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liberal democrat Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:29 PM
Original message
Christian Nation??????!!!!!!!!
I'm getting scared. I was lurking at www.ronaldreagan.com and found this thread:

http://www.ronaldreagan.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/ubb/get_...

Some guy named "NeoKahn" wrote:

The separation of church and state has never been a part of the Constitution.

I'm more interested in any documentation to support the fact that our founders believed that this would always be a Christian country...

I'm starting to think NeoNazi is a more appropriate title. These Freepers really rule this land. I am scared that they are going to start a christian fundamentalist movement. After all, Ann Coulter even said we should invade countries and convert muslims into christians. WHY HAS AMERICA BEEN HIJACKED BY THE FREEEEEPERRRS?!!!
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. And it doesn't matter how many times I confront my fundie..
acquaintances with the facts refuting this ... using the Treaty of Tripoli and the Letter to the Danbury Baptists (for example) .. they get a Stepford-wife-look in their eyes and say, "We are Judeo-Christian nation ... "

I give up.

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liberalequestrian Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. I've given up too
I tried for ages to explain the difference of church and state to a friend... WHY gay marriage and abortion should not be issues that you use RELIGIOUS biblical sayings to not support- how in the United States there SHOULD be a sep. and that our leaders should not be deciding these issues based on their religion... yada yada yada. It all went over her head, she went back to quoting the Bible and yammering about sinning. I guess loving thy neighbor and tolerance aren't Christian values anymore. (but pre-emptive war is?!?!)
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Pig_Latin_Lover Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not in the Constitution, but...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:34 PM by Pig_Latin_Lover
The separation of church and state has never been a part of the Constitution.

Jesus did happen to say, Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are Gods. Jesus was the one that separated Christianity from any state.

Anyone who truly understands Jesus should understand that belief in him transcends any state of any nation, and that it is up to the individual to establish his or her own personal relationship to God. It is not for the state to establish.

Jesus laid down no laws for people that could be enforced on this earth, only after death. Bush, and those that claim God is on his side, have broken quite a few of those laws. :)
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Founding Fathers intended no such thing
They were all Freemasons, and primarily Deists. George Washinton never said the word God in any of his speeches, leading a journalist to ask him point blank if he believed, and he side-stepped the question! Thomas Jefferson actually went through a bible once, and cut out all of the miracle stories. Check these people out:

Americans United for Seperation of Church and State.

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer
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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Thomas Jefferson called the Book of Revelation "the ravings of a maniac".
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progdonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. "Like extracting a diamond from a dung heap."
That was how he described in a letter the process of putting together the so-called "Jefferson Bible."
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CHICKEN CAPITOL USA Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here's 2 links you can throw at anyone who says this is a Christian Nation
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:46 PM by CHICKEN CAPITOL USA
The Founding Fathers were NOT Christians !!!
Well what were they? you ask

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc /

http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. These links rock!
Thank you!
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is a HUGE thing with fundies. See here, where they dispel "myths":
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:46 PM by tjdee
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php...

Where they claim that the founders, particularly Jefferson, were not necessarily interested in separation of church and state,

and here, where they assert that many of the founders were Christians, not deists, and that half of them were ordained ministers (??????).
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php...

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liberal democrat Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes
But I can't educate these fools because they booted me. They actually started a whole thread laughing at me. They just do not want to hear the truth.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I call bullshit
There isn't a single shred of backup. No footnotes, no context, nothing. I find this sort of thing typical among rabid fundies: "Proof? Who needs proof? Just believe!"

Hmm...come to think, it sounds just like their pResident.
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Indeed--I should've said "dispel 'myths'".
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't care whether it's 'in the constitution' or not...
These dark age fantasy worlders should keep their silly 'big daddy in the sky crap' out of my life. Go bow before some god all you want, but don't include me in your infantile buggering.
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retrorich Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
35. Amen, Brother!
Religion belongs in the homes, churches and personal lives of the religious--not in public schools or the government. I do not wish to live in a theocracy.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Hi retrorich!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
43. Could not agree more!
Believe in the 'big daddy in the sky crap' all you want, just don't shove in my face and down my throat! I am sick and tired of this religious BS!
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liberal democrat Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. It gets worse.
The next moron posted this message:

"I wasn't clear that I understood your question the first round.

Regardless, I don't think you need documentation for that, this is a Christian country:

Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.) reference

Since the 'Separation of Church & State' is and has been largely sculpted by the decisions of courts, this becomes a legal arguement far beyond what I could be of much use for. "

As a Jew, should I consider leaving this nation?
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Pig_Latin_Lover Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. What a breakdown
"Protestant 52%"

So, the Southern Baptists, the Lutherans, the Methodists, and the... whatever else... are all lumped into that 52% as if they're all one big consortium wishing to impose Christianity onto the United States.

More Mormons than Jews? I find that hard to believe.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
41. And they don't consider Catholics to be Christians
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. So..are we a Female Nation?
Since females are in the majority? Cool.

And do they know Jesus wasn't Christian? Though rumor has it he was Christlike, would a Jewish liberal like Jesus fit in their world?

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CHICKEN CAPITOL USA Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. the constitution is to protect the "minority" from the "majority"
Alot of these idiot seem to think that Democracy means "majority rules"--
this is becoming very popular ideology.
Go back to the Pre-Civil War South--thaaaa majority thought slavery was fine-did that fact make it ok?
The majority at one time thought women should have no rights--did that make it a "truth"?

Progressives here at DU for the most part already understand this-
We need to spread the word-
Majority does not rule.
not in a Democracy--freedom of choice is manditory in a Free Society,
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. I would question the source of those stats.
They don't seem quite right to me, and besides why do the other groups not get to have an opinion?

Besides, there are tens of thousands of different kinds of Protestant, and they agree on very little from one side of the spectrum to the other. Which group gets to make the decisions?

Because, from where I'm sitting, it seems like an extreme minority of far right-wingers. By this person's own argument, this group shouldn't get a say in policy.
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. Jewish 1%? BS
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Recommended reading: FREETHINKERS, forgot author
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. And this is why they love the 'strict constructionist' approach...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 11:06 PM by mcscajun
...because all of the material supporting the separation of church and state is in the founders' ancillary writings, personal papers, correspondence, etc.

The phrase doesn't appear in the Constitution...so for the fundies...it simply isn't anything they need to believe.

Research? Original intent? The founders as Deists? All beyond them. Belief is all...facts are irrelevant.

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liberalequestrian Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
30. I've found that too
You can present every fact to them in the world... all that you just listed, common sense, live and let live... until you are blue in the face, but they never listen... the only fact that matters to them (in the cases I have experienced) is that THEIR church/Bible/beliefs say that <insert cause- abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research> is wrong, and it doesn't matter that others do not believe as they do, they ONLY care that that is how THEY believe.

Their was a letter in the LA Times a week or so ago, about how this election was about MY religion, MY beliefs, MY life, MY everything. Very interesting to think about, and IMHO, not far off base.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. Hi mcscajun!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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NEDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. Anyone else just finish watching CNN Presents?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 11:08 PM by NEDem
Hearing that little girl ramble on about how she was a sinner was sad. She said she was 'born again' a 3. I have a 3 year old, he may be a brat sometimes, but he's certainly no sinner. That poor little girl.

That special and the many years I've spent reading about these guys, has got me a little bit worried for my family's safety. What are these zealots capable of?
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liberal democrat Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Can you say
I wish we lived in a secular nation?
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NEDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. No,
I have no problem with people worshiping the higher power of their choice. I think if Religion makes people feel better about themselves, their life and their surroundings then thats great.

It worries me that one group has so much hatred for all other beliefs.

As one of those people in their crosshairs I'm getting a more and more worried.
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dethl Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Does the girl have 2 belly buttons now?
:P n/t
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. Welcome to the future.
I'm seriously thinking about leaving...seriously. I don't see any way of avoiding what is coming. The latest move to go from a progress to tax to a VAT or a flat tax is tithing. They believe it is the only tax the Bible allows. Also, a bill is making its way through congress that make it impossible for a court to challenge any law with the word "God" in it. The Bible they believe is above the law because it is the word of God.

They are very well organized, and well funded. They have a mass of people who are completely brainwashed.

All of this reminds me when your losing in SimCity and churches spring up everywhere.
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purduejake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I am thinking of leaving too...
I'm gay and I think we're the first people on their list to take care of with women, blacks, and atheists right behind us. The fight is certainly not over and I will be fighting right beside the rest of you, but the moment they make it illegal for me to have uh.. relations with a partner, I'm outta here. What we need is major election reform and I don't see that happening when it benefits the party in power. Nevertheless, my efforts will be focused on destroying the diebold machines. The rest of our progress doesn't matter so long as those machines are in place.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
38. Hi purduejake!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. Fundies confuse Founding Fathers with the Pilgrims
Bush does it too. That's how much they know about history. When they talk about Founding Fathers they are imagining Goody Proctor and the stocks and Thanksgiving.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. Even the Supreme Court recognizes the concept of "Separation of Church and
State". It showed up in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Church or something like that. The term "Separation of Church and Sate" is widely recognized by most government officials and Judges. No, it's not in the Constitution but everyone with a brain knows the basic concept is in the constitution.

In James Madison's summary of the First Amendment he wrote: Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731).

Basicaly what this means is "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE"!!!!!!!!
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. The Treaty of Tripoli - US Gov. not in ANY sense, founded on the Christian
Religion.

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president).

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

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progdonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
26. If the Founding Fathers were such great Christians...
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 01:04 AM by progdonkey
why does the Constitution, which would've set out the first Christian Democracy, never once mention Jesus Christ? I may be wrong, but I don't think it even mentions God or even "the Almighty." The Declaration references "their Creator," but that could refer just as well to Mother Nature as to Jehovah (I doubt Jefferson intended that... /sarcasm/).

The Constitution begins "We the People," not "In the sight of the Almighty God and the Lord Jesus Christ, we the people...."

The Religious Right loves to say that the phrase "Separation of Church and State" never appears in the Constitution. I'd like them to show me where the word "Trinity" or phrase "Holy Trinity" appears in the Bible!
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liberalequestrian Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Also,
didn't many Americans come to this country to escape religious oppression. I suppose we aren't exactly oppressing a religion so to speak, but by legislating "Christian values" aren't we forcing them on the minority of Americans who do not believe in those values?

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
42. And why doesn't it have the 10 commandments? the Lord's Prayer?
The Sacraments? Mention the Bible? That the country was founded on Christian beliefs?
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consciousobjector Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
32. The fundajudgementalists are trying to bring on the second coming
They are trying to fulfill prophecy so that Jesus will return and take them to heaven. That is why they need to refute the separation of church and state. In the end times the world is supposed to have one worldwide religion that worships "the beast". With the protection of the separation of church/state doctrine this cannot happen in America, so they have to put an end to it....my dad must be rolling in his grave - he was a dyed in the wool republican and he left the "Americans united for the separation of church and state" 1/3 of his estate when he passed away (he left another 1/3 to a televangelist) :crazy:
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
34. you're right, but you can't win

The "Christian Nation" stuff is a pretty perfect illustration of what Richard Dawkins call a 'meme'. There's very tenuous evidence to support it and a psychological need for it to be true, and a desire for it to be true, and less-than-absolute disproof. The psychological need and desire for it keeps it in circulation.

Someone coined the term "Settler Judaism" as the ideological label for the Israeli crazies out to dispossess the Palestinians of the West Bank under the color of religion.

This is "Settler Christianity". Part of the game of legitimizing crimes perpetrated by an ideological group is by showing historical authenticity/continuity/identity with groups that are considered beyond judgment/criticism. That's what the effort is about.

But even if they fail, as they must, remember that Christian Nation is an ideological idea they have about the future more than the past.

Personally, my considered opinion of the Christian Nation bit is that it lowers the standard of justice and perverts government. That's an argument I've never seen them be able to mount a counter to.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
40. Time for the REAL Christians to stand up and save this country
form the folk who have perverted the message. And we welcome all help from other branches of the spiritual left, as well as agnostics, atheists, and anti-theists.

Together we outnumber the rigid RW reactionaries. Let's use our majority power!

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com /
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
44. America was founded on commercial beliefs!!
The rulers of England, Spain, and France were not interested in spreading their religion. They were primarily interested in gaining wealth!!

The United States was founded on the belief that we should not be taxed without representation. That included being forced to pay assessment fees to the Church of England and to the state churches especially those that did not attend THE church or any church.


America and the United States are two different places. The United States was founded in 1788 with the creation of the Constitution as a result of the Revolution.

America was a group of colonies under control of various countries. Not a country.. not a nation. The United States of America is a country.. a nation.
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