If you cycled, windsurfed, snowboarded and hunted for most of your life

[blm]

would you STOP doing those things because you were campaigning?

If you did stop doing those things you find relaxing, wouldn't you be putting yourself in the position of not being who you are and opening yourself to another round of criticism?

Because the GOP and their media echo chambers are going to attack you no matter what. It doesn't matter if you hunted, played hockey and soccer, flew airplanes, rode motorcycles and raced cycles for DECADES......they will find a way to DEMEAN it in the public eye while oohing and ahhing over a FAKE COWBOY on a FAKE RANCH WHO IS AFRAID OF HORSES.

They OWN most of the media and most of the voting machines. Deal with THOSE facts, instead of being distracted by the assinine spin of the "analysts" who will point the finger at ANY Dem and anything BUT their own complicity in the GOP lie machine.

Perpetuate their games or expose them. Make the choice.

[cali]

1. I agree completely

It's ridiculous to assert that JK should have stopped any of those activities, or that it would have made a difference if he had. He would simply have been attacked for something else.

[blm]

4. I find it absurd for Democrats to attack our own side with GOP generated

spin.

[leesa]

5. I agree completely and yet so many Dems fall for it every time

The RW media tells them Kerry ran a bad campaign or Gore ran a bad campaign or whomever their victim is, and Dems dutifully repeat it and think it makes them sound smart.
Anyone that could draw 15000-30000 people to a rally IS NOT running a bad campaign.

[Blue Wally]

9. unless

you make a case that the huge turnouts for Kerry were more anti-Bush than pro-Kerry. Following DU for a while, it would appear that Bush generated much stronger emotions to the Democratic base than Kerry did. Prior to the election there was an enforced mnoritorium on criticism of kerry driven more by the fact that anyone bad-mouthing kerry was helping Bush.

[blm]

10. Hardly. There was constant criticism of Kerry here. GOP generated spin

against Kerry was discouraged only post convention, whereas, constructive criticism was always allowed.

Anyone who wanted to perpetuate GOP generated spin would have been only slightly disappointed here. There were certainly plenty who did their best to promote the wingnut talking points.

[JI7]

12. like the crap spouted by a certain long time DUer who turned out

to be a Freeper and outed itself on election night. and most of the attacks on Kerry were and still are the type pushed by that person for YEARS on DU.

[lastliberalintexas]

56. Really? We had an actual unmasking?

Details please! I miss all the fun. :D

[robbedvoter]

111. Sevetson - king of the skull&bones & Haiti man boobs threads

A reenactment of what he might look like - as he's probably right here with a new name:

[paulk]

19. that's only true if you conclude that DU is a reflection of the

Democratic base.

And it's not.

Thank god.

[ever_green]

69. Whatever. He looked ridiculous to me and I loved him!

I was embarrassed on his behalf seeing some of those pics. And what was with the hideous yellow jacket he wore to EVERY rally? Don't tell me he didn't want those pictures of himself hunting or whatever shown in the media, he could have done it discretely if his only purpose was personal recreation. Sorry, I just don't trust many politicians.

[July]

71. I thought he looked fine.

"Embarrassing" is what we see in the majority of Bush photos and appearances.

I've seen pictures of Kerry in that jacket from before the campaign -- maybe it's his favorite?

Did you see the pix of Bush clearing brush and riding his bicycle? Was that okay?

[merbex]

87. I LOVED that LLBean Barn Jacket!!

I thought it looked great on him

He wore throughout the primaries and general election

[October]

109. I agree completely

My hairdresser and I always talk politics. Luckily, we agree!

Anyway, she was going on and on about our candidate this and that...and how we have to find someone better to run....etc.

I stopped, spun around in my chair and said "Wait a minute...what do you want? We had Kerry -- for God's sake, look who the other side had!!! They rallied 'round that clown!!!!! -- and you're questioning our guy!!!!"

It kills me.

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

6. Actually,

he would have been attacked for stopping (all except the hunting part!).

With the Rethugs and the media, for the Dems it is damned if you do and damned if you dont -- the sooner the rank and file Dems realize this, the faster we can get around to formulating a way to beat The Thugs (Rethugs and the media, combined: you are welcome :-)) at their own game...

[WI_DEM]

2. Kerry exhibited more love of sports than any candidate I ever saw

He rode a bike, played hockey, windsurfed, threw a football around, hunted and yet the media still tried to depict him as out of touch just because of the way he looked when windsurfing!! Hell, Bush doesn't even jog anymore. But what do you expect? most of these guys who thought Kerry was an intellectual snob and Bush is "Mr. Regular Guy" probably lay on a couch every weekend sipping a beer and eating potato chips allowing themselves to get a big beer gut and watch sports on TV rather than participating.

[vol5516]

59. Lambert/Lambeau field fiasco!

It looked like it, but Kerry was a DISASTER when he talked about sports! Remember Lambert field and giving the WRONG names of the Boston red sox!!!!!!!!!!! He really looked foolish, should have had someone fill him in first! After the Lambert field fiasco, people in Green Bay put up a huge billboard making fun of Kerry kind of,it said something like "It's Lambeau field, stupid!!"

[July]

72. And yet Bush can speak a language we don't recognize, but it's cool.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

107. I didn't get the BoSox gaffs

He obviously likes the team. Why would he not know their names?

Was that a live interview he did for ESPN? Where did that information come from is what I'm wondering, because when I looked it up on line, I noted the reporter's name was Peter Gammon on ESPN. This was right after a Pete Gammon came on DU, said he was a Mass. native and started badmouthing Kerry. I wondered if it was the same guy, and why he had a bug up his butt about Kerry.

I'm less likely to take as gospel the word of a reporter with an obvious bias against someone.

[displacedtexan]

3. Remember what they did to Al Gore.

Served as a field reporter in Vietnam, armed only with a sidearm (by law), BUT HE WASN'T A WAR HERO.

Gore was an all-American Wally Cleaver good boy, BUT HE WAS A SERIAL EXAGGERATOR.

We knew they would try the same shit with JK, but our side was never given the media attention that it deserved.

I blame the fascist media for our situation more than any other group. They're supposed to speak truth to power, not be a major part of that power.

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

7. Oh, I can keep adding to that list until the cows come home...

GORE:

Known for years in the Senate as BOY SCOUT, media in '00: LIAR

WORKED every summer in his Tennessee farm, RIDICULED for saying it in '00.

THE GREEN (wrote the book on it as they say!): VILIFIED by The Thugs on the one hand as "OZONE MAN" but spurned by the GREENS in OR, WA and FL for his silence on that air strip.

DID help develop the INTERNET: well everyone knows that one.

The only way to beat this absurdity The Thugs keep perpetrating is to ignore their spin on the Dem candidates completely -- never, EVER, repeat, during a campaign, any of The Thug generated spin -- develop a TRUTH pamphlet that explodes these and distributes to susceptible locales, to counteract the idiocy, etc...

Instead, we all sit and bellyache, most of the times, that our candidates were "poor" and we need "fresh" faces -- it does not matter, how fresh or great the Dem candidates are: they will be crucified, ironically, by the Christ-ies...

[Lisa]

57. and the true stuff about him was derided as "boring"!

"Okay, we admit that he did way better than Bush in school -- but that means he must be a nerd who can't relate to real people."

"Okay, we admit that Gore did volunteer to go to Vietnam -- but don't you hate goody-two-shoes types like that?"

"Okay, we admit that Gore brought the possibilities of the Internet to the attention of lawmakers, and lobbied hard to make it possible -- but he shouldn't have mentioned it, 'cause that's bragging."

"Okay, we admit that Gore looks brawnier than Bush because of all the heavy farm labor he did growing up -- but he only did that for sheer vanity. He could have left that to the hired help and worked out in the gym like Our Great Leader does, but he just had to show off and pretend to be interested in agriculture."

"Okay, we admit that Bush was up to some questionable stuff when he was younger, and even after he turned 40 -- while Gore's family and career situation was way more stable -- but seriously, don't you think Bush would be a lot more fun to hang out with?"

"Okay, we admit that Gore is capable of understanding complicated science and policy issues like global warming, and writing a popular book about them -- but he only did it to make other Americans feel inadequate. Those author types are always stuck-up."

"Okay, we admit that Gore won more support than Bush, but for him to say he wanted all the votes counted and the situation in Florida investigated shows what a tiresome nitpicker he is."

"Okay, we admit that Bush made a whole bunch of hasty decisions based on information which he didn't recognize was flawed because he'd already made up his mind -- but Gore is a liar, and we can't have people like that in office because they're dangerous."

[XemaSab]

112. Hey....!

Gore only invented ONE internet, but Bush invented all the others....

[shadowgrouse]

20. there is no law

that restricts field reporters who are in the military to only carrying a side arm.

[charlie]

8. After hearing that stellar panel

tell us that we lose because we don't eat at Applebee's, I expect that's exactly what the high-dollar consultants will be saying next election cycle. No windsurfing!

Our 2008 candidate will be told to buy a double-wide in a weedy lot in Tupelo. And bib overalls. He'll hold press conferences with a corndog tucked behind one ear and a bigass roaring chainsaw at hand.

Democratic party apparatchiks make it soooo easy for the Republicans.

Our velcroed windsurfing Massachusetts Liberal Elitist got half the country's votes. Beltway consultants need to remember that and shaddup with the inanities about hockey and spandex.

[lojasmo]

11. I wouldn't stop, but 20 days of vacation is too much. N/T

[blm]

13. I don't recall there being 20 vacation days of actual vacation.

Even during the GOP convention. Of course, I don't control the media and whatever perception they chose to present.

[lojasmo]

14. skiing and winsurfing plus the 5 days of inactivity during the RNC

about twenty days altogether....too damn much.

[JI7]

15. he campaigned during the RNC

he held a rally and he gave a major speech to a large veterans organization.

[cali]

16. Kerry worked incredibly hard

and I don't believe his days off totaled anywhere near 20. There are legitimate areas of criticism regarding Kerry and his campaign. This isn't one of them.

[lojasmo]

24. we disagree. He was gone for around 20 days

during "the most important election of our lifetimes"

Count them up if you must. I already have.

[lojasmo]

25. my wife worked for a campaign this year

If she, or her candidate had tried to go skiing, and windsurfing (for nearly a week each time) during the campaign, she would have been fired, and her candidate would have lost....

Hey! Kerry lost didn't he!

[Uzybone]

44. Bush won

and he took vacation (30 days) right bfore the worst attack on American soil. If you think taking vacation is a reason why Kerry lost then you need to think again.

[lojasmo]

46. ONE small part of a panoply of reasons. N/T

[robbedvoter]

110. He didn't exactly win, but good point.

[blm]

27. Since you already did it, then post it.

I paid pretty close attention and don't see 20 days of vacation.

[lojasmo]

28. i count fourteen plus the windsurfing disaster

six days skiing in the spring, two other vacations of four days each, two days windsurfing in nantucket, and minimal activity during the republican convention.

Too much vacation for "the most important election ever."


Yeah, the MSM played it BIG!!! But you cannot give them the grist.

[blm]

39. A 5 day ski trip AFTER a grueling primary.

You want to go on record as claiming that Kerry had no need to enjoy a sport that relaxes him and his family after a grueling primary and BEFORE the grueling onslaught of the general election? I think that's inhuman.

Those folks worked their asses off.

[lojasmo]

45. I think the TOTALITY of his vacations were foolish.

[blm]

48. You EXAGGERATED his vacation time to make your point

so I just don't see that TOTALITY has anything to do with it. Cripe, the guy was working 7 days a week throughout and you act as if the 14 days you saw him do some sport or rest were on top of his weekends off.

[spooky3]

50. how can anyone criticize Kerry when Bush took FAR more time off?

[lojasmo]

55. Oh, this thread is about Bush? Sorry.

Jeez, all I said is that he didn't need to curtail his sporting activities, but that he shouldn't have taken so many vacation days during the campaign.
Fuck, people.

[lojasmo]

54. Do the math

Fourteen 6+4+4 PLUS the nantucket windsurfing vacation (at least two more days) plus the republican convention where he STATED he wasn't going to be campaigning. That is twenty one days off.

Can you prove your assertion that he worked 7 days a week? Nah, i bet not.

[TayTay]

60. Does that 20 days include debate prep?

The infamous windsurfing off the Vineyard was debate prep time. The windsurfing was what they did when they weren't, ah, prepping.

[blm]

17. Kerry spoke out several times during the GOP convention.

Guess you must have missed it.

That's the problem with a GOP controlled media.

[July]

73. Bush's 40% of time in office vacationing . . . ? nt

[rainbow4321]

40. Big deal...., shrub took all of Aug 2001 off.....

And we see what that got us in Sept 2001, don't we?

Last I heard, no one died from seeing JK doing his sports stuff on the news....

[Ms_Mary]

18. Did you happen to see Will Farrells spoof of Bush on the ranch? Priceless.

[barbaraann]

21. Campaign staff are expected to work without any days off.

I have worked with many local campaign staff and they work about 100 hours a week, if not more, and often don't even have time to eat three meals a day.

[Modem Butterfly]

22. Bush is afraid of horsies?

OMFG! What a wanker! Who in their right mind could be afraid of a pony?

[ArkDem]

36. Me. Those damn things can kill and paralyze!

[Red State Rebel]

47. Last time I got on one I went sailing thru the air....

I remember clearly thinking "I'm going to break something". Luckily I rolled out of it somehow and didn't get hurt badly.

[robbedvoter]

23. Kerry won the election. Wish he'd fight for his win.

The only relevant thing in what you posted for right now, is that the media continues to help W by obscuring the fraud.

[zulchzulu]

26. The Repugs play dirty, ruthlessly lying and distorting anyone in their way

People always go for the negative ads. Atwater knew it. Rove knows it. They will make negative ads that attack even their own (like McCain) if it means they can squeak out a "win".

It's dishonorable and disgusting. And anyone who runs against them WILL have their lives distorted as well as have their family attacked, demeaned and marginalized.

A classic Repug move is to attack the opponent's wife. There is nothing more cowardly than that.

[HamdenRice]

29. Yes I would have stopped ...

A lot of DUers seem not to be able to look objectively at the Kerry campaign and see the mistakes he made so that we can learn from our mistakes in the future.

Do you really think that when Kerry was windsurfing or that when bush is cutting brush, that photographers just happen upon these scenes? No -- these are carefully scripted events designed to send out certain messages. And the Kerry campaign was tone-deaf to much of the public -- in both blue and red constituencies by sending out these messages and images.

I thought he looked ridiculous windsurfing, snow boarding and riding the bike -- even more ridiculous than bush looks playing dress up cowboy. Moreover, Kerry's activities were a turn off to a significant portion of the public.

Even if these are things he regularly does, no, he does not need to show that these are his pasttimes during the campaign. Yes, he should have stopped doing them, at least in front of a camera.

Kerry as a very wealthy guy and Senator I'm sure eats a lot of extremely expensive meals; does that mean that he should have advertised through campaign imagery that he ate a $200 meal? Or had a $500 hair cut, or was wearing a $2000 suit? Of course not, and it is not dishonest not to advertise these facts. Hell, Kerry wakes up every morning and takes a shit just like the rest of us, but that doesn't mean it would be dishonest if he did not make a photo op of it.

A candidate chooses the images of himself for dissemination and both the image itself, and the choice of what image to disseminate send a message. Kerry was tone deaf in both the images and the ludicrous notion that we would somehow be impressed by windsurfing.

And this is coming from a yellow dog Democrat.

[robbedvoter]

53. So then Diebold would have let you win? Dream on!

The images are in the hand of the BFEE propaganda. Reality is not a requirement for the smear (Did Gore say he invented the internets? Was any of the swiftboat BS true?). The sooner you understand that, the sooner you understand the world you live in.
I am looking at Kerry very objectively. Was his campaign perfect? hardly. But the better question is COMPARED TO WHOSE?

Mr loyalty oath and bused audiences?

Mr "we can't win the war on terra - oops - we can?"

[BurtWorm]

30. Really! Hunting is so elitist!

:eyes:

[HamdenRice]

31. The hunting image also was carefully crafted ...

by polling. It was an attempt to get support from gun owners or at least to counter a republican message that Democrats are anti-gun. If you think this was a spontaneous hunting trip, I have a bridge here in NYC to sell you.

[BurtWorm]

32. It's clear that Kerry's sporting image was crafted

but what campaign image isn't? Did anyone decide NOT to vote for Kerry based on the hunting image? Or on the windsurfing image? I'd like to see the evidence for that.

[HamdenRice]

33. I have no doubt that many people did not vote for Kerry b/c windsurfing

I live in a predominantly Democratic and Black district in NYC, but just across the border from Long Island which is a mix of Dems, Republicans and independents. I cannot tell you how many middle class white independents I met in Nassau county who were on the fence, did not like bush's record, but actually expressed revulsion at Kerry's image. In my small sample of not very well informed acquaintances, I heard Kerry reviled by people who really did not know what he stood for, did not buy the republican attack version of him, but only went on the images that Kerry himself disseminated.

[BurtWorm]

34. What was it about the windsurfing/sporting images they couldn't stand?

Was it the number of them? Or was it some message in them that the Kerry camp didn't count on? Was it because, as some have said, they betrayed "elitism?"

[HamdenRice]

42. yes -- elitism

and the overall goofiness of it. I remember even Juan Williams the NPR commentator on one of the sunday morning shows getting angry at the campaign saying, these pictures of Kerry windsurfing have just got to stop! What do they think they're doing?!?!?

[July]

77. I just don't get this.

I've seen pictures of Bush in lycra tights (jogging, I think), falling off of a Segway, very dorked up to ride a bike, lounging in a golf cart, boating with his father, and clearing brush with brand new gloves. But Kerry's goofy and elitist (check the price of a Segway).

[InvisibleBallots]

88. let me try to help everyone "get" it

The Corporate Media is against the Democrats. If Kerry wants to craft an image as something other than an elitist, he has to work 50 times harder than Bush. So Bush gets away with anything, Kerry gets away with nothing. Those are the rules. Unfair? Uh, yes.

[blm]

38. Crafted? He's done those sports most of his life.

You think he's been "crafting" sporting activities for over 40 years so he could use them in a campaign for president?

[HamdenRice]

41. And he has been having morning bowel movements for over 60 years!

That doesn't mean that pictures of him doing that have been made available to the media. During a campaign, the images that go out are crafted. The reason you saw Kerry surfing was that the campaign wanted you to -- perhaps to counter the perception that he was older or stiff. It is the choice of sending out those messages that was stupid.

[BurtWorm]

43. Campaigns take care with the access of photographers to their candidates,

don't they? They don't allow photographers into places they don't think will be useful to the campaign, do they? I don't think the Kerry images were "too much," but I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some calculation going on about what they would mean in the media. We may be talkign about Democrats here, but even Democrats have some media sophistication.

[Leilani]

52. I agree with Hamden Rice

These were crafted photo ops, to show Kerry was a Macho Man...extreme sports & hunting, real guy things.

The problem is they looked phoney...the "borrowed brand new camo" hunting outfit. The expensive outfitting, & of course these events took place at Kerry's many residences,in the most elite locales, which people have trouble relating to.

Remember, he's a Dem, talking about inequities in the system, & trying to say, "I feel your pain." But people knew he didn't feel our pain.

That's what I heard people saying...nobody criticized him being involved in sports...it was just too contrived & when he talked about economic injustice, it rang hollow.

[July]

74. Sporting image was part of the campaign, BUT

I wouldn't say Kerry's all "image" when it comes to sport. He's been a jock for his entire life, as anyone who looked into it would know. People fell for the winger spin on Kerry's hunting, windsurfing, and snowboarding, instead of learning that the guy loves sports.

[BurtWorm]

91. Why should we have to learn the guy likes sports?

Who gives a shit? People have become too sophisticated for the image crafters--or too cynical? Image has become about image--why are they showing us this?--even for the average shmoe.

[blm]

37. Kerry has been an active hunter since he was a boy.

Yes, it was part of a message that Kerry is not going to take guns from hunters. Too bad the media forces Dems to counter GOP lies when they refuse to do their job.

[Red State Rebel]

49. I think that hurt him more than helped, I agree with you....

Unless you could prove to me that he has hunted in the recent history, it was hard to buy.

[InvisibleBallots]

67. and everyone knew it. it looked phoney

because it was phoney.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quetzal]

35. Kerry should move to Hawaii

he would win the governorship in a heartbeat.

[The Wielding Truth]

51. If he loses in Ohio. He should run for any position that will keep him

om a strong place to push for civil rights. I think the senate is best for him.

[Menshevik]

58. I was wondering this today, actually

Why is windsurfing considered so "elitist"????

[TayTay]

62. Well, Those pics came from Martha's Vineyard

yet another needless reminder that Kerry had access to 5 houses and money and all that stuff.

I am a fan of Kerry's but the windsurfing incident really pissed me off. (one of two things in the campaign I just couldn't forgive.) Sometimes someone's best qualities are also their worst. There was Good Kerry who said 'Screw this, I'm going to be a loner and investigate BCCI and do the POW/MIA investigation' and so forth even though Dem leadership was not very enthused. Very laudable ability to go against the flow. There is also the bad Kerry who goes windsurfing with reporters in tow, because he's a rebel. (Sorry Senator. You're 60. No one is clamoring to see a 60 year old man in spandex. This is not intended as a cut, just reality. You've been a Sen for 20 years and the rebel image just no longer fits.) I got so ticked off at this that my husband teased me about it for weeks.

The other unforgiveable was not responding to SBVT sooner. As if that didn't happen before.

[July]

78. Kennebunkport. Yachts. Segways. Etc.

[HamdenRice]

64. Also a windsurfing board costs ...

about $1500, the sail is about another $600, the boom another $500, the mast $500 -- easily $3000 which is more than most working stiffs make in a month -- for a basically toy. This is not your bowling ball, big shirt and rented shoes kind of sport.

And being totally decked out in the wet suit, and being a billionaire he probably didn't go for the discount version of any of it -- and he's doing it at Martha's Vineyard. He gave the message, that for a few days in the sun for him he's likely to spend two or three months salary of a working family.

This did not go over well with me (a Democrat); but really did not go over well with swing voters in Nassau county I met who did not have any pre-existing loyalty to the Democratic Party and did not have a visceral fear of 4 more years of bush. Most of them simply dismissed Kerry as an asshole, without knowing anything about him, long before the debates.

[hollowdweller]

61. What I want to know is why the Dems never used any cheerleader pics of "W"

A golden opportunity to smear his so called "manliness"

[Lorien]

63. I don't have time for any sports with my regular job

and haven't had a vacation in five years. Since campaigning should be harder and more time consuming than doing illustration, my answer would have to be "yes".

[MaroonVette]

65. How much hunting does Kerry do?

Did he take more hunts while running for Prez than during his off-campaign years?

[July]

79. Why ask this? Do you already believe this?

I have no idea how often Kerry hunts, but I do know he's done it for decades.

I also know that the one hunt I read about that Bush participated in included his killing a protected species of bird.

[blm]

92. He usually took two hunting trips a year.

Pretty much like most longtime hunters.

[InvisibleBallots]

66. windsurfing and snowboarding are rich people's sports

and everyone in America knows it.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Menshevik]

70. Yes

like many Americans, I spend my vacations clearing brush off of my 1000 acre ranch

[LynnTheDem]

81. That is such TOTAL BULLSHIT.

Good grief.

[InvisibleBallots]

82. it's TOTAL BULLSHIT, huh?

How much do snowboards cost? How much do windsurfing boats cost? Can you buy snowboards and windsurfers at the mall? Are windsurfing and snowboarding popular among non-White Americans? What about working class rural Whites? Who snowboards? Who windsurfs?

[LynnTheDem]

83. Reading your other posts,

you're on the wrong board. That, or you're one of the "progressives" who have swallowed the rightwingnut bullshit hook, line & sinker.

However, to answer your question:

www.boardsforless.com $79 boards

Or the price of taking the family to the movies twice.

Snowboarding MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT a "rich man's sport".

Windsurfing? More expensive than snowboarding but less costly than 1000-acre ranches and ranch equipment;

Starboard Go Board 200 Windsurfing Board $799.00

How about FISHING? Have you looked at rod & reel prices lately? Or the prices of boats, new or used?

TARGET SHOOTING is far more expensive a hobby; have you seen the price of range fees and ammo lately, never mind the guns; CROSS STITCHING is yearly a more expensive hobby; go check out ANY cross-stitching board.

Try informing yourself without swallowing the rightwingnut bullshit.

[InvisibleBallots]

85. what an interesting post, Lynn

"Reading your other posts, you're on the wrong board."

I think you're probably right. Posts on union news, the AFL-CIO, economic justice, and the like get few responses here, religious/anti-religious trolling is just too popular.

"That, or you're one of the "progressives" who have swallowed the rightwingnut bullshit hook, line & sinker""

The right wing bullshit that snowboarding is for rich people? I guess they fooled me - $79 for a snowboard? I wonder why we never got into snowboarding, or skiing, and always got the impression that was for rich people. Brainwashed by the Republican media I guess!

[LynnTheDem]

89. And how much do all the poor kids pay for rollerblades and skateboards?

The blades & boards in the mall here in central Texas sure as hell cost more than $79. Guess all them kids are rich elites.

[InvisibleBallots]

95. let me guess

this is like how all those poor Black kids on welfare are really buying $200 pairs of sneakers right?

Who cares anyway? Kerry will have plenty of time to ski, snowboard, and windsurf from now on.

[demwing]

93. My son snowboards.

And though I haven't done it in over ten years, I was once an avid windsurfer.

You can buy snowboards at Walmart. I windsurfed when I lived in California, but never owned any equipment.

We are HARDLY rich or affluent. In fact, we are beneath the poverty line for our family size.

Why don't you talk about something that you DO know about?

[InvisibleBallots]

97. an exception that proves the rule?

If you have a reputation as an elitst, and want to counter it, don't do photops on a Snowboard and Windsurfer. Do you really need a six figure consultant to tell you that?

[Bridget Burke]

84. Bullshit.

The equipment for either sport is not necessarily more expensive than a bass boat & trailer, off-terrain vehicles or fine firearms.

Access to the shore or mountains is required. Here on the Gulf Coast, lots of people make it down to the (minimal) surf when they've got time. And lots of us flatlanders take vacation packages to Colorado for skiing; a home in Aspen is not required.

Bush had an expensive pig farm bought for him & all he does is "cut brush." That wouldn't be necessary if he really ran cattle-- or goats. And we've got lots of "gentleman ranchers" who like the western life & cut a fine figure on horseback; he's not one. He's a graceless, ugly doofus who can't stay on a Segway.

[InvisibleBallots]

86. can no one see the difference?

Really, no one can understand the difference between a windsurfer and a bass boat, and good hunting rifles.

Think hard - bass boat, hunting rifles vs. windsurfer. Hmmm. Both cost a lot of money. Are there any other distinctions here we might be missing here? That relate to the class symbolism used in the last campaign - you know, the one where Bush was shown clearing brush, and Kerry was shown windsurfing?

Let's see, we know that both Bush and Kerry are extremely wealthy, and have the same lifestyle for the most part. Bush's "common man" act shouldn't fool anyone, and we're dealing with rank symbolism here, right?

I'm sure if we really put our minds to it, we might be able to figure this out.

[Bridget Burke]

98. This is only a stupid distraction.

Why waste time deciding which leisure activity is more "elite"?

Bush allowed a terrorist attack on US soil & sat like an idiot while people were dying. Then he fled the scene. Yet he was touted as "strong on security." This shirker who couldn't even finish his minimal military obligation is leading thousands to their deaths--such a great leader!

It's the whore media we're dealing with. Plus voting systems that can't be trusted.

[InvisibleBallots]

100. why did Kerry hold photops about it then?

I agree - it's a distraction. But it's the kind of symbolic politics that these "consultants" are supposed to know about, and if I were Kerry I'd demand my money back. Er, I should say, *our* money back.

[RobinA]

90. This Everybody Didn't

And frankly I'm not sure it's true. Every kid around here (eastern PA) wants a snowboard. I always thought of it as kind of a slacker winter sport.

As for windsurfing, I don't live near water so I'm not an expert, but I visit the Outer Banks and see windsurfing pretty frequently. Most of my younger friends have windsurfed. You can rent windsurfing equipment all over the place at the beach. The political class in this country tends to have money and hang with other people who have money. George H.W. on his cigarette boat, JFK on boats all over Martha's Vineyard looking rich and windblown, Nixon at his friend Bebe Robozo's palace in Key Biscayne, Clinton golfing with Greg Norman... What's the big deal? Actually, the fakest guy of them all, W, is the guy who's supposed to be the current political role model.

[Q]

75. Kerry's...

...loss (if he did lose) had nothing to do with windsurfing. It was simply too difficult for a part-time Bush* enabler to convince the voters of his true position on some of the issues.

I believe his 'position' on the Iraq 'war' hurt him. That and his announcement that he was expecting the (ABB) vote while he went after the non-democratic swing voter.

[LynnTheDem]

80. Americans who vote(d) based on a politican's "IMAGE"

of being a windsurfer versus a fake farmer are too stupid for any democracy of any kind and deserve the military fascist dictatorship state bush is installing.

At least HALF this country voted for KERRY. OBVIOUSLY they were NOT worried about shit like windsurfing, but were concerned with THE ISSUES.

There sure are a lot of so-called progressives who fall easily for the rightwingnut bullshit.

[sangh0]

94. You nailed it....again

More than 50 million Americans were not bothered at all when it came to windsurfing, and other repuke "concerns"

Only on DU will you find someone who thinks that was significant

[LTRS]

96. Almost half isn't good enough

... that's the first rule in politics. 50% plus ONE is what you need. And Kerry didn't lose because he windsurfs. He lost because he couldn't make up his mind where he stood on issues and tried to recalibrate his message in accordance with polls.

That is what dems do, and that is why we lose. I see it every day as I deal with consultants and politicians. You simply cannot convince them that you have to stand up for your beliefs if you want people to have enough confidence to vote for you. They are convinced that we have to figure out what the polls say and base a message on that. And when the polls change, they recalibrate yet again.

And until they figure out that is bullcrap, we will continue to lose.

[LynnTheDem]

99. Not true.

MOST Kerry supporters knew EXACTLY and CORRECTLY what Kerry's stance on issues was; most BUSH supporters DID NOT correctly know BUSH'S stance.

Exactly the opposite of your argument.

It was the US STATE MEDIA who played Kerry as a "flip-flopper". BUSH was and is the REAL king of flip-flopping...something the US State Media still hasn't bothered to accurately report on.

[LTRS]

102. No, that's not my argument at all

How can Kerry supporters have known "exactly" and "correctly" what his stance was on issues? Hell, Kerry didn't know... and what's worse, he didn't VOTE for what he SAID he believed.

The party faithful and those who despise Bush may not have cared that Kerry voted for a war he didn't support, or for a patriot act he didn't support, or for an education bill he didn't support, ad nauseam, but more than 50% DID care.

If Kerry wanted folks to believe his "stance" was what he said it was he should have just maybe, once in 20 yrs, introduced a bill that demonstrated that. Why not propose reforms of the patriot act or NCLB, or a civil unions bill (since he was "for" those and "against" gay marriage?

Count every vote, now see ya later? Yeah, he topped it off with more of the same.

It ain't windsurfing that's the problem. It's appalling lack of courage of convictions - and Kerry is not the only dem afflicted with the condition.

[LynnTheDem]

103. Actually YES Kerry supporters DID correctly know Kerry's stance on issues

Supporters of President Bush are less knowledgeable about the president's foreign policy positions and are more likely to be mistaken about factual issues in world affairs than voters who back John F. Kerry, a survey released yesterday indicated.

Kerry supporters correctly identified their candidate's position on every foreign policy issue in the survey except defense spending.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/10/22/divide_seen_in_voter_knowledge/

BUSH SUPPORTERS were WRONG on EVERY BUSH STANCE BUT 2.

KERRY SUPPORTERS were CORRECT on EVERY KERRY STANCE but 1.

Or are you saying YOU didn't know Kerry's stance on issues? Coz the majority of his supporters certainly did know.

[LTRS]

105. Really? Which one of those issues was pivotal

to the election? Iraq, and that's it. And as you will note, Bush supporters came the closest on that one. Joe Public doesn't know jack about and doesn't really care about any of the other ones.

But that ISN'T the issue. Kerry may have "stands" on each and every one of those issues, but name me a single bill he has proposed about any of them. You can't. He didn't. In fact, as I said, he voted in opposition to what he said his "stance" was on many issues. And that is what the public saw. 44% in exit polling said they did NOT vote for him because he was a flip flopper.

And therein lies the problem.

[LynnTheDem]

106. No actually, bush supporters DID NOT come closest on Iraq

Name the bills Kerry voted against his stance on. Thanks.

[LTRS]

113. Why yes, they did

Read the table you posted again. As for Kerry voting for bills he later claimed NOT to support, I already named them in a previous post to you in this thread.

Let's get real for a moment here - that is NOT a winning strategy. We need to demand a bit more from our candidates and face that fact that we deserve a bit better. Courage of their convictions would be a welcome start.

[Still_Loves_John]

104. The ranch is afraid of horses?

[robbedvoter]

108. He's a windshield cowboy - Pickles sez - drives a truck