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resist Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:18 AM
Original message
Secession movement
I've read that here is a fairly active secession movement. (I thought I was the only one) But a yahoo search did not turn up any actually formed gr9oups - just blogs and pundit articles, etc. Does anyone at DU know if there is a public-ased group actively discussing the idea of secession? Thanks
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. Please, secession will never happen.
Otherwise Idaho would have been a separate country years ago.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Well, not w/ that attitude. Movements take time, but they have to
start somewhere. I refuse to accept that rational, liberal people in america will be forever held back by the superstitious, clannish, hateful, warmongering people.
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Ask the hundreds of thousands of dead from last time
This issue is as dead as they are.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Do you think the Reds would be willing to lose that many this time?
I think they'd probably be glad to see us go. Everybody assumes that secession necessarily means Civil War 2. Not necessarily so.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. At the Montgomery Convention
which wrote the Confederate Constitution and elected President Davis, there was much hope that there would be no war then either.

The Confederategovernment had sent a delegation to negotiate in Washington and there was no reason why the separation couldn't be accomplished peacefully, except it wasn't.

Same thing would happen this time, and cities would burn and General Sherman's name would be chanted while they burned. It would be a quite delayed revenge.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #30
47. Negotiation was naive
Especially since the Confederates negotiated from a position of economic and political weakness, and the very political change the most politically fervent and involved people of the North wanted (the end of slavery) required that the South remain in the Union.

This isn't true now. The most rabid Southern reactionaries would look at the loss of the North as good riddance. And the North and West is, as always, the stronger part of the US.

One way to go about it now is to create compacts on issues and programs abandoned or abused by the Feds, plus be obstructionist at every turn, plus wait for the inevitable economic implosion to weaken the fed government.

I personally think that secession is not just possible, it's inevitable. There is no way to heal the rift within this nation between those who aspire to a nation governed internally by the bible and in foriegn affairs by Iranian and Israeli spies and Saudi money, and those who prefer government by the Constitution and the rule of international law. The nation is heading at high speed towards international isolation, economic collapse, and of course towards active internal resistance on the part of many. I don't see how we're going to keep a Vermont and an Alabama in the same union after that.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Wow, i think i found my soul-mate :) I agree completely.
Maybe we should run a poll over in Freeper-land and see if they would want to fight or let us go, in the event of Blue-state secession.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
76. I bet a poll of the north
would have showed a majority for letting the south go too. Didn't matter what the people thought though.

Lincoln got just less than 40 % in 1860. Didn't matter.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Yeah, well, the North won!!!
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RegexReader Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
82. my father was saying that the US would break up
way back in the 1960's and everyone laughed at him. When the USSR and the Wall fell in a matter of weeks, he said that the collapse of the US would be even quicker.

I believe him today.

RegexReader
$USA =~ s/Republican/Democrat/ig;

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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. Hey, i'm not saying war's not possible, but it's also not inevitable
Things were a lot different back then; countries were willing to lose a lot more people in wars. Plus, as i noted elsewhere, if there was a shooting war, most other western countries would probably be on our side. (okay, i know this is getting into pure imagination now) But also, it wouldn't be like the blue states couldn't back down if it looked like the cost was getting too high. It wouldn't be everything's honk-dory one day, and total obliteration the next day.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. There are other, smarter, ways to go about it n/t
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. Here in California, we're ready
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
64. Sign up with me
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #38
66. But is Arnold ready?
Remember him? The B-movie muscleman, steroid abuser, and serial sexual predator whom oh-so-enlightened Californians have given an approval rating of 65%? How does he feel about it?
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. Considering how much the blue states pay in taxes
that would not be a bad idea. Let the red states eat cake.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. The southern states had the same complaint
in the 1850's. There was no income tax back then. The main tax was the tariff on manufactured goods which was paid heavily by the southern agricultural states on imports from England and France. Why should we pay high taxes to prop up the factories of the Yankees was the question then.
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Rumba Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. http://christianexodus.org/
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resist Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Uh . . . thanks
I was sort of hoping for a site advocating a leftist secession . . . ? but thanks.
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
68. Here is a California Secessioninst web page!
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. sounds like another Waco group
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Ugh
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

And I'm a Christian who will not take part in this "exodus." I need to find a way out of Jesusland.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. whether we formally secede or not....
we are now living in two Americas, not with geogrpahic borders but in terms of world views, values, and perceptions of right and wrong.

I think the divisions will continue to grow sharper and clearer in the days, weeks and years to come.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. That sounds like a good reason to start the secession movement now
it will only get stronger.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. Exactly; gotta get the ball rolling sometime, but of course it's
not going to happen over night.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. SUCCESS not SECESSION. eom
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
62. what?
are you trying to correct the spelling of the word secession or are you trying some cute play on words?

theProdigal
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benevolent dictator Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. http://secession.meetup.com/
just did a quick search. looks like there's only one group that's really active in anything, but hey, it could be worth checking out.

http://secession.meetup.com/
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NoodleBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
11. Secession/Immigration is for pussies
It's the national equivalent of saying "If you don't play the games I want to play I'm taking my ball and going home."

We're not being rounded up and shot. Our party headquarters are not being firebombed. As far as I know, eggs are not thrown at us as we walk down the street because of our political ideologies.

Give it time-- I know the vote fraud people would rather claim we have no chance of ever electing a Democratic official again, ever, we're working on getting the ball firmly back on our side of the court.

And yes... this will probably be deleted.
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LDS Jock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. How is it different than when our forefathers immigrated?
Our nation is a nation of immigrants. People have come here for many reasons, including political. Why are those who want to leave for political reasons "pussies" but those who come here are not?

I thought about leaving, as many did, mostly about being able to be married in another country. I've decided to stay. Things may not be perfect here, but I'd like to work to better our country. Alone I may not make any difference but I'll die trying.
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NoodleBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. You can't compare now to our forefathers' times
There are too many differences. They didn't come from a democracy, they were being denied jobs, their children were starving (to death), they were being evicted from their homes, and their relatives who agitated for reform were being imprisoned and executed, all on a massive scale.

And yes, I know the likelihood of someone following up this post with "Well the same thing is happening now..." is about 80%.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
34. While I agree...
NoodleBoy,
While I agree that one cannot compare the circumstances that pushed our fore fathers with our own dilemma, I would greatly encourage you to review your history. The reasons for them seeking their independence were more connected to the economy -- in fact the reasons you listed have not been in any history book of the American Revolution that I've ever read. Their grievances had to do with being taxed without representation, the French Indian War, wars going on in Europe, the Boston Tea Party, the so-called "Boston Massacre," the Sugar Act, the Tea Act, the Stamp Act, the Townshend Act, the Quartering Act, the Quebec Act, Tom Paine's pamphlet "Common Sense" -- the "Intolerable Acts" really pushed them over board. Not to mention the fact that they'd hardly be dumping tea into the water if "their children were starving." Imprisonment? Executions? There were few cases of those -- in fact the British were rather civil until aggression turned to fighting. Massive scale? Re-read your history. While there are definitely differences they are not in the manner you mentioned. To quote an economist of our times in regards to the birth of any revolution:
"It's the economy stupid."

:evilgrin:
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NoodleBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. I was referring to why people immigrated to the US
I know my history.
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renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I agree.
We have to stay here and fight. Otherwise, it will be a domino theory....we move up to Canada and the Religious Right spreads their crusade up there, too. We have to stand our ground and put out OUR OWN legislation (i.e. civil unions for everyone) instead of just fighting against right-wing legislation.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
35. Amen to that!
We can't put our collective tails between our legs and run. As good men -- and I use that loosely as I mean women too -- we have to stand up for what we know to be right and fight for those who lack either the courage or strength to fight. However, I do think that there would be a time and place for secession -- just not in our situation. After all, where'd America be had it not been for a gang of Puritans and Presbyterians getting on ships and coming here en mass?

;)
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. OM F-ing G. So sue me if i don't want Blue America to continue
dragging the Reds states behind us like a ball and chain for the next thousand years. Maybe i'm a "pussy," but destructive, co-dependant relationships are not my thing.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Literally Laughing Out Loud
I'm not laughing at you as so much with you. That post -- in all of its obvious passion -- has a very common sense approach to it. I can see where you're coming from, but I just don't think it has gotten bad enough for us to cut ourselves off from the rest of the UNITED STATES. Now when they start ostracizing us, showing discrimination, and the U.S. becomes a land of Coulters and Limbaughs, then I say it will be high time we cut our losses and high tale it out of this place. I do know that I am dammed sick and tired of hearing honorable words like "Progressive, " "Democrat," and "Liberal" dragged through the muck through. And if this ultra-right-wing fundamentalist wacko shit continues, I do feel that they will begin persecutions -- not prosecutions, mind you -- on the basis of ideology, dogma, and what they see as moral, patriotic and religious heresy. Something must be done to counteract the rising tide of dissent -- on their side -- against democratic morays, principles, and folkways.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. On the one hand, the situation now is "tolerable," i suppose,
but i have just come to the conclusion that it is *never* going to get any better, and we (the blue states) could be doing so much better without having to constantly drag the red states kicking and screaming into every single, completely just, wise, and necessary social/political/governmental advance.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. Methinks you are forgetting where the "bread basket" is located
Certainly not in NY, NJ, MASS, CONN, DC, WASH, OR, MI, WI, PENN, VT, etc., and though California is certainly rich in food, it would have to be transported across red states to get to the east. Please also remember that a lot of these states are purple, with some true red areas, as there are many red areas in blue states. For instance, in this red state of Louisiana (that has a dem gov. and one dem sen.) we produce sugar, rice, soybeans, corn, seafood, beef, pork, etc., not to mention New Orleans where the best food in the world exists, along with a charm factor bar none. Face it, we are a mix in every state. We need to be concentrating on how to co-exist with the fundies, and they need to realize that we are just as necessary in this country as they are. They seem to think that all liberals are non-working, welfare queens, who have sex a lot and then abort the results. Some education is in order. The first step should be some kind of liberal television with an aim to examining our similarities and differences. Education is what is lacking in this country. The "dumbing down of America" is the catalyst for our downfall.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. I'm living in the bread basket (SD), but i have no doubt that all
obstacles can be overcome. Of course it would take changes and adjustment. And btw, don't we buy food and a lot of other stuff from foreign countries right now? And what about getting food from Canada? or as has been suggested, joining up in some kind of federation with Canada? As far as learning how to live together, look, at a certain point you have to realize that people are not going to change. I'm sure you've seen the maps of the Confederacy matched up with Bush voting states - there has been no change in the essential character of the red vs. blue states in over 200 years; you are truly an optimist if you think that there will be any signifigant change in the future. Also, yes of course there are blue people in red states and vice versa, but the 51% is all that counts.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #51
73. Since no one else will say it
I will.

Go fuck yourself. You contribute nothing but "I'm so much better than everyone because my state went for Kerry" horseshit that adds nothing to this website nor anywhere else. In fact, it's people like you that just load ammo right into the gun of the right-wing with your histrionics, whining, and desperation to be an elitist.

So, I reiterate, please go fuck yourself.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Uh, excuse me, my state (SD) went 62% Bush, and FUCK YOU!
And it would probably be hard for me to be an elitist on less than $10K a year, don't you think? Let me reiterate, FUCK YOU, if you have a problem with free speech and cannot respond to anything on the basis of facts and logic. But on the bright side (for you), you're probably going to get your wish to keep the cold civil war going in america indefinitely, so you can just fight 24/7 for the rest of your life. Me, i'm leaving for bluer pastures at the earliest opportunity. And did i mention, FUCK YOU, and enjoy your permanent war.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
56. You have a point
about dragging those states around like a ball and chain. One of the directions I would like to see DUers take is to work for $1 for $1 tax equality. Each state gets back what they pay in. I know it would be very unpopular in many states but it would be fair to the taxpayers. They would be aiding their own state where they have something to say about how the money is used in their own community.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-04 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. Succession is stupid.
Edited on Sun Nov-21-04 07:20 PM by Jackie97
You all say you're sorry to the world. I think the world believes us when we say that. However, they might not believe us if we succeed and leave the most WMDs in the world in the hands of war hawks and crazy fundamentalists.

I'm not questioning you all's progressivism. I'm just saying that we need to think about the world here, and not just ourselves. We can't succeed from the union.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
37. Right on, Jackie!
If we did that we'd be no different than this damn * administration, because we'd be taking the path that is only concerned about us. Ultimately, that would lead to Bush's America coming after us for the same reason they went after Saddam -- "Either you're with us or against us," "Axis of Evil," and who can forget "Pose an imminent threat"? They've already started the lies calling us un-patriotic and un-American -- we'd only substantiate such falsehoods by seeking to dissolve this union which has stood for over two centuries. I don't know about you guys, but in my opinion that is an awful lot of history to divorce ones selves from...
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
45. With the brain drain that would go to the blue states,
if there was a split, I doubt the reds would know how to build or repair those fancy weapons. Remember who built the bomb and why it happened here and not in Germany.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #45
63. Bush led among college graduates.
The notion that all of the country's intellect is to be found in "blue states" is just another one of those comforting fictions that we have wasted too much time on.
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Ifonly Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-04 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. I think it is worth considering
A few years ago on a indymedia site I suggested that states start seceding. I suggested Hawaii secede first. And then Oregon and then Washington. And start eating away at the country like that. What I liked about this idea, is that, Bush keeps talking about giving people freedom to govern themselves. But I KNOW he would take drastic measures to stop this (possibly including military - after all this would be another example of the domino effect). It would show to everyone what a hypocrite he is (not that most people need to be shown this I suppose). And think of this: Hawaii threatens to secede. Bush talks to representatives of Hawaii. They say, ok, we won't secede if you agree to whatever. Now you have some power over Bush. If enough states got together to do this, now you have lots of power over Bush.

But I suspect most states probably get so much money from Washington that they've become dependent on that they wouldn't even consider it.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Hi Ifonly!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Perhaps the other way 'round
I think that most of the states that are candidates for secession are net providers of revenue to the rest of the country. It isn't the states in question that would suffer, it's Jesusland.

Which is an even better explanation of why it won't happen.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
40. Do You Realize...
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 01:49 AM by Stand and Fight
Do you realize the sheer gravity of what you are saying? Secession from this nation which has stood for over two and a quarter centuries... I don't know about the rest of you, but I think it is wholly irresponsible to even entertain this notion without giving clear thought to the state of things. I hate the course that our nation as taking as much as the next person, but I am a long way from suggesting that we break off into a separate state. Yes, things are bad and I agree that we are very much heading toward a one party state, but we have to fight against that for the good of the country, for the good of democracy, for the good of the world. Talk like this is focusing more on the problems rather than trying to come up with viable solutions. I subscribe to the school of thought that says this last election was stolen, but I would never go as far as to break away from my fatherland for that reason.

In many ways, I feel the left is just as guilty as the right in some respects. I mean, for the love of God, was it necessary to go so far as to remove prayer from school, to teach in schools that homosexuality is okay, or to do as some of you are doing now -- entertaining thoughts of secession. I hate to be the drum beater here, but someone has to speak up as the voice of reason. I'm with you guys -- I think the current presidential administration and the far right-wing agenda is going way too far. Further than any left wing agenda ever attempted to go in this country, but I don't think that it has gotten so bad as to even bring up such notions as these. We have a responsibility as patriots to exhaust every means at our disposal to fight the insanity that seems to be gripping the majority of America. We find ourselves in an unjust war that we cannot win -- it is a war of ideologies and history has shown us that such wars can drag on forever with no clear victor.

Furthermore, let's talk about unstable individual nations having WMDs -- do you really want the Bush administration and like administrations in the future to have such weapons to threaten the world with? I would certainly hope not! Let's not discount the fact that this current circus of dangerous fundamentalist would stop at nothing to keep power -- part of having power is the ability to control the lives of others. Do you really think, for a minute, that they'd let the so-called blue states go without declaring it a holy war?!? I don't. I would not put it past them. Their minds are so corrupted by misconceptions of reality, that they will not hesitate to go from calling you their country men to calling you traitors, domestic terrorist. We must be the party of moderation that will seek to fight the opposition, but to do so in a democratic SANE fashion.

Lastly, if we even were to somehow dislodge ourselves from the U.S., we'd be no better than that hypocrite in the White House, because we'd be turning our backs on those who can't fight or lack the courage to do so. That would make us no better than this administration, because we would only be concerned about ourselves. We know that we are the on the right side in this current debate of morals. It is imperative that we fight against the madness overtaking OUR country, lest we be swept up in a maelstrom of hellish proportions.
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SnowBack Donating Member (335 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #40
69. Nice to see bigotry raise it's ugly head here too...
Teaching homosexuality is OK in schools? Oh my... Next thing you know, THOSE people will want to live without being attacked... They might want EQUALITY...

Spare me the "we are on the right side in this current debate of morals"... YOU aren't...

:puke:
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. No, no, friend.
I think you misunderstand the tone behind my post. I suggest you reread it, because I was not at all saying what you think. TRUST me on this one. I am sorry for the misunderstanding, but believe me I am a HUGE supporter of gay rights. Trust me on this.
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. Canada does seem tempting but....
We can't leave the GOP to do what they want with the world completely unopposed...
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. Fairly active secessionist movement = chatter on web
The only thing I've seen that is close to organized is the "free state" movement which is libertarian and even they are not talking seccession persay(they want libertarians to move to a small state like WY and create a voting bloc).

Ecotopia has been bandied about but more in the wishful sense.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. How many problems have been solved by a new line on a map?
Waiting to hear from the historians out there....

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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
59. How bout the Berlin Wall coming down, or the American Revolution?
I'd say that those redrawing of the maps were pretty significant. And yes, it would be great if we could just get the red states to see the light and we could all live together happily ever after, but seriously, it ain't gonna happen.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
24. The fact that people here talk of secession is not a good sign of things
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 08:11 PM by Selatius
I don't remember people speaking about this issue in as cavalier a fashion as people are doing today in my whole life. I always remembered people talking about regrouping and adjusting to changes in the nation, but I don't recall people talking about pulling out. There's only been two, perhaps three times, in American history where talk of sedition was frank and out in the open before today.

Things have changed from before. That's all I can tell given the election and the ever present danger of corporatism. There's always been the problem of greed overtaking politics, but it seems it's gotten to the point where it has become intolerable to a good many people here. They divide us by playing on religious issues, while they consolidates more power and blame the consequences on those who want to resist (scapegoating people for problems of the nation).

Yes, I think it's time to be frank about the situation. The corporatist media's manipulations have shown us differences that have always existed between separate regions of the country. No one here can honestly say that southerners are very much like people on the west coast or the northeast, and no one could say that they are incredibly different from folks in the midwest. Let's look seriously at our cultural differences and our differences over values. This has always been a fixture of American history. What has largely trumped those differences is our collective dedication to the system our Founders established.

The thing that appears different now is that certain people are regularly politicizing these differences in the search for more power and control, and I don't think that's a healthy thing because the implication is that you aren't American if you believe in the "wrong ideal" or come from the "wrong place." It splits us into an us vs. them dynamic that will only lead to more trouble.

I don't know where we're heading as a country. If things change for the better, that's great. If things continue to deteriorate, if the government becomes destructive to our way of life beyond what is tolerable, then I won't say what will happen except to say that it could be something we don't want to see. If certain politicians and other individuals continue to play on regionalism and the politics of division and ridicule, the result won't be good unless it is stopped.

The question is whether they can be stopped in time or whether the system has become so overcome by the rot of corruption and cronyism and greed that the only recourse in the future is to either demand justice and hope it's granted or fight a tyranny that refuses to give in.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Secession would let 'em have their damned Arnold for president, though.
I've often wondered about that, just as a kind-of-fun mental exercise. For those regressives who'd love to further shred our Constitution so our dear darling Gropenator could be president - well, then, fine. Let's talk California breaking away. Go ahead and HAVE your Arnold.

Yeah, it's too wild an idea. But I must admit I have thought of dangling the Arnold inducement in front of a few people...
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. A question for you what if'ers out there?
Edited on Thu Nov-25-04 10:21 PM by Yupster
How would the world have progressed if the south were allowed to go peacefully last time?

No Civil War

What happens to slavery?

No 600,000 dead?

Ideas?
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Boosterman Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. There are some real cool
novels along this Line. I only read one. By Harlan Ellison I THINK. (prob wrong) Do a search on Amazon.com and you can probably find some stuff. There were also some comics published in the 80s about Super Heroes in a world like this (yes I am a sci fi geek). Basically the south in the 80s was the south in the 50s. Its own little independent nation who were 30 years behind the times. The Shadowrun RPG has an interesting story about how the whole US breaks up into about 6 different nations.


This moment in geek background brought to you by Boosterman
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
60. I think that slavery would have persisted for a while, but even
the Confederates eventually follow where the rest of the civilized world goes. So it would have been a trade-off - slavery lasts a little longer, but all the people don't die. However, staying together has probably retarded what could have been great progress by the blue states.
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Dan Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
33. Sedition
is a crime...

If you really wanted to pursue this, better get a throw away notebook, wireless connectivity, ready cash - and a network of friends that you can trust.

Regardless of how bad things might get (or they might get better post Bush), one thing you can be sure of, the central government will not willingly give up its States.

If there is a group(s) that are actively discussing sedition, I would bet money that if it is seeking to expand its membership then it has already been infiltrated by the central authorities. Remember your history, what happened during 1960-1975 - remember (I think it was: ) COUNTERINTELPRO of the sixties.

Regardless of what you think of Bush and his administration, remember this one thing - he does not give a damn about individual rights; and your individual rights are truly curtailed when you threaten the Nation State. And, any lawyer familiar with Constitutional law could probably share with you, that while you may like to speak from the "Declaration of Independence", you operate as a citizen under the Constitution. I remember once during the Vietnam war, the 'Declaration of Independence' was read - and most adults that heard it thought it was some type of communist propaganda.

The reasons that resulted in the forming of this nation - probably do face us today; yet, the government is not that liberal.

Just a thought... and I may be wrong... :think: :think: :think: :think:
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #33
61. Yes, i was wondering about the legality of this whole discussion :)
Clearly the sentiment expressed in the declaration of independance supports it, but we are living in a country with a government gone mad.
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jesusq Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
39. If at first you don't secede, try states rights
Reverting to States Rights is the best way (perhaps the only way) stop the Pharisee leadership of Jesusland from invading our borders.

http://www.revolutionleft.org/news_articles/secede_1116...
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Traction Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
41. I honestly don't see how anyone could oppose secession
Whether you are a right-wing conservative or a left-wing liberal, secession works for you immensely. The only people that I can see opposing it are the uninformed and moderates, but to me those two groups are the main things wrong with this country anyway. If you're uninformed you have no one to blame but yourself, and if you're a moderate you have no backbone and should get a clue and pick a side. Stay on the left side and you're fine. Stay on the right side (although Ill disagree with you) and you're fine. Stay in the middle and get squished like a grape.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. That's what the southerners thought too
They could just leave peacefully. Both sides will be happier, so why the fuss.

Then the armies started moving.
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Traction Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Perhaps we should have let them go then
No 600,000+ dead, and the Democrats would be easily winning national elections (although Republicans still would won in 1980, 1984, and 1988).
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. A minor point
Oh those couple million slaves.
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Traction Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. The war wasn't only about slavery
And even so, was it really worth 600,000 dead and having to deal with radical Southern conservatives in the Senate all these years? Was it worth Democrats losing presidential elections because of Southern states? Slavery would have peacefully ended before 1900 anyways, as it was on its way out accross the advanced world anyway.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. I hear that statement a lot lately
Saying that the Civil War was not about slavery is hard to reconcile with the historical record. If we go by what the people said at the time, the war was about slavery, as much as anything could possibly be about anything else.

The leaders of the Confederacy thought it was. The citizens of the South and the Confederate soldiers thought that it was. The slaves thought that it was. Certainly the Republicans in the North thought that it was. The Democratic party leadership, North and South thought that it was. The Union soldiers, although many of them placed maintaining the Union as a greater cause initially, came to see the war as being about slavery.

The populations and the governments of England and France thought that the war was about slavery. The overwhelming majority of historians and researchers about the war think that the war was about slavery.

The mere suggestion of using Black soldiers in the Confederacy ruined General Patrick Cleburne's career in the Confederacy, because, as Jefferson Davis said, if they used slaves as soldiers, the whole reason for the war and the existence of the Confederacy would collapse.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #48
65. Ah, but slavery is a very small price to pay,
apparently, to prevent affluent, privileged DUers from having to deal with those who annoy them.

:eyes:

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
52. How about if blue areas just secede from Red States?
The Great Commonwealth of Durham and Chapel Hill could secede from North Carolina. We really ought to have our own two senators anyway.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
57. I am just curious: Does anyone know
where we can read the "Constitution of Canada" on-line?
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #57
67. Here is the Canadian Constitutional document link
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Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
70. Only idiots, liars and disruptors discuss this crap...
Idiots = Kooks and Nutters. They conspiracy crowd...The kind of people you should never take seriously.

Liars = Those who talk big but would NEVER leave America or split from America because they know, even with all our warts, we're the best thing going on the planet (These are the same kind of people who lie and state they'll leave if So and So wins).

Disruptors = Those who are here to try to make us all look bad.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Okay, bend over and ask Rove for another one.
America's the best thing on the planet? Why, because we have the biggest military? Hmmm, some people in this party think there is more to the measure of a nation than the size of it's military. No one would ever leave? Ha. Hey, if you want to spend the rest of your life at war with half of America, i'm sure you can find someone on the other side willing to fight with you. However, some of us would rather just live in peace in a modern, liberal, peace-loving country.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Then fucking leave
n/t
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
80. Yeah, when i move to Canada i guess that'll show me!
Ooooh, what are you all testy about? Truth is, as soon as i graduate i'm going to move either to a blue state or to Canada. Sorry, i just don't see a whole lot of virtue in continuing to be locked into never-ending conflict. I can only assume that you think that the war will be "won" at some time in the near future, despite the fact that there has been no change in the essential division between North and South for over 200 years. Gotta give you credit for optimism, and enjoy your war!
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Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Self delete...Dupe.
Edited on Sun Nov-28-04 07:32 PM by Reality Not Tin Foil
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Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. Big talker...
Please...Feel free to prove that you've left.

Here's a hint...You can't. You don't have the courage.


And in case you're interested, America is the best thing on the planet due to our constitution.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. Uh, i packed up my stuff, with no where to go 12 years ago;
drove around the country until i found a place i liked, and stayed there. I got fed up with where i was living and i left. I live in SD now, which i like pretty well for a number of reasons, but the whole American political situation is getting to me. Truth is, i would have already left, but i'm waiting till i graduate with my degree in Mining Engineering. And you can believe that Canada is going to be on the top of my job-search list. You people *must* be kidding if you think i would be "afraid" to leave, or some such thing. The only obstacle is the greater difficulty of moving to another country vs. moving within one's own country. You guys can be martyrs for the "Union;" i'll send you a card from Canada (or California, Vermont, Massachusettes, etc.).
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