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Does anyone really think the election is going to be reversed for Kerry ?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:46 AM
Original message
Does anyone really think the election is going to be reversed for Kerry ?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 11:51 AM by kentuck
Nothing is going to change as far as the election goes. Even if fraud were proven, the election would not change. It's time to snap out of it. Come back to the real world. The reality is what it is. It is not going to change. I apologize if this depresses or offends anyone.
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dmac Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. i agree
you are probably right. however, if we do manage to prove fraud then at least those people with the high moral values we do not possess will have to admit they voted a cheater, a liar, and a thief to lead the world to whatever destiny awaits. small consolation.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. If Fraud Is Proven Then B/C Are Not Eligible For Office Of POTUS
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 12:52 PM by cryingshame
Also, all the votes haven't been counted.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #54
90. Gee, I didn't realize DU was under new management...
...when did you take over?
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. You are right BUT...
If fraud can be proven it may well destroy the bush cartel, or whatever one wants to call them. Even the Republicans couldn't really stand by bush and co. if it comes out that there was widespread cheating going on. Think Nixon in '72. I'm old enough to remember that, and nobody supported him. He won in a landslide and people were PISSED when they learned that they'd been had. This may be similar.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. possible but....
the Congress is different now than then...
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The Sad Little Pony Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. The KEY...
...is to only rely on 100% accurate info.
If we push unvetted innuendo, that is later proven to be false, the REAL proof on cheating will be lumped with the false, and therefore discredited.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
86. Old-timie repubes were different..
the crew in there now are much meaner and divisive. There are a lot more religious zealots in congress too.. they are on a mission from god..
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. You are correct, nothing will change,
and nothing will change my state-of-mind from totally disgusted! :thumbsdown:
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camby Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's not about winning back the election for Kerry
it's about ensuring the reliability of the voting apparatus in this country. If we don't force the issue, then we might as well forget about winning elections.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
48. I will say one thing in favor of looking for fraud. we need to have
a fair election. people need to be able to vote, and know that their vote counted, and was counted accurately. the presidential, and middterm elections need to be a national holiday. we need to use the same way to vote from coast to coast, and there needs to be a paper trail.

people waiting in line for 4 to 6 hours to vote is bullshit.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I think you should put that in the "Statement of Prinples" post...
After this election, it should be a national holiday. No one should have to stand in a line after a hard days work attempting to vote. This election has proved that, if nothing else.
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Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. You're totally & completely missing the point.
Our voting system is corrupt. Do you understand that? That means we'll never have an honest vote account EVER if we don't get it fixed. EVER Go ahead, sit back, close your eyes, cover your ears & sing "la, la, la, la" if you want, but some of us aren't ready to give up our country that easily.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. LOL!!!
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. I still say....
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:13 PM by kentuck
"Nothing is going to change as far as the election goes."

And my eyes are not closed. And neither is my mind. Do you think Kerry is going to be declared the winner? That is the point I was making. You read a mighty lot between the lines.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:53 AM
Original message
So?
Just lie back and enjoy it?

Your reality is the hobnail boot stepping on your face. Who needs it?

What? You think you've made a brilliant observation we all need to hear?

Yeah. You're offensive.
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AVID Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
8. I KNOW it won't be reversed
I also KNOW they cheated

Just like a JESUS freak KNOWS jesus listens to him

Actually, there's more data of a fraud than of jesus
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
9. If fraud were directly linked to BushCo...
...I would expect the election results to change, yes. Just expecting it wouldn't make it happen, though. We know what BushCo is capable of doing.

The odds of fraud being proven, especially in the short-term, seem awfully long. The odds of linking any monkey business to BushCo seem even longer.

But I don't think that's what this is about. Sure, it's in the back of our minds, but the real battle (should the suspicions we hold be proven) is for our rights as voters in future elections. It's a battle for the very soul or our nation.

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L84TEA Donating Member (668 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. I doubt it...but...
But I can't give up hope.
Because in the end we have nothing left.



"Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph."
--Thomas Paine, The American Crisis
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rmf Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. No apology needed...
I don't think anyone really believes that Kerry will be sitting in the oval office. I think most people here are looking at the bigger picture, namely not having to go through this again. We had four years to fix the system and nothing was done. The American people deserve better, don't ya think?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. I agree with what you say..
They had four years to fix the system and they "fixed" it good.
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TimeToGo Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
12. I don't think so
But -- I hope to


1. delegitimize *
2. try to get things right for 06 and 08
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cruadin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. I agree on looking forward to '06 and '08,
this is my first post, so I don't want to antagonize anyone, but expending ALL our energy on possible fraud in this election without working seriously to take back the Senate and House in the next election cycle is a mistake. It's fine to keep the spotlight on irregularities in certain states and to flush out any actual wrongdoing, but we have to be looking forward also.
Right now, Bush and the Republicans have the White House, the Senate and the House. Bush will almost certainly have Supreme Court vacancies in the next year or two. We have to take back the Senate in order to keep extremist Supreme Court appointments from sailing through a Republican controlled Senate. This morning Bill Frist, the Senate majority leader, was talking about altering the filibuster rules in judicial appointmets in order to WEAKEN the Democrats' already shaky position in controlling Court appointees. We can't allow our focus to be so distracted by the disappointments and frustrations of the election of '04 election that the Republicans are given a free hand moving forward.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #33
84. Hi cruadin!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Your statement is ill though out, Kentuck.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 12:04 PM by John Q. Citizen
Here why. You can't predict the future, even though you think you can.

If you you had said , in your opinion,it is improbable the results will change, I wouldn't call that stupid.

If Kerry had been called the winner, for all we know Bush might have declared marshal law and refused to leave. Who knows.

I do know that where they have found Bush votes that were erroneous they have adjusted the count accordingly.

If an investigator were to find a massive "mistake" that changed the results, the election might well go to Kerry. Then again, maybe not. Who knows?
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. KPFA Talking About OH Now
this guy thinks serious irregularities
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signmike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. Randall Patrick McMurphy
{Jack Nicholson) in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest", when he bet that he could pick up that water treatment apparatus and then failed said
"At least I tried, Goddamnit, At least I did that."
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. There's always hope, but what's happened to all the smoking guns?
Why is it that our smoking guns always turn out to be more fizzle than pop?

It's been, what, a week or so since Jeff whatever his name is in Florida said he had proof of not only who was involved in the fraud but how they did it. Well what happened to his proof? It's frustrating to keep hearing about fraud and then nothing being proven. It really is. Until something is proven, which I hope it is, we really do need to move on. If we don't move on, we'll get so far behind we'll never catch up.
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SoCalDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. I want to see massive arrests and prosecutions

I want to see arrests and prosecutions on a massive scale. That's the only way we can prevent future election fraud. This past election was disgusting, and our media and law enforcement are doing virtually nothing to ensure it doesn't happen again.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. Now that we know what we are fighting for....
we can put aside the illusions that John Kerry will be marching down Pennsylvania Ave on Jan 20th. Everyone is correct that what we are fighting for is the preservation of our electoral system. Why in the hell didn't we say that from the beginning instead of clinging to some false hope that Kerry will still be the President?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Because when the time is right
and I expect that will be soon, Kerry will be front and center.

Bush hasn't been elected anything yet. There is still time to change the outcome of the electoral college vote. There is also plenty of time between now and then for us to prove to the people that the fraud was rampant. The system was designed for fraud.

However, we do not have to prove anything. Once the counts are finished, it is up to George Bush to prove that he won this election fairly and legally.

The only way to answer that question will be when the recounts begin. Then expect the discrepancies to spread like small pox. Funny how all the discrepancies almost always favor Bush?

What we do know at this point, is that Bush will not be able to get the same numbers twice. All these fancy, expensive new systems were supposed to fix this problem. They told us over and over again, how reliable they were. Glenda Hood even claimed that they didn't make mistakes.

As it stands now, the State of FL and the County websites can't even agree on the count. I can't wait until they release the certified results tomorrow. Then we can crunch some real numbers.


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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I disagree...
I think Kerry has decided to fight from the Senate and will not pursue this at all....Just my opinion.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Only time will tell
If by the Electoral College, Kerry is not back in the middle of this, then I'm giving up on this country and the government entirely.

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SoCalDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. We need arrests and prosecutions

I want to see arrests and prosecutions on a massive scale. That's the only way we can prevent future election fraud. This past election was disgusting, and our media and law enforcement are doing virtually nothing to ensure it doesn't happen again.
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SoCalDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. Arrest and prosecute
I want to see arrests and prosecutions on a massive scale. That's the only way we can prevent future election fraud. This past election was disgusting, and our media and law enforcement are doing virtually nothing to ensure it doesn't happen again.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. If fair elections are the goal
Then this would be about audits, reviews, and fixes. There would be plenty of support from all sides.

This is about claims of a stolen election. The claims raise questions but offer no proof. Most of the questions are based on misunderstanding of statistics.

The sad thing is, that here was one time when the power of the net showed. Massive letter writing got the networks to cover this issue. The left came off looking like a bunch of kooks. That's where the left will have to start from the next time they try to get the networks to pay attention to an issue.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. You Are So Wrong It's Painful. The Only Reason We Look Like "Kooks"
is because the Media, GOP, and Democratic Punditry NEED for us to look like kooks.

What the hell else would the Media and GOP be saying, Hmmmm?

"Gee, those Democrats who want to 'audit,review and fix' sure are good citizens... let's do what they say"?

Do you REALLY believe that would ever happen?

There already IS a bill before Congress that would have ensured paper ballots in case of a recount... and the GOP sat on it.

IF there is an 'audit, review and fix' it'll because activists, mostly left-leaning, pushed the issue.

There is already TONS of evidence of voter intimidation, suppression and spoiled ballots in this past election. All of it planned before hand by the GOP.

Those tactics, in and of themselves are instances of Election FRAUD.

And there already is testimony of people standing for over 5 hours to vote. Making someone stand for over FOUR hours is considered a form of TORTURE.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Not if the you are looking for a easy fix
That's one of the reasons these ideas have so much power. They create the illusion that if enough letters are sent, that the world will will learn a new amazing fact that changes everything. Most of the time the fact that is supposed to fix everything isn't true.

You don't like lines? That's a state and county issue. It would need lots of work at the grass roots level. The national media can't solve it. Long lines aren't the same thing as fraud and people won't listen if you say that they are.

Voter intimidation surely is wrong, but I've seen no evidence to link it to a larger plan, other than how widespread it was. It would be nice to see an investigation into this, but that wasn't what has been called for in the media.

I monitor RW radio. Usually what they say scares me. I was suprised though, they are as worried about flawed elections as the left is. A grass roots effort for reform would probably work.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. You're right
But we have to prove election fraud (or problems) in order to get the reforms we need to have honest elections from here on out. It's our only hope of saving this country.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Let's all agree on your statement....
We are doing it in hopes of saving our country - not overthrowing the present regime, although that would be nice.....Unfortunately, in the present political reality, I cannot see that happening. But if people want to dream.....
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SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
62. I agree.
I don't believe the investigation will result in a Kerry presidency, but if it doesn't continue, there will be no point to voting in 06 and 08.

The electronic machines must either go or their programming and testing taken out of private hands. As the administration continues to foul up, as the Iraq toll rises and the dollar falls, people need to be constantly reminded that their vote didn't count. Proof of fraud will help fuel the anger that will feed the grassroots, even though it won't change the results.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. The inaccurate (if not fraudulent) results of this election will stand.
Kerry would not be able to govern effectively on a reversal when many people still believe that GWB received the majority of the popular vote. For that reason among others, GWB will remain in the WH.

Having said that, we MUST regain integrity in our national election process. We must fight this with a long-term outlook. I am not hoping for a reversal in the past election. I am hopeful that we can bring integrity back to the process for the long-term.
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magnolia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. Let's see....
You say: "Kerry would not be able to govern effectively on a reversal."

Do you mean that the right, who would not accept his legitimacy, would pound away at him for the next four years???? Bill Clinton did win legitimately and the right pounded away at him for eight years and look all he accomplished.

Ye of little faith! (I'm taking back the flag, patriotism and the Jesus of my childhood! These things do not belong to the right!)
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Point taken ...
Clinton did accomplish ... and * has destroyed. I withdraw my "govern effectively" assertion.
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dmac Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. Great . . . .
but since this fixing of elections has worked so well for the last 2 elections, what exactly, is going to motivate a Rep President, a Rep House and a Rep Senate to change a thing?
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TrustingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. you are absolutely right.
I see now that there is No Chance At All for the truth to come out. Both parties are in on this - it is just too dangerous to tell the american people that their votes don't count, otherwise they may not want to pay their taxes to a government they didn't elect.

This is just too big to expose.

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
30. Dunno. Let's count the votes,
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:04 PM by Karmadillo
search for fraud, and then see what happens. If it turns out Kerry actually won, I would think an awful lot of people will be willing to take to the streets to make sure he's the one taking the oath of office in January.
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UpsideDownFlag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
31. depends on if you ask the electorate, or Diebold. nt
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mom-mad-about-bush Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
32. I think it depends on whether we live in a democracy or not.
I'm not willing to give-up on truth and democracy. If fraud is proven then the election SHOULD change....the people of this country need to know that their votes count.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. Bush has got to go
I feel that this election fraud is the task that we must take care of immediatly because we have a timeline. But I don't think that any of us is really gonna just sit down and stop once that is done. Bush is ruining our country. Bush is ruining the world. He must be impeached. He is causing death and destruction throughout the world. He needs to be tried for war crimes.
Damned, I feel that we are trying to save the world and nobody knows it.
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johngeraghty Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
37. nothing will change
nothing will change but if someone came forth and said they were asked to change ballots or machines then thta could be traced back in a watergate type scandal.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
44. Are you a Gemini?
I don't know what the result will be. I can't imagine why you would think proven fraud won't change the results. If enough people decide it changes the results then it does.

Our founding fathers must be spinning in their graves at about 200 rotations per minute.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Because I do not think they will be able to prove fraud to that degree
and frankly, I do not see a free press that has the guts to follow this story. I wished I believed differently. But all we will get are more empty promises to "fix" the system, at most.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. But Kentuck.... who is the government
I agree that I have little faith in the elected officials or the people. But I do have hope that real leaders are out there, maybe amoung us, who will lead the people to take back their government.
If faud is proven, then I say we all hit the streets together and tell them all to grab a pink slip and go home.

I guess I am hopeful that American democracy still exists in the hearts of the people.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. I admire your hopefulness but...
without a free and open press, our democracy is lost. And I do not see a sufficient amount of interest in the media in saving our democracy. Maybe we will have to hit the streets?

I have no doubt that the Bush regime would do anything to maintain power - including stealing an election. We should continue to press as hard as we can to get out the truth about fraud, but I am not hopeful we will be able to change very much. We are very close to losing our democracy.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
45. When fraud is proven, it will just be another one for the history
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:58 PM by cat_girl25
books that Bush/Cheney were illegitimately elected. And also, if fraud is proven they need to GET RID OF THE DAMN VOTING MACHINES!
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
46. There's always hope, but what happened to all the smoking guns?
Why is it that our smoking guns always turn out to be more fizzle than pop?

It's been, what, a week or so since Jeff whatever his name is in Florida said he had proof of not only who was involved in the fraud but how they did it. Well what happened to his proof? It's frustrating to keep hearing about fraud and then nothing being proven. It really is. Until something is proven, which I hope it is, we really do need to move on. If we don't move on, we'll get so far behind we'll never catch up.
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another5bdem Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
50. Probably not, but we have to do what is right if we say we are....
concerned about integrity.

I don't expect that a Kerry Inauguration will happen, any more than I expected the votes to be counted fairly in the first place. However, that didn't stop me (or any of us) from phonebanking and writing voter letters and sending money to JFK and other dems around the country, none of which I have ever done before this election cycle.

The thing is, with the shoe on the other foot (Hilary secretly owning a voting machine company, Soros openly owning another and promising to help Florida deliver its electoral votes for JFK, exit polls that favored * and Kerry winning all the current blues plus Florida, Ohio, Virginia, New Mexico, and Colorado, then grinning smugly and lecturing the world about "political capital" evidenced by his popular vote blowout and the new dem majority in both houses of congress) do you think for one SECOND that there wouldn't be a DEAFENING outcry of Fraud and a DEMAND that * be restored to his rightful throne? Repubs wouldn't be wiping their tears, grouphugging, and saying that the important thing was to insure the integrity of the elections in the future, AFTER Kerry has the opportunity to pack the SCOTUS and clean up the air and water against our economic interests. Can you say, "Martial Law?" And the media would make it look like grassroots efforts of real American Patriots.

IF there was fraud, we need to demand that Kerry be put where he belongs. Even if we are pretty damn sure that it won't work, and even if the media paints us as crazy :tinfoilhat: . I think, to be incredibly mushy about this, we owe it to our children and grandchildren.

This is America. If there is, on the instant replay, pass interference, touchdowns are called back all the time.
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
53. If the election isn't reversed you can forget about the next election
If there are no real consequences then there is no reason for them to stop cheating.
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muse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #53
85. I'd restate this and say that if the election isn't investigated,
you can forget about the next election. I agree with goddess40 that there needs to be real consequences. And, no, I don't think the election results will be reversed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. kentuck.... a member since 2001.... with almost 25,000 posts....
is a freeper? Hey, where'd you get that Freeper Sniffer? Is that something new from Ron Popeil? I'll defend any DUer's right to post comments like these. And if that makes me a collaborator... just hit the alert button and send in the mods.
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Tesibria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
57. I agree that ...
.. it is highly likely that this election result will not change, and (some - many) people need to focus on "what's next":

(a) enough actionable evidence will not be discovered in time to stop it through the courts (actionable - acceptable in court);
(b) BushCo are too smart to have left their fingerprints - even if fraud is provable (acceptable in court) - but happens after the electoral college votes, it still won't change the result -- i.e., 4 more years.

As Randi Rhodes said, she KNOWS it was stolen -- need (and don't YET anyway have) proof that will stand up in court -- and that just hasn't shown up yet.

THAT BEING SAID, I am, however, happy that many people are committed to counting the votes and to improving the system and eliminating BBV. THAT is a laudible goal. It's more than that -- it is ACTIONABLE and ESSENTIAL. I actively support groups seeking to fix the broken system.
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Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
58. There is a 00.05% probability that it won't be reversed.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
59. I see no way for Kerry to take this election
Based upon the numbers, this election was won by Bush. The sooner we acept that fact and come t grips with what must be done, the better off everybody will be.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. But Those Numbers Have Been Monkeyed With


   "committed to helping to deliver the electoral votes of Ohio to the President"
      Walden O'Dell, CEO
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. That's a heavy charge
Can I see the proof?
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. It's All Over the Internet, but try this link...
http://www.wanttoknow.info/electionsproblems

Now, be a good boy, and do your own homework, and then you can begin debunking with passion.

Computer error at voting machine gives Bush 3,893 extra votes:
http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=2524952

Glitch Causes Franklin Co. Recount:
http://www.indystar.com/articles/3/193880-4433-093.html

Just a ponder here....why do all these "computer/software/human glitches" always seem to result in favor George Bush, and other Republicans, while always (except for a single incident that's so small, it's laughable) to the disadvantage of the John Kerry/John Edwards ticket, hm?
And then knowing that those paperless machines couldn't be built with a papertrail while Diebold is also the nation's largest manufacturer of Automatic Teller Machines (ATMs) that do have papertrails, as you know, are all owned, and operated by strong Republican donators.
Hmm.
Smell a rat yet?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #67
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. Proof? I don't get it.
The proof, if it exists, is in the ballots and computer audits.

Mathematician can show odds (though I still remember a college text I had "How to lie with statistics"), experts have shown vulnerabilities of the systems and there are many red flags, reason to be suspicious.

But proof needs recounts, audits and investigations. Even if someone confessed, that would be great but then it would need investigating

Investigations need suspicions to trigger them.
Proof needs investigations to find it.

If there is fraud we have no reason to believe Bush has any majority. If I were planning such a scam of course I would arrange for the majority, many votes from places that wouldn't draw suspicion. Ohio and NH are starts.

And way more then Kerry now is every future election.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I see no way why you have no trust in the American People...
...and aside from that, don't forget that California still has over 2 million cast ballots uncounted thusfar. Now, I'm no statitician, but the last time Gore was up in the popular vote by 250,000, California tallied up it's absentee, overseas votes, and made that number go to 537,000 so let's at least wait until my State is finished counting, will you?
We might surprise you again...
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Kerry could pick up 10,000,000 mor votes in California and it won't mean
DICK.

California went to Kerry, so any more votes for Kerry in California are of no use.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #68
82. It will EAT into Bush's bloated popular vote count with REAL votes...
...and how in the heck do YOU know Kerry won't win this election?!?
You DO understand that it ain't over, 'til it's over, don't you?
The vote counting is still going on all over the country!
Geez! Just because the corporate media is crowning Bush already, doesn't mean it's real--or don't you know that it is WE the PEOPLE who elect our President, NOT campaigns, NOT candidates, NOT talkingheads or even the mighty, and rigged Republican vote-eating contraptions!
So, Kerry's concession speech--tears and all--don't mean jack-shit, okay?
Bush has not yet been elected.
Try to keep up.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
64. You can't reverse something that hasn't happened yet
The election is not over. VOtes are still being counted. The vote has not been certified and the electors have not voted.

Come back with this thread after all that happens and we'll talk.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)



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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
66. Not a chance. 0. Nada.
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restorefreedom Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
69. hell, no
But if Kucinich/Nader/Badnarik are able to show that fraud took place, even it doesn't change the ultimate outcome, it's gonna make for a tough four years for the boy king. Any shred of credibility he might have had left in some parts of the world is going right down the toilet.

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Hog lover Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
92. *'s credibility might be (even more) ruined outside the US
but there are 50 million plus idiots in the US who just won't get it.

(By the way, I heard a bit of a program on NPR talking about a survey showing a massive decline in reading in the US. Most people in our country are just f*****g idiots.)
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John BigBootay Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
71. No. It's delusional thinking -- intentional or unintentional eom
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ZombieNixon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
72. One thing's for sure...
It's not going to be John Kerry standing in front of the Capitol on January 20. I do believe the election was stolen, either by Diebold or by voter fraud (probably both). However, anyone who thinks that it's going to come out by December 13 is either nave or extremely optimistic. We have to keep pushing for investigation, but don't think it's all going to come out so soon. Look toward 2006. Shit always hits the fan in the second year of the second term.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
73. I don't think so
but people who are working for investigation have to work it out.

If there is little support from the big guys, there will be an uphill battle everywhere with little to support it except for begging for donations , It will be diminished in the media, in the congress, everywhere.

Personally, I do not see, and actually resent the lack of support from the Kerry/Edwards people, how this can accomplish much without them involved.

Why is this left up to us to bear this burden?

People are contributing money , sacrificing their own needs perhaps, and there is 45 mil in the Kerry campaign coffers that was set aside to do this? Why?

That doesn't sound strange to some? It does to me. I do not believe at this date that Kerry/Edwards is hanging back in some sort of clever, chessplaying strategy. It is too late--they are off on their own--Kerry back in the comfortable seat in the Senate.

A donation of ten dollars to this effort by some that are already stressed, is a sacrifice--while Kerry/Edwards go on their merry way and Kerry to contemplate another run in 2008 leaving the burden to those who supported them, worked and volunteered for them for hours and hours of their time?

Doesn't tickle my funny bone at all.
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NYsocialworker Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
74. No
I plan on working to elect Democrats in future elections. As far as I am concerned, 2004 is over (for me at least). For those who cannot let it go, more power to you. For my sake and the sake of my family, I can no longer expend the mental and physical energy it takes me to believe that this election will turn out any other way.
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JaneEyrez Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
75. If you believe in the impossible...
and work very hard, you may accomplish more than you dare to dream.

On the other hand, being defeated before you begin to fight ensures that you will be defeated... by yourself.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. I hear you Jane...
and I know what you say has merit. And I do not have the power to read the tealeaves but I have studied this media and the politicians for many years and as much as I would love to believe in the dream, reality keeps telling me something entirely different. When does the fight begin? For some odd reason, I thought we had been fighting it for the last four years??
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Mister K Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
76. I have another viewpoint..well sort of
I am not sure if this election can be overturned...but it has been pointed out that all the votes have not been counted yet either.

I personally don't like what I am seeing in this country. We are supposed to be living in a democracy in which its government is chosen by the people. I don't believe that this took place this time. I believe that this election had many problems and some may have been downright fraud. Can I prove this. No. But I do believe that someone can and will.

The greatest tactical advantage of any battle is the element of surprise. This is regardless of the type of battle whether it be in a courtroom or on the battlefield. I actually think that it is better that the media black this stuff out for now and that we get limited press. Think, the more people that knew what was going on, the more resistance we would find along the way. Look around and see what is coming out of the Kerry camp. A group of lawyers being sent to Ohio to 'see what's going on' and to 'surpress rumors'. Everything that is being done is being done so low key. We will know without a doubt by the end of this week what Kerry is really thinking and doing.

I also believe that Bev Harris and her group are making great strides because she is catching people off guard.

When it all hits the fan, they are not going to know what hit them.
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Frumious B Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. There are various issues here.
First of all, it's important just to know the truth just for its own sake. I can't say for certain whether or not Bush's win is fraud, but I do know that there are enough irregularities to warrant a full investigation into the matter. Even if Bush suffered absolutely no negative consequences, the media never picked up on the story and people looked at me askew every time I brought it up, I would still want to know if there was fraud.

If there was fraud then its important that it be exposed and corrected for the sake of our electoral process. Even if this election can't be changed, we **hope** that there will be other elections in the future. High profile public exposure, even if Bush stays in office, would seriously undermine his credibility and his agenda and also would probably secure big Dem wins in 2006 and 2008.

Finally, if there's absolutely no truth to the fraud allegations at all then I'm still perfectly happy that they'll be kicking around as a rumor for the next four years and, possibly, for decades thereafter. Fraud or no, Bush is still a criminal who belongs in prison, not the White House, and **anything** that weakens his hold on people, whether true or false, can only be good. It's a touch more Machiavellian than I would prefer to be under normal circumstances, but these are desperate and trying times. Besides, it's not like the Republicans have ever been shy about spreading false rumors and slander about their enemies.



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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
78. Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzz
i personally think some Wiley rebel types should just kidnap Rove some dark and foggy night...take him to some hidey place...and just do some creative convincing of him that he should tell where all the skeletons are hidden...i am not saying torture exactly...some some creative pressure...and then we would know...it probably wouldn't take much even in the way of "pressure" and he would pee his pants and tell all. Oh well....its late and i am tired...hehehehehehe!
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ever_green Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
81. Maybe the next election will actually be FAIR
That would be a nice change wouldn't it?
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Chomskyite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
83. We gotta stand there while they count them out, though
And you never know. Something may turn up. We may accidentally get those overvotes in Ohio counted. I realize it would take a miracle.
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greenohio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
87. The whole world believes the election happend on Nov. 2nd
It is just silly to believe that Kerry will be sworn in in January. I am geniunely surprise by the number of people who just refuse to see this.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
88. No
But it could certainly be enough to prosecute the RNC, and/or go for an impeachment against the party members.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
89. don't know
he probably wouldn't be able to govern effectively with the GOP controling everything. I will be happy if it's reversed but people are slowly moving on and preparing for the worst.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
91. I agree
Except for the apology part. Fuck the fantasy-world people who think the election will be magically overturned.
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