Self deleted because of disgust.

[madfloridian]

.
Disgust with having a country with just one party now...no checks and balances.

So the winners are....anyone who hates to see a post about Dean. Congratulations.

[Sleepless In NY]

1. And the House Dems haven't?

I'm with Dean, he's a breath of fresh air.

[still_one]

2. Those Democrats just want to be republicans, screw them

[Surikat]

3. I understand that his...

...anti-war, anti-establishment message was one that he only discovered during his campaign. I wonder if he became head of the party if he would go back to what he was before he ran for President?

[NYCGirl]

6. What anti-establishment message?

Please clarify.

[Eric J in MN]

16. Dean was against the Iraq War before it started (nt)

nt

[Sandpiper]

4. Sigh...still stupidly clinging to the GOP-lite DLC strategy

That's given us nothing but failure and defeat.

[movonne]

5. We need Dean...we need someone that gets us motivated and

I am sure he could do it...the house dems are a bunch of repugs light...

[dogman]

7. Maybe they should pick someone the GOP defines as mainstream.

Zell has nothing better to do.

[d_b]

8. Ralph, I'm coming home!

[quiet.american]

9. Who are these "House Dems?"

Trace the lineage and I'll bet it leads back to the DLC (Damn Losers Club).

Well, I'm writing my "House Dems" to let them know exactly what I think of their dismissive propaganda towards Howard Dean.

It would be great if everyone who thinks well of Dr. Dean did so, too. Everywhere he goes, he gets hailed as the Dem who saved the party, then, when it's time to give him his due, he gets "politick'ed."

Well, I'm going to "put my money where my mouth is" so to speak, and at least write to my "Dems" in support of him. I know it won't turn the tide, but at least I'll do what I can to support the good doctor.

[liberalmuse]

10. Let's all defect to the Green Party.

What has happened to our party? :(

[aprillcm]

11. Lets all notice..

That the Republicans did not pick a choir boy for there Party head.

I am not crazy about Dean but anything and I mean anything would be better than another Terry McCalif(Sp)

If nothing else Dean taught all Democrats that they could get angry it was okay I respect him for that and I think he deserves a shot at this. Like I said we could do worse.

[DaveinMD]

12. they disagree with you

therefore, they must all be idiots. Despite the fact that these people all have good political careers and have proven they know how to win election if only their own.

[msongs]

13. dean is out to promote low level races & DNC dont like that.....

Dr. Dean and his organization Democracyforamerica.com have had huge success working to elect lower level local candidates and running people in races where there would otherwise be NOBODY to oppose repubs.

This is the direction Dr. Dean would take the national Dems councils...helping the low level people. It is a political crime to have a republican in a race with NOBODY opposing. As howard Dean has said, paraphrasing, it is better that the Dems candidate get only one vote (His/her own) than not have any candidate at all.

This view is totally counter to the view of the DNC, which is
interested in sucking money up to the top for its sleazy self, not sharing it with LOCAL...and I mean LOW LEVEL local people who will be the dems stars in 10 years.

I do not think Dr. Dean would be the DNC chair for the purpose of imposing his own set of beliefs on all Dems, though he would certainly make his views known. And face it, his views are centrist, far more so than our abandon ship friend Mr. Kerry, who would not even wait 24 hours after the last polls closed to cave in and run for cover.

Our county dems sent hundreds of thousands of county dems money to races outside the county, claiming it was a waste of money to support Dems candidates IN the county.

I will never give money to the county Dems again or to the national DNC.

Msongs
Riverside Ca

Political t shirts!
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Walt Starr]

14. First chance I get, I'm an (I)

Fuck this party. I'm sorry now that I sent money to Kerry and the DNC.

[0007]

35. I'll second that! Wish I hadn't either.

[City Lights]

46. I'll third it.

:grr:

[bling bling]

88. I'm sorry too.

I regret that I donated money.

I will be there for a party that stands for what I believe in. I'll donate time, money, whatever. But I am so disollusioned by the DNC right now that I'm not going to put forth anything for them again until I see by their actions that they stand for the same things that I do. So far I have not been impressed by what I've seen.

[okieinpain]

15. well I guess these folks haven't noticed that we're pretty pissed

and I would call 49% of the total vote a pretty good piece of the mainstream. I think I'm going to try and vote green in the midterms, and 08. maybe the dem leadership will stop playing with themselves, when the seen some different folks in the house.

[DaveinMD]

18. that'll show him

then two thirds of the house and senate can be Republican and Republicans can pass anything they want. Great strategy.

[okieinpain]

26. well right now, we're not getting anything. or do you know something

I don't.

[DaveinMD]

30. we're not getting anything

but we have the chance to lose a lot more. The entire new deal and great society will be eviceratd. At least up until now we have been able to prevent a lot of what the right wing wants to do. Only be uniting do we have a chance to win future elections and prevent the right from doing what they want to do.

[Walt Starr]

40. You're selling the SAME DLC BULLSHIT they sold us in 2002 and

this past election.

WE'RE NOT BUYING THE BULLSHIT ANY MORE!!!

[DaveinMD]

51. yeah

dividing is a sure recipe for victory. Watch the Republicans celebrate. And the DLC candidate did not win the primaries this year. The DLC is a scapegoat here, but they had nothing to do with this election.

[Walt Starr]

58. Not from where I'm sitting

This election had DLC written all over it from Iowa on.

[DaveinMD]

63. anything you don't like

you blame on the DLC. They are the great boogeyman.

[Walt Starr]

76. Love the way you decide what's going on in my head over the internet

:eyes:

[madfloridian]

44. self deleted

.

[DaveinMD]

54. we need to come up with a message

that combines a new populism that appeals to both liberals and moderates. We need to stop ceding the values debate and appeal for rural votes. We do this by pointing out the immorality of high unemployment. the immorality of high rates of unemployment, the immorality of crony capitalism and so on. We do this by appealing for southern votes by running against corruption in all places. We should take advantage of our status by becoming the party that runs against washington. I would give up the gun control issue as Dr. Dean has done and as Governor Warner has done. I think economic populism and running against Washington is the recipe for success.

[okieinpain]

47. well saying that dean is a problem isn't going to help. we've been

listening to the so-called leader ship for a while now. and all I see is field full of dem corpses.

[DaveinMD]

50. he's not a problem

but he's not the only Democrat out there. He's a good man. But there are other good Democrats out there.

[Walt Starr]

36. Actually, it's a DAMN GOOD STRATEGY!

Let the fuckers have it all, I'm sick of "woe is me the sky is falling we'll move right, ya'll on the left keep sending us money and campaiging and making phone calls so we can come in second" DLC BULLSHIT!!!!

FUCK THAT SHIT!!! LET THE DEMS LOSE EVERY FUCKING ELECTION FROM NOW ON UNTIL THEY REALIZE SELLING OUT CORE PRINCIPLES LOSES ELECTIONS!!!!

Thank you.

[DaveinMD]

55. tell me what core principles the party abondoned

I don't see it. We nominated the most liberal candidate since Mondale. He was actually more liberal than Dean. Dean said so himself.

[wurzel]

17. What has "Mainstream America" done for us lately?

[a new day]

19. Pelosi is starting to piss me off

First, she's rubbing shoulders with Shrub and being presented a YoYo by her House GOP colleagues. Well, her daughter got some good footage for her documentary.

Then, she supported Gephardt in the primaries, well that was payback.

Yesterday, she's kissing Kerry's ring as the prince returns to the senate.

Now, she's going for Vilsack.

Some liberal.

[demwing]

20. HELLO..Morons? Your bus is leaving...

Dean is about as mainstream American as they come. The problem is that the Dem Party Establishment is out of the mainstream and couldn't find the mainstream if it bit them in the ass.

[fishwax]

25. Yeah, it's funny because

in the primaries he called for dems to reach out to other segments of America and got ripped for it (I'm thinking of the infamous and infamously-twisted-of-context confederate flags and gun racks statement).

The truth is ... WE ARE mainstream America. Not the Pat Robertsons of the world, who have somehow managed to capture the illusion of the center without having to veer anywhere near it.

[DaveinMD]

27. the way he made that statement

was incredibly offensive according to many African Americans I know. The intention was great, but the wording was awful.

[JohnKleeb]

29. I agree good intentions but the way he said it made me upset

it was a sterotype of the south.

[DaveinMD]

32. and using the confederate flag

was offensive to African Americans as well. I work with an African American political consultant who thought that Dean had no ability to connect with African Americans. He also wasn't too happy that Dean only had one African American working at national HQ.

[JohnKleeb]

39. that offended me too honestly

Not that this right here is an issue but Ive actually seen more confederate flags out of Virginia than I have in, in rural areas of Pennsylvania like near Gettysburg and Maryland near Sharpsburg I see them, the confederate flag offends me deeply because of what it means to blacks and how the KKK uses it too.

[madfloridian]

42. JK, you are too smart for that.

That is silly for you to say that.

[DaveinMD]

59. he doesn't agree with you

so its silly. I guess it must be illegal to question anything Dean does. It was a stupid remark. And I bet Dr. Dean would tell you as much. He's a smart guy. He knows when he's made a mistake.

[madfloridian]

41. self-deleted

.

[DaveinMD]

49. I haven't giving anything away

I even know the name of the staffer. Andy Pringle. She was the only one and it pissed off my colleague.

[fishwax]

60. Yeah, the confederate flag is automatically a divisive issue

and racist to its core. When I heard it (I was a Deaniac in the primaries) I couldn't believe he said it and wished that he hadn't ... but what I really wished is that we could have had a chance to discuss his main point ... that there are a lot of knee-jerk republicans in the south and in rural areas who really should be voting for democrats, and democrats should be able to find a way to make that case without sacrificing our core values (such as, obviously, an opposition to the racism embodied in the confederate flag).

[DaveinMD]

62. exactly

and completely agree with the major point.

[JohnKleeb]

78. thats what I was trying to say apparently I got criticized for it

See if Dean had said I want to be the candidiate of poor southern rural whites, I bet you he would have not gotten criticized, the confederate flag is a very divisive issue and it is racist as anything, the KKK has always used it in their marches.

[AP]

81. I think Dean wasn't doing this accidentally. There were several times

during the primaries when Dean talked about race and he always would position himself as seeing race through the eyes of a white man. Of course, that the truth of it. But the point of trying to be a good president is that you try to appreciate your consituents' perspectives on the word.

To recap the times when Dean did this:

(1) Dean said that he wanted to be the candidate FOR the confederate flag waiving southerner. Dean had spent a lot of time hugging the line on this objectionable statement. For months he woudl say that the Democratic party should stop trying to appeal to those voters, but it was implied that he meant that the party should try to show them how current Democratic policies are better for them than Republican policies. When he said he wanted to be the candidate FOR those people, it sounded like he was saying he wanted to represent their interests and their right to waive that flag.

(2) his analogy about race discrimination was about anti-(white) male discrimination in his office.

(3) He said that it was Edwards, not Sharpton, who gave him perspective on the flag comment, after both had taken their turn in the debate trying to explain it to him.

Dean is not dumb. The consistency of this message (I will look at racism as it affects white men) could not have been an accident. The only unanswered question I have about this is, "Was this smart strategy?" How many votes did Dean think he was going to get by doing that? Did he think the black vote was that secure?

[madfloridian]

82. Ready, aim, fire.

Wow, you guys are really angry. I deleted the post so you can all take a deep cleansing breath, stop the hatred, and just relax.

[DaveinMD]

83. the only one's who are angry

are the folks who keep saying that Howard Dean is the only good Democrat.

[AP]

84. I'm not anrgy. I'm fascinated. It's really interesting to go back over the

whole thing and to try to unravel it, or put together the pieces of the puzzle, or whatever metaphor you want to use.

[AP]

64. The way Dean said that Edwards changed Dean's mind about it was a little

wierd since it was Sharpton who gave him the black man's perspective and Edwards who gave him the white man's perspective on it.

I don't doubt that he related more to what Edwards was saying. But that was the problem.

He really didn't seem to get it from the black perspective and he went way out of his way to make that point when he was making amends for it.

[mzmolly]

71. Dean had more backing from the CBC than ANYONE running for the Presidency.

Tell "them" he didn't "get it." :shrug:

[AP]

75. That never made sense to me. But, look, I'm not trying to explain

anything other than all the wierd vibes I picked up from Dean on race, and I think they're all legitimate.

Regardless of the CBC endorsement, I think Dean was going to have trouble with black voters. I mean, not terrible troubled -- maybe 5% points of trouble. But when that's your base and you know it's going to be a tight election...

Perhaps -- and I'm just guessing -- maybe the CBC picked up on the same thing and thought that Dean was headed for the nomination and that they better give him some juice on the race issue or Bush was going to win. They might have been trying to patch a hole in a what looked like the likely nominee, rather than endorse the politician who seemed most likely to appreciate the issues confronting black America.

I'm just guessing here.

[madfloridian]

37. Self deleted.

.

[DaveinMD]

56. it offended

many African Americans I work with.

[AP]

68. What offended me was Dean's analogy for understanding race discrimination.

He said it many times. It was an analogy about anti-white male GENDER discrimination in his governor's office. And I thought that tied in in a really wierd way to his statement that it was Edwards who made him realize the confederate flag comment was ham-fisted.

It was like Dean was going out of his way to tell white people he was looking out for them.

If he thought that that was the way to win the election that's not only discouraging but I think it wasn't smart. Maybe that was his southern strategy, but it's not like a Dem is going to win the south by sending coded messages to black voters that he doesn't empathize.

[DaveinMD]

69. being in Vermont

didn't give him a great frame of reference on the issue.

[AP]

72. He had that story about asking for black roommates in college...

...but that probably wasn't a real winner of a story. He also worked in a predominantly black high school during his senior year, but the one thing I heard him say about that was, "being a teacher was too hard, so I didn't do it." Again, not a great anecdote.

[AP]

66. Who do you think Sharpton was speaking for when Sharpton explained

to Dean why it bothered him?

I'm not saying it's not possible, but do you think Sharpton was only speaking for himself?

[mandyky]

86. RE: Dean's Confederate flag comments

At the winter DNC meeting Dean said this -

<(Plenty of people of color jumped to their feet and gave the man a severe standing ovation) At least Dean addressed White folk in the South who _should_ be voting Dem instead of GOP. I understand the CF is painful to many African Americans, but get a grip and try to take his comments in the context they were meant. Discrimination is not just a race thing, it is gender, sexual preference and class related.[br />At least Dean gave real examples instead of _just_ pandering to one minority.]

(APPLAUSE)

I thought that one of the most despicable moments of this president's administration was three weeks ago, when on national prime-time television, he used the word ``quota'' seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas. It has never had quotas. Quotas is a race-loaded word, designed to appeal to people's fears of losing their jobs.

(APPLAUSE)

I intend to talk about race during this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? You know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too.

(APPLAUSE)

[madfloridian]

21. Saddest part is that he governed as a centrist...very moderate.

But he attacked party leaders, tried to change the status quo..That is not acceptable

[Quetzal]

22. Umm

found one error already

Rep. Robert Matsui (D-Hawaii), a Gephardt supporter and current chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, said Dean represented too much of a gamble for the party. “We need someone who is part of the Democratic establishment. Someone who is more of a known quantity. It’s extremely important that we don’t go through a debate about ideology.”

I am from Hawaii and I have never heard of this guy. I believe he is from California.

Oh yeah, it's about time we had some cajones and rolled the dice - there needs to be some deep structural changes within the party.

[Downtown Hound]

23. These House Dems just don't get it...

HEY HOUSE DEMS! YOUR MAINSTREAM STRATEGY HAS MADE YOU A BUNCH OF FUCKING LOSERS! WE NEED AN OPPOSITION PARTY AND WE NEED ONE NOW!

I'm never giving money to the DNC again until they change their strategy. Why waste it?

[DaveinMD]

28. yeah they don't get it

Howard Dean is the only Democrat. No other name will do. Every other Democrat is a traitor.

sarcasm now off.

[JohnKleeb]

31. and it actually seems like some house dems like Ambercrombie

and Langen agree.

[Downtown Hound]

38. Howard Dean IS the only Democrat

that stood up to Bush when it was most required. Every other Dem including Kerry was too concerned with their careers. The Dems have repeatedly lost Congressional elections or allowed presidential elections to be stolen from them. And yet they continue to pursue the same losing strategy of being more like Republicans. It's time for a new Democratic Party. If you don't agree, then fine. But the rest of us will continue to seek out leaders that represent us. And this current leadership isn't doing that.

[JohnKleeb]

43. The only one?

Kucinich and Pelosi were the ones who tried to stop his war resolution from passing in the house of representives, I am not saying Dean hasnt done anything but this belief that he is the ONLY democrat who stood up to Bush is pure nonsense. Kerry was one of the lone voices if I recall criticizing Bush for how he handled Tora Bora in Afghanstan, I heard no criticism from dean on that.

[Downtown Hound]

52. Point taken

Not the only one, but by far the most prominent. And it it was his energy that gave the Party as a whole the courage to criticize Bush again. Kucinich is a great guy and I love him, but his voice never had the impact Dean's had, and the same goes for Pelosi. I don't think Dean made the best presidential candidate, but I think he'd be a great leader for the party. And the truth is, I really don't care if it's Dean or someone else as long as they are willing to be a true opposition party and not thin-skinned cowards that are going to cave in to Bush all the time. And that seems to be what the party wants to do. And if they do, they're going to lose again and again.

[JohnKleeb]

57. yeah Kucinich didn't get on because the media always had Dean on

believe me Dean was far from alone. I think Dean best serves as a voice for us not a candidiate, I actually wouldn't have a problem with him as DNC head if he remains outspoken and can raise money.

[DaveinMD]

61. Dean wasn't prominent at the time

he was longshot until his opposition to the war allowed him to pick up steam. And the war is not the only issue. I was very upset that he never got around to talk about health care reform, which he did a great job in Vermont at.

[JohnKleeb]

65. thats true

His opposition to the war really did help him get press, he had far more press than Kucinich did. Of course war isn't the only issue, thats why i dont judge Kerry.

[DaveinMD]

67. and Kucinich

was so far to the left of Dean on the issue that he wasn't credible. Kucinich was just never a credible candidate.

[eridani]

94. Right. Just keep spewing the Rethug talking points.

The media decided, in the end, that Kerry wasn't 'credible' either, so what did we gain?

[mzmolly]

24. Self deleted too.

;)

[madfloridian]

34. self deleted

.

[mzmolly]

53. Nevamind.

...

[Robbien]

33. What do the Dems in the House know about mainstream?

Most of them rode on the backs of Progressives to their seats in the House hiding their true corporate faces behind a progressive platform.

[Telly Savalas]

45. There's nothing the American public likes better...

than the establishment and politics-as-usual. :eyes:

[Voltaire]

48. This is wonderful news

Fuck the Democratic Leadership. All they have led us to recently is into the fucking ditch. Their counsel I need....I think not.

I think this is great. If Dean runs for it, he will run from the outside and he will run from the front. There will be no one to outwork or outfox the Deaniacs this time!

We need a known quantity. . .that is just the most stupid non-republican thing I have heard all year!

[Clark2008]

70. I don't hate to see a post about Dean

but I still contend he would have done worse than Kerry (voting machine fraud aside). I just don't think Dean could appeal to any red-leaning states, at all. NRA endorsement or not.

That said, I think Dean would make an excellent DNC chairman and I'm hoping he gets it. He's certainly much better at recruiting and raising money than Terry McAwful. And Vilsak's just a hack.

[DaveinMD]

73. why is Vilsack just a hack

He's a good Dem Senator.

[Walt Starr]

74. Senator????

Try Governor.

[DaveinMD]

77. sorry

I mistyped. He was elected Governor after the stat had 12 years of Republican rule. That's impressive to me.

[NoPasaran]

79. Preemptively deleted

[madfloridian]

80. LOL

Good one. Boy, I bet I don't do that again! Is being pre-emptively deleted as bad as being pre-emptively invaded....as in Iraq?

Wow...such hatred for each other in this thread. Can't decide whether to laugh or cry. :silly:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

85. Why Do You Assume That Just Because People Disagree With You

They hate you? Or Dean?

:shrug:

In fact, the biggest portion of hate in this thread appears to be directed toward the Democratic Party.

DTH

[madfloridian]

87. I didn't assume either. I agree with you.

Please note that someone took this thread off into parts unknown. It had nothing to do with me or anything like that.

I think you are really upset with me over something when you should direct your anger elsewhere. I did NOT get the party in the shape it is in.

Where did I say the hatred was for us? It is a generic anger and hatred, and I was overwhelmed by it.

You can stay angry at me, or you can face some issues. I backed off the other thread because no one wants to admit the truth. That is not my problem.

:shrug: :shrug:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

89. I Apologize, If That's the Case Then I Misunderstood

But if you think *I* am angry at you, then maybe I didn't misunderstand after all. Because I'm not angry at you in the slightest. Why would you think that I am?

As for "the truth," that's just your POV. Obviously, many others disagree, including Howard Dean himself, and his campaign manager Joe Trippi.

DTH

[madfloridian]

90. You have made my point all day about the primaries.

You remember well, don't you. I am not angry. I don't think you are angry. I just think you are acting out the primaries all over again.

However, you need to read a certain book by Howard Dean before you believe Trippi. Trippi failed the campaign, knew what was going on and did not do his job.

Dean often admits he made mistakes. Can you? He stands firm on the way the party went after him. He does not back down on that.

I would have screamed, too.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

91. I've Got 50-Post Newbies Attacking My Guy

So yes, I'm going to defend him, especially when a member of my guy's family is present.

I'm not attacking Dean, I really like Dean now. That said, I believe in personal responsibility (unlike the Republicans), and I think it's fair to say that Dean made mistakes (and Clark certainly did too), and that it's hardly atypical for competing candidates to gang up against the frontrunner.

I actually have an autographed copy of the Dean book, so I'm not talking out of my ass. I just have a different perspective from you, is all.

You have a strong opinion, as do I. That doesn't make either of our opinions the TRVTH.

DTH

[JNelson6563]

95. Two good people here

We are allies here. I think highly of you both. We have the same situation too, passionate about our candidate and taking it from all sides. Let's work together.

Julie

[Mick Knox]

92. This response is deleted

*DELETED*

[madfloridian]

93. I just undeleted it.

Ooh, what you said.