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Dirty Hippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:55 PM
Original message
Heard an interesting take on the abortion issue
A nun on Bill Moyer's NOW (on PBS) said in essence, "How can you be pro-life when you you are against policies to help feed, cloth and educate children? This is not pro-life, it is pro-birth."

I think we should challenge pro-lifers. Are they pro-life or just pro-birth?

Call them on their hypocrisy!


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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Also that the Iraq War was "Military Abortion" because it killed
killed pregnant women who are part of the civilian population.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. Any premature ending of a life is an abortion.
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 06:17 PM by MissMarple
I looked it up in my unabridged dictionary. Honest to God.

And regarding the war dead, I would definitely call their deaths a premature end.
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Tony_FLADEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. pro-lifers use the abortion issue to be self-righteous
They like the vanity of the "pro-life" label.
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. Why not use "respect for life" rather than pro-choice?
That means you respect all life, including the life of the mother, as well as the lives of women and children that are being killed in an occupation of their country. Progressives want to reduce abortions by providing adequate healthcare for mothers and unborn children and by providing jobs and adequate wages for families so that they don't opt out of parenthood because they can't afford to take care of a child.

Anyone that would deny a woman a medical procedure that will save her life just because they don't want the baby aborted has no respect for the mother's life.

My sister-in-law had to have an abortion because there was no sign of life from the baby. After about 5 days they decided to take the baby. Should she have been required to carry the baby to full term, even though the baby's body would have just decomposed inside her and caused an infection that would likely have killed her? Do you put politics over her life?

It's as hard to argue against respect for life as it is to argue against pro-life.
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mairceridwen Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. they're pro
get the dang hell outter yer mama's tummy so she can raise yer and we kin send yer over to fight for oil YEEEHAW!!!!!!
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Every big Anti-Choice organization...
Has an arm that is dedicated to adoption. Now, that is good, right? Sure, but...

Abortion is big business and the biggest business is blonde, blue-eyed babies. They knock down the big bucks.

There is no shortage of minority babies available in the US, but people go to Europe(like the eastern bloc nations) for blondies. And pay big bucks. $150000-$200000.
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mairceridwen Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. plus
no one ever questions whether or not adoption is all that moral. I mean, is it not immoral to bring life into this world and then hand it over. how does one know what kind of people: axe murderers, pedophiles, freepers might be raising your child?

i mean, adoption isn't going to go away, but no one ever questions its dark side.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. C'mon
adoption can be improved but please, it's a hundred times preferable to abortion and less your way out there.
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. That's what I've been saying for years.
I tell my Catholic conservative classmates that the supposedly "pro-life" politicans they are voting for also vote against programs to provide aid for low-income families, who make up the majority of women who have abortions.

They don't listen. It's very frustrating.
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I also like to
point out that these same fundamentalist Christians are anti-Catholic. Sure, there is common ground on abortion, but if you give them power based on that, then it's likely to bite the church in the arse later.
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I know about that kind of stuff, too,
but these aren't the smsartest people I'm talking to. They can't think in such a complex way. They're of the brainwashed "pResident boosh luvs us" crowd.

Blah...I'm outta here in six months, off to a nice liberal college. :)
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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. You could also tell them
the number of abortions has drastically increased during Bush's presidency.
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I've tried that, but it becomes pointless
when they just blame it on the women who get abortions.

"They should just find a job and live with the consequences of their actions. It's not pResident boosh's fault."

I promise you, this is high-level thinking for girls who come from families making well over seven digit incomes. Most of their political information comes from their millionaire daddies. The only reason I'm at this school is because my dad works three jobs, one of which gets us a big discount at my school.
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. As a pro-life liberal
I've always felt that abortion is never be adequately dealt with unless you deal with the whole range of issues involving abortion. Right-wingers will dismiss such arguments as making excuses in order to kill the unborn, but I think it's just being pragmatic. This of course excludes partial-birth abortion, which there is NO excuse for, save for the life of the mother. I think there are indeed many people who are committed to preserving the unborn, yet when they're born, they don't give a damn. I agree, we could call them pro-birth, or pro-unborn, or simply anti-abortion (instead of pro-life.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I simply call them
anti-choice. They want to wage war on the choices we are all faced with--they really don't give a good damn on anything but trying to control what the rest of us want to do.
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mairceridwen Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. there is no such thing as a partial birth abortion
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:25 PM by mairceridwen
that is a right wing political crap phrase that has no parallel to any medical procedure. it's part of the whole, let's errode the rights of women just enough by using langauge that also refers to 2nd trimester procedures but remain vague enough to ensure our hold on abortion as a wedge issue.


If all women had access to a safe, legal, inexpensive first or early second term abortion, the whole third trimester thing wouldn't be an issue. as it happens, third term abortions are incredibly rare. check plannedparenthood or naral for the stats.


And of course, there is the whole point that making abortion illegal doesn't do much to stop its occurance, in which case women get abortions in unsanitary and dangersous conditions. Way to be prolife.
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choicevoice Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. not only are 3rd trimester abortions rare but they are NOT elective
Life of the mother or fetal anomolies are usually the reason for late term D&X (partial birth abortion). Also the availability of a doctor who can perform a late term procedure is small.
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Does anyone have actual numbers
regarding late term abortions?

I've always found it hard to believe that a woman would carry a child to term and then just change her mind.
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choicevoice Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Latest statistics can be found at
the Guttmacher Institute.
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laheina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Thanks!!
While I didn't find exact numbers for late term abortions, some 90% occur in the first trimester. We can infer, if this trend continues, that there would be very few done in the final trimester; however, I'm still in search of numbers. I'll report back.

p.s. Another thing that I noticed was that more than 50% were poor and low income. Who's always complaining of class warfare?! Geez.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. Do You Really Believe Life Begins At Conception?
I hope that since you seem to be truly pro-life you won't take offense to this, but I am curious and always wanted to ask a liberal pro-lifer because I know they would at least be reasonable.

If you really believe life begins at conception, should we investigate miscarriages to determine if it was a homicide? It is well known many pregnancies end in miscarriage and often it is completely natural. But is it always? Should we investigate whether the actions of the woman or her doctor or some one else triggered this "spontaneous abortion" resulting in the death of the unborn child by early expulsion from the uterus.

We all know pregnant women should not smoke or drink alcohol. If a woman does, can she be charged with passing these substances to a minor? What if she just eats a really crappy diet of too much junk food and caffeinated beverages and it causes her child to be born developmentally impaired. Should we charge her? Perhaps I am being ridiculous, but we started suing the tobacco companies and have moved on to suing McDonald's in cases not related to unborn children.

You believe there should be exceptions if the life of the mother is in danger. What about the health. How much of a threat to her health? If a woman is pregnant and diagnosed with cancer should she be allowed an abortion to have chemotherapy or should she have to carry the child to term and then begin the treatment? Who makes that decision? For that matter, do you mean physical health or mental health too? What if she is on anti-depressive or even anti-psychotic drugs, should she have to stop taking these if she becomes pregnant because they could affect the baby?
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. These are all serious questions,
and you make a serious argument. To answer your question, yes, I do believe life begins at conception. I do realize, however, that the woman's womb is sacred, and should be regarded as such. I just think we need to enact policies that make abortions as rare as possible. As far as the health of the mother goes, I think if it becomes a serious medical issue, then we should consider the mother's wishes. As far as miscarriages or drinking and smoking effects go, I don't think one could call that murder, or fail to make an exception in that case. I don't think mother's deliberately aim to kill their unborn children.

Anyway, I'll have to consider this deeper, but I think reasonable people can agree that we need to reduce the number of abortions. I hate to sound like Bush in this case, but creating a "culture of life," (for real I mean) isn't such a bad thing.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Pro-Choice Want To Reduce Abortions Too

But, the question to ask them is - why? If you don't believe life begins at conception what is wrong with abortion that you should want to reduce it?

I admit I just don't know if life begins at conception or not and all the legal or scientific definitions and explanations don't provide any definitive answer. For that matter, the bible isn't all that clear either.

It drives me crazy that most people calling themselves pro-life are anti-birth control and as others here say "pro-birth" It makes total sense to me for a Liberal to be Pro-Life.
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Lone_Wolf_Moderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. I support birth control.
Birth control leads to less abortions. I agree that the question of life is at the heart of this discussion. I also agree that it's wrong to assume that pro-choicers are pro-abortion, as it also wrong to assume that pro-lifers are all anti-choice.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. The abortion rate has been rising since George has been in office.
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 06:35 PM by MissMarple
It was decreasing during the 90's, but with the down turn in the economy and the loss of jobs the rate has been increasing. I found this at the Sojourners website.

on edit:
Also this article:

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&i...

It's about when you're Christian, pro life, and progressive voting you conscience is hard to do.

I couldn't find the specific link to the abortion reference.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
39. You're Right, Lone Wolf...It's not "pro-life"...It's anti-abortion"...
...Plain and simple.
Strange that so-called pro-lifers are also pro-war, and pro-death penalty.
How can they correlate those and make sense out of it all??
I am personally anti-abortion, but pro-choice. One does not necessarily exclude the other.

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Justathought Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. This argument is
always disputed that the unborn fetus is not given a "choice" as to whether to live or die. As to supporting the death penalty, they had the "choice" not to murder. As to war, they had the "choice" not to sign up when they knew they may have to go to war. I tried to argue that at times a woman was not given a "choice" as in the instance of rape, but it flies right over their heads. They are focused on basically one thing....the rights of the fetus and this precludes any argument over the rights of the woman who may not have intended for the pregnancy to occur. When she becomes pregnant she forfeits all her rights.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Their Argument Supports What I say...
... that they are not "pro-life". They are anti-abortion, pro-vengeance, pro-aggression.

always disputed that the unborn fetus is not given a "choice" as to whether to live or die.

So their answer to that is to take away a grown woman's choice over her own body, eh? Unless they're willing to take full responsibility for the child, and stand by it up until it's 18 years of age in all ways that a parent would, they need to keep their mouths shut, and butt out.
A woman's body is NOT stock market commodity, and they're NOT shareholders of her, period.

As to supporting the death penalty, they had the "choice" not to murder.

Likewise, we have a choice not to use our shoddy legal system to murder for revenge, because to me, the death penalty is just that: murder, out of revenge.
It serves no other purpose than to get revenge, because it can't bring back the victim. It doesn't even offer any amount of "closure" as families who have lost a loved one through murder, attest after the perp is fried.
Life in an American prison is hell on earth--and cheaper on the taxpayers! For a country that has the most people of it's populace practicing religion, it's a glaring contridiction that we still have the death penalty in these modern times.

As to war, they had the "choice" not to sign up when they knew they may have to go to war.

True. But does that then excuse so-called pro-lifers for being all gung-ho about it?? What is that all about?? Nurture the seed and throw the fruit to the wolves?? Honestly, this twisted logic just eludes me...

Summing it all up...does the word "hypocrite" come to mind?
It does to me.
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choicevoice Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is not a new argument for those of us who have been fighting
this for years. Here is how the argument goes.

The answer they will give to your original argument about being against policies that help feed, clothes and educate children they answer: But our church does help them and god will provide. They will never get specific.

When they say there are so many people who want to love a child.
Our answer: There are in excess of 500,000 children out there now in foster homes, etc who need love and a home right now in America alone, plus around the world there are children in dire straights.
Them: But they want babies to raise.
Our answer: Then they are selfish. They don't really care about "children" they just want a baby.
Them: If a woman is pregnant why not just carry it to term and put it up for adoption?
Our Answer: So you want to FORCE a woman to breed so YOU can have a child? This makes that woman a brood mare for you. Putting a child up for adoption is not an easy decision.
Them: But abortion is murder and immoral.
Our answer: Murder is a legal term and according to the law abortio is not murder. IMMORAL is letting already born, breathing, sentient children live less than the life they could have if they had a home and someone to love them.

The message is that they want to FORCE WOMEN TO GESTATE AND GIVE BIRTH. Want to scare a woman? Tell her someone is going to FORCE her to BREED for their religious beliefs.


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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Part of the whole thing is
that it's still a male domination thing. I've said it for years--the chief problem is that men are still trying to control women, and this is the way they do it now.

Ever notice that it's MEN who are in charge of most of the anti-choice groups? If men would stay the fuck out of the equation, allow women to make the choices necessary for us to live our OWN lives, then there would be no political talk about abortion, adoption, birth control or any other issue that is simply a ploy to degrade us, to keep them on top. It's nothing but a control issue, regardless of how it's phrased.

Before any guys decide to flame me, this isn't ALL guys. You will notice that most of the time, it's the radical religious right--people like Falwell, Robertson, Randall Terry, and other misogynists who are compelled to keep their knees in our faces.
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Samurai_Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. I love my boyfriend's view on choice...
We just recently started dating, and of course we are asking all the serious questions about religion, politics, etc. He said, "You want know my opinion on abortion? When I can get pregnant, then I'll have an opinion."

I think he's a keeper. :)
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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. That's exactly
what I have been saying for years. They are only pro-birth. They really could care less what kind of life an unwanted child can lead. It's almost like they want to remain comfortably unaware of the reality of child abuse, poverty, child sexual abuse etc.

The other thing I was thinking...is if they force a woman who doesn't want her child to carry it to term and after the child is born it's beaten and raped before the age of seven....do they consider themselves an accessory?

If they're so concerned with "life" there are thousands of little girls as young as five being traded in the sex slave industry every day in Cambodia and Vietnam how about saving one of them?

Or rescuing one of the thousands of children that are homeless or in the foster care program here in the United States.

They get all sanctimonious on this subject about a life that hasn't even happened yet but don't mention the soldiers dying in Iraq.

The hypocrisy is sickening.

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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. They used language to promote an appeal to emotions and people
fell for it because it sounded so good to be supporting such a noble cause as "life". Then they defined "life" as a fertilized egg which of course is a matter of religious belief, but which is expected to be embraced by all, but forgot about the mother's life or the woman's life which then led to total disregard of the human being who by this time has been relegated to a nothing compared to a fertilized egg, and people bought it. and etc.
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ZombieNixon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. The one thing that strunk me when I saw Sister Joan (the nun)
is that she is a true Christian. I am pro-choice, but I cannot have anything but respect for a person who is staunchly pro-life in all senses of the term (anti-war esp.) She is against abortion, but recognizes that it must be left an option because of what is lacking in societal apparati. There are some real people of faith in this world, and I'm wagering that most of them are Democrats.
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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. She is a true Christian and a very impressive speaker.
I am also a Christian, but haven't found a church I can attend anymore because they are "Religionists" instead of Christians like Sister Joan.
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liberalequestrian Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I think that you made an important point
I hadn't exactly thought of that (in that way) before, but I too wish I could find a Church that has true Christians, instead of "religionists". How can you be pro-life yet for a war that has killed 100,000 Iraqi CITIZENS.... It puzzles me.
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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Welcome to DU, liberalequestrian!
:hi:

Pssst . . . I used to be an equestrian; still am a liberal.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. women like this nun
and others who are anti-death penalty and pro feeding and giving medical assistance to those who need it THEY'RE pro-life and while I disagree I can respect their position.

To be honest I think the stance that takes in the above and disagrees with ALL abortion (including incest and rape) makes more sense than those who beleive that it is killing a human but should be allowed (surely an odd thing to think) or that it's not killing if the biological father was a rapist? do we kill rapist's children now?
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BlueStateBlue Donating Member (470 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. The best argument I've ever heard
is that if the government has the power to say you cannot have an abortion, they could use the same power 10, 25, 50 years hence to say you MUST have an abortion.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Hi BlueStateBlue!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. What would happen if the govt adapted China's stance
and limited the number of children you could have? They are similar type issues. If one could happen, the other could happen as well.
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
30. Try this:
Right now abortions are not allowed in military hospitals. If a female US soldier were to be captured by Iraqis, raped by her captors, and then became pregnant, should she be required to carry the baby to term? If so, should the government take care of the baby? It is an American citizen, although a swarthy little one.

Or try this one:

Your 14-year old daughter is raped by a black man (don't flame me, guys. I'm trying to frame it for right-wingers and they're terrified of blacks and hispanics. Unless they vote GOP). She becomes pregnant. Would you allow her to abort the baby or would you require that she carry the baby to term and both her and you (as grandparents) would be reminded for the rest of her life of the rape?

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
43. This thread has been very informative!
  • "How can you be pro-life when you you are against policies to help feed, cloth and educate children? This is not pro-life, it is pro-birth."
  • Any premature ending of a life is an abortion.
  • pro-lifers use the abortion issue to be self-righteous. They like the vanity of the "pro-life" label.
  • Every big Anti-Choice organization has an arm that is dedicated to adoption. Now, that is good, right? Sure, but

    Abortion is big business and the biggest business is blonde, blue-eyed babies. They knock down the big bucks.

    There is no shortage of minority babies available in the US, but people go to Europe(like the eastern bloc nations) for blondies. And pay big bucks. $150000-$200000.
  • The number of abortions has drastically increased during Bush's presidency.
  • anti-choice/anti-freedom
  • If the government has the power to say you cannot have an abortion, they could use the same power 10, 25, 50 years hence to say you MUST have an abortion.
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