Are we allowed to bash Kerry yet?

[redsoxliberal]

I thought we should forsake guys like Dean and Clark because Kerry would win? Wait. WHY DIDN'T HE WIN???
We nominated an inferior candidate on the pretence that he would win.
We can never let this happen again. I will never, ever vote for someone who voted for a genocidal war or anyone who will ever, EVER vote to curtail our freedom. I will never vote for someone who is against equal rights. Next time, I will not take any shit about 'Kucinich is not electable' or 'Clark is a republican' or 'Dean has a temper.' At least THEY stand up for what they believe in, and are willing to take a stand after the election instead of conceeding at the first oppurtunity.

[GRLMGC]

1. Sigh

It's already been happening. Do what you want but don't expect everyone to agree with you.

[redsoxliberal]

4. I want a real democrat to win!

I was prepared to hold my nose to work my ass off for Kerry if it meant getting Bush out of office. With Kerry, we have become republican jrs, and STILL lost the election! We made a mockery of what we stand for, worked our asses off, and John Kerry was not prepared to go the extra mile. I worked for someone that ripped my candidate continously in the primaries, and he didn't win.

[LittleClarkie]

45. Are you allowed. Yes. Without rebuttal. No.

Nuanced, isn't it.

Personally I'll stick to being one of the 49ers, not the 40whiners.

(49ers -- hrrr, thanks sorryeverybody.com)

Dude, I see you're probably a political newbie. If I'm reading your profile correctly, you worked for a candidate you count even vote for yet. Thank you for that. I mean it. (either that or you're trolling for jail bait, in which case I ain't talkin' to ya any more.)

Vote for who you're gonna vote for. I'll do the same. If it comes up Kerry again, nobody says you have to work for him (I suspect people will be back on board if either a Bush son or Rove rear their heads again though). If it's whoever your next candidate turns out to be, I will work for him.

Meanwhile, say what you want. If I have an rebuttal for it, you can bet your sweet bippy I will be there to comment.

Erica
John Kerry Back Watch

[redsoxliberal]

58. thanks for your friendly response.

I always believed in ABB. My protest here was that we went for someone who, In my view, may have pushed the party too close to the republicans. I want reform in the Democratic Party, and I believe that Kerry did not represent that.

BTW, I laughed out loud at the trolling for jailbait line... I'm 15.
:D

[merh]

133. If you are 15, you have not yet experienced life and

because of that I will not flame you for your naive notions. I will respond that you are sadly mistaken about John Kerry and you need to stop now and go research the man's 30 years of public service. Then you will see he is not a repuke lite. He has one of the most liberal records in the senate. Of course, you have your opinion and I have mine. Kerry was the best of all of the candidates.

The party does not need reform, the voting process and the media need to be corrected or reformed.

[St. Jarvitude]

144. I'm 16 - let me share my take on it

I don't blame John Kerry for any of this. From what I know of him, John Kerry is a great man. He served our country with honor and distinction, and had the courage to speak out against the same war he was involved with after he completed his tour. He served in our Senate with distinction, and now especially he seems to have fire in his belly to get bills that need to be passed through his chamber.

I believe that John Kerry succumbed to the same disease as Al Gore. He gave up his independence and marginalized his great liberal principles to try to win the Presidency. He let another entity - the DLC - set his platform and his agenda. And this is what killed him.

You will never see me bash John Kerry, because what he did is simply human. I think that now, he realizes that, and the passion building inside of him after Nov. 2 is his realization that he can never again sell out his principles for power. You can see the same sort of passion in Al Gore's eyes.

[merh]

147. Is it selling out your principles or reaching out to those are

don't share all of your principles but who are looking for some answers? :shrug:

I hope you become involved in politics and run for an office one day, then you will appreciate that there are no black and whites, only varied and murky shades of gray.

peace :hi:

[ebayfool]

162. sweet bippy - gawd, I haven't heard that one in a long time!

Jeeze, thanks - now I feel really old! :eyes:

[merh]

128. Delete

Delete because I made a mistake!
:dunce:

[JohnKleeb]

129. The irony is and I am not saying he's republican lite, the poster

but as we despise what we detest, we often become that, that's why I don't encourage purging, well and the fact it's wrong.

[merh]

130. Sorry JohnKleeb - I posted in the wrong place - my humble

apologies. I will delete it from under your post and repost it in the appropriate place. Please forgive me ;-) :hug: I love Kerry and hate these damned liars that refer to him as a repuke or repuke lite!

[JohnKleeb]

131. I didnt even notice

repub lite is a pretty big charge I say, I do however believe as I said that sometimes when we try to avoid being what we detest, we often become it. An example is the Soviet Communists who became in tyranny much like the Czarists who they over threw.

[merh]

136. I agree with you - look what is happening to our nation and our

citizens. All they detest and rally against (terrorism), yet, who is the terrorist in Iraq and who were the citizens?

[JohnKleeb]

140. good point

[formernaderite]

166. Hold on now...apparently it wasn't Kerry...it was the Osama tape...

that made him lose. Arghhhhh....

[Karmadillo]

2. Yet? You're several days late. We're already done with Kerry and have

moved on to bashing the 2008 nominee.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

3. A. Fucking. Men.

:thumbsup:

[gWbush is Mabus]

5. to answer your question

he didn't win b/c of the media
Kerry was an excellent candidate

they have an agenda - mainly, to support republicans

same thing would have happened to Dean
in fact, it did!

[BillZBubb]

12. Kerry was NOT an excellent candidate.

Kerry had way too much baggage from his Senate votes. Kerry was absolutely TERRIBLE about explaining his positions. Plus, he was all over the map--he needed to pick three or four issues and discuss those ad nauseum.

Although he kicked ass in the debates, that wasn't enough. He needed to provide a big majority of the country something to get excited about, something to rally around. He didn't do that, so fear won over unextracted hope.

[gWbush is Mabus]

14. he did do that...the media just didn't report it

[BillZBubb]

29. Funny, I followed closely and I never heard a short, good

explanation for "I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it". Even his explanation for the IWR vote was too verbose.

Plus, he was all over the map on too many issues. He didn't drive home one over-arching theme. He should have done that in the debates and he didn't. Probably his delivery just isn't adequate to inspire enthusiasm through television.

[emulatorloo]

35. He explained it - they just didn't put it on TV

When Kerry was presented unfiltered in the debates, he did great.

The rest of the time he was filtered. . .clips shown of Kerry while pundits talked over him and summarized poorly what he said, leaving out the best parts. Meanwhile showing cherry-picked clips of Bush where he was articulate.

[BillZBubb]

148. One big problem--Kerry needed to do it in the debates.

You knew, I knew, and he knew the debates were his best opportunity to get his message directly to the people.

Sure, he did great in the debates, but only in a tactical sense. Strategically, he did OK, but not good enough. Everyone with any brains came out of the debates knowing Kerry was a better debater than Bush*. They probably also figured out Kerry was smarter than Bush* as well. But, what didn't happen was a massive turn to Kerry from lukewarm Bush* supporters.

The only way that could have happened was by Kerry offering an inspiring vision. He didn't. He offered a laundry list--just like his stump speeches.

[BlueCaliDem]

164. How's This One...

...the media refused to give his answer, and even sided with Bush by repeating it over, and over again, without at least countering, that every President in history has raised taxes in a time of war except THIS one!

Kerry explained it clear enough for me several times, but those damned cutaways.

Kerry voted for the 87 billion when it was agreed by the Senate, that Bush would reverse a part of the taxcuts to the top 2 percent of the wealthiest Americans, instead of burdening our children.

The Senate sent it back to the WH, and this news got some limited coverage on this, (John King for Judy Woodruff on Inside Politics) and seven days later, as Bush had promised, he vetoed the bill, and returned it to the Senate without a change, and that's when Kerry, and Edwards voted against it.

That you were unable to hear, or see any of this isn't his fault.
Like with the sorry coverage of the theft of the 2000, 2002 and 2004 elections, Republican owned-and-operated broadcast media skew their programs to favor RW and Republicans, and if you don't believe it, visit Mediamatters.com; David Brock's site where he explains how bamboozled, and brainwashed America has become!

Remember also, that according to statistics, 84% of Americans get their news from broadcast media.

[LSparkle]

17. His biggest mistake was not admitting he was duped by *

into his IWR vote. If he had just said he'd vote differently now (knowing what we now know), he'd have won over a lot of people who thought his Iraq position was contradictory and confusing. But he couldn't bring himself to admit the damned war was a MISTAKE. Really dampened my enthusiasm for him.

[BillZBubb]

30. Absolutely. That "I would have voted the same way" line

was an absolute disaster.

[saracat]

34. And you think Dean wouldn't have any baggage? Check again.

[WI_DEM]

74. how did this get to be about Dean?

the poster said Dean, Kucinich, Clark or anybody else who stands up for their principles would be fine with him--yet this is somehow about Dean?

[saracat]

139. Actually they all have baggage! I was just using Dean as an example.

This isn't about Dean. To me anyway! :)

[BillZBubb]

155. I never mentioned Dean.

Every Dem would have baggage of some sort or another. But, could that Dem explain it in a short, effective manner? That is the issue. Kerry, for some reason, was unable to do so. For instance:

"I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it".
"I would still vote the same way on the IWR knowing what we know today".
" ? " to the Swiftscum liars.

These were all campaign killers that should have never been a problem. Kerry made all of them worse.

[Career Prole]

6. Sure. That should save the repukes the hassle

of hacking the vote next time.

[redsoxliberal]

8. so, what, I should have blind faith to Kerry?

I was NOT happy he was the nominee. He was my 2nd to last choice, but he wasn't Bush. Next time we need a better nominee who will actually represent a change.

[gWbush is Mabus]

11. we don't need a better nominee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it was:
a debate-team winner, turned war hero, turned peace activist (at 27), turned U.S. senator, turned leader

versus

a loser, coke-sniffing, whore banging, illegal abortion getting, DWI convicted AWOL deserter, incompetant business failure, that let 9/11 happen on his watch and then lied to start an illegal war with torture and war crimes.


BLAME THE FUCKING MEDIA!

[redsoxliberal]

16. PEACE ACTIVIST???

maybe at 27, but not now!



"umm... yeah, let's invade Iraq!!! WOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KILL 100,000 civilians!!! YES!"


oh, and, the whole war hero thing: That was the slowest response EVER to a smear campaign. He gave the SBVs time to make multiple commericals and get wide circulation before even vaguely responding. What a joke!

[JohnKleeb]

84. I highly doubt that was what he was thinking

c'mon man, there was a reason those guys you mention would have supported a war if we got evidence. I don't even hate Clark for being the CO in Chief of a war I opposed in the Balkans, and yes y'all can flame me for opposing it.

[Career Prole]

And if conditions are the same regarding the issues in 2008

the repukes won't even have to stuff the ballot box to win.
Under 2004's circumstances, JK was the best candidate. The proof of that was in the hacking of the vote.
I'm telling you, we can motivate voters to a certain point, but unlike the fundies we can't threaten them with "eternal damnation" for voting the wrong way.
JK made a damned good showing considering the fire and brimstone crowd turned out against him to save their souls or whatever.
Might have won. How about waiting until the votes are counted?

[JohnKleeb]

7. let's bash republicans

[redsoxliberal]

9. let's bash republicans and shitty democrats.

[JohnKleeb]

10. shitty democrats are democrats who vote with the republicans

more than half of the time. I dont know what happened in Ohio but as much as I think something was up, it different than Florida 2000 by a lot, he was down by 3%, not a fraction of a percent. About the "Kucinich is unelectable", "Dean is too angry", and "Clark is a republican", I must remind you it was Dean who called Clark a republican at one of the debates, and that Dean supporters pushed the Kucinich is unelectable meme when it appeared Dean was the inevitable nominee. Yes, Kerry went after Dean but its not like Dean was so very nice to Kerry either.

[redsoxliberal]

13. no, shitty democrats are people who

vote for genocidal wars, vote to allow a bill that makes this an authoritarian state, and does not fillibuster rightwing, christian fundamentalist movements.

[JohnKleeb]

15. use whole history to judge him, thats all I say

[redsoxliberal]

18. I live in Massachusetts. I know him better than you do.

[JohnKleeb]

19. I'd rather have him than one of my senators any fucking day

Yeah you know him better than I do but there's more good than bad in that guy's record.

[yeats]

21. a not so well trained monkey

a not so well trained monkey should beat bush2. aproval UNDER 50%. a war going baddly, Kerry should have won. I'm from Mass we all know Mr. Kerry is "wickked smaht". But Mr. Kerry didn't go after bush2 after "swift nuts for lies" or tell the rest of the USA in simple terms why the bible thumpers should vote for him.

[emulatorloo]

44. read this survey/study and get back to me

Please follow the link below. . .it is really interesting.

Bush won on terra terra terra, and lying about Kerry and his positions.

Bush voters want to believe the President. Why would he lie?

PS if Kerry won Ohio and or Florida, he would be president. . .I am not yet prepared to say that he didn't win either of those states.

-------------------
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_10_21_04.html

Bush Supporters Still Believe Iraq Had WMD or Major Program,
Supported al Qaeda

[newyawker99]

167. Hi yeats!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. Forsake Dean and Clark?

Per capita, Kerry spent less running a national election than Dean spent losing two states. When push comes to shove, Kerry got 57 million votes to Bush's alleged 60.1 million. He came within about a dozen electoral votes of winning.

Yeah go ahead..bash him all you want..from me you will get the minimum amount of civility and respect it takes me to survive on this board if you expect to cram up my ass how well Dean (who won ONE state in the primaries) or Clark (who won two) would have done.

[saracat]

32. Amen NSMA!

I agree. I may be disappointed and I may be depressed but this is one post I support 100%.

[chiburb]

33. NSMA, how much do you charge to babysit?

I hope it's enough to compensate you for reacting to the rantings of someone between 14 and 17. Just a (friendly) suggestion: save your ammo for someone more deserving THAN A NON-VOTER!

;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. LOL...oh and NSMA doesn't do babysitting

[Paradise]

22. NO!

Well, you asked, and I answered...

[Caution]

23. Kerry got 50 million votes

Anyone who honestly believes that Kerry could somehow have done more to sway Bush supporters away is simply kidding themselves.

Do you honestly think there were Swift boat people waiting for Dean? We know there were peopel claiming Clark is/was a war criminal and if yhou think Kucinich stood a snowball's chance in hell you are smoking something stronger than you should be. Kerry has always stood up for what he believes in, has always worked to help those less fortunate and has fought tooth and nail throughout this whole thing while getting bashed from morons on both sides of the aisle.

If anybody failed here it was us, those of us who never really embraced Kerry whole-heartedly and didnt work hard enough to convince those bush supporters around us why Bush sucked so much. The media certainly wasnt helping Kerry so we needed to do it ourselves.

Seriously take a quick whiff of what you are shoveling because if you think Dean/Clark or <lol> Kucinich could possibly have withstood the shitstorm the GOP leveled on Kerry man do you need to get yourself into rehab.

The fact is that we have to work towards a shift in thinking by those who supported Bush. We need ro educate them as to why Bush's policies suck and are bad for them. This had nothing to do with the candidate we fielded and everything to do with issues like abortion, gun control, gays, fear, education and taxes. Issues that we no longer control the debate over thanks to people like Hannity, Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Scarborough, Miller, Scaife, etc etc

[redsoxliberal]

36. that was not my point at all. All I was saying was that

if we lost, I would have preferred that we lost with someone who
A)Would stand out from Bush
B)Would talk out against the war
C)Would not vote for the patriot act
D)Would have perhaps done SOMETHING re:fraud

I will never, EVER vote for John Kerry. EVER.

[UpsideDownFlag]

53. flame diddily-ame bate. nt

[Caution]

55. good for you. and if he is the next candidate you can look forward to

four more years of republican rule. Because anybody who does any of the things you talk about other than A (which Kerry clearly did)
would for
B: lost by even more. most people while against the war would view a true anti-war candidate as having been anti-troops and that is how the reich-wing and media would have portrayed it and you know it

C: He spoke out about the various pieces he was concerned about at the time and since if anyone had been paying attention. It was felt at the time this was a necessary piece of legislation but due to the concerns of people like Kerry, the sunset provisions were put in place. Well if we had worked harder we could have gotten the votes needed to get this thing fixed.

D: If he had done this he would have been labeled as a total fringe whackjob just like everyone who buys into this idea currently is by 95% of the media and the people you talk to on the streets. If he had jumped up and claimed fraud and loosed his considerable monetary assets on this he would have been eaten alive.

If you want to feel like we fielded the wrong candidate than look in the mirror and realize that you didnt work nearly hard enough for your own choice, because regardless of how you feel about it, the Democratic Party soundly rejected Dean, Kucinich and Clark (and by party i mean the people who make it up, not the bogeyman DLC). Rather than bash the hell out of someone who worked harder than you'll ever know to do the right thing for America maybe you should consider running a campaign yourself.

[emulatorloo]

24. Quite Frankly, Kerry almost won. And if Ohio or Florida went for him

he would be President.

And I am not prepared to say that either Ohio or Florida ****did not really go for him***.

So Bash Away, but I will discount what you say because your basic premises are false.

[a new day]

25. YES

Kerry was ABB, so I'm not buying this "he was a great candidate" line.

He ran as a hawk, and couldn't out hawk the Shrub.

[Kurovski]

26. I'm holding off until Jan. 20 n.t.

[redsoxliberal]

106. I hope the result is overturned, but

A) I don't have to like him, but he won't be Bush
B) It is so unbelievably unlikely that it will happen, so I will pass judgement.

[Kurovski]

152. Thank you for saying you don't have to like him

It's nuts to look for a surrogate papa in your president.

The "likability" crapola in elections has brought us nothing but grief. It's time for America to grow up.

I mean, if a person can't find freinds in everyday life, what makes them think a president will become their pal? It's CRAZY.

[keith the dem]

27. Bash the F***ing right wing media

We had a fine, intelligent candidate who tried to run a decent positive campaign. Kerry didn't lose, we didn't lose, America lost! If the media covered issues instead of gossip, he would have won easily.

[redsoxliberal]

39. no, we did not have a fine candidate

and many of us said that from the start. I never wanted Kerry and was extremely disappointed when it became clear he would win the nomination.

[AuntPatsy]

28. What a waste of valuable time and energy, if you honestly believe

that Kerry did not win this election and that this election was nothing more than a repeat of 2000's election fraud than your not much use anyway in this fight to retain our democracy in this country....

Kerry was not my first choice either but it in no way would have made any difference as to who ran one way or another, the fix was in and it started at least ten years ago and not one of them could have stood a chance as the ball was already in play with no one entirely sure just who's side the players were trully on.....

I am not at all happy with Kerry conceding so early on instead of what I would have perceived as his fighting the fight he promised if he held firm until after the count was done..

I have since realized that he has done exactly what he should have, thrown the enemy a curve ball and in essence, they let their guard down, what a trully remarkable military manuver....

I stand behind him completely and unabashedly have retained my faith that he knows exactly what he is doing and what he is up against, sometimes the rules of warfare determine one's next move...

He was and is the best candidate we could have had in this race, nothing you rant about will change the facts as they stand...

Keep it up with this Kerry bashing and you are only playing into the other sides hands and allowing them an edge by making this party appear weak...you need to decide just how loyal you are to fighting against such heavy odds and if you are indeed up to the task of calling yourself a true patriot of freedom for all mankind..

Otherwise you become part of the problem instead of aiding in a true solution...

[Aloha717200]

31. No, not now, and not ever.

Well I'll tell you what.

On Nov. 3 I made a promise to John Kerry that I still had his back. And will continue to have his back.


I fully and completely support, and intend to lobby for, his re-nomination as the democratic presidential candidate of 2008. I truly believe that he won't let us down in these next 4 years, and come 2008, he will be the front runner for the nomination, should he choose to run again.


He lost this time, okay. But Ronald Reagan twice sought the presidency and finally won. It's not over folks.


Clark was my original candidate of choice. I had a bad feeling about Kerry at first. But when he became the clear nominee, I took a deeper look at him, and liked the man I saw. By election day, I was not just a supporter of John Kerry, I was a fan too. Of the man himself.




Run again, John, you'll have my vote in 2008. I hope he picks Edwards again too. IMO, the Edwardses are now a part of this too, this movement. They should be there again in 08.

So no, I will not bash Kerry now. Absolutely not. He is the strongest voice we have in the democratic party now. Daschle is gone. Edwards will leave the spotlight shortly. We lost quite a few seats and quite a bit of power in our government. Now is not the time to turn on each other or our leaders.


I've got his back.


Won't you join me?

[Gayla]

97. Absolutely!

I like John Kerry as a man and as a candidate.
If you had ears and a brain, you knew where he stood on the
issues.
I hope he is our candidate in 2008.

[LittleClarkie]

160. I have a very similar story

from being a Clark supporter, to not being terribly enthused about Kerry, to taking a better look and falling in love.

Yes, I will join you on your Kerry Back Watch.

[emulatorloo]

38. Thank you -

EOM

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redsoxliberal]

42. I still worked my ass off for him

probably did more work than you did. It was the hardest I had ever worked on anything in my life.

[chiburb]

47. Yeah. Child Labor laws help ensure that...

Btw, what ethnic cleansing did Kerry vote for? You did say genocide, didn't you?

[redsoxliberal]

49. Iraq War. You are aware the 100,000+ civilians have been murdered

so far. There's plenty more time. We will see that rise.

[chiburb]

57. Hey (close your eyes Kleeb) kid!

Look up genocide in that big red book on your Dad's desk and then answer my question.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chiburb]

68. Psst! Kid! While you're up, get me a

vinegar and water.

Thanks!

[redsoxliberal]

70. apparently you don't know what the fuck you're talking about

perhaps you might consider a thoughtful response instead of just posting idiotic shit making fun of my age.

[chiburb]

72. Which is?

[seaglass]

78. Just so you know, I was the one who alerted on you. So don't

go blaming chiburb.

[chiburb]

81. Thanks, but he still hasn't given me my vinegar and water...

:-)

[JohnKleeb]

83. vinegar goes good on french fries in a related story

[redsoxliberal]

86. I don't really care. If I get banned for something

that is not exactly outside of the mainstream at DU, then I'd prefer to not be here in the first place. We have just suffered a devestating loss, and I want to know how to make this party better.

[emulatorloo]

88. Devastating Loss? Um you seem to forget that KERRY ALMOST WON

If he had won either Ohio or Florida, he would be president.

And I am not prepared to say that he really didn;t win either of those states.

Devastating Loss? I seriously dont think so.

Get some historical perspective


http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/11/06/history/index_np.html

SNIP

Democrats lost the battle, not the war
Only people suffering from historical amnesia could believe this election proves that liberalism is dead.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
By Joe Conason


Nov. 6, 2004 |

In the dark post-election mood that lingers, the defeated should find history both restorative and instructive. Restorative because the past reminds us that both victors and vanquished tend to mistake the dimensions of the immediate event, whose true significance cannot be known until years or even decades later. Instructive because the past tells us so much about how the conditions of our present distress came to exist -- and, most important, how we can change them.

So for the moment set aside the triumphal proclamations from the Republican leadership and their echoes in the media, along with the petty recriminations against John Kerry, who has devoted his life to public service and deserves admiration for the honorable campaign he waged against unscrupulous opponents. As a presidential candidate he had his virtues and flaws, which obviously differed from those of George W. Bush -- and will surely differ from those of the next Democratic nominee.

SNIP

ON EDIT fix dumb formatting mistake

[redsoxliberal]

91. devestating in that we are now stuck with bu$h. Again. nt

[emulatorloo]

So pick yourself up and FIGHT BUSH, not DU'ers or John Kerry

who despite your limited knowledge of him, has fought the good fight for a long time now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1003480

[redsoxliberal]

99. you chose to assume that I have limited knowledge of him...

I think he ran a poor campaign and he was a poor candidate. That said, ABB.
When I posted, I had absolutely no intention of fighting any DUers. Just discussing or debating. Personal attacks were not neccessary. Look at the rest of the thread.

[emulatorloo]

101. You know about three votes out of 30+ years of service. . .

follow the link to the DU post I gave you learn more.

[redsoxliberal]

105. of course I know more, but as new issues come

new evidence is more relevent. There were better candidates out there. The Iraq War and the Patriot Act were the most important issues to me, and Kerry went the wrong way with them. He was better than Bush, but I was never a fan.

[emulatorloo]

110. The other candidates had contradictory stances on those issues as well

Clark and Dean especially. . .

While DK had a 'purer' record on those two issues, he had a complicated stance on a woman's right to choose.

No candidate is perfect.

In my own case, I had to decide between Dean and Kerry during primary season. I ultimately went for Kerry, because Dean was too conservative for me.

[a new day]

102. Horseshoes and hand grenades n/t

[seaglass]

It wasn't the initial post, though I think it was divisive and

non-productive, it was the personal attack. I don't think you get banned for one personal attack, it wasn't my intent to get you banned, it was my intent to get the personal attack removed.

[redsoxliberal]

100. well, perhaps you should have checked other times in this thread

I don't really care, but if someone is going to be running up and down looking for me to post an attack, perhaps report the personal attack that incited it?

[JohnKleeb]

50. he meant the war

but you know what
Dean supported the Biden-Lugar amendment which was a war resolution too and Clark said one time he would have voted for the IWR if he were there, those two campaigns at least here at DU interestingly enough had the biggest squables of em all.

[chiburb]

59. John, I THINK I know what he meant, but if he's gonna play

as rough as his OP, then he ought to UNDERSTAND what he's posting. Or will you just come to his aid because some old man is picking on him?

[JohnKleeb]

60. all I want you to is not emphaize the age

and frankly I think he's dead wrong.

[chiburb]

63. I emphasized his age (14? 15?)

To illustrate just WHO was posting this kind of flame-bait crap. No other reason.

Sorry if you got offended...

[JohnKleeb]

64. then I apologize

I thought you were using the point that he can't vote as an issue and check your pms.

[redsoxliberal]

69. I'm 15. I would think most people would be

happier that I am doing something semi-productive as opposed to playing X-Box. What the fuck were you doing when you were 15. I care. I may have a different opinion than you, but it's no less valuable. You are the reason that liberals get labled elitists.

[chiburb]

76. And you're Original Post is semi-productive? How?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emulatorloo]

92. just letting you know that I'm alerting on this nasty insult, not chiburb

n/t

[redsoxliberal]

93. congratulations. It's so great to have you policing!

Perhaps you will read some of chiburbs responses as well?

Or, not. Keep your head in the sand...

[redsoxliberal]

94. congratulations. It's so great to have you policing!

Perhaps you will read some of chiburbs responses as well?

Or, not. Keep your head in the sand...

[emulatorloo]

103. I read them, and he/she, while insulting, doesn't swear at you NT

[redsoxliberal]

108. since when is swearing a problem at DU?

one could certainly argue that his attacks were far more vicious than mine.

[emulatorloo]

114. Swear away, but you aren't allowed to swear at another member the

way you did. If chiburb had called you the name you called him and said FU, I woulda alerted on chiburb. It just ain't right.

[redsoxliberal]

117. I think his anti-youth tirade deserved it

he's pissed off he can't get a perfect nation here at DU?

[emulatorloo]

121. let the mods decide. . . .But here's what my mom always said

If you insult somebody by swearing at them or calling them bad names, you are the one who ends up looking bad.

Always made a lot of sense to me.

Better to let chiburb look bad for attacking your age. . . . . .

Regards. . . .

[JohnKleeb]

43. I couldnt vote either, don't play that

I disagree with what he is saying 110% but his age isn't the point, the point is that to me as a 17 year old who admittingly doesn't know John Kerry as well sa the original poster does being I am from Virginia, I believed in John Kerry, he was never ABB for me, I know some of the people who dont like Kerry may not understand it but the man is one of my heroes, I wanted him to be my first vote, he was better than Dukakis, Clinton, and Gore to me, he was the best nominee of my life.

[chiburb]

52. Kleeb, I think I can distinguish between a 17 year old like you

And the rantings of an ill-informed, petulant child. Btw, I believe you ARE 17. I believe this poster to be in the 14-16 range...

Don't take what I said to the OP personally. I couldn't care less how young someone is unless they act it. You never have, he just did.

[JohnKleeb]

56. just don't emphiaze his age

That ain't the issue. I wish people in blue states would realize how big a fresh air even the most moderate democrat is to us, Mark Warner is no liberal but we were oh so happy that day when he kicked Earley's ass.

[Toucano]

40. Is the ignore feature working again?

Lemme see. ;)

[zulchzulu]

41. Sure, go ahead and bash him and tell us your tales about how Dean woulda..

I love the tall tales about how Dean would have won Iowa if it weren't for those damn voters. Or that Dean would have won if we had just made him the nominee after the primaries were done. Or how about how the evil DLC party hacks made people vote against Dean because he was saying too much...blah......blah.......blah......

Maybe the mystical World can somehow find ways to count invisible votes that are untraceable from many BBV machines. Does Sharper Image sell that kind of stuff? Maybe some head shop on Haight Street has an invisible vote counter...

I should probably buy some stock in tin foil paper companies.

[JohnKleeb]

46. people don't attack the age

attack the point, thats what we're arguing here.

[lancaster liberal]

48. slightly ridiculous

We are almost all Dem's here but almost all of u are talking like republicans. one of you said Ferry "stole" the primaries, excuse me but i believe that people form our party gave Kerry the nomination by... VOTING FOR HIM. Kerry didn't steal the primaries he won them. whether he was the best or not isn't the issue, the larger issue is that all of them sucked. in all honesty if u want to be mad at somebody be made at the democratic party who has put out lack lust candidates for the last 30 yrs, or the up-wards or 4% of Americans who said that the country was headed in the wrong direction and still voted for Bush. You cant rally behind a candidate one day and then bash him the next.

[redsoxliberal]

51. wait... all of them sucked? Did you not FOLLOW the primaries or something?

[lancaster liberal]

67. not the point

compared to the Dem's of 20 30 yrs ago these are trash, but thats not the point the point is u are bashing Kerry and its not his fault he was nominated! the VOTERS nominated him and he went out to try to get the ignorrant masses to vote for him and they didnt when the choice was so clear you cant just fault the canidate. Do i think Kerry was a slight let down? Sure, but look at the america that we are dealing with today, do you honestly belive that Kerry is more to blame than the far out, religious right, neo conservitive facists that voted for bush and not kerry?

[redsoxliberal]

73. not at all, I'm just saying that if we had to lose,

I would have prefered to lose with an Anti-War candidate such as Dean, DK or Clark.

[saracat]

142. They weren't anti war except for DK!

[OneBlueSky]

54. hindsight being 20/20 and all . . . if we were gonna lose anyway . . .

(which we most assuredly were, there being NO WAY that BushCo could allow Kerry to win), then we probably would have been better off losing with true antiwar candidate . . . hindsight being 20/20 and all . . . but I don't fault Kerry for losing the election, seeing as how it was rigged from the get-go . . . I do fault him, however, for caving so quickly and for not standing up for fair and open elections not controlled by Republican corporations . . .

[Chicago Democrat]

65. yeah, maybe we still can prove fraud.. and we're still getting a recount

in Ohio, with luck, before the electoral college meets.


Like basically God on high will show the truth and America will be saved.


Hey, that's a great fairy tale, like from Grimm.

:cry:

[redsoxliberal]

66. See, I agree with you completely...

apparently my ways with words are inferior. :(

[sangh0]

77. one problem

hindsight doesn't work in reverse

[OneBlueSky]

157. your words were fine . . .

I was agreeing with you . . . :)

[sangh0]

71. Everyone has their priorities

and for many "liberals" it's attacking other liberals for not being pure enough

[lancaster liberal]

75. exactly

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

85. welcome to Du

[chiburb]

79. Keep in mind that this thread was started by a 15 year old

Whiner. There's a reason kids shouldn't play with matches.

[JohnKleeb]

80. "when we eat our own, we gradually grow extinct"

[Aloha717200]

87. Breathe

Hmmmm, I don't think this is helping.

I know I'm a newbie to the forum, but not to the campaign. Let's not fight. Save the fight for 2008.

[JohnKleeb]

89. i think we agree actually

[redsoxliberal]

90. who are we fighting for in 2008? Please God, don't let it be John Kerry!

[lancaster liberal]

95. do u honestly call yourself a Democrat

I would hope that whoever is nominated we fight for. most of you are taking the choice of canidates personally. we are democrats lets fight for them, whoever they are. dem's are fighting an uphill battle right now. anyone who doesnt support the democratic canidate, supports the republican one!

[redsoxliberal]

104. Hi George

I never knew it was another "If you're not with us, you're against us" situation.

I will fight for who I deem to be the right candidate. I have liberal values, so I expect that it will likely be the democrat, but it's not exclusively going to be. For example, I will vote for Nader or another 3rd party if Lieberman is the nominee.

[sangh0]

115. Obviously you thought it was a "If you're not with ME, you're against ME"

situation because you reject the choice made by the majority of Dem voters.

I will fight for who I deem to be the right candidate.

It's all about YOU, YOU, YOU, and screw the dems

I have liberal values...

Not all of them. You don't value a coalition.

[redsoxliberal]

120. our decision to nominate Kerry represented

the democratic party staying as a party that is too close to the republicans. We had a chance to reform. Knowing that Kerry lost, I think we nominated the wrong guy.

I don't understand what you're saying, because obviously we both reject Bush, yet the majority of votes cast were for him. I just go with who I believe is the right decision. For all of the elections I have been alive for, it has been the democrat. I suspect it will always be dem or third party. I am not strictly partisan however.

[sangh0]

122. "our" decision????

Why do I get the feeling you had little to do with that decision?

We had a chance to reform

Most Dems disagreed. That's how a democracy works, You obviously, are unhappy about that.

I am not strictly partisan however.

Of course you're not partisan. Being partisam means making a commitment to a group, and that would interfere with your ability to do what you please when you please, instead of contributing to ORGANIZED political activities

[redsoxliberal]

125. if the dems were to nominate Lieberman

and the thugs to nominate McCain, perhaps you would at least think before casting your vote?

[sangh0]

126. Breaking News!!!

The election is over, and it wasn't between Lieberman and McCain!!!


Using a fictional scenario is one of the weakest ways to argue. It's one thing to make up an example for purposes of explanation. But to base your argument on nothing but fiction is not the way to make a strong point.

BTS, it would be Lieberman by light-years. I wouldn't have to pause for even a moment.

[JohnKleeb]

127. you know how I feel about him and I wouldnt

Lieberman at least is pro choice, pro environment, pro gay rights, and votes against their judges, i hate his attiude but theres a big dif between him and McCain.

[sangh0]

135. Yep, McCain is a HARD-CORE CONSERVATIVE

He's a militarist, pro-life, anti-regulatory, pro-voucher, anti-gay with one or two moderate positions, such as CFR.

Lieberman is a HARD-CORE Liberal who supports many liberal issues with a small number of exceptions.

The decision is an easy one

[JohnKleeb]

138. I wouldnt call Joe hardcore liberal but

hell he's not even the most conservative dem in the senate, now I don't like him but facts are facts.

[sangh0]

141. I don't "like" Lieberman either

He's too corporate and too militaristic, and those are two big issues for me. However, there's no denying that on the vast majority of issues, he's on our side.

And then there's the way he betrayed our party by posing with bush* in support of IWR at the very same moment Daschle was negotiating with the repukes. It's one thing for a dem to make a decision I don't like. It's a whole other thing when they do it in a way that supports a repuke and undermines the dem leadership.

So no, I don't like him, but there are plenty of liberal I don't like.

[NoPasaran]

96. I don't think there's any point to bashing Kerry

I had some differences with him which I've pretty much kept to myself. I think there were some serious problems with the way the campaign was run but I'm not sure that it's possible to have a rational discussion about that at this point. But no one should kid themselves that their preferred candidate could walk on water either.

[TheDonkey]

98. Yes you are allowed... that's why there's Free Rethuglic

Go there and knock yourself out.

[redsoxliberal]

109. wait... so my not liking JK makes me a freeper?

I didn't know one of the DU posting requirements was agreeing with EVERYTHING anyone with a (D) next to their name said.

[a new day]

111. Well, you know. If you don't march in lock step...

we might lose an election.

[redsoxliberal]

113. yeah, seriously... sheesh

[TheDonkey]

132. Disagreements with facts and rationality is one thing, bashing

Democratic leaders is unproductive and annoying.

BUT, I'm sure you'll have a great time bashing democrats to your hearts desire in FReepland. If you decide to post intellegent posts with evidence and though rather than this mindless "neener neener" crap then DU will be more accepting.

[redsoxliberal]

134. I have been here for a year, I know how DU works.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

107. Someone else posted this months ago, but it fits here:

We had spaghetti at our house three times last week.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[lessthanjake]

112. Its not kerrys fault

He ran for president and people labeled him as the most electable so we voted for him. Dont fault him. Fault the people that labeled him as electable.

[lancaster liberal]

116. exactly what I have been saying

[emulatorloo]

118. Um, if Kerry had won Ohio and/or Florida, he would be elected President

So yeah, I would say that makes him 'electable'

Especially since I am not prepared to say he didn't win those states.

--------------------------------------------

Now here is a explication of "electable"

(BTW that was an argument I never made)

"Electable" was never argued as a guarentee, only as a possibility.

So when people argued that Kerry was more "electable" than, say, Al Sharpton, they were saying that it was more "possible" for Kerry to get elected than Al Sharpton.

[sampsonblk]

146. Hadn't thought about it that way

I see where you are coming from. Problem is, when his campaign was in freefall, he changed his message from issues (where he was weak) to electability. I give him half the blame, and the early primary voters the other half.

[rniel]

119. goodamn right there!!

n/m

[Snivi Yllom]

123. this cant be said enough

the next time someone says "electable" give them a bitch slap

[Julien Sorel]

159. "Electable."

Want my address?

[merh]

124. Sure you bash whoever you damned well like, turn on the leader

and damn the candidate because the election was stolen. Go ahead and forget that he got more votes than any candidate before him (including the winning democratic candidates of the last few decades).

Forget that what he has done for the party and that people rallied behind him, not just the party.

Go ahead, eat your own. Would you like any vegatables with your main course?

[L84TEA]

137. did you like do anything this election?

Or did you just sit around a bitch? Because personally, I VOTED FOR KERRY AND I WORKED MY ASS OFF FOR YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS COUNTRY... So don't go bashin him!
So it really gets on my last nerve when people think they are gonna go GOP on DU. We aren't going to put people on a pedstal to turn around and beat them down. WE STOOD BEHIND HIM THEN...WE WILL STAND BEHIND HIM UNTIL IT ENDS.

So PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

[liberalpragmatist]

143. Purism gets you nowhere

John Kerry has an incredibly progressive record in the Senate and his campaign was a progressive one as well. I'm not saying he didn't make any mistakes, but his platform called for universal health care, a return to internationalism and multilateralism, civil unions for gays and lesbians, fully funding education, raising the minimum wage, repealing the Patriot Act with a narrower set of rules that helped fight terrorism without infringing on civil liberties, ending tax breaks for companies that move jobs overseas, taking on media consolidation, pot tolerance, a drug war that focused on treatment and prevention not imprisonment, and opposition to the death penalty.

If that's not progressive enough for you, I don't know what is.

I can understand you being upset about his war vote, but Kerry clearly said he would never have gone to war in Iraq once we knew there were no WMDs - the debate with Kerry was over the vote, not whether a President Kerry would actually have gone to war.

As for the PATRIOT Act? Do you realize that EVERY SENATOR except Russ Feingold voted against it in a mood of national paranoia? And Kerry and most other Democrats have since come to their senses and come out against renewal? Do you realize that Dean and Clark were actually more conservative than Kerry? Do you realize that Dean also said he'd have supported a war in Iraq if we got UN support? (WHich was Kerry's position too)? Do you realize NONE of the candidates except Kucinich and Sharpton and Braun - none of whom were viable - were in favor of actual gay marriage? They were for civil unions, and while I'm for gay marriage, this is an incremental process. If we can get civil unions in most states in the next few years, isn't that a huge improvement over what we have now? And wouldn't that set the stage for eventual full gay "marriage" later on?

[mtnsnake]

145. I think Kerry is a good man, but his campaign failed miserably

The only way the worst president in history could possibly win a second term would be if the challenger ran a piss poor campaign, and that's exactly what happened. I blame Kerry for part of it, but I blame his managers, handlers, and advisors the most.

[baltodemvet]

149. Critique? Oui. Bash? No.

I never though he was the second coming and have several serious critiques of his campaign. Still, he was a worthy candidate and while we didn't win we moved forward. Critiques are ok (if you'll pardon the French) but bashing is unhelpful.

[chyjo]

150. Well

I've seen him being bashed non-stop since November third. I guess perhaps it is time for kerry bashers to become more hateful. Ya know many Astros fans are really ragging on the Cardinals right now, cause their team would have beat the Red Sox!

[Nimble_Idea]

151. Who is stopping you?

You had your say before in the primaries. You lost then and you will lose again with your rancid screeching. Being painted as extreme won't ever get you elected........
....
.......oh wait...wtf am I saying....pResident.......ugh

[DuaneBidoux]

153. Of course you're allowed this is a democratic/progressive site

But why the hell waste our energies on our own. Let's fuck over King George.

[Generator]

154. Yet? where you been since November 3rd? LMAO

That morning I believe it was succinctly called "Fuck you John Kerry."

I think there have been a few hundred thousand others in the last 16 days, pay attention!

[nevergiveup]

156. John Kerry was a good man........

and probably would have been a good president but this was an election which centered around 9/11 and I am not sure any Democrat would have done better. I have two sisters both politically moderate....both voted for Gore in 2000, both are pro-choice and both are huge into the environment and they both voted for Bush because they thought he would protect them from terrorists. People are not rational when they are scared. Without the fear factor... Dean, Clark, Edwards or Kerry would all probably have trounced Bush.

[Andromeda]

158. You are young and idealistic....

It's good that you're taking an interest in politics but before you make up your mind that Kerry is not liberal enough I invite you to do some research on his Senate record. John Kerry and Ted Kennedy are probably the most liberal Senators in DC.

As Kerry explained it during the campaign, he voted for the Resolution to go to war if all other actions had failed to reach a satisfactory conclusion and only as a last resort.

George W. Bush would have gone to war regardless of whether he had Congressinal approval or not.

I don't think Kerry should have voted yes either, but he did. There are more things that Kerry has done right than wrong and I don't vote for a candidate on just one issue. :)

[shockra]

161. Holy Crap

I agree with everything "the kid" said, and I'm 40.

Why does it seem like adults are always trying to talk sense *out* of kids? I'm getting flashbacks here.

The irony is that in another election Kerry might have possibly been a worthwhile candidate, but for this one he was all wrong. We needed to distinguish ourselves as much as possible from Bush, and stand our ground. Only doing the last half, without doing the first, ends up meaning nothing.

[rodeodance]

163. I am all for "fresh blood" in old ways of thinking. Good luck to you.

Keep up the questioning---it is what makes you alive.

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

165. Good for you, don't take any of that shit

I didn't like it either. I voted for Kucinich in the primaries. I say go for it - say what needs to be said. I will add that after Kerry was pegged as the dem nom, I knew for sure they'd black box this election no problemo, as for sure was the plan and Kerry wouldn't contest it. (I.E., what has happened.) But most people I mentioned this to pooh-poohed my 'paranoid pessimism' or what have you.

Well LOOKIE LOO what happened, they stole another one, and Kerry rolls over, what a shocker. There, I said it. Part of me really, really hoped against hope that somehow they wouldn't steal it via fraud, or that at least Kerry would fight it and investigate. Damn, people.

I agree, next election I don't want to hear any garbage about 'not so-and-so, they aren't electable' since we have now witnessed the results of going with the 'clearly most electable' dem.

D'OH!