Stop it, Stop it, Stop it - Please!

[merh]

John Kerry is not to blame for the results of this election.
The Democratic Party is not to blame for the results of the election.
John Kerry, the party and all DUers and citizens that voted for John Kerry have nothing to be ashamed of regarding the campaign.
We have no need to reform, move right or "find God". Like all parties and efforts, we may want to refine our message, but all in all we did one hell of a job despite the corporate control of the media, the corporate control of the evil repuke party, the corporate control of the election and the corporate control of the world.

Please stop eating our own, stop blaming the victim of the crime. John Kerry is the man that was running, if the election was stolen, he is the victim, it was stolen from him. Maybe we can’t prove the election was stolen, most of us believe it was, but maybe we will not be able to prove it. We all know that the media did not adequately and fairly give John Kerry the coverage he was entitled to or that was fair in relation to what the weed that would be king was given. John Kerry ran one hell of a campaign, despite the bias, despite the enforced silence (media that ignored him), despite so many hurdles that were put before him.

How many of you are willing to sacrifice over 600 days to campaign for an elected office? How many of you are willing to have your entire life and reputation attacked and ridiculed, are willing to have your family attacked, are willing to face the constant barrage of lies and hate that John Kerry faced? He wasn’t doing it for the money folks, we know that, he has plenty of money. He loves our country and he wanted to do what is right for our country, don’t forget why you voted for him. If you are not certain, then go watch "Going upriver" or read his address to Congress during the Vietnam war, remember the one that was ridiculed and distorted by the ignorant repukes.

A few years ago I was personally involved in a county wide race that involved my employer who was also my friend. For two (2) years prior to the election he was constantly attacked in the media, the conservative powers that are wanted him out and their guy in the office, so they feed lies and misinformation to the press. I campaigned for him and I fought like hell daily to try to get the media to recognize the truth and to see what was behind the negative stories they were fed. The election battle was one of the hardest things I ever went through. It was emotionally draining on the candidate, his family and all of us involved in the campaign. He was defeated and to this day, I refuse to go to a campaign “victory” party, the memories of the loss and how it feels to be at just such a party when the candidate loses is just too much to take.

Now DUers, I ask you to please recall how many threads you read, you responded to, you wrote that involved the biased media slant. How many times did we all scream at the top of our lungs because the weed that would be king got all of the media coverage and John Kerry barely received any? Imagine what the results would have been if the media was fair and unbiased, if he did get the same coverage that was given to the weed. John Kerry did get his message out to 55 plus million (that we know of). Just imagine if the fairness doctrine was still in effect and if the FEC was comprised of a majority of dems and if Powell wasn't over the FCC, just imagine how his message would have been heard and what the results would be.

For all of the hindrances, he was heard and more voters than those that elected St. Raygun voted for my President, John Kerry. In this election, Kerry was like a fighter sent into the ring with both arms tied behind his back and blindfolded, yet he fought like hell and he whooped up on the weed, only problem was, the weed had bought and paid for the ref and the judges.

Think back to how many times the weed was given 1 hour or 20 minutes by the MSM to say the same thing, over and over again and recall how happy we were to see Kerry on the television for over 5 minutes. Why now are you letting the biased media taint your recollections or why are you willing to believe their slants?

Guess what, it is not unusual for a candidate to have money left over in his “campaign fund”. Gore did and he donated it to Kerry and/or the DNC for the 2004 election. Kerry could not spend the campaign funds after the convention (FEC regs remember) and by the time the SBVT emerged after the convention, the campaign was constrained by public financing laws. The rove machine knew how to time their assaults!

The GELAC fund is separate from the campaign fund and it is to be used for legal battles, lawyers and legal expenses associated with the efforts after the election. When I tried to donate to the campaign, one of my checks was returned because it was after the deadline. They returned it to me and asked that I consider donating to the GELAC, the legal fund set up for whatever happened after the election.

Now, for those of you that think Kerry is not doing enough or anything or whatever, I take the liberty of using ohioan’s response to just such a whining post:

“Sigh - please, please learn something about elections laws and processes
before beating up on Kerry for not doing what you think he should be doing.

First - In most states - including Ohio - recounts cannot even be requested until the vote count is certified. The counting has not even been COMPLETED, much less certified, so Kerry CANNOT request a recount right now.

Second - investigations are taking place even as we speak. But investigations are just that - INVESTIGATIONS. They are not (or should not be) public floggings or opportunities for grandstanding - Kerry's lawyers and others are gathering information, taking testimony, studying the facts, and watching the count. Why do people assume that unless Kerry is giving them a blow-by-blow rundown of every move that's taking place, nothing is happening that, therefore, he should be subjected to non-stop tearing down by his own party.

Damn!” (thank you ohioan)

I am proud of the struggles, the efforts and the campaign that was the Kerry/Edwards 2004 campaign. I am proud to say I voted for the Kerry/Edwards ticket and my bumper sticker will remain on my car for as long as the adhesive adheres. John Kerry would have made the best president we have had in many, many years. He is a man of character and heart, he is intelligent, well read, well rounded and dedicated. In my eyes, John Kerry is the President Elect. I will not give up hope until the bitter end. I love the man and I thank him for all he has done for the Democratic party and for my nation.


Thank you Senator Kerry! :hug: :loveya:
In my eyes, you are the President Elect!

[Jack_Dawson]

1. Dude rolled over

way too quickly. Didn't spend his money. Hoarding it for '08.

He's not my hero.

[merh]

4. Did you read the post or are you just responding to what you

limited understanding of what is?


"It is not unusual for a candidate to have money left over in his “campaign fund”. Gore did and he donated it to Kerry and/or the DNC for the 2004 election. Kerry could not spend the campaign funds after the convention (FEC regs remember) and by the time the SBVT emerged after the convention, the campaign was constrained by public financing laws. The rove machine knew how to time their assaults!

The GELAC fund is separate from the campaign fund and it is to be used for legal battles, lawyers and legal expenses associated with the efforts after the election. When I tried to donate to the campaign, one of my checks was returned because it was after the deadline. They returned it to me and asked that I consider donating to the GELAC, the legal fund set up for whatever happened after the election.

Now, for those of you that think Kerry is not doing enough or anything or whatever, I take the liberty of using ohioan’s response to just such a whining post:

“Sigh - please, please learn something about elections laws and processes
before beating up on Kerry for not doing what you think he should be doing.

First - In most states - including Ohio - recounts cannot even be requested until the vote count is certified. The counting has not even been COMPLETED, much less certified, so Kerry CANNOT request a recount right now.

Second - investigations are taking place even as we speak. But investigations are just that - INVESTIGATIONS. They are not (or should not be) public floggings or opportunities for grandstanding - Kerry's lawyers and others are gathering information, taking testimony, studying the facts, and watching the count. Why do people assume that unless Kerry is giving them a blow-by-blow rundown of every move that's taking place, nothing is happening that, therefore, he should be subjected to non-stop tearing down by his own party.

Damn!” (thank you ohioan)

===========================

FOR SO MANY INTELLIGENT FOLKS, the ignorance and closed minded views are really disheartening! Do you believe everything the MSM tells you or just part of it?

[sangh0]

9. Obviously, it was a reactionary response

from someone who didn't read what you wrote.

[Jack_Dawson]

25. Actually I've well versed in Kerry Defender Logic

but I just don't buy it. I don't buy that he's laying low. I don't buy that he's letting everything play out. Do I hope I'm wrong? Hell yes. But I haven't seen a sliver of any kind of hope to cling to. (Preposition ending sentence noted)

Obviously this election was ripped from us. No incumbent has 46% approval ratings and finds 8 million new voters. And our leader? Nowhere. Carville? Slamming an egg on his face. Our party is the laughing stock of the world...and it appears they like it that way.

[merh]

31. Did you watch his interview of the 16th?

Link: http://www.boston.com/news/necn/
Scroll to bottom of page to:
MORE NECN VIDEO STORIES
NECN: John Kerry Speaks Out

Transcript here:
http://www.trenzhost.com/files/sydney/John%20Kerry%20Speaks%20Out3.htm

[Jack_Dawson]

53. Just Watched It

Was there anything inspiring in it that I missed? Yes, I agree let's count the votes. But this election wasn't stolen by miscounting votes, it was stolen (blatantly) by electronic voting. By giving Kerry's votes to Bush, and vice-versa. I blame Kerry for not calling attention to (pre-election)the paperless trail that so obviously was going to rig the voting. Post-election, gimme a break. He was winning the exits 52-47 in Ohio. Then somehow miraculously Ohio goes to the Bush camp? Where's Kerry? Where's anyone?

Do you think the blowhards on AM radio would've just sat silent had the shoe been on the other foot? Likely not. But in our corner - Al Franken. "Oh well...maybe in '08".

The thing is, I'm on your side. I hope to hell you're right. If Kerry picks himself off the mat and shows me he values our country more than his senate career, then I'm back on board. But all I've seen is a defeated, dejected former candidate. I'm waiting to be proven wrong.

[merh]

54. I understand your frustration and you caution.

I did not see a dejected candidate, I saw someone that wanted to say so much more than he said.

Maybe I am just reading too much into it, but I just can't give up hope yet. :shrug:

[zann725]

73. He's 'not closing any doors, not opening any doors yet.'

He's a skilled wind-surfer. Trust his skill at turning the tide!

[Jack_Dawson]

80. I feel a flip-flop joke coming on...

:tinfoilhat:

[newyawker99]

Hi zann725!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[sangh0]

95. "Was there anything inspiring in it that I missed? "

Counting votes is not meant to be entertainment. It's not meant to be inspiring either.

It's meant to insure an accurate count.

Futhermore, you just revealed how your concerns are divorced from reality. You've been complaining that Kerry hasn't been more vocal about the vote counting, and you want him to make statements about this, but in this latest post of yours you note that doing so would be pointless because the important part of the fraud had to do with e-voting, where the fraud takes place when the voters enter their choices, which comes BEFORE the vote counting.

The bottom line is you are calling on Kerry to do something that even YOU admit is a futile effort that won't change what already has happened. Your concern has nothing to do with helping reveal the fraud. It's nothing more than a request for Kerry to entertain you and inspire you.

[Jack_Dawson]

99. I want to see a hint of the outrage that I feel n/t

[sangh0]

101. Why?

What good would that do for anyone other than you? I really doubt Kerry is thinking specifically about making you happy.

[Jack_Dawson]

104. Apparently you're never going to get it

so I give up. Everything is great. Have a nice wknd.

:beer:

[sangh0]

106. It really was a very simple question

I asked who besides you would be helped in any way if Kerry did what you wanted him to do? I don't understand why you think that's a complicated thing to explain. You've posted many times arguing that he should, and it's only natural for someone to ask WHY?

And it shouldn't be so hard for you to explain this seeing as how strongly you feel about this. Why wouldn't you WANT to explain how this would help people? Do you not want to encourage people to agree with you?

[shance]

160. Jack, Im with you. Kerry rolled over, and as much as I may like him

He caved.


Now why he caved so easily is what Democrats deserve to know.

Now hes talking about child healthcare. A noble cause, however, its like working on the baby's room when the house is on fire.

[ever_green]

135. Me too. Moi aussi Kerry.

[sangh0]

32. Obviously so "well-versed" you didn't need to read the OP

because if you had, you might have posted what you think Kerry should be doing. The OP points out that under Ohio law, Kerry can't ask for a recount BEFORE the votes have been counted for the first time.

Obviously this election was ripped from us.

And if you have the PROOF that is required to change the result, then why the heck aren't YOU doing something?

Until there is PROOF, there is nothing that can be done.

And they're STILL counting the votes.

And our leader? Nowhere.

And this shows that your position is so unrealistic you have to resort to hyperbole. Of course Kerry is "somewhere". He is actually in the Senate. You know, doing his job.

And the people who are being paid/financed by Kerry vote count fund are doing their jobs.

So exactly what is it that you think Kerry should be doing? Giving angry speeches about how the election was stolen followed by requests for supporting evidence he does not yet have?

Carville? Slamming an egg on his face

THAT is what you think is a significant political event?

Our party is the laughing stock of the world

If it is, it's because some people think that what Carville did is worthy of comment.

[ohioan]

42. Nice

[chiburb]

103. I LOVE it when you channel Iverglas!!!

Nice post!

[pbartch]

113. GOOD POST. Folks should INVESTIGATE before they start blathering

especially when their "blather" in not correct.

[Eloriel]

2. Thank you

Altho I don't agree with you about Kerry being such a wonderful guy or candidate, he did NOT lose this election. Democrats have NOTHING that they need to change in their ideology or secular approach to politics.

If anyone doubts it, I challenge you to read ALL this material and then come back and say, "Oh yes he DID lose this election" --

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

ALSO SEE: VOTE FRAUD? What can we do? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2701028#

********SEND THIS TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW AND MEDIA TOO *********
Best Fraud Summary I've seen!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x57214
Link: http://www.bopnews.com

NEW Berkeley Study: http://ucdata.berkeley.edu (scroll down)
and: http://ucdata.berkeley.edu/new_web/VOTE2004/index.html

[merh]

5. Thank you for adding the links!

Damn it they stole the election and all folks want to do here is damn the man who was our candidate.

Damn the BFEE,
Damn the Media,
Damn the corporations that control it all

Not everyone has to like Kerry, but give him credit for doing what no one here at DU has done, run for f*cking president and campaign for over 600 days and get over 55 million votes without the cooperation of the media, the FEC or the FCC!

[Q]

18. Mighty fine posts on your part...

...and you're right...not everyone 'likes' Kerry and many more didn't want him to run because they thought he would be a poor choice to run against the 'wartime president'.

- And I agree that we don't need to change a thing...except to refine a message that can get through the corporate media filters.

- But a very big part of his and Edward's campaign was the promise to make every vote count. Certainly you can understand why people would be disappointed when he gave up without any sign of a fight while reports of fraud were flying around?

[merh]

26. I appreciate the kind words regarding my writing and yes, I do

understand the frustration of many. What I cannot understand is why they really believe he gave up so quickly. He is a fighter and it was his sacrifices that got him on the ballot on November 2. That isn't something you just walk away from unless you have been convinenced that there is no way you can make a difference. That was November 2, he has not called it quits, did you see his interview of 11/16/04? If not, let me know, I will gladly post a link.

Relative to giving up on Nov 2, read jzodda post at # 20 below. I think it may explain some things.

thank you again! :hi:

[goclark]

28. Great post!

Kerry is not the enemy, this is no time to bash him.

If we want to bash, try BushCo.

[Q]

30. Well...he 'gave up' the next morning...

...perhaps that's what led them to believe that he gave up quickly?

- We have to remember that there is a history here...a past where proven fraud and an illegal supreme court decision put an unqualifed goofus in our White house in 2000.

- Democrats didn't fight the fraud in 2000...which made promises to watch out for fraud in 2004 a very important aspect of the campaign.

- It is wishful thinking on anyone's part who still believes that Kerry or anyone else plans on fighting the blatant fraud and making sure it doesn't happen again. Americans have come to accept that millions of votes are thrown away in every election.

- And I believe it's safe to say that he didn't run a very smart campaign in the sense that he used very little of the ammunition that he had against Bush*. But I blame the DLC advisors more than anyone. They still believe that a non-confrontational approach to Bush* politics is the best way to win against him. They learned nothing it seems from Bush's* dirty tricks campaign of 2000.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eloriel]

36. I sure as hell understand --

and as a result I'm COMPLETELY done with him. In fact, I may be completely done with the Dem Party. They've made themselves irrelevant, AFAIC.

I'm firmly convinced that whatever needs to be done to save this country and this democracy will have to be done BY THE PEOPLE -- and MAYBE, if we're really, really lucky, our "Leaders" will wake up and decide to follow.

So, let's get busy, people. There's a fine nation with beautiful ideals in need of some serious citizen action (aka: saving), and a democracy at great risk due to the voting machines and rampant, unmitigated vote suppression.

[merh]

41. I'm willing to fight for the nation and our democracy

but not yet willing to give up on John Kerry.

Another DUer gave me an idea for some research I will pursue relative the the fraud. It may be nothing more than a wild goose chase, but if it pans out, it will only add to the other circumstantial cases of voter fraud/irregularity/theft.

[ohioan]

44. This attitude will do us in . . .

We cannot be so smug as to assume that the only reason Kerry won't be president is that the election was stolen. That assumes that we did everything right in the campaign and that we need not try to improve our message and outreach.

As much as some people want to think that there's NO possible way that a majority of Americans would pick Bush over Kerry, it happened. Yes, the Bush campaign engaged in all kinds of dirty tricks, particularly regarding minority voter suppression. But that's not the only thing they did. They perfected their message and outreach and made it work. They also kicked our butts on the ground, doing a hell of a get-out-the-vote effort, something we just weren't ready for but should have been.

I think it is crazy to sit back and assume that we have no room for improvement on communicating our message. If we maintain this attitude, the Republicans won't have to cheat at all next time - they'll destroy us fair and square.

[m berst]

61. I have watched Democratic campaigns for 40 years

This one was a winner if ever there was one.

If we didn't do everything right this time, we never will. By "we" I mean the party rank and file. The only place we can possibly look to change is the leadership and the type of candidates we pick. Nothing against John Kerry in any way except as a bad choice as our candidate. We had a slam dunk chance this year with the worst incumbent ever to run against. The party faithful got out like never before.

Yet the party leadership chose a New Englander; a wealthy patrician New Englander, at that; with a Senate record to attack; with an anti-Viet Nam War background; and ran him on a complex and vague set of issues geared to some phantom swing voters. Yet, we still won and it was stolen from us. From US. Not from Kerry and not from the DNC. Those were our votes and we would have given them to any Democratic candidate.

"They also kicked our butts on the ground, doing a hell of a get-out-the-vote effort, something we just weren't ready for but should have been."

No way. No way. They kicked our butts on counting the votes, not on getting the vote out. You have got to be kidding if you really believe their propaganda that they got their vote out. There is no evidence of this whatsoever, beyond the highly questionable vote totals, and the RNC's word on it.

"We cannot be so smug as to assume that the only reason Kerry won't be president is that the election was stolen."

Smug? Who is "smug" about the destruction of democracy through widespread election tampering?

We cannot be so short sighted as to think that a stolen election means that it is time to worry about the Democratic party. I would trade saving democracy over a Kerry win any day.

The people are the ones taking the beating in all of this. Why worry about John Kerry? Worry about the ones who are really the victims here - the American people.


on edit - added italics to the snips from the previous post

[ohioan]

63. I just don't agree

They kicked our butts on counting the votes, not on getting the vote out. You have got to be kidding if you really believe their propaganda that they got their vote out. There is no evidence of this whatsoever, beyond the highly questionable vote totals, and the RNC's word on it.

You may have watched campaigns for 40 years, but have you actually worked in them at any significant level? If so, you would know that this election was not driven by voter fraud (although there are clearly instances of it) but by the Bush/Rove incredibly successful use of wedge issues, fear, mischaracterization combined with their top-notch Get Out the Vote effort.

There is PLENTY of evidence of this. I saw it myself, on the ground in Ohio where I helped coordinate GOTV and voter protection - and other people who worked GOTV across the country saw the same thing. This is backed up by Democratic canvassing reports, poll watchers and precinct witnesses who carefully matched up the number of people they witnessed actually voting in heavily Republican precincts with the numbers of votes reported in those precincts. And we saw all of this before a single vote was counted.

Bush has been organizing his GOTV effort for more than 3 years and it showed. He got his base out in huge numbers, tapped into part of our base with wedge issues, particularly gay marriage, which resonated with some of our base voters. Plus, his Faith Based Initiative, which has been throwing money around for three years, helped peel off more of our base (particularly African American ministers). A lot of the problem should be attributed to the DNC, which should have been keeping tabs on the shifting demographics, but completely fell asleep at the switch.

I'll give you an example of how effective the Bush approach was. The Sunday before the election, Bush went to Cincinnati for a rally in the football stadium. The Democrats in town read that as a sure sign that Bush was in trouble - why else would he come into what should have been his own backyard (the county always votes Republican) just days before the election. "He's SCARED!" everyone crowed. And then the Democrats laughed at Bush because, even though the stadium holds about 40,000 people, he only had 25,000 people at his event. "Ha Ha," the Dems laughed. He can't even fill the stadium in this Republican bastion.

After the rally, those 25,000 people were so ginned up, it was scary. They tied up traffic all over downtown, beeping their horns, pumping their fists, doing rebel yells, taunting everyone who even LOOKED like they might be for Kerry. And the Democrats kept laughing - "look at these idiots! Hope they enjoyed the rally - it will be the last time THEY see Bush as president. Ha Ha!"

But guess what, on election day, Bush carried that county by . . . 24,000 votes. Just about the number of people he had in that stadium. As one campaign official said, "We were laughing because Bush only drew 25,000 to his rally. But guess what? That's all he needed."

Bush wasn't trying to a slam dunk. He just knew he had to get enough of his people to the polls to offset OUR increased numbers. And he did it. It wasn't magic or trickery or fraud. It was a damned good GOTV effort that did it.


You can close your eyes to this if you want and assume that the only reason he will likely be sworn in next January is that he stole it, but that's just not the reality.

Another reality is that, while we think our policies and message rock, we did not connect with voters the way we should. Our policies are far superior to Republicans', but we've got to do a better job in crafting our message - and it can't be "Are you CRAZY? No thinking person would vote the way you're thinking of voting. Don't be stupid. Vote for us. We're better."

We have a lot to do as a party in the next two years. But we won't accomplish a damned thing if we close our eyes and ears to the lessons we should have learned two weeks ago and pretend that everything is hunky dory and, if only we can make the election cheat proof, we'll win. Yes, we should track down, punish and then curtail the fraud. But if we do only that and don't change our approach, we'll get our butts kicked again and again - fair and square.

[m berst]

64. yes have worked on the ground many times

Thanks Ohioan for your detailed response. I am very interested in what you have to say, because if you are correct than we have had a bigger shift in public sentiment that we have had in a long time - bigger than Reagan, and perhaps along the lines of the FDR revolution. Historically there just aren't enought conservative and fundamentalist votes out there for the getting when compared the the African Amercian vote, and none of the polls and none of the exit polls hint at the kind of sweeping revolution you are suggesting.

I would like to talk to you some more about this, though, if you are up to it. If you are correct, then it seriously changes things and it means that we have broad public support for fascism in this country similar to the mandate the Germans gave the NDSAP in the 30's. That really changes everything. That makes working for the next election seem pretty naive and dangerous.

You do realize that what you are saying is precisely the way the RNC is explaining the results?

[ohioan]

68. I don't think you read what I wrote

Read it again. I said nothing about a "sweeping revolution." I said that we did not effectively communicate our message. That's a big difference. We don't need to drastically change our policies. We need to do a better job helping people understand why our way of doing things will work better for them in their own lives, rather than trying to berate them into voting for us because only stupid people would vote for Bush.

For example, instead of taking on the moral values issue head on, we ducked it. We poo-poohed the issue as if it was something that only idiots or bigots would care about. In hindsight, however, I think we should have spent more time defining the issues in OUR terms, communicating to people that moral values was not limited to gay marriage, but included how we treat the least of our brethren, whether we invade countries unprovoked, ensuring equal opportunity for all Americans. Edwards talked about this a lot - his Two Americas and poverty messages were exactly that - but this was pretty much relegated to the sidelines. Kerry started talking about it later in the campaign, but did not do it consistently and across the board to all audiences.

The result, in my view is, not that there's been a huge lurch to the right (although the right-wing wants everyone to think that to bolster the perception of the power of the evangelical) but lots of people when faced with a choice between someone with strong views about a narrow set of moral values and one who doesn't seem interested in moral values, they picked the guy with the strong views on morality. This is a message/communications problem, not a substantive policy problem.

This is not evidence of a broad support for fascism, but a reminder that it's not enough to yell at people that they're about to vote for a fascist - unless we show them why our policies will work better for them in their lives, we're not going to be successful with these folks.

As for whether the fundies offset the black vote - it's not necessary to completely offset the black vote. Bush cherry-picked and got his votes where he found them. He didn't need to get more fundamentalist votes than black votes since he had plenty of Bush voters outside the evangelical realm. He just needed to peel off some black support away from Kerry - which he did very successfully by using gay marriage and neutralizing many black ministers with the money he's been spreading around under the guise of his Faith Based Initiative.

It's all very complicated, of course. But that's why it's not sufficient or even helpful for us to just dismiss the results of this election as one big exercise in voting fraud.

Even if the RNC were explaining the results the same way I did 0 and they're not - this would not be indicative of anything. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. :-)

[m berst]

69. have read carefully

"I said nothing about a 'sweeping revolution.' "

That is correct. I didn't say that you did. That is my analysis of the evidence you provided.

"I said that we did not effectively communicate our message. That's a big difference."

OK. I am not sure what our policies were, so no wonder that people who are less active didn't get the message.

"We don't need to drastically change our policies. We need to do a better job helping people understand why our way of doing things will work better for them in their own lives, rather than trying to berate them into voting for us because only stupid people would vote for Bush."

I agree and have long argued against bashing the Bush voters, as much or more than anyone else here. So, yes, we agree on that.

"For example, instead of taking on the moral values issue head on, we ducked it."

Excellent, yes, I agree with that well-written paragraph.

"As for whether the fundies offset the black vote - it's not necessary to completely offset the black vote. It's all very complicated, of course. But that's why it's not sufficient or even helpful for us to just dismiss the results of this election as one big exercise in voting fraud."

OK, that is just one example. What I am saying is that if your analysis is accurate, then all of the indicators we have relied on for the last 40 years, and all of the accumulated political wisdom, was way, way off this time. If that is the case, then there has been a shift - a BIG shift, which I called a "revolution" and I stand by that.

Since the policies and programs of this adminstration are fascistic (and I am well read and a student of history and cautious in the language I use, so I am not just throwing that word around for effect) and since you are saying that there is a groundswell of new support for that, I am alarmed.

I am sincerely interested, so please don't take what I am saying as argumentative, and you may want to consider that an old gray beard has something of value to offer in the way of perspective. :-)

[merh]

87. Because the election was stolen from the candidate, he is

the victim. We are the victims as well because it was stolen from the candidate and the election process and democracy is such a fraud. You fail to include in your analysis of the failings of the campaign and the candidate that WE ARE IN WAR and this nutty fellow named Usama allegedly made a tape that was interpretted by many as being for Kerry and against the weed. Now, when the most evil terrorist in the world endorses our candidate, it is hard to get beyond that.

So take your 40 years of experience and add to it those two factors. At the same time, add the effect of a media that refused to cover our candidate.

[Slit Skirt]

98. our message...?

we couldn't get our frickin message out....not without the media putting a negative spin on it.....and they are STILL doing it....did you see the interview with Clinton and Jennings...bingo....

did you see Pat Buchanan yesterday attack the NYT for being liberal...thank god the guest on his show pointed out that it was Keith O. at msnbc who is reporting the vote fraud...not NYT

and yes the election was stolen BIG TIME

AND YES KERRY GAVE UP WAY, WAY, TOO EARLY

AND YES....IF KERRY WANTED TO AFFECT THE POLLS "WHO DO YOU FEEL SAFER IN OFFICE" question..all he had to say was.....9/11 happened on Bush's watch....


BUT HE NEVER DID
and neither did the media ....and when bush was found with a wire on his back...conspiracy theory...and when it was proven that it was a wire.....NOTHING.

QUIT LOOKING FOR A HERO TO SAVE US....cause I believe it's just us folks.

[merh]

117. How ironic, you point out in one line that the media did not get

out Kerry's message and is still tainting and twisting the truth, yet in the other line, you slam Kerry because he did not say 9/11 happened on the weed's watch. That was said, by many, by Kerry and others. Maybe not in those terms, but that message was out there (F911 comes to mind).

The positives of the campaign should not be dismissed and blaming the candidate is just as silly as "hoping that a hero" can save us. imho

Yes, the fight is in our hands. We can continue to focusing on the issues and at the same time take and give the credit that is due. In fighting, back biting and placing blame are not necessary and are a waste of energy.

[Slit Skirt]

119. there was a lot of things that Kerry did not reply to....

....and 9/11 was one of those things...I am talking Kerry not anyone else....the security issue was the biggest one out there and he didn't touch it....and even if he did the media would have twisted it anyways...

...yes I am mad at Kerry...but what I am really mad at is the state of the union...this was not an election...this was fraud or a planned election....

take your pick...I lean towards planned election....I find it very hard to believe that all of this coming together is just a coincidence


that's all...that's my point..

[merh]

121. Your view concerning a "planned election" is similiar to those

who believe that gays and lesbians chose to be "the way they are". No one would put themselves through the rigors that John Kerry dealt with daily nor would they put their families through the turmoil and pain if they "planned to lose". If you think it was planned, I suggest that you go down and qualify to be a candidate for some local office and you campaign for a post. You will see that it is not as easy as you appear to believe.

Be angry at the media, be angry at the political systems in our nation, be angry at the voting systems, don't lose focus of the true problems.

[ohioan]

123. I am SO glad you're here!

[merh]

141. Thanks, the feelings mutual!

:hi:

[Slit Skirt]

129. your analogy to gays and lesbians is ridiculous....

all I am saying is this....

there is a possibility....a real possibility that this was all preplanned...and how would you know what one would do for money and power....whether it is realized now or later..
you know, skull and bones is not some fratboy party....

I do believe it was stolen...I also think that Kerry not pointing out all of Bush's failures is either campaign incompetence....or a great game... you see, I too think that Kerry is a very smart and competent candidate....he is also a skilled politician.

so why all the mistakes?

what you are saying is that it would not make any SENSE
to put your family, friends, etc, etc.through a rigourous campaign....but I say....what in the hell makes sense anymore...do you really think the bush administration is the only thing sinister in DC

...easy to campaign for office....?
don't be ridiculous..I did not even suggest it was easy...

I say there is a whole lot more going on here...but, I actually hope you are right....cause if I am right, we are screwed....bigtime...not just us either...our country as well

[merh]

151. The analogy is simple - I have had discussions with a lot of

anti-gay types that believe gays chose their lifestyle and sexuality. My response to this ridiculous contention is that who in their right mind would chose to be tormented, ridiculed and hated, ostrechized and outcast.

Kerry would not chose to put himself and his family through what they went through if he was simpy planning to lose. I suggest you run for office, local office will suffice, then you will see that running as a political candidate is not a simple task and is not all fun and games.

[Slit Skirt]

153. FIRSTLY

I am not anti-gay and I am tired of that reference you so loosely apply to me. you do not know me...and the analogy is utterly stupid..I am basing what I am saying on Kerry's very questionable actions....
....and as for being tormented, ridiculed and hated....who would that be Kerry....? He just may have paved his way for 2008...he's a politician...that's what they do for a living for christ's sake....

secondly,
I am just pointing out that Kerry did some very odd things during the campaign...starting with 9/11. Even Bob Kerry now states that Bush could have prevented 9/11, but Bob Kerry was sworn to secrecy until after election. Was Kerry? I think not and if he wanted to affect the one pole which had him down in double digits, he could have strategized to expose pre 9/11 failures. For crying out loud, even Bob Graham came out with a book accusing this administration with a cover up. Kerry never talked about pre 9/11 failures. I find that VERY ODD. That was just one of the many things that Kerry didn't do in his run for office

thirdly,
conceding the race while people were still in line voting. Unforgivable.

fourthly,
promising to fight...and then not fighting.

and last of all,
not taking care of this voter fraud prior to the election.

here we all sit, fighting the fraud from our livingrooms...with very little help from the media, DNC, or Kerry....

I do not have to run for office to smell that something is not right here..and there are many people who are feeling the same way that I am. I am sorry...I do not see this through idealistic eyes as you do....I am very disappointed at this whole process and afraid that we may have been duped.

skull and bones, and the bilderberg group come to my mind about right now.:tinfoilhat:

AGREE TO DISAGREE ok? I am leaving the thread

[merh]

155. I never alleged you were anti-gay, you have a problem with

reading things into my posts that were not there. Why :shrug: I have no idea, I guess that is for you to come to terms with.

Everything else in your reply has been addressed over and over again. Kerry did make the point that the weed was in charge on 9/11 and it was ignored by the media as is obvious since you continue to insist he didn't. Let me point out that it was a no win situation to harp on it since after 9/11 Kerry gave the media a statement that he and others sat in an office at congress watching the coverage of the towers and the pentagon and for 45 minutes they didn't know what to say or do. The media used this comment to explain away the weeds "my pet goat" behavior, "it was only 9 minutes that the weed sat there, whereas Kerry said he couldn't do anything for 45 minutes." They failed to mention that the weed, as clown-n-chief, had control of the nation and all of the information resources at his fingertips if he only reacted, whereas Kerry did not have that available to him. They limited it to 9 minutes to the weed, whereas we know it was more like 1 hour that the weed continued his photo op and did nothing.

As to his quitting and not fighting, how do you know he is doing nothing? Yes, he conceded, but that is not binding, has no lawful effect, so why does that bother you? As recently as yesterday, he wrote:

"Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted -- we will continue to challenge this administration. This is not a time for Democrats to retreat and accommodate extremists on critical principles -- it is a time to stand firm.

I will fight for a national standard for federal elections that has both transparency and accountability in our voting system. It's unacceptable in the United States that people still don't have full confidence in the integrity of the voting process.

I ask you to join me in this cause."

I am trying to get folks to reasonably assess the situation, to stop playing into the BFEE's games of doubt and blame, to set aside their emotions and logically look at the situation. That you want to continue to allow emotion to control you is your choice, however unreasonable it may be, no matter what a waste of time it is.

:nopity:

[Slit Skirt]

158. just because it was addressed....

doesn't make it true, accurate...nor do I have to agree with it.

he did not make it an issue...that needed to be hammered home..didn't happen.

I HAVE reasonably assessed the situation...and I feel like we were duped...it isn't MY head that's in in the clouds...

what your analogy IMPLIES is that if I think Kerry was a set up I must also think along the same lines like the people who think (anti-gay types...your words not mine) that gays chose their sexual orientation......HEY IT WAS YOUR ANALOGY NOT MINE...

EMOTION?...you're the one who put hearts at the end of your original post....

I am sorry man...I don't want to argue with you...your letter is heart felt and your intentions are good...I just don't agree

ok....that's all..we all live on DU together..I am sure we can find something else to agree upon

I really don't want to participate in this conversation anymore...it's pointless
peace

[Maat]

3. Very eloquent.

I'm proud to say I haven't attacked Senator Kerry, and was one of the ones who begged DUers not to attack each other or second-guess the campaign.

I, however, am not totally without bias. I think that progressives should stick by their values and band together.

[evilqueen]

10. ditto

I haven't stabbed him in the back and I won't. In my opinion, Kerry was the best candidate this party has put before the American people since JFK (and I don't mean that in a disparaging way towards other Dem presidents or candidates, I just think Kerry was the cream of the crop). If he runs again, I will vote for him again.

I do, however, see problems within the Party and its leadership that I think need looking after... and quickly.

[merh]

35. I agree with you, he is the cream of the crop!

The problem I see with the party is that it is to quick to blame the candidate and fails to recognize what the campaign did for the party.
Messages definitely have to be refined, but platforms do not have to be reformed.

thank you! :hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

55. then we might as well disband the party now

If we can't win with the cream of the crop...then we can't win at all.

[merh]

57. Okay, here we go again

We didn't win because the media shut us out, the party was wimpy in its response to some attacks (others perspective), the BFEE stole the election, et cetera.

Do you read the main thread, or do you just skim along to find some place to make a negative remark?

[sangh0]

6. Great post!

Why now are you letting the biased media taint your recollections or why are you willing to believe their slants?

Everyone here should be asking themselves this question. The media says tghat Clinton told Kerry to support a gay marriage ban, and everybody believes, no questions asked. The media reports that Lieberman might join bush*'s cabinet, and everybody believes, no questions asked.

[merh]

37. Thanks sangh0 for your input and support!

:toast:

[Lizzie Borden]

7. Thank-you.

You can flame me for this if you want to but it bothers me that so many of us are ready to believe the worst about Kery and are ready to throw him to the wolves so to speak. Whatever happened to loyalty? If he's won the election (and it's clear it was stolen) you people would be singing hosannas to him.

[jjmalonejr]

8. I agree with you 100%

I'm so sick and tired of the griping, finger pointing and Monday morning quarterbacking.

Of course Kerry didn't run a perfect campaign, but if he'd won he'd be considered the hero and praised for his hard-fought victory and Republicans would all be griping about what the Bush campaign did wrong and how ineffective and overhyped Karl Rove was.

[Generator]

11. Great post

Alone worth reading for the line "the weed that would be king"!

I nominated it. Everyone is tearing everyone up here. And all I can say is I understand. I understand the anger and the pain. SO for the most part it doesn't bother me, however, Democrats don't need to change their entire approach to the world based on 136,000 votes in Ohio. I will personally have to hunt down and tar and feather the next person who ever says the word mandate. The world and most of this country that thinks and can see past the amazing propaganda of our media find "the weed who would be king" barely fit to be a weed.

We are not the enemy. I think you know who the enemy is.
As someone used to always say:

"Let's go get those Bush Bastards."

[merh]

22. Thank you! You shouldn't have ...

I am blushing, my first nomination.

I simply wrote this because I am so tired of those who would rather slam our candidate and scream for a change of our basic principles. I don't want to move right, I don't want to be a moderate or a centralist - there is no need - we won and if we didn't win, we did one hell of a job. The cup is half full to me!

[Larkspur]

12. I divorced my car of my Kerry bumper stickers right after the election

ended.

Let's see, "Dated Dean, forced into an arranged marriage with Kerry," and finally "Divorced Kerry!"

Putting my Dean and anti-Iraq war ones back on.

[sangh0]

14. It must have been traumatic

I remember what a big supporter you were


not

[cubsfan forever]

16. Yes indeed, another "fair weather patriot"

Kerry Won. The election was stolen. Dr. Dean, as much as I admire him, would probably have lost 49 states, much like Senator McGovern for whom I worked as a pollworker/canvasser did in 1972. Met my wife, as a result, though...

Professor 2

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Please stop helping us. Divorce us all

[chiburb]

110. "Putting my Dean and anti-Iraq war ones back on"

Now THAT'LL show 'em! Hey! Now that you're back on the street (so to speak), would you like to be fixed up with Jack Dawson?

[Zorra]

13. Yeah, I've been thinking similar thoughts. Thanks. n/t

[PATRICK]

15. Agree without much enthusiasm

I didn't expect or hope to be standing around another Calvary with the hours closing fast. I still hope that is the case. If the world and all the innocent children now being blown up at the sadists' pleasure also have some hope in this cold time they will not be around to be gratified by a surprising result.

I keep seeing the bodies falling and the approaching dark and hear the chortles of the wicked.

[merh]

19. I do too, that is why I cannot give up hope!

I cannot give up hope, not until the final minute. The fear I have if the weed is allowed to continue his destruction for 4 more years is constricting. :scared: The destruction and murders at our hands is almost unimaginable, but scarier still, is imaginable! :cry:

[Mist]

17. Thank you Merh

for putting it so succinctly and passionately. Our candidate indeed didn't lose, we all know this election was engineered. And I've experienced months of frustration and disbelief at the blatant favoring of shrub by the corporate/state media. Your post makes me realize that I _am_ proud I worked on GOTV for Kerry/Edwards. There is honor in all our efforts for our candidate.

[merh]

24. Thank you for your kind works, but more importantly,

thank you for your hard work in the GOTV efforts! :toast:
We won -- they stole it -- we should be proud of ourselves and they should be ashamed, but of course, having a soul is reguired to feel shame, isn't it? :hi:

[Tellurian]

127. kick~

[jzodda]

20. I do not blame Kerry

I signed on to work for the campaign in Feb full time. Before that I had worked part time for him. I have met him many times and I like him very much.

1. John Kerry received more votes in his loss then any candidate in history. Had he gotten that many votes in 2000, 1996, 1992, 1988 and so on he would have been the Pres.

2. We gave up because of the numbers. I am privy to some information that you all do not have and that I wont disclose but we stayed up all night trying to figure out if Ohio could be reversed but the evidence of fraud was just not overwhelming enough at the time and the numbers seperating the two candidates was just too much to think we could make it up with the provisional ballots. Hundreds of people were involved in this at all levels of the campaign and we had people all over Ohio. Even though 90% of those ballots did count in 2000 a new law had passed since then and we were estimating that 75-80% would count this time around. We also did NOT trust Blackburn and figured he would play games with us and he tried to.


Kerry never was planning on keeping that money. The campaign was always going to give it back to the party so they could use it for 2006.

I tell you what and I am going to break my silence on one thing. Many of us belive the swiftboat scums did big damamge to John in that they presented a seed of doubt in the minds of people about his integrity. It was all lies and I have spoken with some of the guys who served with Kerry, as they were a constant presence in the campaign. To a man they are all inflamed and angered over this. Johns ex wife was THIS close to getting involved in the debate. I believe now that we waited too long and didnt go after these creeps fast enough. By waiting the week or so that we did we let them get alot of free airtime. O'Neil has been going after John for 3 decades and has been there attacking in every Senate race for 2 decades running his big lying mouth.

ahhhh anyway I do not blame John in anyway, shape or form. Hes a great man, and it was an honor to work for him. I will gladly do it all over again if given the chance.

[merh]

23. Do you have any hopes with the efforts now regarding the

fraud and the screwed up votes and irregularites?

Oh, I am sorry, that is rude of me. Welcome to DU and thank you for your post. :hi: I appreciate the insights you shared and I appreciate the efforts you put forth in the campaign. If you still work for the senator or if you go back to work for him and you see him, please be sure you hug him and thank him for me!

:toast: I toast you for your efforts, your hard work and for sharing your insights here! Welcome :hi:

Now, do you have any hopes? :silly:

[jzodda]

27. Thanks for the welcome!

Having found this place a few weeks ago I am loving this place more and more. Finally a place to share thoughts with like minded people. It feels good.

Well most of us have gone back to our "day jobs" and I am one of those so I really do not know whats going on right now with the Ohio stuff. I do know that there are some people still involved in looking into things but I dont think its a large number of people and I do not know of anybody personally. I think most stuff in Ohio now is being handled by the Ohio Dem party if at all.

I am sure I will meet the Senator again and he hugged all of us which only made us cry even more. (my eyes are tearing as I write this) If and when I see him again I would gladly give him a hug for you!

As for what I think about the fraud. My heart wants there to be some miracle but my head keeps telling me its not going to happen. I think that if there was fraud there would be people trying like crazy to cover their tracks and the longer it goes on from election night the harder its going to become.

anyway thanks for the nice welcome again! I love this place

[merh]

29. Please be sure to check out the links that

Eloriel posted at #2 above. There has been a lot of research on the irregularities and it was not just in Ohio. Bev Harris discovered the some documents in Florida that election folks intended to shred and that reflect discrepancies in what was reported and what occurred.

I would have cried too had he hugged me after the 2nd, after working so hard for him and seeing the pain in his eyes, for you, his workers, for his familiy and for our nation. :cry: I am crying now.

Welcome again and be forewarned, this place is very addicting.
My name is merh and I am a DUoholic! :hi:

[PittLib]

145. welcome ...

and i want in on the hug thing! :hi:

[m berst]

74. great posts here merh

I am a skeptic and cynical about the party leadership, but you make excellent points here.

A question or two - if, as you say, Kerry won and the election was stolen, should we not be adjusting our thinking to the new reality that is implied by that? Many who sound critical of Kerry now are people who are looking beyond this election to a new phase of resistance and judging Kerry in that light. See what I mean? I fear that the people who are wed to Kerry will fold their tents if Kerry does, and start talking about the 2006 and 2008 elections. Of course, if they get away with stealing this election there will be no 2006 election that means anything.

I don't think that there is any way to avoid the consequences of a stolen election by giving up the fight as unwinnable. The fight will go on, and it will profressiveley become less and less winnable than it is now. A stolen election is just the current phase of the attempt to enslave us. We fight it now, or they will bring the fight to us one way or another.

They stole the election for a reason, and the reason is that they want to steal our government. A stolen government - by people bent on installing theocratic totalitarianism - can there be any doubt about that? - will mean a whole new level of repression that will make fighting a stolen election look pretty mild.

What are your thoughts on what is next?

[merh]

91. My thoughts on what is next are simple, the "what is now" is still

being dealt with and investigated. As pointed out by ohioan's post that I included in the post that began this thread, the process is still on going for the 2004 election process. There are quite a few deadlines that have yet to be met. I am willing to wager that many, many folks are working on trying to determine what fraud took place, you cannot adequately treat cancer until you are sure where it has spread and what type of cance you are dealing with. The tests are being run.

[ohioan]

46. Beautiful. Thank you.

[merh]

50. Thank you for the use of your wise words!

and your kind comments about the writing. :toast:

[DURHAM D]

47. Black... who? n/t

[LittleClarkie]

66. "I will gladly do it all over again if given the chance."

Ditto. His was the first campaign I've ever worked on in any substantial way beyond just stopping in to look around HQ and pick up bumper stickers.

I would gladly show up at a Kerry HQ again to phone bank, enter data, donate supplies, distribute yard signs, buttons and bumper stickers, GOTV at the end or anything else I could get the guts up to do. We had a great volunteer army in Wisconsin and went bluer this year than in 2000. (kudos to Gwen Moore for her help in getting out the black vote that probably pushed us over the edge),

I worked for about about 4 months whenever I had time. Took a few vacation days during those months just to hang at HQ all day and do whatever. I met some great people, including one guy who was with Kerry during his testimony in 71, and many, many Kerry travellers who put their lives on hold to come and help us Battlegrounders. I'd love to do it again. Only this time I wouldn't work the campaign "whenever I had time." Damn it, I'd make the time.

As for:
"Kerry never was planning on keeping that money. The campaign was always going to give it back to the party so they could use it for 2006."

I don't doubt it. I think that Braile (sp?)and the media were spinning things so that no matter what Sen. Kerry did, it would look like he was politicking. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Welcome, and thank you for all your hard work! Give him that hug for me too. And I'm praying for all of you and all of us for strength. This must have been rough, knowing you were winning and then being crushed, as were we all.

Take care of yourself!

Erica the Clarkie for Kerry

[Garbo 2004]

115. Thanks for your post, jzodda. n/t

[spooky3]

21. The only thing I'd add is the same goes for John Edwards. Good post!

[merh]

38. Most definitely the same goes for John Edwards!

Bless his heart, the media so rarely covered his campaign efforts that I heard many ask, "where's Edwards?"

Thank you John Edwards and family! :hug:

[Cherie59]

34. amen!

[emulatorloo]

39. Thanks, merh, for posting this. . .EOM

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. Bush went negative and is at 60.1 million. Kerry went positive and is at

57.4 million votes. While there were missteps in the campaign ..he ran a fine, positive campaign and I place the blame for this election squarely on the 30 million people who got to vote for George Bush twice.

[merh]

45. LOL -

" place the blame for this election squarely on the 30 million people who got to vote for George Bush twice"

Thanks for the chuckle!

[ohioan]

48. Beautiful, Beautiful! Thank you for say what SO many of us are feeling

[zulchzulu]

49. I plan on keeping my Kerry Support site indefinitely

It's evolving, but the message of hope needs to be sent out and available long after the dust settles on this election.

If you have any contributions or want to keep up, visit:
www.kerrysupport.com

[merh]

51. I will visiit your site - thank you for maintaining it

I just love the guy and miss him! Thanks again :hi:

[Stuckinthebush]

52. Best damn post I've read in two weeks

I am sick of the blame Kerry crowd and the blame the Dems crowd. Hell no we don't need to abandon our principles. We won in 2000 on them, and we probably won in 2004 on them.

There are much bigger issues here such as the integrity of our democracy. We need to forget trying to find common ground between us and the crazy religious right and spend that energy on figuring out how they hell they are stealing these elections and stopping them. Otherwise, it won't matter what we do.

Thank you for the post.

[merh]

56. That is very nice of you to make such a comment about the

post. Thank you.

In addition to trying to determine how they stole the election, we have to get a hold on the media. Kerry had a message that wasn't heard by millions. They forced a silence on the campaign by not reporting it as equally as they did anything the weed said or did. We have a wonderful platform and very strong message, we just are not allowed to be heard. The refining needed is to stop the folks in the campaign from playing nice all the time. If it is important enough, we must learn how to fight for it. I don't mean lies and smears and threats, I mean passion and truth.

[seito]

58. Agree

Kerry fought a good fight. We have no idea what he is or is not doing "behind the scenes" at this time.

I am proud to support him and I believe that he will do everything in his power to deliver on his promises.

The bigger issues are:

The integrity of the vote and the faith that Americans have in the elections process.

The media bias that has hijacked our Democracy.

[ebayfool]

59. What merh said - Much better than I could put in words!

Thanks for putting into words what I've tried, but couldn't, express.

edit:Arrgh! I can't spell worth a hoot either!
I give up - I need to learn sign language!

[WillyT]

60. Great Post Mehr !!! - What You Said...

is the only reason I still stand with the Democratic Party. I was sure for a while last year, that if we blew this thing, that I was going Green or Independent.

I no longer feel that way, because WE DID NOT BLOW IT!!!

We put it all out there, and fought like hell. I am proud of our efforts, and will stay and fight for the Democratic Party. With all the lies, propaganda, and obstacles thrown in our path, we did valiant work. As did John Kerry.

:hi::kick::hi:

[strangemedicine]

62. Bless you, merh

for posting your thoughts. I share your sentiments. We have been robbed of a great President, Vice President and a very dynamic First Lady. Let's let our anger and frustration loose on the mafia boss and his cronies in the white house. Let's not take this out on each other, please! If we are divided, it makes the repugs job just that much easier.
Peace to you and your families. And again, thank you good woman.

[newyawker99]

84. Hi strangemedicine!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Demi_Babe]

65. Excellent post...thank you!

[DemCam]

67. Your post restores my faith.

Thank you, thank you for saying so well what I have been feeling about all of the Kerry bashing. It has been sickening and disheartening to read here. Downright ugly, even.

DU has been my source of information throughout this campaign...and for the last four years...even though I haven't posted as much as so many of you. I come here daily to get the dish and find solace. But there has been no solace in this feeding frenzy after this election.

I tell myself that this is just how some people handle loss...but it is time to stop this destruction fest. For all of our sakes.

At least I know there are many of you out there that aren't participating...so thanks again for a really good post.

[trueblueliberal]

70. Great post, thanks

I've been reading the boards here for a few weeks now, and am so glad I found this place! But I have been somewhat disturbed the last few days by the amount of Kerry bashing, mostly because that's NOT what we need to be doing now. Sure he did some things wrong, but who wouldn't? I was so amazed at the way everyone came together in this campaign to fight, and we put up a really good fight. The republican machine is firmly in place, and it's going to be difficult to unseat them, but we'll never be able to do it unless we stick together on this. We shouldn't be wasting our time arguing with each other or bashing--we're all in this together. If there's one thing the repubs have learned to do, it's to put differences aside in order to stay united for the fight.

[newyawker99]

85. Hi trueblueliberal!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Behind the Aegis]

71. Losers?

When anybody loses anything (competition), it is natural to look back and start blaming "this or that." We all do it. In this case, we are blaming different things; some blame the media, some John Kerry, others the Democrat Party, a few blame gays or supports of legal abortions, and many blame the voting process (machines, DieBold). I will freely admit that when Kerry conceded the next day, I went through the roof! I was so angry! I didn't want him as my candidate, I wanted Dean. But, when he was chosen, it didn't matter, he wasn't Shrub. Then, I felt that was not good enough for me, so I read more about him and his stances and I soon decided I was voting FOR Kerry, not AGAINST Shrub.

The time has come to focus on the real issue...making sure ALL votes are counted! What is done, is done. It cannot be undone! Instead of the continuous attacks on Kerry, gays, or whomever, it is MORE important to focus on the projects at hand...exposing irregularities in voting, counting all votes, demanding recounts, and getting media to act responsibly!

It is important to look at the past and learn from it. But, we must learn from it, not live in it! We can be civil in our discussions. WE mustn't continue the attacks on other Democrats, we have Rethugs for that! United we stand, divided we fall! Which will this party (and DU) choose?

I will insert my own hopes here...Kerry has fought in war. He is a successful senator. He came from behind in the primaries. He knows strategy. My hope, perhaps false, is that he is lying low. Has the media given him a fair shake in the past? NO! If he were to be aggressive now, they would have a field day! Let the others demand recounts, let the media ignore it, until it is too late! Until January 20, 2005, in my mind, this fight is NOT over! Call me Pollyanna, I have been called worse!

Sometimes, you learn more from failing than you do from winning. The real test, since we lost(?) the election, is will we lose the lesson?

[merh]

81. Kerry was a prosecutor that used the powers of the grand jury

to investigate many, many crimes (white collar included). The grand jury is a secretive body, they let the investigators investigate and they listen as the evidence, facts, whatever, are presented to them. Then they decide whether or not there is enough evidence to charge someone with a crime.

I am hoping that the investigation is being handled in a very similar fashion. Let the body determining whether there is enough evidence to allege fraud be secretive. Just because their considerations and the investigation are done in secret does not mean that there is no investigation.

[Brundle_Fly]

72. AMEN

Well said, sure a couple of weeks to get it out of your system, sure, you are mad, but enough!

The Repukes are all over the air saying there is division in the dem party, don't you believe it! Dont get Roved!

Left is right, we all know it, move on, and lets get some unity here.

[IndianaGreen]

75. "(Kerry) a candidate so little admired and so greatly unloved. "

Published on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 by the New York Observer
Now Is Not the Time For National Unity!
by Nicholas von Hoffman

The party leaders—such as they are—knocked out Howard Dean and swung behind Mr. Kerry because they thought he could win. Think back to last winter and early spring, when that argument was repeatedly used for the longtime, non-standout Senator from Massachusetts. He could win and the crazy cuckoo-loco from Vermont had no chance. Pick John Kerry because, the pros said, John Kerry could win—except they didn’t know what they were talking about.

Nevertheless, thousands upon thousands of ardent idealists, out of overweening fear of a second Bush term, went to work for Mr. Kerry. They gave money they often couldn’t afford and time they could have usefully employed in their own strapped private lives. Seldom have so many worked so hard for a candidate so little admired and so greatly unloved. But they were told to put all the doubts aside: Don’t listen when he said things that made his own supporters grind their teeth—just keep your head down and work for him because, said the sleazeheads who run the party, he can win.

Except he didn’t.

Since his winning was the sole and entire raison d’être for Mr. Kerry’s candidacy, his losing has left Democrats and their fellow travelers with a hole in the ground, with nothing. John Kerry was not the champion of a cause which orators can say will go on after him. His cause was beating George Bush and so making sure a clump of hideous, faith-based horrors do not take over the Supreme Court. Duh? This is not a Democratic version of the famous 1964 Goldwater campaign, in which the Republican candidate got skunked but left the G.O.P. with a cause, a goal and a high purpose which would animate hundreds of thousands for years and victories to come. Not the Kerry campaign: It has left us with the hole in the doughnut.

No legacy here save the very dubious political practice of—well, not quite lying, but employing the magician’s art of misdirection and illusion. It was typified in the campaign by the photo op of John Kerry in brand-new hunting togs against a country background, carrying a shotgun, accompanied by a flunky holding a dead goose. I am second to none in my low estimation of the American public, but not even our morons are going to be fooled into thinking the man in the center of that picture is not a liberal on gun control. Shoot the goose, carry the goose. Such pathetic, embarrassed, inept deception.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1117-28.htm

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

78. You sure love to post a good crock of shit

Uh..no his winning for many of us was the environment, protecting women's rights and making sure the Supreme Court was not stacked with any more Scalia's.

Post a bit more pond scum...it's working

[IndianaGreen]

120. Nicholas von Hoffman is a progressive, as is Common Dreams, unlike

the DLC and its supporters which clearly are not.

[angrydemocrat]

76. EXXXCELLENT POST!

Iagree with you 100%. I don't understand all the back stabbing around here. It is truly is unreal! This man worked hard as did many of us. He did so because he loves this country and the people in it! This man is a true staesman that has fought hard for the poor, middle class, working man and woman because he beleives that all Americans should be able to live the American dream not just the wealthy and privaledged and he will continue to do so. For this Kerry deserves great respect and I will support him all the way!

[angrydemocrat]

77. Excellent Post!

I agree with you 100%! Kerry is true statesman that loves his country, the people in it, and he loves serving his country and the American people. Kerry has worked hard and will continue to do so for poor, middle class, working people in this country. For this Kerry deserves repect and I will support him all the way!

[ScreamingMeemie]

79. He didn't stick around to make sure all votes were counted. He promised

us that at least. :(

[merh]

83. Did you watch his interview of the 16th?

Have you read all posts here? Just wondering, because all what you said in your post has been addressed.

How do you know he isn't doing anything? :shrug: Just wondering?

[ScreamingMeemie]

86. Because I've gotten my hopes up thousands of times...to have them

crushed. If it were true, I'd be delighted, but I'm just not going there. My stomach cannot take any more.

[merh]

88. I understand.

I don't sleep at night and there are times I wish I was as ignorant and naive as the majority of my fellow citizens. Because of their naive ignorance, they see the weed as a hero and not as the destructive force that those of us willing to read and research know him to be.

It is like the book "Flowers for Algernon" - there are times I beg to not know all that I have learned over the years regarding the operation of my country and the distorting and perversion of her values and laws. :cry:

For all that I know about how things truly are and how things work, I cannot give up hope, I just can't. :shrug:

[merh]

94. This is apparently the message from John Kerry today:

"Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted -- we will continue to challenge this administration. This is not a time for Democrats to retreat and accommodate extremists on critical principles -- it is a time to stand firm.

I will fight for a national standard for federal elections that has both transparency and accountability in our voting system. It's unacceptable in the United States that people still don't have full confidence in the integrity of the voting process.

I ask you to join me in this cause."

That's a passage from a message Sen. John Kerry will be sending out to supporters later this afternoon.
-- Josh Marshall

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_11_14.php#004043

[tavalon]

82. Yeah

I'm turning to your point of view as I get over this thing. My grief process included a great deal of rage pointed directly at Kerry. That is easing and the points you make in your post are extremely valid. Even on day one, when someone mentioned to me that Kerry was a plant, I laughed (there wasn't much to laugh at that day) because there is no way, no how that anyone would put themselves through what Kerry and his family did just to help out the Rethugs.

[donsu]

89. 600 days vs. 4 yrs.

on the day of the 2000 coup d'etat I gave up my normal life to work at getting rid of the criminal bushgang.

if Kerry is fighting back it is an invisible fight.

[merh]

92. Thank you for your efforts

but actually, Kerry has 30 years of public service, not just the 600 days. When you put your name on the ballot, when you subject your family to the attacks and you watch thousands of folks try to undermine and sell short your 30 years, when you mortgage your home, then I will equate your efforts to Senator Kerry's.

How many of us are willing to damned the candidate, yet never run for elected office? It ain't no cake walk.

[Snivi Yllom]

90. Sorry but until you accept reality, you can;t move on and rebuild.

Kerry did lose and he is to blame. He picked terrible campaign managers, solicited bad advice, he did not hit back at the Swift Boat bullshit, and he did not stay on message which opened himself up to needless attacks.

And as for the nonsense that Kerry won Ohio, it may make some feel good to think he won, but it's sort of like eating a chocolate bar for a meal. It may taste good initially, but you will still be hungry later.

[merh]

93. I have accepted more reality about my government and

those that control her than most and I have personally experienced and witnessed the destruction of lives at the hands of the corporate thugs that have entwined themselves in the functions of my government. That does not negate my hope.

You chose to see the glass half empty, I chose to see it half full. :shrug:

[Snivi Yllom]

96. I understand that

But I think the level in the glass is far below the halfway point.

It's time to pour out what remains in the glass, wash it out, and refill it with new life. IMO Kerry is part of the remaining puddle in the bottom of the glass. A healthy mix of pessimism and realism can lead to optimism.

[merh]

102. Please feel free to do what you like with you glass.

I really don't need anyone telling me what to do with mine. Thanks for the advice, though. :hi:

[Teaser]

97. It's a Democratic tradition.

To threaten, posture about leaving the party, attack other Democrats, form circular firing squads.

And we do it very well. Much better than we actually execute campaigns or communicate progressive ideas.

Nah,DU loves beating up on dems. It gives so many people here hard ons. You're playing Sisyphus on this issue, I'm afraid.

[okieinpain]

100. standing in the checkout line last night, two black females talking

in front of me. one says that she didn't have time to vote, the other says what for, they are all the same. later that evening I'm talking to my brother in atlanta, and I mention the two girls, and he tells me not to get mad at them because his two son's didn't vote either.

maybe the democratic party has been too successful and our base has gotten fat and lazy.

[GoSolar]

105. Thanks.

Nice post. :)

[Butterflies]

107. Thankyou

You think like I do. I'll be keeping my John Kerry bumpersticker on my car until bush is out of office. Kerry would've been a very good president, and I'm proud to have supported him.

[onecitizen]

108. Thanx for this post

he wasn't my first pick, but WE picked him and I supported him. He didn't lose on purpose, it was stolen from him. Now is the time for us to hang together and support us all (each other). We have to be together to defeat the evil empire.

[merh]

109. Email of 11-19-04 from John Kerry

I want to thank you personally for what you did in the election -- you rewrote the book on grassroots politics, taking control of campaigns away from big donors. No campaign will ever be the same.

You moved voters, helped hold George Bush accountable, and countered the attacks from big news organizations such as Fox, Sinclair Broadcasting, and conservative talk radio.

And your efforts count now more than ever. Despite the words of cooperation and moderate sounding promises, this administration is planning a right wing assault on values and ideals we hold most deeply. Healthy debate and diverse opinion are being eliminated from the State Department and CIA, and the cabinet is being remade to rubber stamp policies that will undermine Social Security, balloon the deficit, avoid real reforms in health care and education, weaken homeland security, and walk away from critical allies around the world.

Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted -- we will continue to challenge this administration. This is not a time for Democrats to retreat and accommodate extremists on critical principles -- it is a time to stand firm.

I will fight for a national standard for federal elections that has both transparency and accountability in our voting system. It's unacceptable in the United States that people still don't have full confidence in the integrity of the voting process.

I ask you to join me in this cause.

And we must fight not only against George Bush's extreme policies -- we must also uphold our own values. This is why on the first day Congress is in session next year, I will introduce a bill to provide every child in America with health insurance. And, with your help, that legislation will be accompanied by the support of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

There are more than eight million uninsured children in our nation.

That's eight million reasons for us to stay together and fight for a new direction. It is a disgrace that in the wealthiest nation on earth, eight million children go without health insurance.

Normally, a member of the Senate will first approach other senators and ask them to co-sponsor a bill before it is introduced -- instead, I am turning to you. Imagine the power of a bill co-sponsored by hundreds of thousands of Americans being presented on the floor of the United States Senate. You can make it happen. Sign our "Every Child Protected" pledge today and forward it to your family, friends, and neighbors:

http://johnkerry.com/EveryChild

This is the beginning of a second term effort to hold the Bush administration accountable and to stand up and fight for our principles and our values. They want you to disappear; they are counting on that. I'm confident you will prove them wrong, and you will rewrite history again.

Here is what I want you to know. I understand the strength, commitment, and passion that are at the core of what we built together -- and I am determined to make our collective energy and organization a force to be reckoned with in the weeks and months ahead.

Let's roll up our sleeves and get back to work for our country.

Thank you,
John Kerry


http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/everychild.php

[Digit]

111. I absolutely, totally agree with your post.

Kerry/Edwards did nothing wrong at all.
Afterall, I believe they actually DID win.

[merh]

112. Kerry and Edwards have nothing to be ashamed of -

they should be proud of the race they ran. I am! :grouphug:

[txindy]

114. Awesome post

That lays it all out quite clearly. Thanks! :hi:

[merh]

116. Thank you.

:toast:

[Gayla]

118. Thanks!

MERH, great post and great over-all discussion generated by it.

www.coleforcongress.com

[northamericancitizen]

122. kick

[H2O Man]

124. Very impressive job, Merh!

I am impressed - as always - with your ability to see a situation accurately, and to cut through what is NOT important .... and to focus upon what IS important .... and necessary.

I struggle at times, on DU, because it has become apparent that we have gathered not only a wonderful collection of insightful people, who are interested in expressing, exchanging, and comparing ideas ....which is the best potential of DU .... but also a significant and growing number of people are not "bad" in the sense of being "freepers" or "trolls" or the like .... but are people who mistakenly believe we have "lost" .... They are "lost" in the sense that they do not understand what has occured in the last two weeks, much less the last four years. Without that understanding to root them, and without the capacity to compare .... they haven't the ability to understand. Because, my good and intensely thoughtful friend, they do not understand the Measure of Thought, and therefore can not hope to believe in the Power of Ideas. And because of this, they do not have an appreciation for where we are today in America. They are trying to define this in strictly limited terms of "win" and "lose," which require shallow definitions of "good" versus "bad," and hence John Kerry is rejected like an early would-be christian saint, shunted aside when it was found that his flesh had putrified in the grave of defeat.

And so at this very time, it is even more important that a well thought out essay such as this appears on this forum ..... not only in an exchange with those who actually do get it, and know that our work is really cut out for us ..... but even more importantly, because of those who in the fog and mists of confusion and frustration are likely to take the wrong road .... which leads to apathy and worse.

For that, I thank you very much.

[merh]

140. It is good of you to join our little discourse H2O.

Thank you for the kind words about my little effort. I have been so frustrated with all of the blame that some folks on this forum want place at the feet of the leaders of our party and our candidate. No, we didn't win, how could we when the media gave the weed all of the free coverage he wanted, when he had more press conferences during the campaign than he did during the first 3 years of his term, when he could campaign on military bases under the guise of conducting pep rallies "supporting our troops" and the media would laud him as hero?

I was severely depressed when they gave the weed the election, I was angry when Kerry conceded, but that was then, that was when emotion was controlling my thinking. In the light of day, after the passage of the days since the election, I began to listen to the spin and realized that they, the BFEE, rove & poppy & their minions, want us to do just what we have been doing, accept the defeat, blame our leaders and our candidates for losing, question our principles and the direction of our party, doubt our stands and give in to their way of thinking, compromising our values. They want us at each others throats and they want us to blame Kerry, hate our candidate. They fear him and they fear us, we have put together one hell of a grass roots effort that is not as organized as theirs, but was (is) highly effective.

I will not give into them, I will not play their games, I will not believe their lies and I will definitely not bow my head in shame, nor blame my candidate or party for the election results. They stole the election.

I blame the ignorant citizens of my nation for believing everything they are told, for not questioning their leaders, for having so much blind faith in their nation and its leaders that they are prevented from seeing the truth relative to how much danger we are in, not just our nation, but the world.

I am ranting again, sorry. Thank you for your kind words and your wise input. The repukes have found that they can capitalize on raw emotion and they have used it (fear, terra, patriotism) to control most of the citizens of this nation, I will not allow them to use mine in that way. I intend to use reason and truth in my efforts to defeat their efforts. The only emotions that come into play will be my love of truth and the principles upon which my nation has been built and my anger at the BFEE for trying to destroy my nation. They can not take those from me or take advantage of them.

Thank you again, my friend. :toast:

[H2O Man]

147. This thread relates closely

to so many on DU at this time, that I believe it explains why it was such an important topic to be brought to people's attention. That you were able to do it in so thoughful a manner is a credit to your ability to communicate, and perhaps more importantly, is a benefit to DU.

It reminds me of a little conflict on a thread on GD regarding Plame, where after a person insulted those of us interested in the case, a person demanded that I convince him/her that the cae is of any significance. S/he became more hostile when I said to convine him/her of anything, because if a person's beliefs are held together by the words or behaviors of someone else, then their belief are dependent on external means ..... and when people's beliefs in anything hinge upon someone else, the truth has simply not taken root within themselves .... and they haven't yet seen the Goodness of Truth themselves. And there is nothing as merciless as the logic of Truth alone.

So, while I have no problem with those who question Kerry, or question the Plame case, or who question anything .... it is their responsibility to investigate for themselves, with an open mind -- which means not having already arrived at the conclusion that "Kerry sold us out!" or "Plame amounts to NOTHING!" -- and decide for themselves. Your article, when read properly, provides important guidelines in how to think .... rather than what to think.

[merh]

148. Heehee, I remember that thread or was it threads.

;-) I hadn't made that correlation but now that I have, I do appreciate the perspective. Thank you. :-)

[Tellurian]

125. Wonderful, merh-- wonderful!

Thank you for rising to the task of expressing what most of us believe deep down in our hearts.

I am amazed at the response by some posters castigating Kerry for not taking a stand creating and repeating the disaster of the befallen Gore. They seem to have forgotten, there are 100 ways to skin a cat.

I am inspired Kerry has chosen a demiurgic route with as little fanfare as possible, to do just that. Armed with facts (after an extensive and exhaustive investigation) rather than pinning his hopes on a corrupt, pernicious, justice system arriving at a (predetermined) prejudicial "just" decision.

High accolades, merh!

Thanks for being the voice of reason...

Tellurian

[merh]

142. LOL, I so love your posts, I have to go to dictionary.com to

look up some of the words you use, but I appreciate the lesson and I truly appreciate your words of encouragement.

We must not play the game that they want us to play. We have to recognize what we have accomplished and we have to build upon our talents, not diminish them with blame and ridicule. A friend of mine that recently passed away was the democratic candidate for a post. It was a costly and bitter campaign which he eventually won, but it was a very trying time for him. His repuke candidate, the loser, was rewarded by the party for his efforts in the campaign by being named to an administrative post that paid more than the elected office paid. My friend joked before he died that his biggest political and financial mistake had been that he had not run and lost as a repuke because the repuke party rewards its losers with comfy, cushy jobs. Repukes don't punish, ridicule or banish their candidates, they reward them for their loyalty to and efforts for the party by appointing them to commissions or administrative offices that are less rigid and often times higher paying and more powerful than the office they sought. (Ashcroft) Not the dems, we banish the losers, brand them as failures, blame them for losing and waste our talent. We don't show loyalty to them so why do we expect them to be loyal to us?

I have no idea if we can prove that they stole the election, if it can I will be delighted, if it can't I will continue to support Senator Kerry in his efforts to be a thorn in the side of the weed that would be king.

:toast: to loyalty, to reason and to cultivating talent, not burying it!

[trueblueliberal]

126. Kick

[Tommy Vercetti]

128. I Blame John Kerry

If you can't even acknowledge your faults, you can never fix them. John Kerry and his campaign manager are to blame for losing. They made some horrible mistakes.

First, John Kerry's views were inconsistent. He voted for the war, before voting against funding, before saying he supported it, before saying "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time," etc. He even bragged "I actually did vote for the 87 billion, before I voted against it." Of course his portrayal of being a flip-flopper was vastly exaggerated, but Kerry was unable to defend himself against those accusations.

Second, the Swift Boat Vets absolutely devastated him. Was it his fault that they attacked him? No, of course not. But, considering that the accusations made against him were false, Kerry should have been able to defend himself against those attacks. Instead, he didn't respond.

Third, Kerry is not very appealing. He is very rich, which turns a lot of people off. He owns a few houses, a jet, a ski resort, and a few cars. Bush is very rich too, but did a better job of hiding it. Kerry also doesn't seem like he's a real person. I would much rather sit down and have a beer with Bush, even though he screwed the country, because he seems normal. Kerry doesn't.

To sum it all up, Kerry and his campaign screwed up in several areas, all of which cost them the election. Of course many events that were beyond his control happened, but if he hadn't made so many mistakes he may have won. It was a very close election, and every minor thing he said could have changed the outcome.

[H2O Man]

131. Tommy: is that really you?

Glad you could stop in to counter this garbage! You hit the nail on the head about Kerry's wealth putting people off. Not like the Bush Dynasty at all. 'Pon my word, Tom, I think it's Kerry's starting wars all about the globe that ruined it. Thank Bob that W is a pacemaker. This generation could use a few more Ken Lays. You done a good job.

[LittleClarkie]

132. I am John F. Kerry. I own a mansion and a yacht

I wish people would get the freaking facts straight. Do I have to send y'all over to snopes.com again to bust a few myths (again!)

Don't mistake Kerry's money for Teresa's. Those are her houses, not his. THEY own one house together, the one Kerry mortgaged. She's super rich, Kerry... not so much. Which is why she has a pre-nup.

Oh, he comfortable. More comfortable than I am. But he's not "super rich."

And I'd much rather have a beer with someone who can have a nice, intelligent conversation with me.

[H2O Man]

133. But you can ask Tommy .....

Kerry started WW1 and WW2, and then was a draft beer dodger on the Brookyln Astronuts For Shrimp Boats. I agrease with Thombly that John O'Neal was far more so than most who weren't.

[merh]

139. Welcome to DU, but please be very careful

posting right wing talking points that are exaggerations or out and out lies will get you flamed or banned. Your post contains very little truth. I would surmise that you are not old enough to buy a beer, but I guess that wouldn't prevent the weed from giving you one and drinking with you (despite the fact that he allegedly gave up alcohol when he turned 40). If you are old enough to buy a beer your post doesn't reflect it. :hi:

[shuffnew]

178. You sound like part of the Bush machine... kin to Rove or SBV?

You truly sound like one of the Repukes. Dems know every answer to the lies that you are posting, so obviously you haven't studied much on the subjects you are quoting or you would know they were Rove and SBV machine lies.

[aprillcm]

130. Amen!

This is why our party is constantly weakening! We do not stay united. So time to stop the infighting and start getting mad at the right people BUSH REPUBLICANS!

[johnaries]

137. Agreed! PEEople, FOCUS please!

OK, so Kerry conceded publicly. That's Politics, let's bring the country together. How long has Kerry been in the Senate playing this game? Meanwhile, he still has lawyers "watching", and although he's careful not to raise "expectations" that voter fraud might overturn the election, he's not ruling it out, either (don't forget Cam's letter - and why do you think he had Cam respond rather than doing it himself? Kerry is NOT stupid!). Now, after barely taking a deep breath, he's ATTACKING with a new video on Child Health Care.

This is what is known as a "contingency plan". Personally, I am very proud of the work that I've seen herE on DU and I think we can overturn the election or at least prove Fraud like we did with the Nixon Administration....

But, just in case, John Kerry is already working on Plan B.

JOHN KERRY IS MY PRESIDENT!!!!

[Proud liberal Kat]

134. I am behind you and Kerry 100%

I supported him without reservation throughout the campaign and in the voting booth on November 2nd.

I supported his decision to concede with grace on Nov. 3rd and keep the horrible excuse we have for a media's noses out of the process of looking into fraud and voting recounts.

I will continue to support him if he becomes President Elect.

I will continue to support him if the fraud can't be proven or if it isn't enough to actually change the results as a US Senator who I think will fight for the very things I thought he would fight for as President.

I will look to him to lead the charge in the Senate if he can't from the White House.
Kathy

[noamnety]

136. I'm with you, kat

Kerry's earned my respect and loyalty, without reservation.

[Uzybone]

138. Wonderful post!

I only have one quibble. I think Bush actually got more votes than we did. There is a lot of ignorance and hatred and selfishness and bigotry in this country. We have to find a way to counter it. Any other candidate we ran would have lost this election by 10+ million votes. Kerry did a great job but for a few issues.

[Dem2theMax]

143. Thank you merh! nt.

[PittLib]

144. Perfect...

Thank you. You are much more eloquent and organized than I - but you expressed many of my thoughts on this wonderfully.

On edit: If it wasn't 6 am (no sleep yet), I'd elaborate if only to heap on further praise ...

[merh]

159. thank you for your kind words!

I hope you are getting some rest. :hi:

[formernaderite]

146. Apparently it's all Osama's fault....

...Kerry didn't have the time to respond to the tape. Oh, please.

[merh]

149. That had a great deal to do with it, if you don't believe me, go

ask a bushbot about it. Take a deep breath, try to view things without emotion - reason things out and you will feel better. :think:

[Lord Kerry]

150. WE MUST HAVE CIVIL WAR 2!!!!!!

I am now tired of the pacifism. If we say fight, let it be literally. I say overthrow. I am willing to die for our liberal cause, are you?

[merh]

157. I much prefer waiting to see what happens in the next couple of

months if you don't mind. :tinfoilhat: I believe reason, logic and the facts are a much better approach to handling the situation. Violence is not the answer, but I do understand your passion. Might I suggest that you be very careful in your calls for violence and posting them on a public forum such as DU, Agent Mikes (:hi: Agent Mike) are constantly reading these forums and they don't take threats of violence very lightly.

I welcome you to DU :hi:, but if your goal is to insight violent means to deal with our present situation you may not last long.

[Lord Kerry]

164. Sorry.

I feel like I am backed in a corner. Everything we say and do is gone on deaf ears, I.E. this election. Sorry if I went overboard, maybe just the frustration. But we must be vigilant. We might not have a choice. But thats my opinion.

[merh]

166. As I said, I understand your passion and frustration.

No apology necessary. We have to find a way to make the system work for us and our leaders answerable to us again. We have to figure out how to get the media out of their pocket and back in the public hands so that the news is reported fairly. Welcome again, enjoy the discourse and thank you for joining in here. Be careful, DU is very addicting! :hi: :toast:

[nofurylike]

152. EXCELLENT, merh! thank you thank you so!! keep on, folks!!

it WAS stolen.

i highly recomment the following:
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1692 /

Let’s Get Real
By Mark Crispin Miller

How better to commit the perfect crime than to insist it never happened?

Bush & company’s theft of the election was a crime so obvious that it requires more effort to deny than to affirm. This rip-off was as flagrant as the L.A. cops’ assault on Rodney King, Kerry’s stellar soldiering in Vietnam, or Bush’s lousy record in the Texas Air National Guard, and yet this national calamity is being dismissed as a delusion.

-snip-

***

please keep on, everyone!!


peace!

[merh]

162. What a wonderful article! Thank you for sharing it and thank you

for the nice words about my writing.

"To forget or ignore all this and to accept—on faith—the mere say-so of Bush & Company (and our compliant media) is to make clear that you are not a member of what the Busheviks deride as “the reality-based community.” Those who help discredit false reports are doing that community, and this erstwhile democracy, a precious service. But, those who would abort the whole inquiry in the name of science or journalistic probity and “closure” are putting that community, and this nation, at grave risk."

This article reminds me of the difficulty prosecutors have proving murder when there is no body to be found. That is the problem here, we know there was election fraud, but they have done their best to hide if not destroy the body, the corpus delicti. This is a very complicated investigation, best down under the radar. Our job is not to turn on each other and our candidate, because that is falling right in to their hands, that distracts us from the real issue before us. We must continue to demand that the investigation continue and, at the same time, remember that our candidate is on our side.

Thanks again! Great article, you should start a thread with this article as the subject of your post! :toast:

[nofurylike]

170. my pleasure. thank you for your courage and determination.

check this out. you'll smile (well, through the tears, i imagine).

http://www.yuricareport.com/ElectionAftermath04/ThreeResearchStudiesBushIsOut.htm

Votergate 2004?
Research Studies Uncover Potential Massive Election Fraud
By Katherine Yurica

November 19, 2004

Finding the Corpus Delicti in the 2004 Election Results

Ordinarily victims of crimes do not have to prove the existence of the crime. The dead body or the charred ruins of a burned down building provide visual, concrete proof of the wrongdoing. Sometimes, however, the crime is intentionally hidden, buried among honest transactions, covered with obstacles, and driven through layers of deception to lie at the bottom of a muddy pond—or at the bottom of a huge box of ballots in a warehouse or buried in a computer application’s program.

-snip-
***

i found that someone did post Miller's article. glad!


please keep on!



peace!

[merh]

171. Another link to a wonderful article, thanks so much!

Has this one been given its own thread here? If not, it deserves it.

I will definitely be on the look out for your posts, you provide such great resources! :toast:

[nofurylike]

172. :) thank you!

a wealth of articles and info on the 'election':
http://www.ballotintegrity.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi

much of it posted by DUers.

:toast: to YOU!



peace!

[madison2000]

154. Thanks for a great post merh

I am proud of Kerry and Edwards and their families. They made a huge sacrifice for us.
I am proud of the incredibly hard work of the Dems on this campaign. I have never seen so many people sacrifice so much.
It is deeply disappointing.
Kerry and Edwards are not to blame.
We are not to blame.
Kerry and Edwards did not lose, the American people and the world lost, big time. We need to keep fighting for ourselves and for the world, fighting against this truly evil administration. The last thing in the world we should be doing is fighting each other.

[merh]

163. Fighting amongst ourselves plays right in their hands.

It is a distraction from the real issue, election fraud.

Thank you for your praise of my post. I appreciate it and your loyalty to our side and your focus on the issue. :toast:

[Zhade]

156. I was not a Kerry supporter...

I disagreed vehemently with his foreign policy, and thought his domestic policy to be lukewarm at best. His pro-PNAC advisors (specifically that traitor Will Marshall) really, REALLY bothered me.

Yet I do not blame Kerry for the stolen election. That would just be irrational. As far as I can see, he won it and then lost it.

He did concede pretty fast, but he has until 12/13 to show me he's not rolling over, so I'm not passing judgement on him at this time.

[opihimoimoi]

161. Thank you for such an elequent Thread...... Cheers,

Come, we have to talk, drink, eat, smile, laugh, and sing.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

165. i concur and in my eyes also!

[bigtree]

167. Thank you for this post

I believe that most folks don't have a clue what it takes to win a general election against a 'wartime' incumbent. It was going to be uphill all of the way. Scapegoating seems to be in fashion now, it was all the way through. I fail to see how folks who feel that Kerry wasn't good enough will ever get their choice to the general election if they aren't willing to accept the verdict of the majority of the voters in their own party's primary.

[4democracy]

168. I Love it! Thank you for your wonderful words

[The Traveler]

169. But we must eat our own, dude

... they are so nutricious and delicious when barbequed!

:evilgrin:

[Tigerlily]

173. Thank you.

:)

[Kimber Scott]

174. Thank you! My thoughts exactly. My bumper sticker stays on and I

will never forget why I voted for Kerry. I'm proud I did.

[IndyPriest]

175. I didn't get it until Philadelphia

I was a warm, not hot, Kerry supporter until I saw the big Philadelphia rally (with Clinton et al). Something clicked. His demeanor? His clenched teeth at every remark assailing Bush? His closing comments about "watching our backs?" Something. It dawned on me that Kerry knew he was up against The Machine, that he had his hands down its throat, and was ready to rip out its tonsils. I started to weep. I said to myself: Goddamnit, this guy knows what's going on! I felt hope stirring in me I hadn't felt in years. Then, of course, the "defeat," followed by trickles, then a torrent, of blogland news about a possible hacking. God almighty, this is a huge story. And I can't think of anyone better suited to be at the center of it than John Kerry.

[insane_cratic_gal]

176. Get your Kerry signs back out!

I posted this in a pervious thread.

Here's an Idea anyone still got their Kerry Edwards Sign? To protest of the election or of bush.. go get your Kerry Edwards signs and put it back up! It will be a refusal to acknowledge Bush.. I'll go one step futher and decorate it with christmas lights!!

It tells him we support him. It tells the world we aren't going away

I would of started a new thread but I don't have enough posts to do that yet =/

I just joined today.

[merh]

182. Welcome to DU! :hi:

I like your idea, unfortunately, unless Kerry comes to DU and tells folks he is doing something, you won't get much support for it.

Welcome & Enjoy! :hi:

[GingerSnaps]

177. Amen

:kick:

[usregimechange]

179. Thank you! nt

[Tigerlily]

180. Kick

[NamVetsWeeLass]

181. Very well said!

Very well said indeed.

[merh]

183. Thanks!

:hi: