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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:39 PM
Original message
Declining Moral Values
Repugs love to talk about the declining moral values of society which of course implies that we were at one time a "moral" society. When was that? When Ben Franklin and George Washington were bouncing from bed to bed while Jefferson was bedding down his slaves? Was it when the Rail Barrons were working Chinese coolies to death and running settler off their claims? Was it when Dewey sailed into Tokyo harbour and told the Japanese they would open trade relations with the west or he'd burn their city to the ground? Was it when the Federal Government broke EVERY SINGLE TREATY they signed with the natives?

Was it when the Pilgrims arrived to "escape religious oppression"...which meant they came here so they could oppress others.

Was it when children were working 15 hours a day in the mill and getting fired if they got injured? Was it when union workers seeking living wages were beaten, hosed, and murdered in the "gilded age"? Was it when American citizens of Japanese descent were stripped of their possessions and interred?

Was it when black aviators were dosed with Syphillis and then randomly treated with drugs or placebos? Was it when McCarthy held up an empty envelope and claimed to have a list of top government officials who were devout communists?

Was it when Bush said "Saddam Hussein has a vast supply of WMDs that he can deploy against us in 45 minutes?"

I'm serious, if our moral values have declined, WHAT THE HELL HAVE THEY DECLINED FROM? Slavery? Child Slavery? Relious Slavery? What? What is this big decline in moral values that the neocons keep claiming to be fighting against?

And how does electing a boozing, whoring, AWOL pimp from Texas STOP that moral decline?

(Note: Most of the post was lifted, with permission, from another poster in another forum. Thanks,Ante.)
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Morals are built on the foundation of philosophical bedrock.
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 12:19 AM by indigobusiness
If your philosophy is flawed, or false, or phony, or weak...so, too, will be your morality.

That is the structural problem of many of our problems.
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. declining from marriage used to be one man and one wowan?
and declining from girls used to be having sex only after marriage?

That's my guess pretending from a republican's point of view.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Ah, are more Gays Democratic than Repubiicans?
And what does this have to do with anything? The ultra right wing fundamentalists were played like a violin by Rove. Idiots voting for an idiot.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. More like declining from the days of the Hays office
and heavy handed censorship of film and television. Costumes had to be vetted, language had to be vetted, love scenes could involve only closed mouth kissing (and not much of that), and actors who played married couples had to say good night to each other across the room from their single beds. Scandal in those days could and did ruin careers, even when the papers didn't pick it up. Studios spent much time and money buying their "stable" of actors and actresses out of scrapes with the law. Reagan was one such beneficiary, as his studio made more than one rape charge go away.

This is the "decline" they all lament, the incredible hypocrisy of that era, that time of putting on a false front so the neighbors would think you were June Cleaver even as you were getting battered and drank to ease the pain.

They all want to go back to the play acting of the 50s suburb. The problem is that they don't want to go back to the New Deal reforms that gave the working class the best economic deal they ever had.

The repressed, segregated, regimented, Cold War 50s sucked bigtime, as all of us who were alive then know. I remember that era in shades of grey and brown. No wonder we all turned to drugs in the 60s.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Yeah, and it's all phoney-baloney posturing too
They don't really want to go back to the days of the Hays Office and Comstockery. They just enjoy being hectoring moralizers and getting to suck down forbidden fruit, because they know that stuff isn't going away. That Desperate Housewives ad that gave them all the vapors? Desperate Housewives is a bigger hit in Oklahoma City than Los Angeles, in Kansas City than NY City. Red Staters love their tawdry entertainment as much as the rest of us.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. They pine for an indealized '50's
Problem is the hands of the clock never run backwards. Sometimes I think the only "historical" era recognized by RWs is the '50's (with some lip service given to the Founding Fathers). Everything else seems to go past them.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. 1950's has been mythologized
The "Ozzie and Harriet" version was fake all along.

There are many sources, but perhaps Stephanie Koontz's "The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap"

Your library might have it or you can get it at amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/046509097...
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. True, about the mythologizing
But only people with a taste for reading history would know that. The '50's were Jim Crow, geisha housewives, McCarthy, a huge build-up of defense via space programs, and a bland, conformist society. Also, since we were the only large, advanced industrial economy left standing after WWII, it was the era that gave birth to American swagger and hubris, whose toxic ideology is still very much with us, unfortunately.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. True, about the mythologizing
But only people with a taste for reading history would know that. The '50's were Jim Crow, geisha housewives, McCarthy, a huge build-up of defense via space programs, and a bland, conformist society. Also, since we were the only large, advanced industrial economy left standing after WWII, it was the era that gave birth to American swagger and hubris, whose toxic ideology is still very much with us, unfortunately.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. Count on you to bring the spelling and the POV of "the other side"
One thing I appreciate about your posts. You have not used "we" yet.
P.S. What's a wowan?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. My GOP friend
voted GOP because of his tax cuts to the rich. They owe him. The cuts paid for their new Escolade. But of course, they pride themselves, into dropping a few bucks for charity to the poor. The Bush doctrine.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. check out the religious right, especially the colleges, and their
concern about a 'christian world view'......supposedly existed in US to maybe WWI

my reaction when I've heard them talk about this....'slavery, native American genocide, intense discrimination against women, child labor, etc......this is all part of a christian world view??????'.........what NT do you people read?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. The post WW2 morals
The leave it to beaver world. Add to that the idealism of how people want things to be (sort of like the movie 'it's a wonderful life').

People envisioned a country where folks were like the waltons and others mentioned above. Sure there were community problems but most people liked to think that the best course was a more prudent one where bedroom things and adult things stayed out of the public eye and we celebrated and entertained (through movies, radio, tv) the general things without the other stuff (sex, excessive violence, and so forth).

they know they exist, but why celebrate the things which do not build up character and which don't bring hope through positive messages.

Look at it in this light: A company makes a movie showing blacks as inferior, gays as pedophiles, and makes them look bad. The left generally would decry such things as they feel it could affect how people view things, it may cause others to act on them as well. All in all such things would be attacked. Why? Because we have morals and values which state say that such things can have a negative impact and can influence people. The right sees it the same but on a more diverse level (ie, sex, violence, cursing, et al). A loosening of 'morals' which they feel will lead to more teen pregnancy, more divorce, more pain, more suffering because they too feel that such a prevelant media does have an affect on people.

We are at a point where we can say 'well don't watch X and don't let your kids watch it' but on the same token we decry things which have the same problems but on a different set of things (not saying both don't cross over in values).

So we end up asking this: Does the media from comic books to radio (Rush and crew) to TV to movies have an influence? If so, even if we don't agree with them on which morals, we can better understand their view point and confusion (ie we attack things which are immoral from our view point but tell them their morals should not be defended because that is silly and censorship and destroys creativity).

Of course, the Amish don't seem to have a problem with it all ;)
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. In my view there is a difference, though I can't speak for all liberals
I would indeed decry such messages, but I would not advocate mandatory censorship of racism and bigotry in films (hence my opposition to the ADL). I still believe in individuals' right to decide for themselves.

The right-wing seems to have little restraint in doing so for sexual content and 'bad words'.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Morals, as in declining morals IS A SMOKESCREEN
what we have is a failure of the Ethical standards in the country

There was a time that lying was not ok.

There was a time that cheating was not Ok

There was a time when our word was our bond (well except in some cases you mentioned, but those were not a moral problem, but an ETHICAL PROBLEM)

Ethics and Morals are Not the same thing, and PEOPLE HAVE to use the correct term

When did this failure start? Reagan, yes Reagan... that is where it started. Iran Contra, for many complex reasons, saw no significant conseequences for the participants, hence doing what they needed (or rather wanted)to do, and getting away wiht it became acceptable

The ethics of the comons has been replaced by the ethics of the individual where I get ahead by ANY MEANS necessary. Hence the failures of Enron and our government. There are no consequences... and this is an ETHICAL problem... time for people to put the morality down and call a spade a spade... the Pugs lack ethics... not morals, ethics... and tehy are regresive. You see they want to go back to the golden age of Dredd Scott... you think that freudian slip during the debate by bush was accidental?

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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Ethos is driven by morality
ethic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (thk)
n.

A set of principles of right conduct.
A theory or a system of moral values: An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain (Gregg Easterbrook).
ethics (used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy.
ethics (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession: medical ethics.


moral ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mrl, mr-)
adj.
Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I would say less RayGun and more Nixon and Vietnam
Lies, death, and more.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Teapot Dome
Just read an article yesterday that said we are making a mistake in thinking this is some sort of new Republican party. It's not. Went all the way back to Teapot Dome and pointed out that these are typical Repulican ethics, values, whichever. Also pointed out that traditional Republicans really did think FDR was a communist and they really do think government social programs must be eliminated or the capitalist USofA won't survive. The Eisenhower and Nixon years were an anomaly because they had to moderate after the Depression or they would have disappeared altogether. Now that they've got their full power back, it's right back to the Teapot Dome type of crony capitalism.

What do you think?
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Cloud Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. It all comes down to sex
They see society and think it should be like 50's era TV shows.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Interesting
I don't watch today's television shows. They're boring, trite and worthy of snooze.
But, I do like TV Land and Nick. I like those old shows - but that's the point. Television entertainment is supposed to be NOT reality. That's what news used to be about.

I have never seen "Desparate Housewives" and don't want to. I didn't watch the Super Bowl because I KNEW the half time show is always risque and my son was still up (btw, he now likes football at age 5 and if Paul McCartney is indeed slated to be the half-time show, we will watch this year). And, yet, I vote blue.

This is why I love America. I don't fit any niche! LOL.
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lawladyprof Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. Seeing unregulated and pleasurable sex as the primary sin while
ignoring or downplaying greed as a sin.
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
15. They have had absolute power for four years.
Have we increased our morality quotient in that time? Just like positioning themselves as the party of "fiscal sanity" they have presided over the worst ethical climate in my lifetime.

In the last four years our moral deficit as increased by a proportional amount in my opinion.

Killing: Up. Especially among children in Fallujah.
Adultery: Up (at least in my red neighborhood)
Idolatry: Has this one ever gone down?
Stealing: The streets are paved with gold if you can use the rules to steal. Up!
False Testimony: Swiftliars. UP! UP! UP!
Envy: The rich have acted on their envy for the massive wealth of the middle class. Up.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. No, not really
Unless they control 60 senators, they don't have much control at all. We can, have, should blocked them, especially on judges.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. Well, Socrates (Sophaclese?) said the younger generation was
going to hell in a handbasket.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. He was right.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
17. It's not about morals
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 04:48 AM by Piperay
they can lie and say that all they want but it is really all about money-greed. You cannot be moral and be greedy, when it comes time to choose they ALWAYS go for the money over the morals.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
18. Anytime they start talking about "moral decline"
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 04:40 AM by OnionPatch
I agree and start talking about how corrupt corporate America has become. That makes them blink hard a couple times.

My new bumper sticker:

Morality Police: Out of our Bedrooms....into the Boardrooms!
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
19. It's themselves- and conservative tradition

For one thing, it's true in an empirical sense for them. What we see as people around us unable to cope with the times and high visibility, they see as non-abidence with rules. If you live in a small town in the Bible Belt and see divorce rates hitting 50% and 60%, with rising child abuse allegations and overt discussions of homosexuality being reported in the town paper, one way of looking at it is that people like you are losing control of their lives at some increasing rate.

Assuming (falsely) that you were somehow taught all wisdom you ever needed by your parents and preacher and high school teacher, you need someone to blame. It used to be OK to blame "computers" and "the Russians" and "the hippies". Now the blame game has moved on to "liberal teachers" and "Hollywood" and "Asian immigrants" and ubiquitous "antiChristian" somethingoranothers. The newest buzzword is 'Islamofascism', which is somehow different from Christian Fundamentalism by, um, ah, hmmm, uh... being practiced by Arabs rather than God's Elected People (who work for Organizations Of The Elect like Walmart and ArcherDanielsMidland and EnRon). The way to talk about everybody other than yourself and your parents being to blame for the Modern World and failure to adapt to it is (ta-da!) Moral Decline.

The Moral Decline Of The Ages is in fact a Greek historical doctrine, fabricated to explain the difference between the everyone-was-a-hero-then Trojan War days of Greece and the several centuries that followed in which nothing memorable and commendable seems to have happened. There was indeed a cultural decline and political breakdown, as seen in the archaeological finds. That it had a lot to do with the unsustainable economic system of the Trojan War era culture in a fragile ecosystem- a slavery-dependent system that led to systematic deforestation, overcultivation/desertification, slave raiding, and persistent city lootings until there wasn't much left to steal except from other thieving mini-'kingdoms' - does not figure prominently in the Greek theories of the Decline.

Ultimately, the Moral Decline theory is absurd. It's an attempt to reinforce conservative doctrine and pretend that it's adequate to reality. It has to pretend that there's only one significant point in human History: Creation. It has to ignore Destiny, and the implicit necessity of transformative change between the two (which is the great enemy to conservative theory). And it's a religiously pagan idea: the Biblical idea is that the Fall in Eden is the real beginning of human History, that everything since has been Progress toward reattaining divine attributes. (Of course, this means that conservative Christians who moan on and on about Moral Decline are not 'getting' what the Bible is telling them, but since the Christianity they believe in is pretty much all pagan accretions, they can't be persuaded of the point.)

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GingerSnaps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. Republicans have no morals!
They are a bunch of hypocrites and that is why it's declining.

They can't have things two ways. They say that they are against abortions but they are against welfare programs to feed the kids and the poor. The don't want abortions but then again they don't care if people starve to death :wow: Something isn't right with the way that they process information. :think:
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
23. Why, the "good ol'days" of course. You must have seen the jokular
spam going around where the fifties are the golden age! You can't not see it!
No sex on teevee, no internets, darkies were staying in their place, drinking from their own fountain....
until YOU, libruls destroyed this paradise with your drugs and rock and roll.
Come on, you saw Pleasantville!
And His Chimpness wisely slept through the sinful 60's (with some chemical aid that he properly repented for when he was saved) and woke up, a 50's pure person in the decaying 21 century to save us from Clintoons "hangover" (all that phony peace & prosperity was a hangover - really - W said so). So, we are now wide awake, going to AA and spreading some of our good morals to the people whose skin is not as good as us - but can still govern themselves - so there.
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
26. For me moral values meant


When companies treated their employees more like family members than like cattle.

When it only took 1 wage earner to earn a living and 1 parent could stay home. The kids turned out better, daylight crime was less, people knew each other more and there was more of a sense of community.

When most places were closed on Sunday and the whole community had one day when they were all home at the same time. I think that made it more of a community even if they didn't go to church.

When most people worked 40 hours or less, and commuted less so they had more time to eat a meal and spend time at home with their families and friends.

Of course all of those moral values would hurt big business so the Repubs would never champion them.
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bo44 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
27. moral values equals whiteousness
When folks actually begin to deviate from the "white is right so I am going to take it from your yellow, black, brown or red ass" the whiteous conservative hornblowers bleat the message to the whiteous faithful to not fall for the "immorality" of the few who try to argue that what is going on is wrong. Immoral values being any idea, product, or action that deviates from the whiteous. Indignation that one of their own dares not toe the line of whiteous conservatism.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. Now that's just ignorant.
How old are you?
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
30. They're just plain wrong.
Crime fell every year under the Clinton administration in almost all categories. Abortion rates also fell by the way.

Sorry Republicans, but Grand Theft Auto III isn't the end of Western Civilization as we know it.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Crime trends 1993-2003
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