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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:35 PM
Original message
Conservatives = Nazis
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 05:38 PM by norml
For anyone who tries to tell you the Nazis were nothing like the present movement that calls itself conservative, have them read the original material produced by the Nazis themselves. http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa / Here also is a link to some Hitler, and Nazi quotes on their own Christianity. http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm The Nazis were no "Secular European Socialists" as the right wing media whores would try to tell you. The Nazis replaced the Social Democrats, who were their enemies. They used patriotism, the Christian Right, the Militarists, the White Supremacists, and the Nationalists in Germany to come to power. Except for the insane Nazi racial theories, and the not having yet run up the same sort of death toll, the Nazis of that era are the same as the "Conservatives" of today. Don't be intimidated from calling them Nazis. Rush, and his ilk have been calling us that for almost two decades now. Can you say "Feminazis"?
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UpsideDownFlag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. this thread = Hyperbole.
i'll see if it show's up in the next edition of NR, just like that 11/2 // 9/11 poll.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. Thread title = Unproductive over the top nuttiness. (& I hate Nazism &
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 05:15 AM by jamboi
dislike NeoCons too). Hyperbole like this hurts our cause because it just is so false on the face of it. There are so many accurate criticisms to make why waste time with this rubbish? This is the equivalent false statement of Liberals = Communists. Rediculous on the face of it.

Furthermore Nazis have nothing to do with Jesus Christ or Christianity. "Their brand of Christianity" had no more to do with Christianity than the KGB controlled "Christianity" of the USSR. The only place you'd find real Christianity in either Nazi Germany or USSR was that of the underground church. In both cases the underground church maintained the love-based Jesus movement. Totalitarian states want nothing to do with Jesus. They executed him 2,000 years ago and would again today in a heartbeat, given the chance.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. "because it is just so false on the face of it" ? Rubbish!
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 06:26 AM by norml
They are Nazi-like in so many ways it would take some time to list them all. There are so many Nazi-like elements of our foreign policy, that it would take some time to list those also. As I've said to others here, go to the links I've provided. Look at the materials there. It is a very accurate criticism. A criticism which they've put great effort into intimidating us from making. An obvious criticism. An obvious historical parallel. It is timidity, or blindness like your's which hurts our cause, because not only are you reluctant to make the case that needs making, you would stand in the way of those trying to make that case. There is no doubt that the Right-Wing, and the evil movement that calls itself conservative, have tried to wipe the Hitler off of themselves. Don't help them do it!
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. Did you read links???
It would seem not. Why the terror in calling a spade a spade? Shades of spineless DLC??

*sniff* *sniff* That's what it smells like to me.

Julie
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stopthenoise Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. I agree
It's a good analogy to the right calling us communists or socialists. Let's not become what we oppose.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. The National Review would never reprint this thread
At least not in full, because it contains too many good arguments for taking this position.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. True True
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RedCheckShirt Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bush's Grandfather Bankrolled Hitler
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. That appears to have some validity, but it doesn't justify the title of
this thread.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. I tell people to Google the words "Prescott Bush Nazis"
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 05:19 PM by norml
Then they can look at the original court documents on his indictment for that. Bush-Nazi Link Confirmed
Documents in National Archives Prove
George W. Bush's Grandfather Traded
with Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor
By John Buchanan
Exclusive to The New Hampshire Gazette
10-10-3

WASHINGTON -- After 60 years of inattention and even denial by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926 until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush and his "enemy national" partners.

The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury, tried to conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s, personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion of democratic principle and German law.

Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, continued their dealings with the German industrial tycoon for nearly a year after the U.S. entered the war.

No Story?

For six decades these historical facts have gone unreported by the mainstream U.S. media. The essential facts have appeared on the Internet and in relatively obscure books, but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes. This story has also escaped the attention of "official" Bush biographers, Presidential historians and publishers of U.S. history books covering World War II and its aftermath.

The White House did not respond to phone calls seeking comment.

The Summer of '42

The unraveling of the web of Bush-Harriman-Thyssen U.S. enterprises, all of which operated out of the same suite of offices at 39 Broadway in New York under the supervision of Prescott Bush, began with a story that ran simultaneously in the New York Herald-Tribune and Washington Post on July 31, 1941. By then, the U.S. had been at war with Germany for nearly eight months.

"Hitler's Angel Has $3 Million in U.S. Bank," declared the front-page Herald-Tribune headline. The lead paragraph characterized Fritz Thyssen as "Adolf Hitler's original patron a decade ago." In fact, the steel and coal magnate had aggressively supported and funded Hitler since October 1923, according to Thyssen's autobiography, I Paid Hitler. In that book, Thyssen also acknowledges his direct personal relationships with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels and Rudolf Hess.

The Herald-Tribune also cited unnamed sources who suggested Thyssen's U.S. "nest egg" in fact belonged to "Nazi bigwigs" including Goebbels, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, or even Hitler himself.

Business is Business

The "bank," founded in 1924 by W. Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V. of Holland, was Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York City. According to government documents, it was in reality a clearing house for a number of Thyssen-controlled enterprises and assets, including as many as a dozen individual businesses. UBC also bought and shipped overseas gold, steel, coal, and U.S. Treasury bonds. The company's activities were administered for Thyssen by a Netherlands-born, naturalized U.S. citizen named Cornelis Lievense, who served as president of UBC. Roland Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a managing director.

The Herald-Tribune article did not identify Bush or Harriman as executives of UBC, or Brown Brothers Harriman, in which they were partners, as UBC's private banker. A confidential FBI memo from that period suggested, without naming the Bush and Harriman families, that politically prominent individuals were about to come under official U.S. government scrutiny as Hitler's plunder of Europe continued unabated.

After the "Hitler's Angel" article was published Bush and Harriman made no attempts to divest themselves of the controversial Thyssen financial alliance, nor did they challenge the newspaper report that UBC was, in fact, a de facto Nazi front organization in the U.S.

Instead, the government documents show, Bush and his partners increased their subterfuge to try to conceal the true nature and ownership of their various businesses, particularly after the U.S. entered the war. The documents also disclose that Cornelis Lievense, Thyssen's personal appointee to oversee U.S. matters for his Rotterdam-based Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V., via UBC for nearly two decades, repeatedly denied to U.S. government investigators any knowledge of the ownership of the Netherlands bank or the role of Thyssen in it. Brown Brothers Harriman sent letters to the government seeking reconsideration of the seizures by using false information.

UBC's original group of business associates included George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, who had a relationship with the Harriman family that began in 1919. In 1922, Walker and W. Averell Harriman traveled to Berlin to set up the German branch of their banking and investment operations, which were largely based on critical war resources such as steel and coal.

The Walker-Harriman-created German industrial alliance also included partnership with another German titan who supported Hitler's rise, Friedrich Flick, who partnered with Thyssen in the German Steel Trust that forged the Nazi war machine. For his role in using slave labor and his own steel, coal and arms resources to build Hitler's war effort, Flick was convicted at the Nuremberg trials and sentenced to prison.

The Family Business

In 1926, after Prescott Bush had married Walker's daughter, Dorothy, Walker brought Bush in as a vice president of the private banking and investment firm of W.A. Harriman & Co., also located in New York. Bush became a partner in the firm that later became Brown Brothers Harriman and the largest private investment bank in the world. Eventually, Bush became a director of and stockholder in UBC.

However, the government documents note that Bush, Harriman, Lievense and the other UBC stockholders were in fact "nominees," or phantom shareholders, for Thyssen and his Holland bank, meaning that they acted at the direct behest of their German client.

Seized

On October 20, 1942, under authority of the Trading with the Enemy Act, the U.S. Congress seized UBC and liquidated its assets after the war. The seizure is confirmed by Vesting Order No. 248 in the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian and signed by U.S. Alien Property Custodian Leo T. Crowley.

In August, under the same authority, Congress had seized the first of the Bush-Harriman-managed Thyssen entities, Hamburg-American Line, under Vesting Order No. 126, also signed by Crowley. Eight days after the seizure of UBC, Congress invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act again to take control of two more Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses - Holland-American Trading Corp. (Vesting Order No. 261) and Seamless Steel Equipment Corp. (Vesting Order No. 259).

The documents from the Archives also show that the Bushes and Harrimans shipped valuable U.S. assets, including gold, coal, steel and U.S. Treasury bonds, to their foreign clients overseas between 1931-33, as Hitler engineered his rise to power.

Still No Story?

Since 1942, the information has not appeared in any U.S. news coverage of any Bush political campaign, nor has it been included in any of the major Bush family biographies. It was, however, covered extensively in George H.W. Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, by Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin. Chaitkin's father served as an attorney in the 1940s for some of the victims of the Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.

The book gave a detailed, accurate accounting of the Bush family's long Nazi affiliation, but no mainstream U.S. media entity reported on or even investigated the allegations, despite careful documentation by the authors. Major booksellers declined to distribute the book, which was dismissed by Bush supporters as biased and untrue. Its authors struggled even to be reviewed in reputable newspapers. That the book was published by Lyndon LaRouche's organization undoubtedly made it easier to dismiss, but does not change the facts.

The essence of the story has been posted for years on various Internet sites, including BuzzFlash.com and TakeBackTheMedia.com, but no online media seem to have independently confirmed it.

In the 1990s, former U.S. Justice Department Nazi war crimes prosecutor John Loftus, now honorary president of the Florida Holocaust Museum, wrote a book and launched a web site (<>www.john-loftus.com ) which did breakthrough reporting, including establishing the link between Prescott Bush, Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation and forced labor at Auschwitz. Although the widely-respected Loftus established a successful international speaking career with his information, no U.S. newspaper or major TV news program acknowledged his decade of work, nor did he ever see many of the recently released documents.

Meanwhile, the mainstream media have apparently made no attempt since World War II to either verify or disprove the allegations of Nazi collaboration against the Bush family. Instead, they have attempted to dismiss or discredit such Internet sites or "unauthorized" books without any journalistic inquiry or research into their veracity.

Loyal Defenders

The National Review ran an essay on September 1 by their White House correspondent Byron York, entitled "Annals of Bush-Hating." It begins

mockingly: "Are you aware of the murderous history of George W. Bush - indeed, of the entire Bush family? Are you aware of the president's Nazi sympathies? His crimes against humanity? And do you know, by the way, that George W. Bush is a certifiable moron?" York goes on to discredit the "Bush is a moron" IQ hoax, but fails to disprove the Nazi connection.

The more liberal Boston Globe ran a column September 29 by Reason magazine's Cathy Young in which she referred to "Bush-o-phobes on the Internet" who "repeat preposterous claims about the Bush family's alleged Nazi connections."

Poles Tackle the Topic

Newsweek Polska, the magazine's Polish edition, published a short piece on the "Bush Nazi past" in its March 5, 2003 edition. The item reported that "the Bush family reaped rewards from the forced-labor prisoners in the Auschwitz concentration camp," according to a copyrighted English-language translation from Scoop Media (<>www.scoop.co.nz ). The story also reported the seizure of the various Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.

Still Not Interested

Major U.S. media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News, CNN, The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, Los Angeles Times and Miami Herald, as well as Knight-Ridder Newspapers, have repeatedly declined to investigate the story when information regarding discovery of the documents was presented to them beginning Friday, August 29. Newsweek U.S. correspondent Michael Isikoff, famous for his reporting of big scoops during the Clinton-Lewinsky sexual affair of the 1990s, declined twice to accept an exclusive story based on the documents from the archives.

Aftermath

In 1952, Prescott Bush was elected to the U.S. Senate, with no press accounts about his well-concealed Nazi past. There is no record of any U.S. press coverage of the Bush-Nazi connection during any political campaigns conducted by George Herbert Walker Bush, Jeb Bush, or George W. Bush, with the exception of a brief mention in an unrelated story in the Sarasota Herald Tribune in November 2000 and a brief but inaccurate account in The Boston Globe in 2001.



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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, it is not that simple
The Nazis, at the time of their rise to power, had no longer a socialist agenda.
But: Pretty much the same is to be said about Hitler and Christianity: like many of his henchmen, he came from a simple southern German/ Austrian Catholic family. Hitler started railing against Christianity shortly after his failed putsch, even the infamous "Mein Kampf" does include many anti-Christian passages (one might argue that the whole nonsense was totally anti-Christian in it's essence).
Yes, the Nazis found many supporters in the Churches, but saying that the Nazis had a Christian-Right direction is simply untrue - their coalition partner did, though.

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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. They used Christianity. Whatever they truly believed, and practiced was
another matter.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. IMO what keeps this batch of fascists from equaling
Hitler is the popular resistance in the US is stronger than it was in Germany in the 1920-30's. There is also an awareness worldwide thanks to the Internet and other international communication mediums.

Good topic.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Some of US thought the unthinkable all along imho
and stayed READY.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RedCheckShirt Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It will never happen
The MSM is owned by the Repugs
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. Real Nazis, their families and friends and Nazi partisans found a US
political home in the RW of The Republican Party :nuke:

Russ Bellant's work.
Old Nazi Networks in US
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/political-science/f...
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
62. Nazi emigres found a home in the Republican Party.

The emigre fascist network within the Republican Party
represents a small but significant element of the coalition which
brought Ronald Reagan into the White House. It is from this
network that the George Bush presidential campaign assembled its
ethnic outreach unit in 1988. . .a unit that saw eight
resignations by persons charged with anti-semitism, racism,
fascist leanings and even Nazi collaboration. These right-wing
emigres are a small but vocal element within the broader ethnic
communities they claim to represent. They frequently utilize
anti-communist sentiments, historical revisionism and lack of
knowledge about Eastern and Central Europe as a shield to deflect
inspection and criticism of their past actions and current views.

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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. That is an interesting design for a building:


fairly effecient, much more surface area than a square (more windows = better real estate)
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. "Gott ist mitt uns"...
means "God is with us." Many SS Troops had this crap on their beltbuckles.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Nonsense, victims are victims. Nazi tactics are Nazi tactics.
Edited on Sun Dec-05-04 09:19 PM by norml
And their kind of Christianity has nothing to do with giving endlessly of themselves for their fellow man. I can very simply compare American Conservatives to German Nazis. What makes Americans exempt from succumbing to backing evil. Many who backed the Nazi party were good people who loved God, and wanted to defend their country against atheism, communism, and enemies both foreign, and domestic. Please look at some of the original Nazi material provided in the link, and see if it looks familiar. And welcome to DU Tharks! We're glad you made it!
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Most of the comparisons
I see here and elsewhere I believe are made to the early rise of the Nazis, the 1930's Nazis. At that time they weren't murdering large numbers of people but were merely in the process of gaining acceptance and power among unwitting Germans who could not have forseen what it would all lead to until it was too late. We have no real choice but to learn from history so that its mistakes are not repeated. As with anything, some of it goes too far but that's to be expected.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich"
I highly recommend it to anyone who has not read it.

The comparison to the Bush Junta and the early Nazis are not that far off at all.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Another, less well known book on this is, "The Nazi Seizure of Power"
"The Nazi Seizure of Power, The Experience Of A Single German Town, 1922-1945, by William Sheridan Allen".
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Castilleja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
49. I think you make an point out an important distinction
Early nazi vs. later on. Very good points, dismissing this idea out of hand because it "seems" a ridiculous comparison seems to blind people to the similarity of the early stages. I am no expert on it, but I have ready many things pointing out the similarities between then and now, and see it as an idea well worth considering.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. See post 9 and google Operation PAPERCLIP for the harsh reality, pal.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. The Nazis didn't start out with their death camps, they worked up to them
Edited on Mon Dec-06-04 04:44 AM by LynnTheDem
You need to read up on history. 1930s Germany, from a democracy to a fascist dictatorship would be a good place to start. The similarities to bushCartel's actions are unmistakable.

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. He was not saying "All Christians are Nazis"
He was saying "Nazis were Christians"

Can the Christians on this board get that straight? When we point out that Bush is a born-again or Hitler ran a Christian campaign that does not mean that we're saying Christianity is fascist!
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tjwmason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. The Nazis weren't real Christians
A good Nazi would state his religion as 'believer in God' rather than Christian.

A number of Catholics were attracted to the movement because it was anti-Communist, and the Popes had been fervent in their anti-Communism (right down to J.P.II - he was anti-Nazi as well).

A number of Nazi officials sought to reclaim Germanic paganism - yet I think that few Wiccans would be on-side with their position.

Ideologies will draw in anything and manipulate it as a tool to further the ends of the ideology.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Hi tjwmason!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Evil movement that calls itself Conservative isn't very Christian either.
The "Conservative" Sermon On The Mount


Blessed are the rich for all good things trickle down from them. Cursed are the poor for poverty results from their moral failings. Blessed are the war makers for they keep freedom on the march. Cursed are the peacemakers for they shall be called appeasers. Blessed are those who inflict harsh punishments for they maintain law and order. Cursed are those who forgive for they shall be called soft on crime. Blessed are those who pray loudly standing in the churches and on the corners sounding the trumpet before them. Cursed are those who shut the closet door and pray in secret for their prayers are not heard. Blessed are those who cast the first stone for the sake of sexual morality for that is the only morality that matters. Cursed are those who see sexuality as a private matter for marriage must be defended against them.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
46. In 1936 Hitler hadn't killed any Jews or homosexuals
However he had a lot of rhetoric demonizing them, and he had helped Franco in Spain by bombing the bejeezus out of Guernica. Fallujah = Guernica.
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. Too much broadbrushing
The party powerbrokers? Yes. Everyone who voted Republican? No.

It is all about preceptions. We have not crossed that line yet. That is not to say we do not need a government change.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Were the party power brokers and everyone who voted for them
not all Nazis/Republicans? Did any of them want to be called something else? Not all had the same guilt, but all wanted the same label.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Conservatives are not Nazis but Neo-Conservatives and
Dominionists are certainly fascists and theocratic fascists (which are more deadly)
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. Mention to any Repbulican
if they are Facist and they will get quite upset at you. Many people voted Republican due to misconceptions. Either through the historical stereotype of the GOP in rural areas over the recent past or just single issues (e.g. abortion, gay marriage).

If the GOP came out verbaitum declaring they are facist then many would change. You know politics is always about the person behind the curtian.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. I forget the source of the epigram, but.....
"If fascism ever comes to the United States, it will come in the guise of a fervent patriotism."


If they stop lying and calling us communists, then we'll stop telling the truth and calling them fascists.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-04 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. hitler quotes
hitler:

"It is not truth that matters, but victory"

"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think"

"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge."

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine"

"The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others"

"Strength lies not in defense but in attack"

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief"

dubya

"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier - just so long I'm the dictator."
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
29. Where is our nation headed?










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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. Remember the Nazis didn't take over "all at once" but
over a course of a few years. They deliberately ostracized people during different phases of their transformation.

Methinks, if the govt begins to "round up" Middle Eastern (place of birth) naturalized Americans, NOT illegals, but Middle Eastern Americans, we all better WAKE-UP!

I don't care if your ancestors are from Norway, IF the above occurs, that will be only the first step.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Look at the indigenous peoples, the slavery era, Japanese-Americans
during WWII, segregation-all just practice for today imho.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. Neo-conservatives have fascist tendencies
It would be difficult to call them Nazis yet, but there are startling similarities. Both have had wars and deaths/destruction for no good reason, with a reliance on fear. Also both have had a thing against "elitists" - when actually they are being hypocritical and think their view is the right view. And of course, the modern day Repukes control the media. Right now, we have a Democracy in name only. They haven't gone full way yet because they need to build slowly. I'm worried that if we don't get the Democrats in control soon, we'll have a VERY dark period in America.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
58. They have cult tendencies as well.
It is a cult which takes away services, protections, benefits, and rights from the people. It's is a cult which demands blind obedience, and unquestioning loyalty. It is a cult which sees anyone not of the cult as the enemy. It is a cult which tells it's members not to listen to anyone outside of the cult. It is a cult which tells it's members that that they are all good, and can never do anything wrong. They are a cult which tells it's members that anyone outside of the cult is all evil, and can never do anything right. It is a cult which promises jobs, low prices, prosperity, and security, if it is obeyed. It is a cult which promises freedom, but delivers slavery. it is a cult which promises peace, but delivers war. It is a cult which promises plenty, but delivers poverty. It is an evil death cult.
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
37. Conservatives are not Nazis. REGRESSIVES are Nazis (wannabes).
Let's establish a new and more accurate term for these jagoffs.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #37
60. I think it's better to bash away at whatever terms they use for themselves
However, calling them regressives, or Nazi wannabes, may be some of a number of good ways of re-defining them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Not "your a nut". You meant to say "you're a nut".
Edited on Tue Dec-07-04 01:03 AM by norml
This thread of mine seems to be attracting a lot of newbies. Have I said something that moves them? Good! Remember your punctuation, and welcome to DU!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Please be specific.
I'd like you to name these issues that "force" voters to go repuglican; not trying to bait a newbie, I'd just like to see if you and I are on the same page here....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. There has been no, I repeat NO, major Dem politician in the last 900 years
who has ever threatened to ban religion, take everyone's guns away, or forced the lower middle class to give their money to the lower working class. This is all fiction.

You know, I'm really getting tired of these same old stereotypes getting perpetuated daily by RW radio. Where does this bullshit COME from? It ain't the DLC, I can tell you that. And I'm also getting tired of having to live in this fucking fantasy world where Dems are constantly having to fight away accusations of gun confiscation, increasing the middle class's tax burden, etc. THERE HAS BEEN NO DEM POLITICIAN SINCE BUDDHA WALKED THE EARTH WHO PLANNED ON MAKING SUCH ISSUES PART OF HIS /HER PLATFORM. Seriously. If these people can't see beyond such nonsense and actually take a look at the platforms of the people running for office, then I'm sorry, but fuck 'em. Let them have their myths if it makes them feel comfortable.

We, as Dems, keep extending that life raft to the drowning working class, but they keep refusing to take it. They prefer to get sucked under in the RW whirlpool, and they're doing it willingly.

Kerry did not run on an anti-2nd amnedment platform. He did not run on a "tax the middle class" platform. He did not run on an anti-religion platform. He did not run on a "let's open up all the borders" platform. Name me one, ONE, Dem politician in the last thousand years who has. Instead, I've been seeing my party move further and further to the right in order to placate this particular voting bloc, which will continue to spurn my party no matter how far right it moves for shallow, shaky reasons which have no grounding in reality. Just how "not progressive....yet" do we want America to be? How much more "1/2 way" can we possibly go?
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. Deleted Message & Name removed, seem to be attracted to this thread.
I wonder why? :shrug:
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. You make some sense
As much as I loath the Freepers and the Right amateur webfront in general: I don't think they're nazi's.
The majority of the repubs are just buying all the crap they're served, and are scared. Scared of terrorism, scared of liberalism, scared of everything. Scared of being outcast among their own if they change their point of view. Scared that Jerry the Not-so-Merry should point his finger at them and say: You helped this happen, you got to take some of the responsibility for this!
I don't hate ordinary repubs - anyone can play with the minds of people, we've seen that enough times here in Europe ;-)

The neoCons are another matter.
Too many ODD loose threads are floating around, and there's just the mounting pile of evidence against them.
But 'nazi' doesn't describe them as ideology goes (as far as we know at this point anyway), so I think fascism is more correct to use.

But the Repub behaviour and their stance is so unfriendly, pathetic and nazi-like, and they're so obvious comfortable with the internet, why not dub them 'netzists'?

Personally I call them conservophiles because they've turned from political partisanship to something deeper.

They don't like to be called that at all! :-D

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slowroll Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
45. gawd...I hate this over-the-top crap
You sound just as stupid as freepers calling Democrats Commies. When people make political arguments thru hyperbole I immediately ignore them, and I'm sure just about everyone else in the country does too.

This entire board seems convinced that Republicans and conservatives are some kind of alien space monsters. They just seem to me mostly like people who are doing what they think is right. I think they're wrong, and I think the way they go about doing some things is pretty sleazy and counterproductive, and I think that some of them are corrupt and greedy, but I'm not about to run around screaming "Nazis!" Those kinds of tactics were employed by the actual Nazis themselves, labeling Jews and Russians as vermin and untermensch, unworthy of consideration as reasonable human beings. Not appealing.

I'll tell you what: if many here truly, in your heart of hearts, believe that the Bush administration is morally equivalent to Hitler's, it is your duty as the possesor of the accumulation of knowledge gained thru the bloody human experience and as a citizen of the world to immediately embark on a campaign to dislodge it by any means necessary. Political means have failed. I will turn on CNN when I get home from work to see if the revolution has begun.

Otherwise, quit crying "wolf!"
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. Every day I hear the right wing media whores calling us communists
When there are oh so many ways in which I could compare their methods, and the propaganda of their movement to that of the Soviet Union. Every day I hear the "Conservative" media calling us vermin, unworthy of consideration as reasonable human beings. Michael Savage says "The liberal vermin must be exterminated!" practically every day. Every day I here them using the exact same words, and concepts of the Nazi, and Soviet propaganda that you can find in those links I provided. They are Nazi-like in so many ways it would take some time to list them all. There are so many Nazi-like elements of our foreign policy, that it would take some time to list those also. As I've said to others here, go to the links I've provided. Look at the materials there. It is a very accurate criticism. A criticism which they've put great effort into intimidating us from making. An obvious criticism. An obvious historical parallel. It is timidity, or blindness like your's which hurts our cause, because not only are you reluctant to make the case that needs making, you would stand in the way of those trying to make that case. There is no doubt that the Right-Wing, and the evil movement that calls itself conservative, have tried to wipe the Hitler off of themselves. Don't help them do it!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. You Know, I've heard people say....
"The pre-WWII Germans didn't have the monitoring tools we have today, they weren't as vigilant becaus they didn't have these 'new information gathering methods'."

But I contend that they were... and that, although not as technologically advanced, that they had all available and necessary methods at their disposal.

The issue is therefore parity.

WE have the internet.

So do all the 'conservatives' who have bought the party line. (call them what you will)

We have the understanding.

So do those who are trying to subvert and deflect that understanding.

The tools have evolved, the ideas have evolved... on BOTH 'sides'.

But the techniques remain the same.

Make no mistake - the government who first adapts a means of tracking all financial transactions through 'bio-informatics' will have embraced one of the greatest 'control' technologies ever...

"But that could never happen in America."

We have the toys... they have the tools.
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LTRS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-07-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I'd say you need to wake up then
Hitler didn't campaign on gassing Jews. It doesn't start with that - it starts just exactly the way the republican party is operating now.

Gays are the new Jews, as are the poor and the Arabs. They use nationalism, false patriotism, demonization of opponents, and of course fear, lies / propaganda, God, and hate to achieve their goals. These are techniques perfected by the Nazis.

The typical American citizen is a very poor student of history, so of course we see posts like yours that appear to claim that moral equivalency (i.e. gassing people) is the only clue to look for. Except by then it will be too late.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. You won't find many leftists in love with Fidel Castro here.
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 11:19 PM by norml
And you won't find anyone here who approves of his quarantining homosexuals. People are most likely to march, and protest what's done by their own leaders, before they march, and protest what's done by someone else's leaders. What's so unusual about that? If you read the original Nazi propaganda material, you will find that it reads the same as what's being put out by the Conservative Republican Nazis of today. If you just replace the word "Jew", with the word "Liberal" it reads the same. Also if you think that those marching, and protesting need more prosecution for violating public indecency laws, then maybe you are the one, more than anyone here, who is a fan of Fidel Castro, and his policies. Welcome to DU Independent Voice! I'm glad this thread has moved so many new people to respond.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Leftists love Castro?!
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 04:05 AM by RandomKoolzip
Maybe back in the sixties they did. Certainly not the case anymore. I suggest you update your shallow stereotypes; furthermore, I dare you to find anyone on this board (which, we admit, is "left"er than the democratic mainstream) who says he/she "loves" Castro. I personally think he's a scummy murdering demogogue myself, and I'm sure most DUers will agree with that statement. Liberals hate authoritarians whether they call themselves "Communist" or "Fascist."


Plus, we don't live in Cuba. Should we, the most advanced superpower on the earth, really be comparing ourselves, civil-liberties-wise, with a third world island ruled by some tin-pot beardo? What Castro does is HIS business. What Bush does is OUR business. If Castro discriminates against gays, well....that's pretty much par for the course, innit? But if OUR PRESIDENT proposes legislation which explicitly discriminates against gays, here in the land of the free, the "don't tread on me" nation, the proverbial shining beacon on the hill, then, Houston, we got a problem.

And just so we're all clear on this: there was no massive, organized push on the part of the GLBT community for the right to "marry" before Rove and "The Four Sisters" took some polls, discovered that it could be a useful wedge issue, and proposed AMENDING THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION (!!!!!!!!!!!!) to prohibit it. Then, and only then, did gay marriage become an issue. Once the GLBT community got wind of such heinousness, THEN did they start to make a big stink about it. Again, the problem here is Bush's desire to amend the constitution at will to shore up fundamentalist Xian support at the expense of the civil liberties of a vocal, important minority.

By the way, which European countries have "ownership societies?"
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
61. Kickity kick kick kick!
I like this thread best of all. I'm so glad to have finally created fire.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
63. "What are we fighting for?" From the archives.
accept the Fhrer's generous proposals to resolve the situation, they encouraged it to let the deadline pass, thereby providing a reason for war. The Fhrer felt obliged to strike back only after Polish troops had crossed the German border at several places. The German fight is a defensive fight. We fight because we were forced to fight by the insults and demands against us, because of the brutal suppression of ethnic Germans in Poland, and because of the open announcements that they would do everything in their power to strangle National Socialist Germany through military or economic means.

This explanation of the German defensive struggle answers the next question:

What are we fighting for?

We are fighting for our most valuable possession: our freedom. We are fighting for our land and our skies. We are fighting so that our children will not be slaves of foreign rulers. That is in no way an exaggeration or empty phrase.

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