Must Read from the Zogby site: " I Smell a Rat"

[TruthIsAll]

http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=10398

[JerseygirlCT]

1. Wow.

Who is Colin Shea?

[SleepingDragon]

2. Powerful stuff, thanks for the post

This should begin to show up in Bev's work. The smell of rat is getting to be overpowering.

[mia]

3. Whose callin' me a rat !?!

[Sideways]

17. Nobody Honey We Love Your Dancing Rat

[Kipepeo]

4. thanks for this

The facts as I see them now defy all logical explanations save one--massive and systematic vote fraud. We cannot accept the result of the 2004 presidential election as legitimate until these discrepancies are rigorously and completely explained.

[RPM]

162. Irrelevant - you used science!!!!

OK - you used statistics; probably full of those EVIL ARABIC numbers...

How do you expect any churchified or war-on-terrified Bush voters (a good half of those folks out there) to believe this.

They believe that he won - therefore he won.

Aint faith great, you an believe whatever you want; damn all statistical science to hell where it belongs!!!

[AnnInLa]

5. It just made me cry in absolute frustration

this is a total bizarro world, and there doesn't seem to be a way out.

[Sideways]

19. Feel Your Pain Sister I Want To Bang A Large Pan On My Head

How is this not so fucking OBVIOUS? How can the million dollar talking heads just blather on and on? Why are people still watching Survivor?

Head meet pan....AGAIN!

[Cadence]

34. I totally agree with you

I also feel like I'm in bizarro world with no way out...I feel a little stunned. What has happened to our country? This is actually really, really scary.

[LilKim]

6. Regarding those Florida counties with

a very high percentage of Democratic registration supposedly voting very disproportionately for Bush, I would like to see a comparison of their voting patterns this election with 2000, 1996, 1992, and maybe even further back, to see how truly anomalous this year was, because the counter argument that I've now read a few times is that there are mostly DINOs in those counties who have a history going back decades of voting Republican.

[CupaJoe]

60. Response to the "Dixiecrat" hypothesis

I emailed Colin Shea asking him about this point -- that maybe the Democrats in these counties ALWAYS vote heavily for the Republican presidential candidate. He has done an analysis that compares the presidential voting behavior of the same counties across years, and it shows that the shift was much greater in those optical-scanner-using counties this year than in previous years. The analysis is described here, along with a repetition of some of the material from the first article. http://www.prague.tv/zine/article.php?name=i-smell-a-ra...

[RuleofLaw]

64. I posted this earlier on another thread.

Year Dem Rep 3rd party
1980 2,606 2,271 82
1984 1,381 3,485 0
1988 1,353 3,414 8
1992 1,974 3,417 1362 (Perot)
1996 2,273 3,684 677 (Perot)
2000 2,392 5,610 152
2004 2,180 7,738 37

Here is what I found looking at Baker County:

From 1988 to 2004:

Presidential Elections

Year Dem Rep 3rd party
1980 2,606 2,271 82
1984 1,381 3,485 0
1988 1,353 3,414 8
1992 1,974 3,417 1362 (Perot)
1996 2,273 3,684 677 (Perot)
2000 2,392 5,610 152
2004 2,180 7,738 37

http://election.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchiv...

Population, 2003 estimate 23,424
Population, percent change, 1990 to 2000 20.4%

For some reason, the results for 2000 and 2004 looks odd to me. While the Dem. stayed fairly even, the Rep. increased dramatically.

Other interesting facts:

White persons, percent, 2000 (a) 84.0%
Black or African American persons, percent, 2000 (a) 13.9%

Median household income, 1999 $40,035
Median Statewide 1999 $38,819

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12/12003.html

I am not making any conclusions, just an observation.

[Poll Ally]

69. Not much to see or discuss really

Take a look back through the last 30 years of voting in Florida. Nobody in the Kerry campaign believes anything funny happened there - this is not a repeat of 2000.

It's bene very typical for the "redneck riveira" to vote for republicans. The margin by which Bush increased his vote there this year was also consistent with the rest of the State.

The problem for Kerry in Florida was that the republicans just did a better job turning out the vote. Flocks of new democrats went out and voted and nobody is to blame, it's just that the republicans got more out to vote.

[shraves]

90. The big jump in Rep votes is consistent with Perot voters...

switching to Republican.

Also, if you total the overall votes cast, it is quite consistent with a 20% increase in the population.

[mom-mad-about-bush]

7. Do you think this will be another 2000

or do you think the truth will be found and told????

[Kid_A]

78. I doubt we'll ever know all the facts. Investigative journalism is dead.

Anyone who even tried to look into this and dig deep enough to prove the existence of fraud would be discredited more quickly than you can say "fair and balanced". If the truth about this ever came out, the Republican party would be in shambles for decades. And that is precisely why we'll probably never know. It's depressing, but this is the world we live in...

[Kerry in 04]

8. Awesome article!!!!!!!

[karlrschneider]

9. Gotta kick this one.

Bastards.

[Cheswick2.0]

10. amazing article .......... TIA, could you do a quick annalysis for us

Could you give us non statistics experts your opinion about the counties in florida who are dem but vote repug? Could you do it in statistics for dummies style?

[Spiffarino]

42. Cheswick 2.0 - faster, more powerful, the finest Cheswick ever.

Glad to see you've been upgraded.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

11. Giving a kick n/t

[valis]

12. Something IS suspicious here...

[DemoTex]

13. Kick

[progdonkey]

14. kick

[mvd]

15. I do, too!

I believed there was fraud in the first place, but this should raise anyone's eyebrows.

[mzmolly]

16. Blast this stuff to the LAZY media!

[Cha]

18. And DUers ask if we "believe this election

was stolen?"!

Heck, yes I do! We already have Proof that the bush cabal lead our Nation to Invade another based on false information(read LIES) and we're suppose to think they wouldn't stop at stealing another election?

And Zogby smells a RAt? I say.."Go Zogby!" Ferret out what you can for us!

[TriMetFan]

21. I already have a Bush Cheat Again sticker on my car.

This just makes me so FUCKING SICK.

[LibertyorDeath]

20. OK I'm not so pissed at Zogby now

We need a pied piper to lead the dirty Rats over a Cliff
Metaphorically speaking of course (this disclaimer for Agent Mike)

[Skink]

23. Yeah

I tell ya the first thing that happened in 2000 was the call went out by the media optical scan good. Chad bad. Optical scan good...you are getting sleepy. Florida is a great model for uncovering fraud. The bigger problem is what was thrown out or not counted in Ohio.

[LibertyorDeath]

26. Can you imagine if the three biggest Electronic Voting Machine Companies

Were owned by Democrats and there was NO WAY to Verify the Vote.

Oh My Gawd the Repubs would be going Insane there's no frigging way they'd stand still for it.

[Poll Ally]

73. Diebold was not in Ohio

How did this effect the election though?

Kerry got the number he hoped for in Ohio. Bush got more of his voters out. This is why Kerry conceded, this is why he lost. He knows this, his campaign knows hit, the DNC knows this. Incidentally the pollster knew it to, most had called Ohio for Bush in the days before the election.

We are talking 100,000 votes plus. That's 2%+. The reason you are not seeing the outcry from the party like 2000 is Kerry GOT what he expected to get out of Ohio, the republicans got a few more % points to turn out over 2000 and therefore won.

[FlaGranny]

115. I'd like to be having YOUR dream.

[Poll Ally]

120. NOT ONE DIEBOLD MACHINE WAS IN OHIO

Again, not a single Diebold machine was in use in Ohio. If you think otherwise please provide some facts to back it up.

That doesn't mean the other machines weren't messed up, but Diebold had nothing to do with it.

[CatWoman]

156. *ahem*

At least 35 counties in the state of Ohio have chosen to use a touch screen voting machine manufactured by Diebold, a company based in North Canton, Ohio.
Diebold's Touch-Screen Voting Machine

Diebold's Vote-Taker
and Counter
The new voting systems will print out vote totals at the end of the election and can also transmit results by modem.

The Mill has found that, according to the Center for Responsive Politics' contribution database, Diebold gave $100,000 to the Republican National Committee in 2000 and additional sums between 2001 and 2002 totaling $95,000. Including Diebold CEO William O'Dell's personal soft-money contributions of $5,965 during that cycle, the total amount of contributions exceeds $200,000 for the period.

http://www.gristforthemill.org/010418diebold.html

[PhuLoi]

22. kick n/t

[Kolesar]

24. "Open your eyes and see the lies right in front of you" -- Stiv Bators

[AspenRose]

25. Everyone knows it was stolen....

It does not take a rocket scientist to come to this conclusion:

"We cannot accept the result of the 2004 presidential election as legitimate until these discrepancies are rigorously and completely explained. From the Valerie Plame case to the horrors of Abu Ghraib, George Bush has been reluctant to seek answers and assign accountability when it does not suit his purposes. But this is one time when no American should accept not getting a straight answer. Until then, George Bush is still, and will remain, the ‘Accidental President' of 2000. One of his many enduring and shameful legacies will be that of seizing power through two illegitimate elections conducted on his brother's watch, and engineering a fundamental corruption at the very heart of the greatest democracy the world has known. We must not permit this to happen again."

Amen, and amen.

[Blue_Roses]

27. KICK

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. I didn't place implicit faith in the Bush administration!

I KNEW they would steal this election. No doubt in my mind. Otherwise we would have had a paper trail on EVERY damn machine in this country.

That is a GREAT analysis!


With this acceptance, we placed our implicit faith in the Bush Administration that it would not abuse its position: that it would recognize its fragile mandate for what it was, respect the will of the majority of people who voted against them, and move to build consensus wherever possible and effect change cautiously when needed. Above all, we believed that both Democrats and Republicans would recognize the over-riding importance of revitalizing the integrity of the electoral system and healing the bruised faith of both constituencies.

[meganmonkey]

29. Now I've got this song stuck in my head

The White Stripes
I Think I Smell A Rat

Oh I think I smell a rat
I think I smell a rat
all you little kids seem to think you know just where it's at
Oh I think I smell a rat
walking down the street carrying a baseball bat
Oh I think I smell a rat

Oh I think I smell a rat
Oh I think I smell a rat
all you little kids seem to think you know just where is at
Oh I think I smell a rat
using your mother and father for a welcome mat
Oh I think I smell a rat

[RevCheesehead]

30. Thanks, TIA! You give us hope!!

[lildreamer316]

31. kick!

[yorkiemommie1]

32. kick n/t

[spanone]

33. Wowzers....

[Paradise]

35. We've been saying all along that they would steal it, and they did!

No one is shocked, are they?

[struggle4progress]

36. Two stolen national elections. eom

[robbedvoter]

39. Actually, 3....2002 was stolen in enough states to qualify

[Doctor_J]

37. Good, but irrelevant

this on'es over too. they stole it and got away with it. Whoever didn't thikn they would heist this one is as naive as the Limbeciles are ignorant.

It's looking more and more like this will not come to a peaceful ending. We're in 1936 Germany, Volken, and the bully's not going to be defeated by spirited debate amongst ourselves.

[robbedvoter]

40. Truth is never irrelevant.

[Doctor_J]

65. "Truth is never irrelevant"

have you been asleep for 5 years? If truth were relevant, *'s % of the vote would've been about the same as his blood alcohol level.

[Poll Ally]

89. Are you for real?

You are comparing what happened in this election to the extermination and homicide of millions of men, women and children? Are you out of your mind?

[LosinIt]

138. If you studied the rise of the Nazi Party you'd be amazed at the parallels

But that would involve that damn librul book- larnin' and you 30 something count posters from freeperville just won't stand for that now willya??

[quaoar]

38. So who is Colin Shea?

And where did that story come from?

[quaoar]

41. OK, here is the original link

complete with charts and links to the sources he cites:

http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/article.asp?id=321

[consciousobjector]

43. Kerry's lawyers are in Ohio

Does anyone know if they are in Florida too?

[Raster]

44. Well worth kicking!

Thank gods for the internets.

[malatesta1137]

45. great article, but absolutely nothing NOTHING will come out of it

The Republicans prepared for any recount challenges when they first planned the theft, there's nothing anyone can do, sorry guys.

In 2000 we had THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES on our side and there was nothing HE could do to stop the rigging back then, do you think an article on the Zogby website or recount challenges that are not even coming from John Kerry will make any real difference now? Wake up and smell the coffee, folks.

[consciousobjector]

46. So what if the challenges come from someone other than Kerry?

Just because the challenges are coming from other candidates doesn't mean Kerry won't benefit from the results...Kerry is smart, if he made a public fuss he would be labled treasonus and every other name the repukes could think of. Remember: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

[Poll Ally]

80. Kerry has moved on

If you think John Kerry is supporting this you're seriously mistaken.

It's got to be offensive to the man and his team that the people here think they are smarter. They kept very close track of provisional ballots the night of the election and full well knew most would be rejected as they couldn't find the names on their own lists in many cases. When enough of the precincts reported back with 5 or 6k provisionals and the internal estimates were that 50% or more would be invalid, this wasn't a difficult decision.

The National DNC has moved on because they know even if errors are found they'll never be enough to overturn a 100k deficit.

Trust me when I tell you, if Kerry's campaign had a number and didn't hit it, they'd be demanding a recount. Kerry got his target/hope number, Bush just got more.

The precinct Captains didn't see the problems being reported on the web. The lawyers didn't see the problems. The numbers make sense within the campaign. This is not Florida in 2000.

[Reality Not Tin Foil]

47. There is a 99.95% probability that this article is 99.95% accurate.

[mogster]

48. Phew! What ho?

The truth is up for grabs, it seems.

Things aren't what they seem anymore.

Conservophiles posing as conservatives with their yucky revolution posing as conservatism. Fundamentalist itheology from groupthink-tanks replace reason, turning the US into a republic owned by the Banana-Republicans.

Someone is planning this and making it happen. It for sure isn't Bush, because he's suffering acutely from the chew/walk syndrome.

I Think I'll take the Red Pill, if you don't mind.

[newyawker99]

55. Hi mogster!!

Welcome to DU!!

[Swamp Rat]

49. HEY! I resemble that!

[Dukakis88]

50. Meanwhile, Al Franken on Air America is telling us fraud didn't happen

What is it about some Democrats that make them so afraid of alienating conservatives that they do everything they can to distance themselves from uncomfortable trouble-making facts?

[Doctor_J]

61. the cons took over the country

by jumping on every real or alleged iniquity that went our way, and blaring about it endlessly. Sorry, Al is on my not-listen list until he starts talking sense.

[Poll Ally]

71. Al is right

Al isn't joining with you because he knows you're wrong. Don't you think he has key contacts in the Kerry camp that are telling him exactly what McAullife is telling you?

Kerry hit is number in Ohio, the republicans hit theirs. It's no more difficult to understand than that. People may have waited a long time to vote or had trouble BUT THEY VOTED. The problem for Kerry was the republicans waited in their lines too.

I think Al realizes the lunacy in the arguments being made. It's detrimental to the party. Kerry had over 4,000 lawyers on the ground in Ohio on election day and almost to the man/woman they reported no problems. Don't you think some of them would have seen these things or were they all in on it to?

MSNBC has the exit polls from Ohio posted. 47% believed the war was going at least okay. 54% approved of the decision to go to war. 66% reported they are doing as well or better than 4 years ago. Florida was pretty much the same. The problem with the exit polls is they skewed in too many females. It's no conspiracy, many moms go out to vote when the kids are in school. It's the pollsters fault for not adjusting.


The average of all the polls done showed Bush winning in Florida and Ohio.

I think the reason the mainstream is staying away from this is there is no substance to it and they know it. I think largely they think a lot of it is the ramblings of the internet.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

74. Troll alert.

Time to duck and cover from the BS of Poll Ally.

[Poll Ally]

83. Non-conspiracy = troll?

I don't get it, so I cannot be a democrat that doesn't believe the election was stolen? I happen to believe the DNC and John Kerry. I'm not questioning their judgement and actually posted below some of the reasons THEY conceded. I posted a Boston Globe article where they flat out say they hit their number but the other guys did better.

What does it take?

It's making the party look like a bunch of X-File watching internet addicted goofs. The truth is already out there about what happened. In one county they miscounted and gave Bush 4k extra votes, BIG DEAL they caught it long before it was ever even sent to the SoS. It's not like these things happened and then they tried to slip them in, so far everything has been caught and Kerry still lost by 137,000 votes.

People will make mistakes in every single election. So far they've caught them all. That's why they certify the vote a month later.

[badc0der]

168. debunked

Please look at this post for a screen captures of the exit polls pre and post tampering (both captures are from well after the polls closed). You will notice that the only sampling error hypothesis that this data supports is that whites were over sampled. What brought the exit polls in line with returns is not some mythical sampling problem but the unexplained 6 point jump among white male voter and unexplained 4 point jump among white female voters in the wee hours of November 3rd.

[dave420]

51. SHOUT IT THROUGH THE STREETS

Why on Earth isn't the whole of America in uproar now? I don't want to sound like some sort of crazy european here (I'm a brit), but if these sorts of questions were raised here, all hell would break loose. How can anyone, republican or democrat, accept the outcome of an election with such startling claims of irregularity?

Technology is all cool an' all, but when you have such a massive percentage of votes being cast in electronic form, you'd think the states would have a secondary paper-trail to ensure this new technology doesn't screw up, and to prove to John Q. Public that this newfangled technique is just as reliable as the old one.

It's all about Democracy, folks - America claims to love it and says it would defend it to the death. From here, it looks like America doesn't give a shit. WTF? It's enough of a cause to go storming into Iraq, screwing up a whole country, yet it's not enough to write a letter to your representative or run around the streets with big signs? Republicans only seem to care about democracy when it's helping them, not when it gets in their way. It's up to those in the know to get the message to those under the republican shield (read: anyone who only watches TV or listens to non-NPR radio for news) - to point out the incredibly hypocrisy of ruining one country to install democracy, while letting it crumble into oblivion at home.

Do something about it all! For too long has the rest of the world seen US republican politicians doing illegal stuff and not being challenged over it. This is far too important to let go. Second revolution, anyone?

[bklyncowgirl]

52. Excellent summary

This is one to print out and give to people who are on the fence about this.

[myschkin]

53. Not all conservatives on one line

This is even better: http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/WeveBeenHad.htm

[newyawker99]

56. Hi myschkin!!

Welcome to DU!!

[Touchdown]

68. Boy, that guy is pissed.

We need more Republicans with a conscience like him to come forward. I know they're out there.

[chill_wind]

144. Edgar J Steele

re link >> This is even better: http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/WeveBeenHad.htm <<


I followed links to this guy's site: http://www.defensiveracism.com /

He has a book titled "Defensive Racism: An Unapologetic Examination of Racial Differences"

"Methodically constructing the case for acknowledging the racial differences embedded in our DNA, to which he refers as “culture gone to seed,” Steele blows the cover off the conspiracy for the New World Order which is turning America into a police state and rendering her electoral process meaningless."

Echhhh. Rummage around a little. On the spectrum of self-described paleo-conservitives, I'd rate him a neanderthal.

Libs could find better sources of "validation "....

[LongTomH]

54. KICK!

[ArkDem]

57. .

[lady lib]

58. Powerful stuff

We've got to keep making noise about this. Make the media pay attention.

[Snivi Yllom]

59. Im surprised Zogby put this up.

I know he loves to whore his own polls, but Zogby blew his final polling big time. The exit pollsters were wrong and Zogby flopped in a spectacular fashion.

There was no fraud.

Perhaps Zogby is trying to muddy up the analysis of why he screwed up.

[charlie]

63. Or maybe

he agrees that something fishy is going on. This is the second election cycle in a row that results diverged wildly from his polling.

[Snivi Yllom]

77. or maybe

Zogby has trouble counting his own ass cheeks. Zogby is overrated.

And so is the 'Ohio Fraud' conspiracy theory.

[Poll Ally]

70. Zogby has to do something, his polls are depreciating

After a third bad election cycle, Zogby is in a lot of trouble. What nobody is mentioning is only a few polling agencies accounted for the holiday. In all the conspiracy theories I'm reading, nobody is mentioning the fact that the only one that got the election right- Rasmeussen, was also the only polllster to adjust for the effects of Halloween. Believe it or not, because much of the democratic base in Florida is older or in the cities, there is much less 'trick or treating' and they are/were at home when the pollsters called that last Sunday night. Meanwhile, the red people out in the burbs were out with their kids and weren't there to take the calls. As far as I am aware ONLY Rasmeussen did a manually adjustment to the polling sample taking into account the holiday, ZOGBY did not.

People are taking Zogby as the gospel. He's a fringe pollster who's usefulness is diminishing each election cycle. His online polling mechanisms are questionable at best.

Please keep in mind that in Ohio John Kerry HIT his number. Internally the campaign got exactly the vote they expected - this has widely been reported in Boston. It is simply a matter of Bush getting more of his people out, 3% more to be exact over 2000.

This is the reason the DNC is not jumping on the blog worlds accustations. Internally they are well aware of the results v their expectations and the problem is not bad exit polls, or funny numbers....it's almost entirely attributable to more republicans coming out to vote than expected. Kerry carried independents and democrats.

[CatWoman]

72. well, damn. that's does it. Polly Ally has shown me

my error AND the light.

Sorry if I think you're full of shit.

[Poll Ally]

75. Nice Language

That's nice language considering the publicity this site is getting.

Is the Boston Globe full of it to? John Kerry's people on the radio in Boston?

They aren't accusing anyone of cheating. A front page story in the Globe yesterday discussed the entire election and where they went wrong. The campaign plainly states they got the number they were hoping for in Ohio "we hit our number". In their most robust estimation of hopeful votes - they actually exceeded it. The problem was and is, the republicans increased their votes just slightly more.

Where is it that you think 137,001 votes are in Ohio that were stolen? Was it a conspiracy that almost EVERY national media poll showed Bush winning Ohio? I mean what is the actual argument here, this is what nobody can understand outside of the blog conspirarcy people.

I should mention, do you realize the lawyers for Kerry weren't sitting on their hands. They were actively checking, rechecking and analyzing the results on the ground in the precincts. They were present in EVERY precinct. No complaints, and all was reported to be okay. I mean, what does it take? Kerry says he lost, all of his people say he lost, the DNC says he lost, and yet the blog community knows more than the DNC? I just don't understand and frankly most don't.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll Ally]

87. Okay

But did you answer what wasn't the truth? Everything I said was 100% the truth, and so far all you've done to dispute it is curse and stomp your feet like a child.

I've given you the full exit poll results which were being used to "verify" the election was stolen. The full election day exit polls show nothing of the sort. I've given you a 16 page Boston Globe report from yesterday where they flat out state they got their number of votes. This is the same paper that ran the fake memos.

Zogby sees that next election cycle his membership will be way off because he's been utterly useless three cycles in a row and needs to blame someone. All it does is feed into the pscyhosis.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll Ally]

81. What isn't the truth?

Can you tell me what isn't the truth?

1. Did Zogby adjust for Halloween? No
2. Did Rasmeussen adjust for Halloween? Yes
3. Would most pollsters have considered it given how rare it is to have occured just before the election (on the last night most polled)? No. This is the first time it's happened in recent history that the last night most agencies polled happened to be Halloween.
4. Did Kerry hit his number in Ohio? Yes, read the Boston Globe, Boston Herald, or any other paper this weekend that widely reported they were satisfied with their turnout. Here is just one snippet, others quote Kerry or his team directly:

Boston Globe, Sunday November 14th, 2004
"Kerry knew there was no chance he would gain enough votes in Ohio to become president. Agonizingly, he realized that his campaign had met its turnout goal in Ohio voters but that the Bush campaign had turned out many more rural voters than anticipated, including many apparently driven by cultural and leadership issues."

[CatWoman]

86. Zogby is right about that rat stinking up the place

[Poll Ally]

88. If you say so

Well based on everything you've posted you've convinced me that you, Cat Woman of the web is right, and John Kerry, John Edwards - their entire campaign staff and the entire DNC are wrong.

The fact is if Kerry lost by 1 million votes you'd still be here telling the rest of us it was stolen.

Boston Globe Sunday November 14th, 2004
"Kerry knew there was no chance he would gain enough votes in Ohio to become president. Agonizingly, he realized that his campaign had met its turnout goal in Ohio voters but that the Bush campaign had turned out many more..."

[in_cog_ni_to]

91. Problem being,

the idiot-in chief's campaign DID NOT turn out more voters. THEY STOLE THE ELECTION! Why is that so hard to understand? There is no way in hell the chimp won this election. None. Think...*Central Tabulators*.

You just repeated the RW talking points. They know they stole the election and have thrown out so many excuses of why Kerry lost, I've lost track of them. Again, THEY STOLE THE ELECTION!

MEOW!! HISS! HISS!

[CatWoman]

92. don't argue with the *ahem* "poster"

for he/she is the Oracle.

Logic can be a very intimidating thing.

Yeah, that's it, the Boston Globe has it sorted out. Yep, that's it. All is well. Nothing to see here. All is well.

[Poll Ally]

94. Logic

Cat Woman, what logic have you demonstrated today? Your posting in entirety consisted of two profane comments. You've not refuted anything I've said probably because you cannot.

You have no idea what went on in the Kerry campaign the night of the election and the constant accustations that they were too stupid to see what you all see is offensive.

Someone on another thread compared this to the Hitler era. Here is a better one, this is much more like the McCarthy era where everyone was so sure his neighbor was a commie.

They'll find in the end the results aren't that much different and at that point the accusations will change to mythical computer programs tallying the votes against Kerry. I could totally understand your point if all the pre-election polls hadn't swung to Bush, all the exit polls, and the fact that he carried it in 2000. Schilling probably helped him out too.

[Poll Ally]

93. what PROOF do you have of your accusations?

What specific proof do you have? The 4k extra votes that were caught during the normal process of rechecking? People waited for 5 hours so there must have been fraud? The SoS is a republican so it's his fault? The supposed security threat in a county that Bush carried by the same margin as he did in 2000?

It's not even a matter of arguing, all you keep repeating is the same stuff which is essentially "I don't think he could have won so they must have cheated."

I'm glad they are recounting everything in Ohio. But it won't matter, no matter what they find you'll all still think the election was stolen. In some states you cite exit polls as proof, in other states democratic counties would never vote for Bush. In OHIO the exit polls were in Bush's favor, the vast majority of pre-election polls showed him winning by 2-3%, and that is exactly what happened.

The sad thing is, the "chimp" is back in the white house and instead of realizing we got out butts beat again you all are sitting around pretending 11/2 didn't happen. It's not like this election was a shot in the dark, this is really 10 years in a row (aside of Clinton in 96) that we got pounded.

[CatWoman]

95. and who is this "we" that you speak of?

[musette_sf]

96. Oh, excuse me,

I thought this was the Democratic Underground. Now that Poll Parrot has held forth loud and long about how I should believe the MSM on the election, I have a hankerin' for a nice frosty glass of Kool-Aid.

What was I thinking? Election fraud? Why, that CAN'T happen here! Poll Parrot is here to set the record straight!

(Hey Poll Parrot, it's time for you to go get your talking points from CNN, so you have some more MSM bullshit for later. Maybe Paula Zahn has some fresh new RW drool for you to parrot.)

[Poll Ally]

97. Again where is the proof?

musette_sf what does this being Democratic Underground have to do with anything? Is the truth the truth?

I have no idea what MSM is in all honesty.

There's just no consistency to the statements being made. I guess I'm asking to be enlightened. The conspiracy theories are all over the map and the fraud theories are one and the same. What am I missing in all the accounts I've read, I'm honestly asking. I've read, heard, and seen nothing in Ohio that was fraud. Making a mistake is not fraud, it's a mistake. Have there been any results sent to the SoS that we know are fraudulent?

Zogby is now claiming something was amiss in Ohio? Well how come his last poll showed Bush winning by 6%?
Zogby | 10/29-11/1 601 LV 4.1 49 43 - Bush +6
FOX News | 10/30-31 700 LV 3.0 50 47 - Bush +3
SurveyUSA | 10/29-31 816 LV 3.5 49 47 - Bush +2
CNN/USAT/Gallup | 10/28-31 1111 LV 4.0 46 50 - Kerry +4
Ohio Poll/UofC | 10/27-31 877LV 3.3 50.1 49.2 - Bush +0.9
Mason-Dixon | 10/27-29 625 LV 4.0 48 46 - Bush +2
Rasmussen | 10/25-10/31 600 LV 4.0 50 46 - Bush +4
Clev. Plain Dealer | 10/26-28 1500 LV 2.6 48 45 - Bush +3

So were all these polls hacked too? I guess I'm missing something...namely that there are some very paranoid, delusional people in this world. It reads much more like a McCarthy era part deux than Florida revisited.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll Ally]

100. Troll as an excuse

It seems that whenever someone tries to present a reasoned and rational counterpoint to the "stolen election" theory it's reduced to name calling by the conspiracy buffs.

I've asked a simple question, do you have even a single instance of fraud that you can identify? Again, not human or computer errors that were corrected long before the numbers were sent to the SoS?

"We have an election to win..." <--- Count, recount and fight all you want, it's not going to change the outcome of the election. The definition of an insane person is one that continues to take the same course of action when the negative outcome is already known.

Someone asked earlier who "we" was. We is the rest of the party that realizes the election was lost by Cahill and Shrum, not by some consiracy in Ohio.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll Ally]

112. Exit Polls Actual Data

You can go along with your conspiracy theory which is your right, but please stop spreading mistruths and lies about the exit polls. They were dead on accurate and showed Bush winning Ohio, Florida, Iowa and New Mexico and Kerry winning Wisconsin, PA, and NH.

Ohio
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5297182
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/O ...

Florida
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/F ...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5297152

Wisconsin
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/W ...

The rest are on another link. These are the final results as provided by the polling agency hired by the news agencies. These are the end results and they were accurate. You are all flying off the handle with early exit polls that were never supposed to be leaked for fear of nuts using them like they've been used.

[in_cog_ni_to]

148. We didn't get pounded. THEY DID.

You will see the truth when the fraud is exposed. This regime is evil, just in case you haven't noticed, and had no intentions of letting Kerry stop their world domination agenda.

There were WAAAAAY too many "accidents" for them to be coincidences. Machines just *happened* to lose votes. Machines just *happened* to stop counting KERRY votes. Machines just *happened* to start counting backward when Kerry got *a certain number of votes*. Black communities that were 100% Democratic just "happened* to have only 2 machines for THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of voters. It just so happens that MORE people voted in certain counties than there were actual registered voters (30 Ohio Counties!)It's just a coincidence that many, many people have reported that when they voted for Kerry the machine said they voted for the IDIOT. Right, uh huh, there's no proof of fraud. It's all just a coincidence that ALL of the errors HELPED the idiot-in-chief!

[Poll Ally]

98. Zogby is saving his business

I posted this on another thread here. Zogby's last poll for Ohio showed Bush winning by 6%. In fact his last polls showed Bush winning the election. In his zest to be first on election day he jumped on the exit polls and called for Kerry with over 310 EV's. Now he's saying there was fraud? The only fraud is Zogby. Even if you want to pull Ohio out of the mix, his numbers were still off 10% for EVs!

Look at his performance State by State:

Wisconsin he had Kerry up 6%...try 11k votes!
Iowa he had Kerry winning by 5%...he lost by 1%
New Mexico he had Kerry up by 3%, he lost
Florida he had as a tie, Bush won by 5%

Scott Rasmeusen:
Wisconsin Kerry +1% Kerry won by slightly less
Iowa Bush +2% Bush won by slightly less
New Mexico Bush +4% Bush won by slightly less
Forida Bush +3 Bush won by slightly more

Zogby botched almost every state, Rasmeussen called NH, NJ, PA, WI, IA, NM, CO, FL, OH correctly. Only in NJ was he off by a big margin...he had Kerry +12, he won +7.

Zogby has no choice but to blame someone else, I wouldn't spend a nickel on his polls again.

[radiofreesrini]

133. "conspiracy au go-go" or "profiles in cowardice"?

i want to straddle the two contending perspectives here by stating my FAITH that fraud that will be uncovered in Ohio's election, along with that which occurred in Florida, North Carolina, New Mexico, Colorado, etc. along with a healthy dose of SKEPTICISM that this discovery will overturn the results.

sure "kerry got his numbers in ohio". what if bush DIDN'T get numbers in ohio - he got machines pre-loaded with thousands of votes in his column?

admit that it is fun thinking up sci-fi constitutional crisis scenarios with ohio picking kerry after all. remember, a concession speech is a mere formality! ha ha! what fun, to imagine, to pretend, to whimsically modify reality!

realistically, however, we find ourselves with data that is mindblowing either way. the psychological mechanisms by which Rove has wielded control of millions of Americans are vote fraud in slow motion. Rove and his party have been lying to their own base about their intentions for five years. we would be insane to disregard the mental poisons these people have pushed through vile direct mail and insane preachers; we need to become DOCTORS and HEAL the SICK! fast! how can they talk about "moral values" and look the other way from Abu Ghraib?!

finally, i would like to ask what the Democratic Party intends to do about Cincinnati, Ohio. If the Democrats won that one city, they would've taken the election this year. Forget "moral values" - let's all move to Cincinnati!

[Rambis]

62. Fuckin eh?

I knew I was livid for a reason! BASTARDS!

[Demi_Babe]

66. wow

[november3rd]

67. the rat

I saw that. Major media calls this "hearsay," "speculation," and "wild theorizing."

If any media were really investigating, like the black box voting and independent candidates are, they could bring the facts to light.

[Steely_Dan]

79. Great Read

I'm passing this around to my friends.

-Paige

[Poll Ally]

82. Last Day this article is available for free...Boston Globe

"Kerry knew there was no chance he would gain enough votes in Ohio to become president. Agonizingly, he realized that his campaign had met its turnout goal in Ohio voters but that the Bush campaign had turned out many more rural voters than anticipated, including many apparently driven by cultural and leadership issues."

Instead of the ramblings of a pollster that has blown 3 election cycles in a row, maybe words from within the campaign will actually convince some of you Kerry lost. This is a great article from the Boston Globe, at midnight tonight it gets archived and then costs $$$ to read.


http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/14/o... /


Also seeing as there is so much misinformation on the exit polls, here is Florida and Ohio's TOTAL exit poll. At the end of the day, the numbers were enough and make perfect sense. Enough thought the war was the right thing, enough thought that they were better off (or the same financially) as they were in 2000.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5297152 /
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5297182

[Poll Ally]

84. The Reason Kerry Lost

When Begala and company went to Mary Beth Cahill and offered all of their wisdom and time, she never even had the class to call them back. Read the Globe article, she actually blew off Begala. Not only did she never bother to call him up and say "I don't want your help.", she told him she'd get back to him and then ignored all his calls the rest of the campaign. She admits in the Globe it was a mistake...you think!?!?!?!

The Clinton people were right, this was an inept campaign team. How do you blow off one of the smartest guys in the party?

I don't blame Kerry, or Edwards, or the right wing. I put the blame squarely on an ego maniac campaign manager that instead of accepting help from those that had won in the past put her pride before the party and ignored them.

[Rockerdem]

101. "Holy" smokes

Everyone should view this.

[guamster]

102. Can't we all just get along

Hi- First time... Still in shock, stopped watching the news outlets... can bare to hear Bush talk. Well- I think at the end of the day there's going to be those of us progressives/democrats who are never gonna believe this was what the country wanted- and given all the drama and suspicion being reported, the Diebold chairman's blatant profession he was a Bush-man, we're never gonna believe it was fair. To Al Franken, Pollster: the firm hand of reality has set in for most of us that Bush is going to be President. But, the exit polls told a different story, the machines are spitting out wrong numbers in several places, and there is suspicion that the vote was hijacked. Turns out a recount will proceed in Ohio (thanks to Green), in New Hampshire (thanks to Nader), and in Florida (?BevHarris). I hope at the end of the day a majority of STATES refused to buy in to George Bush's Christian Homophobic Conservative homeland idea and kerry will have won. If not, I will go on as I have the last four years, but I need to know the election was fair. So, the DNC, John Kerry, and John Edwards don't get involved. So Dean doesn't get involved. We're the people, let us ask the question. The democratic umbrella is far larger than the republican umbrella. Surely, there is room for us all.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll Ally]

106. THANK YOU THANK YOU

Thank you for posting the reference to the ongoign MIT analysis that I have some knowledge of

Olbermann is a joke. He's a hack sportscaster stuffed in a dead time slot trying to stir up controversy. That article is one of many that lambaist his hack tactics. His fat sidekick Trippi is equally disdainful. His only claim to fame is raising a ton of money for a losing candidate. I wonder how many times Trippi has posted on these blogs? He too is largely responsible for giving the ideas credibility. His fifteen minutes of fame were up right after the screaming stopped in Iowa. Deep down I bet he's happy Kery lost.

Nobody here and elsewhere can understand why the media is not picking up on this. Some are accusing CNN now of being right wing and pandering to the right. Peter Jennings could barely keep from laughing when he introduced the story last week. They aren't picking up on it because the rationale behind it is so confused as to be laughible.

It's a sad state when Al Franken is the voice of reason.

[CatWoman]

108. what do you two do? troll message boards just so you can "educate"

the masses?

you are both all knowing and all seeing?

why don't you start your own fucking message board, and stop denigrading those of us who don't see your point of view?

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll Ally]

117. Bubble

Lashing out isn't the word for it. These people have nothing on Joe McCarthy.

[Poll Ally]

116. Very articulate

I think John Kerry could come on democraticunderground and explain these same things and you'd probably curse at him too.

[CatWoman]

121. and I can spell, too!!!!

[TruthIsAll]

153. Poll Ally, you are here to disrupt, not educate. Give it up. Go home.

You are wasting your time here if you think we will believe your Rove-driven lies.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll Ally]

118. Talk about fraud

Wisconsin was decided by 11k votes but was called before Ohio at 137k votes. PA was called at 801pm when the end result was a 2% victory by FEWER total votes than Ohio. Amazing how nobody here is mentioning that somehow the media was able to call PA at 801, but not Ohio for another 15 hours when PA ended up closer than Ohio!

It took the media days to call Iowa that ended up with a wider margin than Wisconsin which was called very early in the night.

[Divine Discontent]

152. surprised you made it on DU this long!!!!!!!

you have some validity to your comments, (zogby didn't say rats but that was the poster's choice, not zogby's) but you sound so NEGATIVE about the fact there were NO fraud occurences, despite news story after story showing missing votes turning up, being corrected, or not being allowed. Therefore you stink of freepermania. you need to admit there was a lot of BULL going on this time, to have ALL these polls be wrong, when it hasn't happened this badly before.

you need to quit drinking your freeperjuice.

[myschkin]

105. another Gracchi here

I think there are some (hidden) Republicans on this board... They want to destroy the motivation of the members by scattering wrong arguments.

Poll Ally, I followed the election polls on www.electoral-vote.com very well and the 'leader' in Ohio and Florida always changed. Florida was a big surprise on the election day.

Anyway, the Exit Polls showed a clear lead for Kerry (except your are talking of the 'adjusted' Exit Polls), also in Ohio, where Kerry leaded by 4 %.

This was logical, because the young voters and the undecided broke towards Kerry. No one expected a clear win by the Republicans - at least the Republicans itself (i think).

Even the poll of Fox News on the last day showed Kerry leading by 2 percents... (Remember?) There was a clear tendency in the last days towards Kerry, Bush lost ground every day. So the early (and not adjusted) Exit Polls were somehow reasonable.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll Ally]

114. Zogby had Bush winning in ohio by 6 points on11/1

Zogby's own poll had Bush winning by 6 points on 11/1. So either he knows his data is bogus or he jumped on exit polls...those are the only two choices.

[Poll Ally]

109. Polls

Hi Myschkin:

Take a close look at the actual data from the entire day though:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5297182
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/O...

This is from the entire day, not just the morning data which is what started this mess in the first place. In Ohio the ENTIRE exit poll for the media involved 2,020 people. 52% of the men voted for Bush, and women split 50-50. That's a 2-3 point Bush win, which is EXACTLY what ended up happening. The initial exit polls were not great but at the end of the day they were right in Ohio. There was no conspiracy and they mirror exactly the vote.

In Florida they polled 2,862 people by the end of the night. 53% of the men polled voted for Bush, and again 50% of the women. So again, a 3 point win or thereabouts for Bush. BUT, they interviewed more women then men, so the 3% Bush win would need to be adjusted up to account for the actual m-f turnout.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/F...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5297152

THESE ARE THE FINAL EXIT POLLS FROM ELECTION DAY IN TOTAL. Electoral-Vote called for a Kerry landslide practically on election day. He too is far from an unbiased source. These numbers and 4 links I posted are exactly what the exit polling group gave to everyone in the media and they mirror the end results.

Everyone here is going on about the early returns from exit polls. They were never supposed to be passed around the internet and their release alone has launched a 1000 conspiracy theories. At the end of the day the exit polls weren't bad.

As support of what I'm saying look at Wisconsin. The exit polls nailed a very,very tight race. At 3pm though the results were skewed...but nailed it in the end. You are all reacting and reading the initial results.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/W...

[Poll Ally]

110. More

Here's more final tallies:

Iowa is right on... a tight race but in Bush's favor via the exit poll:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/I...

New Mexico the exit polls showed Bush winning:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/N...

NH was too close to call but broke slightly for Kerry...again exit polls nailed it:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/N...

And finally in PA, the exit polls showed Kerry winning by a few points and were dead on:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/P...

People need to stop citing exit polls as a reason for "fraud". The exit polls REINFORCE the results.

[FlaGranny]

119. Oh dear, oh dear

Poll Ally and Hurin have come to enlighten us. Every thing was totally on the up and up folks. We can all go home now and forget the whole thing. Ya think?

[Poll Ally]

123. Free to think what you want

FlaGranny, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just trying to post fact where there is a lot of "rumor."

I've posted the exact total exit poll data which refutes the theory that "kerry won ohio in the exit polls". That isn't enlightenment, it's dispelling rumors.

Zogby is being looked at as some type of Messiah. The ground hog in PA would have had an equal chance of being right. Zogby's last publicly released poll showed Bush winning Ohio by 6% on 11/1. That's not me trying to sway you, that's the fact.

IF when the recount the votes they find 140k more Kerry votes, hats off to you and all of those that pushed for a recount. All I'm saying is SOME of the reasons being given to justify fraud are flat out wrong. If you think the machines counted fraudulently fine, but a lot of the other reasons are easily debunked by just getting the facts.

Recounting is one thing, accusing hard working poll workers of fraud and potentially putting many DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS on the unemployment line with your wild accusations is another thing.

[FlaGranny]

151. My wild accusation? What was that?

Hard working poll workers aren't the problem and I haven't seen too many here concerned about poll workers. What we are concerned about is votes being counted on centralized servers by republican-owned corporations who have a stake in the outcome of elections. Even if those corporations were owned by democrats, that would be just as bad. Corporations who have something to gain should not be in charge of counting our votes.

[myschkin]

122. Clever or naive?

Poll Ally (and also Hurin), maybe you read sometimes the study of Steven Freeman. Strong difference between Exit Polls and Voting Results normaly leads to a cry by the people and a fall of the reigning (and manipulating) party. See Georgia. Except in the USA... Believe me, we guys in Switzerland and everywhere in Europe are looking unbelievable at this irregularities and strange habits in your country... This is the origin state of Democracy? People of the reigning party are controlling the voting result? Voting machins without paper trail? Voting machines (and software) manufactured by republican supporters? Discrimination of minority voters all the way?

It's too absurd... Goodnight America. Goodnight Kerry. You - and Kerry - will be right in fighting for correct voting process and a clearing up of this strange election with all its irregularities. Statistics are good for proofing possible fraud of electronic manipulation which you can't fix in another way.

People without courage (and the believe of a lamb) like you disgusting me somehow...

A bit of scepticism (also against politics and the media) is healthy...

[CatWoman]

124. probably the same asshole with 2 IDs talking to himself

and applauding his "intellect"

[Poll Ally]

126. Ask the admin

Feel free to ask the admin, I have no idea who the other person is but it is not me.

You really are paranoid Cat Woman. They stole the election and now they are here ganging up on you on the forum?

You are the one doing all the swearing, we are just posting stories, links and other facts.

[Poll Ally]

125. musckin

Well we only have two parties in the USA, so the machines are going to be manufactured by one side or the other. During a recount in Ohio there are/will be 2 repubs and 2 dems per precinct.

I already posted the exit polls. The rumor about their being wide variances in exit polls in the key states is flat out wrong. Look for yourself.

The pre-election polls, the exit polls on election day, and results match up about as well as they possibly can.

It would be great if the US was the size of Switzerland and could shirk by with little relevance to the world other than hiding laundered money The USA is not a democracy and never was, it's a republic.

[pauldp]

130. Freeman's paper explains it

I suggest you Read it.
http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf /


Most of the polls were "corrected" to match the final results, it is the original raw data that needs to be analyzed but the polling institutions are not releasing that data. Some of the raw data that was posted before the final totals was recorded by some astute people however and that is what yeilded these alarming discoveries. Again read Freeman's paper. He doesn't say fraud definitely happened, he says it is a sound and likely hypothesis and people offering explanations to the contrary need to provide evidence of their theories, because most of them are unlikely.

Let's look at the big picture here:
Aside from questions of fraud or machine tampering or massive disenfranchisement, all of which seem to have evidence supporting them, there is one indisputable fact that proves that the Republican establishment killed our democracy. That is the fact that they KILLED the legislation in committee that would have implemented a paper trail for the e-voting machines. Now why the f*ck would they do that? Nobody seems to know. So now we have no way of proving our elections are fair. The Wussy Dems are not exempt from this either, why they didn't scream "BLOODY F**KING MUDER!!" when that happened is beyond me.

Don't you get it? Even if there was no fraud, our democracy (ok call it a republic) is dead.
There is no way to prove our national elections are fair. Last time I checked that doesn't qualify as a democracy.
But don't listen to me, I believe in wacky conspiracy theories like...Evolution!

[Dancing_Dave]

145. The vote fraud crisis must be pretty serious

Or we wouldn't have PR carecters like this being dispatched to DU!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

171. Thought you already explained how there were no Diebold machines

in Ohio. Nice to see the freeper operatives coming on our site to counter our arguments...we must have hit a nerve. MKJ

[myschkin]

127. please inform you

Sorry, Poll Ally, I believe in Steven Freeman. There are several 'fake' Exit Polls around...

If you read Freeman you'll see that Exit Polls never asking MORE women than man.

I think the media don't jump on this train because they have no information of politicians and they don't know how to handle the new 'blog' stuff. They have lost critical thinking somehow in this new strange America... (most of all CNN which have a comedian reporting the election process)

Another question: From where do you k n o w that there was no software manipulation? Where is your rational and critical thinking?

So you think people like Bev Harris of blackboxvoting are just crazy guys? I don't believe so.

I'm going after my mind and also after my feelings (in my stomach) - i don't believe that a majority voted this crazy guy...

Yes, Fox News Polls showed Kerry on Sunday equal, on Monday one percent ahead, Tuesday two percents ahead (and before he was always 5 percent or so behind).

[myschkin]

128. all problems solved

For Hurin (and other cynicals): http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blackspade]

150. Don't you mean...

"It's just that the close results of Florida 2000 actually put a spotlight on it and gave people like you fine folks the opportunity to make these claims every time !!!you!!! lose."

...WE LOSE?
I think you may have demonstrated who you are.

That aside, The negative reaction you and Polly are getting here is not based on your logic and critical thinking.
It is based on you guys not examining the information that has been surfacing for the last two weeks.
You guys continually cite media outlets that have been shilling for the 'thugs for the last 4-8 years as the basis for refuting the information that has been provided here at DU.
These 'outlets' have done no critical analysis of the information beyond "these bloggers are wacky sore loosing partisans who can't accept their resounding defeat".
Actual journalists would actually do their homework and provide actual data and rational explainations for the 'glitches' and 'discrepencies'.
So far the Media has not and neither have you two.
The fact about the exit polls is that they were altered at approximately 1:40 am on CNN, 6 or so hours after the pols closed in Ohio. I have the scren captures, before and after.
They show that the data was altered to fit the 'final' results.
This adjustment did not take place in states where the exit polling was dead on.
Until I see a rational explaination for the "update" when the data had already been weighted for male/female, in contested states that showed Kerry winning and not in states that had dead on exit polls, you can consider me a skeptic.

[myschkin]

131. Talking of ratio...

Yes, Hurin, I think vote fraud is possible (not Science Fiction). It's easy done (with this machines) and this team (Bush, Cheney, Rove) has no moral values at all... You are too good minded (a problem of many Democrats).

The research by Bev Harris in Ohio and Florida (and many states) is also no Science Fiction, nor the recounting of Nader in New Hamphsire.

I think YOU live in a fictional world... (feeded by NYT, CNN and other media which make unfortunately no researches at all and let this work do by the bloggers)

Poll Ally, you believe in Santa Claus, do you?

[pauldp]

132. OK I'll say it again...

Freeman's Paper
I suggest you Read it.
http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf /


Most of the polls were "corrected" to match the final results, it is the original raw data that needs to be analyzed but the polling institutions are not releasing that data. Some of the raw data that was posted before the final totals was recorded by some astute people however and that is what yeilded these alarming discoveries. Again read Freeman's paper. He doesn't say fraud definitely happened, he says it is a sound and likely hypothesis and people offering explanations to the contrary need to provide evidence of their theories, because most of them are unlikely.

Let's look at the big picture here:
Aside from questions of fraud or machine tampering or massive disenfranchisement, all of which seem to have evidence supporting them, there is one indisputable fact that proves that the Republican establishment killed our democracy. That is the fact that they KILLED the legislation in committee that would have implemented a paper trail for the e-voting machines. Now why the f*ck would they do that!!? Nobody seems to know. So now we have no way of proving our elections are fair. The Wussy Dems are not exempt from this either, why they didn't scream "BLOODY F**KING MUDER!!" when that happened is beyond me.

Don't you get it? Even if there was no fraud, our democracy (ok call it a republic) is dead.
There is no way to prove our national elections are fair. Last time I checked that doesn't qualify as a democracy.
But don't listen to me, I believe in wacky conspiracy theories like...Evolution!

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pauldp]

139. I hear you H

You raise some good points but I like you am no expert. I think the point is as Freeman says, the numbers warrant serious investigation by the media, the pollsters and the politicians. You cannot deny the fact that given the numbers we have now, Fraud is one of several likely scenarios, and given the context in which we find ourselves:

-The Republicans Killed the paper trail for the e-machines in committee.

-There is evidence of massive voter disenfranchisement by Republicans.

-The Diebold Machine are as easy to get into as an old French Whore.

-Diebold has ties to the Republican Party

Many rational people see this as strong evidence that there is something seriously wrong. I have Republicans in my family that I love and care about. I take comfort in the fact that I know they had nothing to do with this. Because the Republican establishment killed the paper trail they must accept responsibility for much of the controversy surrounding this election, because if we could prove this election was fair this discourse would not be so heated.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

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[CatWoman]

157. just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true

At least 35 counties in the state of Ohio have chosen to use a touch screen voting machine manufactured by Diebold, a company based in North Canton, Ohio.
Diebold's Touch-Screen Voting Machine

Diebold's Vote-Taker
and Counter
The new voting systems will print out vote totals at the end of the election and can also transmit results by modem.

The Mill has found that, according to the Center for Responsive Politics' contribution database, Diebold gave $100,000 to the Republican National Committee in 2000 and additional sums between 2001 and 2002 totaling $95,000. Including Diebold CEO William O'Dell's personal soft-money contributions of $5,965 during that cycle, the total amount of contributions exceeds $200,000 for the period.

http://www.gristforthemill.org/010418diebold.html

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

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[myschkin]

164. nonsense

"Yes, the CEO of Diebold gave to the Republican party. Nobody disputes that. He has a political opinion."

God, something like that is unthinkable here in Europe... It's so ridiculous. What a shame for your land...

They have other tricks in Ohio: Giving the bad punch card machines to democratic countries and areas... Destroying the votes simply. a.s.l.

It's a shame that a republican gouverneur decides about the election and the vote counting process - unthinkable in Europe...

I think you could learn from some Third World and South American States... (Maybe you send some watchers there)

Hurin, you are untrustworthy now.

[myschkin]

166. No moral there in U.S.A.

By the way, it's open for each eyes that this is a business in return: I support you, you buy my voting machines, they will help you to win again (a.s.l., till 2040)

How dirty...

They always claim to stand for moral values - but how moral was it to slander Mc Cain in 2000 and Kerry in 2004 (a.s.l.)?

No moral at all.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[CupaJoe]

135. Even more interesting, an additional analysis by Shea ...

looks for a correlation between newly registered Democrats in Florida counties and the increase in reported Bush votes in 2004. One would not expect newly registered Democrats to behave as “Dixiecrats” -- i.e. to vote for a Republican presidential candidate. However, Colin Shea sent me a summary of his analysis, which shows that increases in Democratic registration correlated with increases in reported Bush votes in the e-voting counties in Florida.

I've been reading the same articles that everyone else has, and I believe this may be the most damning piece of evidence yet.

Let me know if you would like me to email you the analysis that Shea sent me. Also, please let me know if you have ideas about how to bring it to the attention of the people who need to see it. Thanks.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

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[CupaJoe]

140. Ok, Hurin, some good points there, but...

...the counties examined in this analysis are not only "Dixicrat" counties, whichever ones those are. Rather, all Florida counties were included in the tests for correlation. The correlation between increased Dem registration and increased Bush votes was found to exist for counties that have touch-screen voting. I don't believe those counties are the ones you would be likely to characterize as Dixicrat counties.

It seems an odd hypothesis to suggest that people who register as new voters in the current climate, and who take the trouble to identify themselves as Democrats, would then vote for Bush. (I can see some old codgers doing that -- the ones who've been registered for 30 years or whatever, but not new registrants.) One of the biggest reasons for new voter registration was that people wanted to vote against Bush.

If any fraud occurred, it would not have involved registering people in another party's name. It probably would have involved simply changing the votes, at the level of the individual touch-screen machine, of people who voted for the Democratic candidate.

Thank you for the criticism, Hurin. It will either disprove what Colin Shea claims to see in the data, or it will force him, me and others to make our case more robust.

[pauldp]

141. It's not just the fraud claims

It's the big picture.
See my earlier post. #139

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

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[pauldp]

143. Nazi Punks Fuck Off

Y'all need to go back to school.

[myschkin]

146. open for 'all' sides?

Sorry, Hurin, I think you are sitting in the White House and Karl Roves bringes you the coffee... Don't want to be paranoid, but this says me my ratio. You always want to 'destroy' the arguments, whithout any glance at a possible fraud (which i s possible, think on Nixon). Bush is somewhat like a saint for you?

Poll Ally, "The pre-election polls, the exit polls on election day, and results match up about as well as they possibly can."

No, take a look at http://www.electoral-vote.com . Almost in every state Bush's Vote is pretty above the average result of the polls.

This should be alarming: http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041112-112037...

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

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[TruthIsAll]

160. You are totally confused. I voted on a touchscreen machine in Florida.

No paper trail, either.

Yes, there are mostly optical scaM machines in FL. That's how Jebbie steals the votes.

Where do you get your info from?

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

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[myschkin]

163. Ok

Karl, I'm sure you deny that there was a fraud in Florida 2000.

You twist facts - Diebold "promised" Bush Ohio... ("who has ever voted Republican")

Next step of you: To make people ridiculous... Old (and dirty) republican strategy...


PS: What about the "huge" dicrepancy of Exit Polls and Votes in Georgia 2002?

[myschkin]

147. great news

CupaJoe, can you post the analysis of Shea or give a link (maybe on the main site)?

Thanks.

[CupaJoe]

149. Ok, I uploaded the document.

It's in MS Word. <http://www.oz.net/~kurt/reg_vs_turnout.doc >

I wasn't sure what you meant by "maybe on the main site," but if you want to put it somewhere else on DU, please go ahead.

[Merlin]

159. This crap was validly debunked days ago.

This is really old stuff. I personally analysed the data last week both in FL and Cuy County, OH.

In the FL case, the variance from registration occurs in a cluster of counties in the northern, bible-thumping part of the state, near Alachua. This is total redneck country. Turns out that in all the elections back to 1988 at least the same disparity has occurred: registered Democrats vote strongly Republican for President. So maybe all the elections have been rigged. Or maybe that's just the way these yokels operate.

In the Cuyahoga County case, this one never did pass the silliness test. Cuyahoga County is the one that gave Kerry an overwhelming plurality. What people questioned was that the total of the individual wards appeared to exceeed the total of registered voters. I personally looked intensively into this using data directly from the county election bureau. Turns out the data is correct, but the way it is presented is anachronistic. They subtotal many of the wards into their respective municipalities, but list the individual results of each. Thus many wards are double-counted. It was as simple as that. Their numbers check perfectly, and JK walked away from this county with a huge lead.


on edit: Forgot to mention, I couldn't get the original link to work and had to search for it. It's now at:
http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=10414

[99Pancakes]

165. Do you have a more specific link (or a new one)?

I clicked on yours (at start of thread) and there's no article. I get the Zogby site, but no article is there. It reads "Back to Zogby" and that's it.

[MsMagnificent]

167. I'm just getting a blank page

[holboz]

170. same here...

[badc0der]

169. also bears mentioning

that in Ohio 53 percent of voters that said they didn't decide who to vote for went for Bush. This is way outside the MOE for the Oct. 25 polling data. Either all of the pollsters were way off, or the final exit polls were cooked to fit the returns.