I will probably be flamed for this but,

[Hawkeye Pierce]

I am having a problem with some of the posters here who are taking events like the execution and using it to condemn all of our troops. What people tend to forget is you can not judge an entire group by the actions of some. Liberals especially are supposed to know this. The simple fact is as in any group of people you have some that are sickos it is not unique to the millitary. Condem away the ones who are doing the wrong thing but, please no blanket statements there are thousands of our troops over there who only want this madness to end and come home. Thanks for listening to me and if you want to flame me fire away I can stand it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. who's slamming the troops?

nt

[Hawkeye Pierce]

6. the ones who are know who they are.

This is not inteded as a pissing contest I am just expressing how it upsets me when people do that and there are some on this board who are doing it as we speak.

[Dem_Loyalist]

55. The troops are never slammed here

I can't think of a single time Ive seen a negative thread about our military. I have family in the military and would never say anything bad about them. I'm sure nobody here would either.

[Qanisqineq]

57. then you haven't been paying attention

my husband is military and I take notice of these things.

[aquart]

2. Oh, dear.

[WilliamPitt]

3. There are a lot of bullshit artists, flame-baiters, fools and trolls here

After a while, you'll learn to recognize them and ignore them for the pitiful dipshits they are.

In the meantime, enjoy, and know that most of us stand shoulder to shoulder with you.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

28. Thanks

I just got a bit oversensitive.

[yardwork]

42. Listen to WilliamPitt!

If somebody posts something vicious and/or stupid here, it is entirely possible that they aren't really a Democrat. We have an infestation of poseurs and agent provacateurs on DU. Their sole purpose for being here is to post stupid shit in an effort to make Democrats look bad.

There are also a few Democrats who are a shame to the party, just as there are a few troops who behave badly.

[auburngrad82]

60. When you see something that looks out of place, look at the post count

of the person posting the message. If it's something outrageous or seems to be something designed to piss people off and the poster has a very low post count he may be a freeper and is just baiting us. Ignore them.

[johnnie]

4. I won't flame you

I haven't read all the posts on this situation, but I agree with you in the fact that not everyone over there can be judged on one person's actions. This whole friggin' war is crap and these kids shouldn't even be in the position to do what that punk did.

[BlueCaliDem]

5. I Honestly Haven't Seen Any...I *have* heard anger towards...

..the Bush administration for instigating the war in Iraq.
I don't think there's a liberal, or progressive alive who blame our troops for anything (maybe only, that they voted for Bush no matter what).
Any rate, you won't hear me, since my younger sister will head for Iraq at the end of this month.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

16. There are a couple

and like someone allready said they could just be trolls. I just needed to vent been a rough couple of days.

[yardwork]

43. Please hit the alert button (the small red arrow at the bottom left)

if a post looks inappropriate to you. It sends an alert message to the mods, who will take a look at the post. If it is a violation of DU rules it will be deleted.

[BlueCaliDem]

47. My Opinion Exactly, because for all the Right-Wingers Ear-Splitting Shouts

...about liberals not supporting the troops, I've had the dubious honor of debating them in Democratic forums on Compuserve, and AOL, and when I throw the ball at them--the "ball" being, that if they truly supported our troops, they'd want them HOME a.s.a.p. they suddenly turn on me like a pack of froth-snouted werewolves and blast the troops (and me as a "sympathizer" for "protectionism"--as if that's such a bad thing) by accusing them of wanting to get "freebies" like health care, and bonuses, and all that.
I guess not every human being's brain "evolved" from the Neanderthal era...they just ran and hid in the GOP!
That's why they can relate to Dubya. :7

[papau]

7. 99.99% of DU is very very pro-troops

but you will get flamed as the anti-war group - which is also very large - is just sick of this unnecessary war..

hang in there!

:-)

[Bluzmann57]

8. Agreed

In every group of disparate people, there are bound to be some bad apples, but to condemn an entire group because of the actions of a few is just wrong. It's nothing but stereotyping and is no different than putting down a particular race or lifestyle because of a few bad apples. So I guess if you're gonna get hammered, so am I.

[Zynx]

9. There are a lot of morons and irrational kooks here.

Don't listen to them. We rational Democrats support our troops.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

18. Just like any large group of people

you are bound to have a few nut cases. :)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

10. I agree

That kind of shit is what the Rethuglicans use to paint Democrats as "unpatriotic".

[Hawkeye Pierce]

14. and they are just as wrong

painting a whole group by the actions of a few. The only reason I even said anything is I am a bit sensitive with everything that is going on now. So bear with me everyone I know a huge majority of you folks have shown nothing but, support.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

11. I agree.

One misguided person brought his problems with him when he joined the services and now, we got what we got. That does not, in any manner, indict all of them on any point.

And what the kid from Bahstahn said is quite true. Read here with a discerning eye.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. Of course I don't condemn all the troops

and I still support them. My brother did two tours in 'Nam, and I supported him while protesting the war. You can do both.

What I don't understand is why officers don't talk to troops about how killing wounded people in mosques is counterproductive as well as against the the Geneva Convention.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

15. This is not meant as an attack

I saw a couple of posts that burned my ass and I just had to let it out.

[imenja]

13. I agree.

I agree with you John. Hatred is ugly, whether it's from the right or left. I certainly don't approve of war atrocities, but most of us have no idea what it is like to be in that situation. We are angry at the outcome of political election, and some people feel close to violence over that. Imagine if we had people shooting at us from around corners and inside buildings.
This war is unsound, a huge mistake. But it is Bush and the neo-cons who are to blame. Not our brave soldiers who risk everything.

[distantearlywarning]

17. I don't think that all the soldiers are like that.

When I start thinking that way, I remember the picture someone posted a few days ago of the young soldier with the cat. That picture is what keeps me from hating the troops when I hear these bad stories.

I read your initial post, J.J., and that also made me believe that not every soldier is like those in these stories that keep coming out. I also know that it must be very hard to keep on the right side of one's conscience when one is being shot at every day by the people you want to try to help.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. I don't know if you are referring to my thread, but I won't flame you

I understand that many of the troops don't want to be there. I understand that many are following orders...but I also think that given Abu Graib, this Marine, the one a few months back that did the same thing and some of the interviews that some of the troops have given the press where they express a desire to kill (and these were interviews with MSM) that the problem is much greater than you would allude to.

I am sure everyone wants to believe there are only a few bad apples, but these troops are there under the guise of very poor leadership...which leadership has justified torture, which leadership has justified a war for many reasons now (none of which match the reason they got for congressional approval).

I actually believe the problem is MORE widespread than we are hearing, and I DO fear for all of us when those that were anti-social, truly sick and didn't belong in the military come home after getting LOADS of target practice in Iraq.

2 of the worst crimes against Americans in recent history were committed by Timothy McVeigh and James Malvo...both made sure they took out as many people as they could. .. and when you think of it..they weren't in Iraq anywhere NEAR as long as some of these troops will be.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

22. I don't know either

I didn't pay attention to any of the names I could just be being overly sensitive right now a lot going on and it can really affect a guy.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. I hear you

and just so you know, I don't paint troops with a broad brush but much of what they are getting acclimated to over there DOES make me fear for how it will be for all of us when those that are poorly equipped to deal with it come home.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

27. ohh you had the thread

about returning troops I thought that was a legitemate concern. What I am talking about is a couple of folks were using blanket statements about all the troops RE the execution.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Plus I do believe leadership is poor there

Once they evacuated Fallujah, I recall articles immediately prior to the offensive where the place was pretty much declared a free fire zone regarding pretty much anyone who was left.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

20. Ok I am better now

sorry folks I just needed to vent a bit. Mods you can remove this if I caused any trouble.

[getoffmytrain]

21. In GD you

will find a large amount of anti-USoA soldier statements and plenty cheering on the "virtue of the freedom fighters". Generally, these are made by the same group of people. Fortunately, the ones calling for the deaths of US troops tend to be quickly deleted. However, why the posters who espouse this shit aren't banned is beyond me...piss on these jerks, they're a detriment to DU.

I've given up a few things in this war, more than I care to carry on about here... but if someone makes some blanket statement condemning troops to my face, I'll put my foot in their ass.

Good luck to you.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

24. Thanks

you people are great I am feeling a bit better now maybe I need to turn off the TV for awhile or just watch TV Land.

[Trajan]

23. Hey Johnny ? ...

Those posters are few and far between ....

Say your piece to them, straighten them out, then move on ....

Good to have you aboard ....

[Hawkeye Pierce]

25. good advice

but, I really didn't want to get in a pissing contest with them just wanted to vent. I couldn't even tell you who said it :)

[MichiganVote]

30. Its all ugly over there John. Some of it spills back to us.

One video does not a court case make. As far as I'm concerned until any one of us has spent day upon day in Iraq, in Fallujah, or in other hot areas, none of us are in a position to judge this event.

War is not like a police job. There are no Miranda rights. I don't support the war in Iraq but I do support the reality that these troops are often young, inexperienced, traumatized and under tremendous stress. There are probably countless video's that could be shot of this type on both sides.

To take this video at face value is, in my opinion, a mistake. To use it as a reason to boo all or even most of the American troops is bigotry.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

35. I agree

and thanks for being so fair minded.

[Green Mountain Dem]

41. Maybe it was me.....

I am not unpatriotic and I really feel bad for all of our armed forces involved in this insane war, but I WILL NOT support any deviations by any soldier when it comes to compliance with the Geneva Conventions...regardless of their orders!! The 5th Vermonter to die in this unwise exercise was my Godson, and I will never excuse, or accept, the reasons given by his Commander-in-Chief for his death. He was 29, and about to finish his tour and return to his passion, to teach special needs children. A terrible loss for all of us, and I can assure you that he NEVER would have violated any regulation that could be construed as a war crime.

[quaoar]

31. Sweeping generalizations

are all too common around here. Lately it has involved Christian and anyone who lives in a red state.

[demigoddess]

32. who slams the troops?? I slam the ****civilians who send them where they

are used as cannon fodder to support a stupid idea that democracy can be imposed on a country by force of a gun and picking their leaders for them.

[w13rd0]

33. I blame the chain of command...

...a culture of oppression and deception has been passed top down. I do try to "gel" these discoveries with the emerging fact that it seems a good number of our troops voted Kerry, and know that BushCo is bad.

[donheld]

34. I would not ever blame "all the troops"

We have roughly 150,000 over there so there's gotta be some bad apples. Anyway here's your flame
but for a nicer flame take this:
Flame-colored Tanager

[lastliberalintexas]

36. Sorry, but I can't

even condemn him individually. As I said on another thread, our soldiers have been put into an impossible situation by our idiotic leaders. Once he was in the service, he had 3 choices- do as he was told, come home in a pine box, or land his ass in military prison for refusing to follow orders.

I certainly would not want his family to face the second option. And since I'm not sitting in a jail myself for protesting this war (my taxes do help pay for this thing, after all), then I'm certainly not going to expect that of him. So many here pretend to have done all that can be done to prevent the war, all the while sitting in their nice cozy living rooms playing on their computers. I'm not condemning, as many here have done and continue to do a great deal to promote peace. But a great deal doesn't mean all. It does not mean the extreme personal sacrifice that many here have been demanding of this soldier.


And we have no idea what kinds of horrors he's seen and endured in his time over there, no idea the stress he's under, and no idea of whether he's still even sane. Please people- I am not defending what he did. But for the more self-righteous among us- I hope that you never have to find yourself in that kind of situation. I personally can't imagine what he and the others are going through.

So I'll still save my disgust for Bush and the repubs, their voters, and the "Dems" who voted in favor of this illegal invasion. And for this soldier, I'll hope for psych therapy.

on edit- grammar!

[MichiganVote]

38. Yup.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

40. you are right

we shouldn't jump to conclusions let all the facts come out first.

[renegade000]

37. why

should we flame you for being a voice of reason?

i agree with you 100%

i think the problem with a few posters here (assuming they're not trolls) is that they feel a need to counteract the uber-nationalism they see in their experiences with a form of uber-anti-nationalism.
:shrug:...i think that made sense...

[Hawkeye Pierce]

39. some folks get a little edgy when a FNG like myself

stirs up a bit a trouble so I expected a few folks to flame me. Thanks again for being so supportive. I may go hang around the lounge for a bit and try to find something to make me laugh.

[yardwork]

46. I recommend the Lounge when you are feeling down

Thank goodness for the Lounge. It got me through the weeks leading up to the election (and the weeks since then, come to think of it....)

[Spector]

48. John,

I know exactly how you feel. It seems lately that I open some of these threads and think, 'this place is anti-military' and it just isn't for me, but then I realize that I am making the same kind of generalizations that the 'anti-military' posters are making.

I do have to admit I have been dis-heartened by some of the statements on this site, but then I find threads like this with a lot of great people who really understand and care about our troops.

Thanks guys,

Keep the Faith...

[RamboLiberal]

44. I agree with you - I get pissed at some of the actions of "some"

of our troops like the incident of "mercy killings" being discussed.

But I'd like to go on record here as saying we have for the most part very fine people in our military. And as much as possible the most humane military.

And if people would note when found out these guys are coming up on charges.

I think some of what is happening in the field is caused by a few bad apples. By lack of top-down command. By the conditions these troops have been put in. By many of the tactics of the enemy (like booby-trapped bodies). Etc.

It's a shame * and company put them in this hell-hole. War is hell and this kind of thing has happened in all wars on all sides.

I'd like to think it happened much less on the sides of U.S. and U.K. troops simply because we hold our military to a high standard of justice.

Unfortunately I think the * administration has set a bad precedent as well for many in the military that is fostering this kind of attitude from the top-down.

And I do get pissed at DU'ers who act like U.S. military equal Nazis, Japanese in WWII atrocities, etc.

[seabeyond]

45. jj hasnt it gone too far

is there anyway we cna have sanity in where it all is. how the leaders are allowing this to feed and boil. do the soldiers, even the soldiers that try to walk the military honor in war kinda dance, hasnt that gone a bit out the window.

i only blame the individual troop because, the did it, but in essence i blame the people running this war

have a child that is out of control and mis behaves, i blame and punish the child, but it is the parent that allowed. they get the harshest of the critizism.

religion, all those fundies living in hate and anger now, i blame them in that they bought the story, but the greater sin, is the leader, their minister that fed them the garbage. they have a huge responsibility in their power, and they let their followers down

nothing good can come out of this anymore. it is lost. lost in integrity and honor and honesty. no one will be helped here, from here on out

[Anarcho-Socialist]

49. I think the majority of anti-troops posts come from trolls

At least, the few ones I've seen

[leesa]

50. Sure. As long as you in return don't expect us to worship troops simply

because they are troops. There appear to be an awful lot of sick MoFo's out there.

We, of course, know not all soldiers are bad. It's annoying that people seem to keep needing to point this out.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

51. no where have I asked anyone to worship the troops

all I ask is that people here in the states realize what they are going through.

[eleny]

56. Just remember this...

Some people come here specifically to make trouble. It's a known fact and we try to keep our antennae up for them. Some even try to blend in. A few did this before the election. When the election was over, they revealed themselves and made fun of DU for being gullible. Some people need a life!

So, as someone suggested, hit the alert button. If it feels off notch, it may very well be. Meantime, we're taking all this one day at a time, together.

[Catherine Vincent]

52. I support the troops but I DO NOT SUPPORT THIS PRESIDENT!

WILL NOT! EVER!

[angrydemocrat]

53. Its not the troops fault

They are just following orders. You have to blame the camander in cheif not the troops. Sometimes I think some people are venting and go overboard and don't always mean it the way it comes out while you do have a few that will blame anyone. But also every now and then you have a officer that goes overboard such as the one that was shown today shooting an Iraqi when there was no need to. But you can't blame all troops for the actions of a few.

[Thothmaninoff]

58. Bush & those who voted for IWR are the most responsible

We are all complicit as a society, in that our tax dollars, votes (not everyone here, thankfully), and dollars fed to any corporations that push for right wing control of the government, all have nurtured the current situation. There are socioeconomic conditions that have pushed people into the military, and prevent many within from speaking out or disobeying. There are some bad apples, but most are people who just want to do their jobs and keep them. Responsibility increases as you go up the chain of command, all the way up to Bush and those who gave him his mandate.

I don't like the idea that anyone who strongly supports liberal ideas and despises the fascists in power should fear being flamed, no matter the subject, but I will risk saying this because I feel it is important.

If any lesson was learned from the Nuremburg trials after WWII, it's that "just following orders" is not an excuse under any conditions. Whether you believe that this invasion is a crime against the peace or not, clearly some very nasty things have happened, and clearly Geneva conventions have been violated. It is absurd to claim that the violators do not include those who ultimately use weapons to destroy and kill, regardless of who told them to do so. The most important thing is to bring the troops home, help them recover and heal, and stop the damage being done to what we have made into a third world country over the past 15 years.

[BlueManDude]

54. the troops are in an impossible position

most of realize these men and women are performing their jobs to the best of their abilities.

[Jasper 91]

59. I hope you are not talking about me

Here's my thread, and nowhere do I nor any of the other posters condemn the troops en masse. There was nothing inflammatory in my words or tone. I reported what I saw on the news because I didn't think your right-wing media would let you know what was going on.

Am I now 'John Kerry', to be reviled for what I saw and related?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1358344&mesg_id=1358344

[Minimus]

61. I only have condemnation for the CiC and his minions. . .

Where are the leaders? Oh, I guess they did their duty by brainwashing the troops and feeding them bullshit. Now the "leaders" can just sit back and watch as the lives of the "enemy" are destroyed as well as the lives of our soldiers.

The troops that finally make it home alive will then have to live with themselves after their brainwashing has worn off.

It is a horrible situation and I condemn bush and anybody responsible for this needless war.