Many of you won't like this...BUT, only Three People were

[deminflorida]

were speaking the type of Progressive Language that could have influenced mainstream America during the primaries...two of them were in position to WIN the Nomination...

WE SHOULD HAVE LISTENED





The NEO-CONS Hate Michael Moore, because they know he has the power and the ability to unmask them for what they really are.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Dean/Clark was my "dream ticket".

Oops, now im outed.

[Pachamama]

21. Mine was too....

:cry:

[Clarkie1]

40. I like Dean, but I just never could see that

Perhaps it's my own shortcoming, but I just can't picuture former Supreme Allied Commander as VP to a good doctor.

Sorry, please don't flame.

[AntiCoup2K4]

46. That ticket would have buried Bush so deep...

...not even Diebold could have dug him out.

[NYCGirl]

48. And that sir (or madam), is the right idea. NT

[janx]

74. That would have been my choice too.

It would have been perfect. A physician governor (reelected four times) and a respected general who was a fresh face in electoral politics.

It would have been historic, especially because both of them had a lot of nonconventional support.

***and before you Clarkies flame me for even suggesting that Wes try for VP*** remember that Wes had not run for elected office before, and also remember how much you wanted him to run as VP (when it got down to it) last time.

But that was not to be. The grassroots of one campaign was co-opted to help take out the people of another.

No populist movements allowed, no sir!

[Tom Rinaldo]

114. Of course no flaming over something like that

I will always hold that Clark would have been our best candidate for President, but I would never flame someone for thinking he should have sought VP instead- because he had never run before or whatever. Neither do I think I should be flamed if I said that Dean would have been better for VP, because he didn't have enough national security experience to run for the top during a war, or for any other reason. These are simply disagreements. They can be passionate disagreements, but that is all that they are. We both have great respect for both men and I would have swung in hard behind a Dean - Clark Ticket and I am sure you would have done the same behind a Clark - Dean ticket. Hell I worked hard for a Kerry - Edwards ticket, but I admit the passion was lacking. Kerry's stance around "voting irregularities" and his tip toeing around them reminds me of his stance around the Iraq war, and that reminds me of why I respect men like Clark and Dean.

[Clark2008]

86. Clark should have been the Commander in Chief

So, I would agree with you if you flipped the order. ;)

But, then again, I would. Just look at my name. :)

[ThorsHammer]

126. I wanted that ticket too (nt)

[jswordy]

133. Yeah, I don't know if....

Dean/Clark would have won, but they would have AT LEAST put up a helluva mighty fight.

I like to think we'd all be getting ready for an inauguration, had they been the ticket.

But even if not, I can guarantee you they would have drawn a much greater contrast with Bush than Kerry did. And that they would have come out fighting from the first minute of the convention on through.

And that, my friends, is why Rove said pre-primaries, "Yeah, run Dean. We know we can beat him."

You see, Karl Rove has read Brer Rabbit, too!

[sportndandy]

2. I like it.

The DLC let us down. Move to the center my ass. The DLC is on LSD.

[AlbizuX]

3. ummm...

how about Kucinich, Carol Moseley Braun, and Al Sharpton.

Like Kucinich..."i'm electable if you vote for me".

granted, they weren't gonna win...but they were also speaking Progressively.

[deminflorida]

5. Agree, they were on board.....

n/t

[AZCat]

8. I don't feel that DK's ideas are any crazier than...

the one president to be elected four times. What's unelectable about his solutions?

[AntiCoup2K4]

49. As sad is this is, FDR would have never been elected today either.

Forget his platform. Just being in a wheelchair would be all the media would need to assassinate him.

[AZCat]

67. And Eleanor - the RW/media would've gone after her like rabid dogs

After seeing how incensed they were by HRC, I can only imagine how Eleanor would have riled them.

Yes, I agree - FDR would not be elected today. They're actually moving to get him off the dime!

[okieinpain]

91. no shit.

[AlbizuX]

106. Kucinich is the guy I voted for in the primaries

I loved his straight in your face, get the U.S. out, get the U.N. in statement...

I wriggled with pleasure everytime I heard it.

[dflprincess]

4. Rep Conyers had nice things to say about Michael Moore this afternoon

Pointed out that Moore was the only one who told the truth about what happened in 2000 when the Black Caucus tried to challenge the vote. And that the only reason Moore is being criticized is for telling the truth.

[Ladyhawk]

6. I would have voted for Dean had he not left before the Cali primary.

As it was, I voted Kucinich. Who the hell knows what would have happened? Maybe Dean would have been prepared for GOP dirty tricks.

I have to admit I don't know much about Wes Clark, but I don't think he's been character-assassinated...yet. That stupid "Dean Scream" thing was really low.

[proud patriot]

13. that's exactly what I did LadyHawk

I supported Dean , but he was out by the time
the California Primary Happened so
I voted for Kucinich.

[calimary]

19. I still voted for Dean in the California primary.

I frankly didn't care that he was out of contention. It was going to be my only chance to vote for him, and I wanted to do it. I knew Kerry had it sewn up, anyway.

[mandyky]

121. I voted for Dean in the KY primary

which was in May!

[lojasmo]

122. I caucused for Dean in the MN primary. N/T

[Crunchy Frog]

85. I voted for Kucinich in the Colorado Caucus,

and was a delegate for him all the way to the State Convention.

I really wished I could have had the opportunity to vote for Clark, and would have if we had had a primary, but it still felt good to not just go with the herd.

[truthseeker1]

7. You forgot Kucinich

But Clark and Dean were my 2nd and 3rd choice. Honestly, DK was my top choice for most ideal candidate, but I admit America is not ready for someone that progressive.

For most realistic candidate, my choice was Clark. He would have pulled in some new people to the party (fence-sitters, Repubs who don't realize they're actually lefties because their reason is blurred by their perceived need to have a leader "strong on defense").

I liked Dean a lot too - he was the first one I campaigned for, before Clark tossed his hat into the ring and before I discovered DK.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Kooch!

----------------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
Same day primaries with ranked voting ballots for the Dems, and
THESE reforms for your town, county, and state.
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Stand and Fight]

130. You forgot Poland!!!

:evilgrin:

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

[pocoloco]

9. You are right and they damn sure won't like the fact

that rove got to pick the Dem candidate for us!!

[moggie12]

11. Pocoloco, are you loco?

Rove picked the Democratic candidate??? How so? What do you mean?

[calimary]

27. He did some world-class mind games on some of us.

Does anybody remember the Howard Dean rally (I forget exactly when and/or where) in which rove was spotted out in public, on the sidewalk, watching the passing crowd of Dean people and hollering "YAY, Dean, Go Howard Dean!"? That unleashed a torrent of comment and second-guessing and hand-wringing about what this really meant. It scared a lot of people into rethinking their support of Dean as a viable candidate - if rove is "behind" him - OMIGOD! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!?!? (Sigh, rend garments, gnash teeth.) I think rove knew exactly what he was doing - sticking a small bamboo skewer in and twisting it, so that we start slowly bleeding to death.

People were second-guessing whether that meant he wanted us to THINK he wanted Dean - because Dean would purportedly be such an extremist or such a push-over and would drive the moderates away so if that's the candidate the White House supposedly HOPED we'd put into the race, then we can't possibly do what they're hoping we'll do, 'eh? I remember people kicking this one around forever, and then it went from the actual event itself to a booster shot for the overall discussion of whether Howard Dean was going to drive key constituencies away and whether the White House was hoping it'd be him so they could grab the moderates who'd supposedly be scared off by him. The "if the White House is eager to run against him, then there must be something wrong with him" mentality.

That REALLY helped bruise Dean, and pretty seriously, too, as I remember it, anyway.

[moggie12]

69. Thanks for clarifying that, I thought there was some......

rumor I missed -- like Rove had intervened somehow in Iowa or something.

I remember what you're talking about: Everybody was trying to figure out if Karl was playing "head games" by saying he was looking forward to running against Dean. Thanks very much for the clarification.

[Cervello]

10. John Kerry Is A Progressive/Liberal

He is one of the more liberal senators in the Congress. The War in Iraq shouldn't be a litmus test to see if someone is a liberal or not. Dean's record as a governor is less progressive than John Kerry's senator record.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cervello]

15. Thanks for the Welcome!

:hi:

[deminflorida]

20. Don't mention it....

and please feel free to sign the Draft Clark petition for 2008.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. I Didn't Know Paucity Of Posts And Wisdom Are Mutually Exclusive...

Also, the mods have warned against bashing newcomers.....

[AP]

18. Seriously. Furthermore, two years ago I thought that the liberal litmus...

...test this year would be the tax code. I wasn't going to vote for anyone in the primary who didn't acknowledge that the tax code has become a system which punishes people who work for a living and rewards people who don't, and that it was killing middle class people and needs to be more progressive and needs to shift the burden off people who work for a living. I've also thought that a liberal litmus test was whether you believed that in times of trouble, the government should defecit spend on investments that would reap rewards down the line.

One of the two candidates mentioned above didn't believe either of those things, and the other didn't seem so interested in taxing unearned income progressively.

[deminflorida]

24. Wrong, Wes Clark wanted to return those who earned $200,000

a year and above back to the same tax level of the Clinton Administration. His middle class tax stance for people making $50,000 and below was the most progressive of all the candidates.

[AP]

28. That's a tax break everyone, rich and poor, would have gotten.

Other candidates talked about adding a second tier to unearned income, which gets right to the heart of the problem: people who are super rich get most of their wealth from unearned income which is essentially flat taxed at 15%.

The real progressives -- if the tax code is your liberal litmus test -- were talking about things that addressed that reality.

[Sparkly]

36. No, it isn't a tax break everyone would have gotten.

Ooooh!!! Ooooooooh!!! Long-term capital gains, the capital-I Issue on EVERYBODY's minds!!! :eyes:

People who are NOT super-rich have these gains also, such as when they downgrade homes. What Clark proposed was boldly progressive, meaning it was NOT a "tax break everyone, rich and poor, would have gotten." Rich people would have seen their tax rate increase 5% on income over $1 million -- resulting in an amount large enough it precludes apologies for not including capital gains affecting the rest of us.

http://www.clark04.com/issues/familiesfirst/

Can't wait to see how far you'll take this one.

[AP]

41. CEOs are not making millions in earned income or from selling homes.

They're making it from dividend income and cap gains on stock sales taxed at 15%.

And they're making it at income levels way higher than 1 mil too.

Creating a second tier of 25% that began at something like 350K would have captured way more income from the people who are paying incredibly low effective tax rates than an addtional 5% on earned income over 1 million.

Look at Theresa Heinz Kerry. Her effective rate of tax was something like 14% on millions of dollars in income because all her income is either taxed at 15% (as cap gains or dividend income) or 0% (for the muni bonds).

Clark's tax plan would have eliminated tax on her first 50K in earned income (if she had any) and wouldn't have touched any of that other income. If she got paid 50K in earned income to do work for a charity and had all the other income as dividends, it might have been a tax cut for her.

How progressive is that?

[AP]

137. I thought I'd get a reply to this post.

[theboss]

45. It should be the main issue when discussing income inequality

Marginal tax rates and the earned-income tax credit are such now, that further tax cuts to the lowest earners are almost pointless. The problem is that the lowest earners are receving less government benefits because the taxes on the upper incomes and specifically on capital gains are so low.

Capital gains cuts are bonanzas for the wealthiest that help multiply wealth at a fantastic rate, while choking off the government.

[AP]

51. ...and increasing earned income rates may add some money

from some doctors, laywers and rap stars, but it's not touching the people who are really getting a free ride today, and those are the unearned income zillionaires -- the corporate insiders for whom this gov't really makes life easy.

[theboss]

53. It also adds to scandals like Enron, because CEOs are paid in stock

I might be doing my tax math wrong here, but I believe that when you receive stock as compensation, you pay income tax on the current value (Unless it is in some type of 401K package, in which case you may pay nothiing). Then when you sell it, you pay taxes on the gain. (I could be wrong and correct me if I am; I'm a health care lawyer, not a tax lawyer). If the capital gains tax is small, you have a huge incentive to get paid in stock, drive up the price, and sell. It's tax-free income at that point.

[AP]

57. My understanding: you pay earned income rates on the value on the

day the rights vest and cap gains rates on the difference between that and the price you sell (and if that's a capital loss, you still have to pay earned income rates on whatever the price was when it vested, and I have no idea what they let you do with the loss).

So, yeah, the do their insider shenaningans to guarantee the wealth and then they get it taxed at half the rate (or less) of what a doctor or lawyer or musician pays on their earned income.

[theboss]

66. Ok, I wasn't sure when the tax is paid

My only stock is in my 401K.

But the point is true, if you are paid in stocks, you eventually pay far less taxes than you do if you were paid in cash.

[Sparkly]

55. We'd be lucky to get back what we've lost

It's a wonder BushCo taxes them at all; by 2008, they'll be miniscule.

I think the OP was about progressive appeal to "mainstream" America to win elections.

[AP]

58. ...and my post is about some other litmus tests for liberalism.

Such as those that actual frame what's going wrong in America in way that is addressed by progressive solutions...and taxing unearned income at higher marginal rates is a pretty good litmus test for liberalism, since that's a big source of the wealth transfer to the wealthy.

[Sparkly]

52. Who proposed capital gains cuts?

Winning more elections would help prevent or reverse BushCo's cuts.

[theboss]

54. Bush proposed and enacted them

I'm saying, a raise in them needs to be a central Progressive/Democratic issue because it's welfare for the wealthy.

[Sparkly]

60. I know -- I'm saying none of our candidates proposed them afaik. n/t

[AP]

63. Edwards proposed a second 25% tax rate on dividend inc over 350K.

It was very progressive, but the media was trying to get Democrats to define liberalism in terms the IWR vote.

[Sparkly]

68. Did it help? n/t

[AP]

109. It helped me identify him as a progress candidate with a plan to solve

the real problems in America that are shifting a great deal of wealth and power to the wealthy and powerful and are therefore threatening democracy.

It's also problem part of the reason why he and Kerry were the only two candidates who did better as more and more voters heard what they stood for.

[theboss]

64. I don't think any proposed raising them though

And if they did, it was hardly a central theme. I think this is a tax issue we can win on if we are smart. More importantly, I think it's a necessary issue to correct the deficit and income inequality.

[Clarkie1]

43. Clark also wanted to place an additional tax on millionaires

Which went beyond Kerry's tax proposal.

I think Clark may have studied the budget and proposed tax hikes that could actually balance it, at least that's my best guess as to why his proposal went beyond Kerry's.

Clark does have an advanced degree in Economics and has served in the Office of Management and Budget, so I don't think he just took the recommendations of his advisors on this.

[Slickriddles]

75. And Furthermore

The Democrats with Kerry got 48% of the votes. Just because Bush acts like he kicked ass I don't have to feel that my butt hurts. Yeah we lost this election cycle, but we didn't get slaughtered. Go back and look at 1984 or 1988, or 1972 for that matter. We got creamed. Bush was an incumbent war-President, with a giant media echo-chamber, and an army of practically zombified "FamilyValues" vote-as-the-Pastor-tells-you-to-vote Xtians. He had sleazy, lying, veterans smearing Kerry's war record, etc etc and still he could only muster 51% of the vote.

[Sparkly]

76. That is true

I don't think the country is overwhelmingly Republican or conservative. Most people agree with liberal stances on most issues, and I really doubt that if everybody who went out to vote had their vote counted, or if everybody had to stand in hours-long lines in the rain, Chimp could have won. Just my never-to-be-proven opinion.

We're talking about a tiny margin, if it even exists. This country is divided, NOT conservative.

[AntiCoup2K4]

56. Nobody with THAT avatar is able to define who's "liberal" or "progressive"

Because the Democracy Loathing Corporatists have no idea what those words mean.

[Cervello]

71. Wow...

That was pretty rude. Are you trying to say you know what I believe in or what my political thinking is based on my avatar?

And BTW, I guess Bill Clinton is a "democracy loathing corporatist".

[RetroLounge]

61. Yes, and he's electable, remember?

Bah...

RL

[Cheswick2.0]

62. nope, not anymore

sorry Kerry has changed and is not longer liberal and he certainly isn't populist. He has voted for some really rotten legislation for the last four years.

[rman]

93. Then how'd you call a Dem who'd oppose NAFTA?

How many voters would actually support a trade agreement that grants corporations the right to sue governments for loss of profit due to regular government legislation (such as environmental regulations) - if only they'd know, if only they'd be informed by the 'liberal' media...

[robbedvoter]

101. Bagdad John? Think he taught them Iraqis about the importance of

voting, having your vote count?

[Norquist Nemesis]

128. Which is exactly why Dean would have appealed

to the 'mainstream' as the OP suggests. The RepubliCONS cooked up the the 'extreme left-wing' label on Dean and the media served it to the American people like apple pie ala mode! Even though we 'Deaniacs' kept trying to present the facts and saying, "No. Look at his record! Here..."

Clark would have been good too, though IMO as VP. Dean had the state governing management experience, Clark had the military government management experience. What better could there have been!

I agree with the OP. :)

[theboss]

14. It's simply amazing how Kerry is not viewed as a Progressive/Liberal here

The man's voting record is unbelievably liberal. His only problem was that he was in the Senate for 20 years, which forces a person toward compromise.

[deminflorida]

17. Tell, John thanks allot for the Vote Fraud Investigation....

Compromise would ya. A concession the day after one of the closest elections in history is not what I would call charging hell with a bucket of water.

[theboss]

22. Yet, Gore - who actually got more votes - is somehow idolized here

Kerry lost by an insurmountable margin. Is he supposed to sit in the middle of Pennsylvania Ave holding his breath until someone hands him the keys?

There was no scenario in which Kerry was going to win this. We don't have the votes to deny certification. And if we did, we don't have the votes in the House.

[deminflorida]

26. Until we pull a real SHIT Storm they will continue to steal elections

...2000 was just a warm-up for these asswipes. They got a taste of blood then, now they are on a feeding frenzy.

[eridani]

90. Howthefuck would you know that?

There has been no real in depth investigation of fraud, and 40% of the voter were case on unauditable machines.

[robbedvoter]

102. Gore fought. he wasn't more concerned about his "image" than

my right. At least up to a point. kerry - well, like other senators did yesterday, "pulled a Kerry" (speeches for us, votes for BFEE)

[AP]

110. Not according to Jeffrey Toobin's book on 2000 election.

He says that Gore's challenge strategy was based on what the NYT editorial page said.

Gore's own advisors told him to ask for a statewide recount ASAP. The NYT said that if he did, it would appear that he was a sore loser and that he shouldn't put the whole state through that trauma (or something like that). Concerned about his image (as framed by the NYT) Gore only asked for a recount in four counties.

It turns out that Gore's advisor's were right: statewide, there were enough votes for Gore to win. And if the NYT really wanted Bush to win, then they were right: the limited, 4 county recount did not produce enough votes for Gore to win.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

123. I've appreciated your many posts on this matter..thanks

[Bouncy Ball]

23. Uh-huh.

Um, Kerry is not that liberal, sorry. Hate to tell ya. I mean I voted for him, but he and I are pretty far apart on the spectrum (hint: he's to the right of me).

[theboss]

29. In the words of Dr. Evil, "Riigggggghttttt"

John Kerry, the man who:
stood against the Vietnam War
supported nuclear freeze
fought Reagan's tax cuts
delved into Iran Contra
support normalization with Vietnam
voted against the '91 Gulf War
voted against God knows how many crazy weapons programs
who received a grade of 100 freakin' percent from the NAACP
who received an F grade from anti-immigration groups
who supports late-term abortions

is not a liberal.

What are we basing this on, one vote on Iraq and some middling support of NAFTA?

[Cervello]

30. Excellent Post!

I don't know why people think Sen. Kerry isn't a liberal?! Just check his votes in his 20 years in the Senate.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. If he were a LIBERAL

he would be for the legalization of marijuana, he would be for cutting the defense budget by 10% and giving that money to public education, he would dismantle No Child Left Behind and put in place REAL educational reform, he would have been advocating the withdrawal of troops from the UN, etc etc etc.

There's liberal and there's LIBERAL. DO you see where I'm coming from now?

Kucinich is closer to what I'm talking about.

[theboss]

32. Oh, is that all?

Let's look at this:

1. Legalization of marijuana. Does he even have a policy on this? He probably does support it to some degree, but that's a fight against windmills right now.

2. Nobody has levied more votes against Defense spending than John Kerry. Christ, Cheney positively buried him for all the defense budgets he opposed.

3. It's hard to dismantle a law that his senior senator/mentor/idol/icon Ted Freakin' Kennedy wrote. I suppose Kennedy is not a liberal either.

4. We have troops in the UN? Are they holding people hostage? I don't even know what this means.

What you are calling for is European Socialist.

[Bouncy Ball]

33. I meant

Iraq when I said the UN.

I was talking about he is not a liberal compared to ME, not Kennedy or anyone else. The original statement I made was that *I* don't think Kerry is much of a liberal. And I don't. You might have to just deal with that and move on.

Did you completely disregard my example of Kucinich? THAT'S a liberal.

Kerry? Sure, he's a Democrat. But not so liberal as you think.

The problem is EVERYONE elected to office right now (with the exception of a precious few, incl. Kucinich) are so moderate to right leaning that people seem to have forgotten what liberal really is.

And did you say socialist like it was a bad thing? I wouldn't do that around here....

[theboss]

34. Who has the better record on abortion?

Kucinich or Kerry? Hmmmm....who's the liberal now?

[Bouncy Ball]

35. Let me ask you something

What side are you on, anyway?

Did you vote for Kerry?

And by the way, one issue does NOT make someone a liberal or more liberal or an ultraliberal, what have you! LOL!

[theboss]

38. Edwards in the Primary/Kerry in the election.

And don't challenge me on my Democratic pedigree. I sat in the WV Supreme Court at age five to watch my mother win a landmark equal protection case, I was campaigning at age six, I wore Ted Kennedy buttons to Kindergarten, and Jay Rockefeller knows me on site.

And you are the one who made marijuana the litmus test for being a liberal, not me? Speaking of which, what has Kucinich done for pot smokers?

[Bouncy Ball]

44. You really latched on to the marijuana thing didn't ya?

You are the one making a big deal of that issue here, not me. I don't even smoke the stuff. It was ONE EXAMPLE.

And what litmus test? You are talking as if **I** determine what is liberal and what isn't when I CLEARLY indicated to you about two posts ago that I was giving MY opinion, nothing less, nothing more.

Democratic pedigree, LOL.

Edited to add, obviously you are either right where Kerry is on the political spectrum or maybe just to the right of him. I find that easy to accept.

So why can't you seem to accept I am to the left of him?

Sheesh.

[theboss]

50. I have no problem with your political leanings

Vote for Greens from now until the end of time. (And I'm not anti-Green at all; there are cases where I would vote for Greens).

But you said, and I quote, "Kerry is not that liberal." I pointed out that he is liberal compared to 90 percent of the country and 99 percent of elected politicians. I mean, he's not Michael Stipe, but if that is going to be the definition of "liberal," we're in trouble.

It's the "that" I had trouble with.

[Bouncy Ball]

72. LOL

Well *I* don't think he's all THAT liberal.

And by the way, I don't vote Green. But hey thanks for the fucking assumption.

[Slickriddles]

77. What You Are Describing is A Radical Leftist

Except the part about UN troops. There is nothing wrong with your positions BouncyBall but they don't describe a liberal. They also don't describe anybody who is going to be elected President.

[Bouncy Ball]

78. I meant to say Iraq for UN.

[Slickriddles]

83. OK, I read that in another post

I was a child of the 60s and had very radical positions at that time. But we hated Liberals. They had gotten us into Vietnam. For many years I was so leftist that I didn't vote at all. The result was Reagan and the first Bush. If you are a radical or a leftist you don't have much choice in a two party system. You can vote for a Liberal Democrat and have a shot at getting someone elected, you can not vote, or you can vote for a third party candidate. Politics in America is designed to cull out the fire-breathing radicals (of the left anyway) not to put them in office. It remains to be seen if the system can stem the current tide of right-wing radicalism. The trick is to unite everybody who is opposed to that and not give in to a tepmtation to split up.

[Geek_Girl]

39. One Vote On Iraq

That's the killer. How can someone who

stood against the Vietnam War
supported nuclear freeze
fought Reagan's tax cuts
delved into Iran Contra
support normalization with Vietnam
voted against the '91 Gulf War
voted against God knows how many crazy weapons programs


Give an evil monkey like George Bush the go ahead to invade another country? He did not stand up for his principles when the country needed him the most.

[theboss]

42. I admit, it's a tough one to swallow

But I'd rather blame Bush for boxing in the Democrats by lying and playing politics with the vote.

[Cheswick2.0]

65. NCLB, Patriot Act

[greenohio]

81. Did that right winger Ted Kennedy vote for those?

I knew he was a DLC plant.

[greenohio]

80. Howard Dean told me he wasn't.

He told me Kerry and the congressional Dems were republican-lite and were going along for the ride. Dean said it. It must be true.

[robbedvoter]

103. Without respecting the right to vote, all these are pretty words

Everything will fly out the window faster than you can list them. Democracy is the sine qua non, the corner stone of everything. And without meaningful vote, democracy is just a cynical pretext for W to conquer nations. (whic bagdad John assisted)

[theboss]

47. Self-deleted.

Oops

[AntiCoup2K4]

59. The only voting record that counts is the one after 12-12-2000

And in that record, Kerry looks pretty damn miserable.

[greenohio]

82. I'm glad we have you to tell us when to start looking at someone's record.

Otherwise we'd all be lost.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Rinaldo]

115. I don't view him as enough of a fighter

That is a graver sin, because results matter. He was once, and I honor him for that. It is not that he is on the wrong side, he is ineffective at advancing our side.

[Bouncy Ball]

25. Dean-Clark

would have been pretty good.

Dean from the north and a governor, Clark from the south and a retired general.

Of course the repuke slime machine (ie: the media) would have found some despicable, lowly, disgusting, dishonorable way to smear them, too.

But they would have made a good president and vice president.

[Clarkie1]

37. I agree; I like Dean, but think Clark would have been better positioned

to win the general election under the circumstances.

I have really come to appreciate all that Dean has done for the grassroots progressive movement, and continues to do.

Clark has indicated he will remain active as well with a new launching of WesPac in the near future and it's good to have his voice out there on CNN to counter the neo-cons.

But really, what can I say. When it comes to my first choice in 08' I've made my decision. And if my first choice runs I intend to make my first trip to Iowa in a few years.

[mcscajun]

70. Clark in 2008!

We need the General. Oh man, Do We.

[ihaveaquestion]

96. Clark was my man!

How I wish he'd gone all the way!

[mcscajun]

116. Mine too...

...he was the only hope I had in this whole thing...I was SO fired up by his candidacy and it just got blown away.

But...We still have hope. We just have to stick with the General. :)

[leesa]

73. You forgot DK. He has spoken it strongest.

[greenohio]

79. I forget, didn't we have the primaries already?

Apparently they will never end for some.

[WonderGrunion]

105. Not only primaries

But actual general elections. It appears that Mr. Electability wasn't.

[bobweaver]

84. Kucinich was by far the best, but as Molly Ivins put it, "he had no Elvis"

[eridani]

92. If you met him in person or heard him speak he sure did

Not photogenic, however. If I had a quarter for every time I heard a woman say "He's SO much CUTER in person!" I'd be set for life.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. cute like in brad pitt, tom cruise circa 1985, matt damon cute

eom

[eridani]

97. Cute as in--

--only decent security prevents him from being overrun by hoards of women with plates of vegan brownies and gallons of massage oil.

[NoPasaran]

125. Molly actually made the Elvis remark about Kerry

John Kerry is in the unfortunate position of being the frontrunner, which you would not wish on your worst enemy. My early take on Kerry was that he has gravitas--sumbitch about bent over double with gravitas--but that he has no Elvis. Minus-zero on the Elvis Scale was my first read. No point in nominating some good and worthy candidate, like Fritz Mondale or Michael Dukakis, if they got no Elvis. The object is to get these people elected. Can't get elected without a soupçon of Elvis. Happily, Kerry seems to have started to do what he most needs to do, which is lighten up a bit. According to a report in Slate, Kerry in Iowa is capable of humor, self-effacement, sarcasm, and other helpful attitudes. Plus, at the end of the deal, he got on a motorcycle and raised an eyebrow before gunning the hog on down the road. A bike?! Now we're talking Elvis.
http://www.progressive.org/aug03/ivin0803.html

[Radical Activist]

87. Those are two people who spoke progressive language

that don't have progressive records to back it up. Talk isn't enough for some people.

[Clark2008]

88. The corporate media absolutely ruined it for Clark and Dean

With Dean, they put him under such a microscope that NO human could endure the pressure - it cultivated itself with the alleged "Dean Scream" that really was more of a rallying cry (if viewed with the crowd noise).

With Clark, the corporate media just ignored him. He won Oklahoma, but they never said a word. In fact, the only thing they reported out of OK was that his driver got a speeding ticket. The party hacks on CNN ignored him, wouldn't discuss him and the Faux News types called him "looney" (if they spoke of him). What's funny is that everything Clark said during his campaign has come true. So much for "looney."

[janx]

89. Who is the third? When I look back on this now, I see only

two--Wes Clark and Michael Moore, the latter being an artist and satirist (and a good one).

[AzDar]

98. Jesus H. Christ and John the Baptist would have lost the election...

it was STOLEN!

[GOPBasher]

99. True.

It's true that they still would've lost, because the machines were rigged. That would have been quite an interesting campaign, however. Imagine the commercials: "Jesus Christ asks you to trust Him. But listen to what these people who knew Him personally say."

Rejected Disciples for Truth: "Jesus is not to be trusted......"
And then, "I'm George W. Bush, and I approved this message."

[AzDar]

118. Lol...so awful,yet so true....n/t

[robbedvoter]

100. Also true.

The thread reflects the feelings of people who gave up their most precious principles to unite for the common good - only to turn out into "Bagdan John"
I doubt a larger coalition of the left (and decisive victory) will ever be pulled together as many people lost the faith in the system.

[AntiCoup2K4]

113. But JC would have resurrected a proper vote count three days after....

....the election. Then He would trash the set of FAUX News like He did the Temple in Jerusalem :)

[greenohio]

134. And then we would demonize them here on DU.

Standard procedure.

[0007]

104. I liked Dean. I supported Kerry. I see now that Clark should

have been the man to nominate to run against junior. I think he could have won!

What do I know? Other than the cows are out of the barn.

[patcox2]

120. I agree with you completely.

We are in a war, run a general, he would have been untouchable on the war issue. Instead we ran a guy who was an anti-war protester and waffled on Iraq so bad it was laughable. Clark was 100% consistent on Iraq, and noone could call him a pinko anti-war whatever to turn the rednecks against him. And he was from the south.

[0007]

132. Dean couldn't have won, Kerry was too smooth, Clark would

have been the man!

I see it now so clearly. I was wrong!

[Skittles]

107. they still would have had the same problem with the corporate press

I very much disliked the fact that by the time the primaries actually got down here to Texas, Kerry was a done deal. I think that's a f***ing poor way to do primaries, when one part of the country essentially votes who will be our nominee. And no, I definitely do NOT think Kerry was the best choice although I have to add in the end he did impress me; I think he left bush for ROADKILL in the debates.

[Guns Aximbo]

108. dream ticket / sick of Primary process

Dean & Clark...

By The Way. I'm sick of Iowa choosing the Ticket for the Country. By the time Illinois (my home state) had their primary election Dean was out of it. All of the attention, money and support went to Kerry after Iowa. I really irks me.

[theboss]

112. Blame McAulliffe and the condensed process for that.

It's interesting how the "Iowa and NH choose the nominee" story has become accepted as fact here. This last election was maybe the only time that really happened. Clinton lost both in '92. I believe Dukakis and Mondale lost Iowa. McGovern lost both.

But, keep believing.

[Guns Aximbo]

117. maybe I'm wrong

... but it sure seems that a lot of people here in Illinois feel the sa,e way.

[patcox2]

119. Dean has never been a progressive in his life.

He had a makeover and decided to position himself as a progressive, and it was amazingly effective. But you are deluding yourself if you think he is a progressive.

People who think Dean is a progressive are the same kind of people who are in denial about CLinton, the inventor of the "third way," and Gore, founder of the DLC.

[lojasmo]

124. The OP said "used progressive language" also....

Dean is indeed a progressive. If you don't think so, you don't know the meaning of the word, or you don't know Howard Dean.

Al From founded the DLC, not Al Gore.

[greenohio]

135. Gun toting NAFTA supporting, pro-life embracing, fiscal conservative Dean?

Even the Deanie Babies call him a moderate.

[Tom Rinaldo]

127. Do you mean language like this?

"If Karl Rove is watching today, Karl, I want you to hear me loud and clear: I am going to provide tax cuts to ease the burdens for 31 million American families -- and lift hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty -- by raising the taxes on 0.1 percent of families -- those who make more than $1,000,000 a year. You don't have to read my lips, I'm saying it. And if that makes me an 'old-style' Democrat, then I accept that label with pride and I dare you to come after me for it."

Wesley Clark, from his last campaign.

[truebrit71]

129. I couldn't agree more....

..but then the DLC got involved and we wound up with the "Reporting For Duty" and the PI lawyer Dream-Team....

You know, I don't mind being labelled a liberal, because I AM one, it would just be nice if my party realized it too....

[Bo]

131. CLARK 08 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kerry is an idiot

[lojasmo]

136. Clark, Dean, Feingold, or boxer in '08

If we get another schmuck senator who voted for IWR, Patriot act, and NCLB, I'm going to be one mightily pissed off democrat.