitimacy. Nevermind that the right-wing has their own elitist intellectuals carefully hidden away in their own ivory towers, using the "philosopher king" and Straussian beliefs to justify lying to and manipulating the "freep sheep."

And if all else fails -- there's always God. You can justify any fucking thing with a little "god rhetoric," because no one can ever "prove" you wrong.

Add 200 million or so completely detached, distracted, terrible stewards of Democracy, many of whom have a pre-programmed totalitarian brain, and you have a problem. When most people aren't listening anyway, the default is to the right. Why? Because, as someone said, they make so much "noise." They repeat their talking points loudly, and they repeat them often, true or no, and at the end of the day, they make a "new truth." A very subjective truth.

Of course, no analysis would be complete without a little trashing of the Democrats. I'm sorry, but the only way to beat them, right now, is to make more noise -- enough to back them into, at least, a reasonable discussion. Use their tactics of false binary, tu quoque, style-over-substance, ad populum, false dilemma logical fallacies, appeal to emotion, and beat them over the head with it.

I am ashamed that the Dems are not all the fuck over this "paid punditry" thing. If it were the GOP, by now, they'd have their entire flock thinking that every left-wing pundit was paid. It's the perfect opportunity to play hardball with the GOP -- you don't even have to SAY that all right-wing pundits are paid. You just have to "ask the question" OVER and OVER again -- "HOW CAN WE BE SURE??????" I mean we have two instances, which is two more instances than they need to start slandering the Democrats.

Other than that, I think the Democratic image needs to be re-vamped. Some of the "identity politics" need to be minimized, and the idea of REAL FREEDOM (not right-wing authoritarian approved freedom) civil liberty, the benefits of a secular society, et. al., need to be hammered. In addition, I think that the Democrats should ONLY push for civil unions for everyone, support gun rights, support less federal bureaucracy, and apply federalism whenever possible (which would NOT include civil rights), and launch a viscious union campaign.

There are a lot of reasons why the Democrats lose, and I think of my Dad as the perfect example. He's socially conservative (never met a gay man or woman), racist (met like three black guys in his lifetime), just religious enough to have caught onto right-wing Christian dogma (doesn't attend church, but thinks God didn't create Adam and Steve), xenophobic (hates brown people and everyone from other countries) and has less than no clue about civil liberties, or the philosophy that GAVE us the Bill of Rights, and how it runs CONTRARY to many GOP authoritarian right-wing policies. He also believes that no social commentary outstrips money. Is real music more important than Jessica Simpson? "Never mind that, good for her making money in America." Does it matter that marketing her tits to 9-year-old girls makes one in five of them anorexic? "That's their problem." etc. He believes in the superiority of America, the white man, and core 'murican values, doesn't care about the environment or animals, etc. Loves guns. Hates welfare. Our family makes over $70,000 a year, he's made a bunch off the stock market and they're overweight and both he and my mom have giant cars with yellow ribbons on them.

Typical Republican mindset, right? He voted for John Kerry. In fact, except for voting for Reagan the second time, he's never voted for a Republican for president. Why? Even he could see that Bush was a criminal and a clueless dumb ass.

Now, what convinced him? Here are the things that are his weaknesses:

1. He belongs to a union, and he works in maintenance at a public school.
2. He thinks the power elite completely controls his destiny and that he has very little to say about it.
3. He believes part of being a good citizen is to pay your taxes.
4. He believes in entrepreneurship, but DISAGREES that people who make all this money are treating society responsibly, or owning up to their own "personal responsiblity."
5. He watched F9-11, and pretty much stays away from the talk radio pundits. He swears he hates Limbaugh and Hannity, and he doesn't watch Faux.
6. He always votes.
7. He supports gun rights, but he's smart enough to know that NRA scare tactics and the assault weapons ban isn't going to take away his right to shoot deer & targets. He doesn't want "inner city blacks" to get uzis, so he was pissed about the assault weapons ban being lifted. (But if it was just white, rural guys who could by a Howitzer, that would be fine. Apparently he's never heard of "Timothy McVeigh").

I personally think that what's stopping him from being a Republican is the fact that he's not really religious. As they said, this is the difference between much of the vote. And he thinks the Bush/God talk is ridiculous. Imagine if he wasn't in a union, or listened to Hannity. There would be no hope.

My mother is BASICALLY the same, except that she thinks gays should marry and adopt kids, because there are too many kids without homes, and she finally admitted to me that she is VERY reluctantly pro-choice. It breaks her heart, but she mistrusts the motivation of men more than anything, and doesn't want them to have control over womens' bodies. She also HATES rich people and corporations, and is unlike my Dad in the fact that she doesn't agree with making money at all cost. She also cares about the environment. And she is pro-union.

But she is mildly racist and xenophobic, barely religious, and moderately socially conservative. She hates Bush with a passion, however, and calls him a "dumb fucker," every chance she gets.

For her, it's a matter of sentimentality combined with HUMILITY that makes her support the Democrats. She doesn't like welfare going to lazy inner city blacks, but who is she to say what some people need? She doesn't LIKE the idea of gays raising children, but children need people to adopt them, so they don't have to grow up in an institution. (Though I suspect that gays, like most hetero couples, clamor for the healthy white babies and toddlers). She is scared of terrorists, but doesn't see how killing Iraqi children puts us in the right.

Freepers are sentimental, too - they're sentimental as shit. They worship the military, fetuses, etc. -- they have their narratives. Both sides say that the other is ruled by emotion. The fact is that they BOTH are, the difference between the conditions is that most sentimental, humble people become Democrats. Most sentimental resentful and self-righteous people become Republicans.

I know this is long, but hopefully it has some information for somebody, in it.
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