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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:18 PM
Original message
Poll question: Retrospective: If Saddam had WMDs, and you were 100 percent sure of it,
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 09:19 PM by Lone_Wolf_Moderate
would you have supported the Iraq War? (assuming you're against the war now.)

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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lenidog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. I am going to have to say yes
I was there for the first Gulf War and everyone in my unit including me wanted to get the job done and get rid of him the first time around.
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Osamasux Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Then they should have finished the job the first time.
I agree that they should have if they could have. Desert Storm was a completely different situation. Iraq had invaded Kuwait and had to be driven out. But you can't just claim a 'do over' ten years later and invade their country again.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. Iraq would not of invaded Kuwait if the US had not
told them that we would do nothing to defend Kuwait.
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Osamasux Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Yes, that was one for the diplomatic blooper reel.
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Osamasux Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. There is no justification for an unprovoked invasion
of a sovereign nation. Many countries have WMD, especially the US. That was just a convenient cover for something they wanted to do all the time.
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. What if he had deliberate plans to use those weapons against us?
Would a preemptive strike then be just? Consider the history of this man. Did you support the First Gulf War?
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Osamasux Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. There was no imminent threat.
Iraq had no means to deliver them. We had inspectors on the ground. He was completely contained. If they wanted to stop the supposed WMD, all they had to do was continue the inspection process.

Yes, I supported Dessert Storm, which was a war to liberate a nation (Kuwait) which was illegally invaded by a foreign power (Iraq). That sounds disturbingly similar to the current fiasco, where a nation (Iraq) was invaded by a foreign power (US).
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. yes, consider his history....
He discontinued his WMD programs 10 years ago. He allowed the UNSCOM inspectors to destroy or seal his capacity to restore them in secret. He publicly avowed that he had done so, for years, and complied with U.N. demands that he document his disarmament-- recall that the U.S. censored those documents before allowing the rest of the Security Council to review them.

Now consider the history of the U.S. and it's allies during this time. It applied a brutal economic sanctions program that murdered over a million Iraqi civilians, including 500,000 children. It bombed and strafed Iraq almost daily during patrol over-flights. It fabricated evidence of WMD programs and Iraq's military intentions before the United Nations, the U.S. Congress, and the world. It ignored all evidence to the contrary-- evidence, such as Scott Ritter's insistance that Iraq had complied with the U.N disarmament mandate-- which has since been show true. Our government lied to obscure and dismiss all evidence of the truth.

Yes indeed, let us carefully consider the history of these events.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. The US could have prevented the first gulf war with a few words.
We chose not to. Were you aware that Kuwait was stealing Iraqi oil? There is no way Iraq would have attacked the US no matter what they had. It's ridiculous to think that they would have. Deterrence works.
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Todd B Donating Member (809 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. Exactly.
My thoughts exactly. I'm against pretty much any type of war, but until the US rids itself of WMD's we have no right to tell any other country what to do. We are nothing more then hypocrites to try and wage war with one country because they have WMD's while we have our own stockpiles all the while.

If a resolution was authorized by the UN Security Council overwhelmingly, then I would support action but that is the only way.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Even if he had warehouses full of the stuff
(which I was certain he didn't, having listened to Blix), he still had no way of launching it against the US. He was not an imminent threat to us. He hand't bothered any of his neighbors since the ill fated Kuwait occupation. Containment was working, and it was only a matter of time before he kicked the bucket.

Invading was stupid on many accounts, and wasteful of our lives, their lives, and our hard earned tax dollars.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. That was a red herring ruse to propagate an agenda of madness.
Don't buy into that meme.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. No, I wouldn't. He did not pose a threat
Saddam did not pose a threat to those nearest to him. Saudi and Iran did NOT want the US to invade Iraq. If anybody had reason to invade Iraq, it would be these two nations.

If Iraq posed a threat, then maybe an invasion could have been justified-- but only after ALL diplomatic options had been exhausted.
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vpigrad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. If he did, it would be a reason not to!
He might use them if we invaded.
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. When we have enough WMD to blow up the world several dozen times over
I really don't think we have any right invading other countries for seeking the same thing.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:28 PM
Original message
no-- if he had WMDs then he would already have shown restraint...
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 09:33 PM by mike_c
...since he didn't use them throughout the period of sanctions and harrassment following the Gulf War. Lots of nations have WMDs, not the least of which is the U.S. Possession of such weapons alone is not sufficient justification for invading and occupying any country unless it is sufficient justification for overthrowing every government that has them.

However, the more important point is that Iraq did not have WMDs since at least the mid-nineties. Hussein told the truth about that, but successive U.S. governments worked overtime to obscure that truth for their own purposes. Well over a million innocent Iraqis died to maintain that fiction during the decade of brutal sanctions and the subsequent invasion and occupation.
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Harksaw Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. and he wasn't presently allowing the weapons inspectors in
If we knew 100% he had them, and he wasn't presently allowing the weapons inspectors in to get rid of them, yes, I would support invasion.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. but our government said that it did know 100 percent that Iraq...
...had WMDs and it lied. No such knowledge can ever really be trusted unless Iraq had demonstrated not only that it possessed such weapons but that it would actually use them-- and events of nearly 20 years previous were no longer relevant, as history has revealed.
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Harksaw Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. I know. Its a hypothetical question. n/t
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. Why?
Do you support invading Russia? China? Israel? Great Britain? Pakistan? India? We are certain that they have WMD. They have just as much reason to use them against us as saddam had.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. Yes he was-- UNMOVIC was on the ground right before the invasion
The US and UNSCOM originally withdrew the inspectors in 1998, right before a joint US/UK air attack.

Saddam had blocked the UNSCOM team from certain areas because he suspected that certain members of the team were CIA spies-- a fact later verified by the US-- which was a violation of the Gulf War truce.

Hans Blix and his inspection team were in Iraq, continuing the weapons inspections that the US ended in 1998. It was Gee Dubya and his allies in congress who forced them to withdraw before the invasion.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. some review of recent history....
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 10:11 PM by mike_c
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KeepItReal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. Only if he had a NUKE, Intercontinental Ballistic Missile to put it in
...and actually SAID HE WAS GONNA USE IT ON US.

*That* is a reason to go to war.
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. NO!
Thank you for asking the fundamental question.

General Zinni led the containment operation against Iraq as head of CENTCOM believed there were WMDs and thought the invasion was foolish. A wise position.

More importantly, some day we are going to be sure that somebody has WMDs, and invading them will likely be just as foolish. Let's start winning that argument now.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. Imagine the clusterfuck it would be if ...
...the insurgents had WMD in addition to the small arms and high explosives they have now!

We have to stop being such a war-like people and start behaving like adults...Too many innocent people get killed and that's bad for our image.






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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. No.
Not at all. I do not support pre-emptive attacks on other countries.

The only way that would change for me is if they found an ACTUAL document of Husseins that had a CONCRETE plan to USE the WMDs on the US on a specific date. Details and everything.

But then, being bush et al, I'd have to wonder if it were real or forged (yellow cake, anyone?).

See what happens when you lie, bush? No one can trust you. You're the boy who cried wolf.

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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. define "WMD"
are you including nukes? and if a military dictatorship with nukes is reason enough for an invasion, wouldn't N Korea and Pakistan be higher on the list?
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. According to "Official U.S. Documents" :
"nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons"

http://www.nti.org/f_wmd411/f1a1.html
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. Not as it was instigated, no.
But I would have had a position not unlike Kerry's. I would want Saddam back on full-time unfettered weapons inspections.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. he agreed to full and unconditional inspections in Sept. 2002...
...six months before the invasion. The inspectors fled Iraq in late April 2003 just in advance of the U.S. invasion. Surely you haven't forgotten that? Indeed, it's quite likely that the timing of the invasion was specifically to preempt the possibility of Blix's team certifying that Hussein was in compliance with U.N. disarmament mandates and consequent lifting of sanctions. Certainly that played at least some role in U.S. censorship of Iraq's disclosure documents (along with concealing the U.S. role in arming Iraq in the first place).
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. No. I didn't mean to imply that he didn't.
I'm saying I would have operated under the assumption that he might comply and waited for evidence of wrongdoing.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. thanks for clarifying-- my apologies for misunderstanding....
eom
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
18. Voted 'No.'
Having WsMD alone isn't provocation enough to launch an assault on a sovereign nation, no matter how "evil" Saddam Hussein was.

Mugabe is as bad or worse. Why not invade Zimbabwe?

If Iraq had no oil, my guess is we wouldn't be there.

The dozen-plus military bases the U.S. has set up in Iraq -- they don't have a "temporary until Iraq can manage its own affairs" feel to them at all.

Karzai in Afghanistan is a former Big Oil executive and our bases there appear to run "coincidentally" along the proposed oil pipeline.

The war was unethical from the start, especially since the Bush administration failed to exhaust all diplomatic options. They never intended to discuss it in the first place, and when challenged, lied through their teeth to allies, the U.N., and the citizenry.

The world judges us by such actions and it disheartens me that red state voters returned this man to the White House. Shame on them.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. This is one of those "What if Spartacus had had a Piper Cub?Questions...
He didn't. And we don't.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
25. Possibly, if they existed in types and quantities
that represented a real threat, and all diplomatic options had genuinly been tried and had failed. In this case, only because they were forbidden to have those types of weapons by the terms of the ceasefire agreement. I would not be in favor of, say, invading Syria for having WMDs.
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Blower Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
28. Here is the BIGGEST question--
IF we were sure Iraq had oodles of WMD, such as 500 tons of Anthrax, WHERE is the discussion (in Congress, etc) of what the risks of BOMBING and ATTACKING unknown WMD caches were?

If I recall correctly, in 1991 they hit only ONE real WMD factory, and the stuff leaked out over hundreds of miles!

So how is it the record doesn't show any discussion of the appropriateness of a bombing strategy in this case...or is their some records concerning this that aren't public?

Congress discussed this for only two days!!!

Seems to me, there was no real discussion because there were no WMD and they knew it. Correct me if I am wrong!
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I think your right
France, Germany and most of the world was skeptical of our intelligence. Why the hell weren't we?
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
30. ONLY if the UN Security Council voted unanimously to invade
Iraq. Otherwise, we are better off improving our national defense, which frankly sucks right now.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
35. it is 100 percent certain that the U.S. possesses WMDs....
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 11:49 PM by mike_c
Is it therefore appropriate for another nation to invade and occupy the U.S.? OK to kill over a million civilians before and during the occupation? OK to install a puppet government? I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
36. No---and I felt that way back in March of 2003
First, if Saddam actually had WMDs, I would have expected him to have used them in case of an invasion. And that certainly would have been unpleasant.

Second, I reasoned that invading Iraq would shatter it and dangerously destabilize the whole region. The cost and difficulty of creating a new stability would probably not be worth the benefits of removing Saddam's regime.

Finally, I could never understand why I was supposed to be so frightened of Saddam Hussein. I grew up during the Cold War, when we were all encouraged to believe that the Russkies had a missile aimed at each and everyone of us. And even if the Soviet Union seemed less and less scary as the 1960s wore on, the new nuclear enemy on the block was Red Freakin' China. Saddam---pffft. A mere pussycat compared to Chairman Mao.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
38. Nope. Many countries have WMDs. They had done nothing to anyone
for over twelve years.

The issue is that it was extremely unlikely they had anything and our government knew it.
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
41. WE have WMDs. Are we also going to attack ourselves?
The whole premise of attacking because of WMDs is absurd from the beginning. We could have thrown a dart at the globe and formed our attack plans from that. What ticks me off is that the majority of the American people actually think Iraq is the only country that had them, mostly because they don't even know what WMDs really are!
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
42. That's the reason I never supported it in the first place...
I didn't want to see Saddam launching chemical attacks on thousands of our troops, or the surrounding nations, like some cornered wild animal with nothing left to lose, just lashing out with all its got.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
43. Imminent threat
"If we do wind up going to war with Iraq , it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize ``imminent''--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs."

That's what I thought then, that's what I think now.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
44. Green Berets. Paratroopers. Assassin. Need I say more?
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
45. Definitely not . Iraq still would've been no threat.
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 03:53 PM by durutti
First of all, it's worth pointing out that "weapons of mass destruction" as it's used by the administration is a term of propaganda. Biological and chemical weapons are not weapons of mass destruction. They aren't effective for killing large numbers of people. They're used because they're intimidating. But they really couldn't have been used effectively in military operations against the U.S.

Now, nuclear weapons certainly do qualify as weapons of mass destruction. But as long as Israel, India, and Pakistan have these weapons, the nuclear aspirations of any country in the region must be viewed as perfectly rational.

The best approach would have been to seek the establishment of a WMD-free zone in the region, thus eliminating the incentive for Iraq and neighboring countries to acquire them.

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