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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:26 PM
Original message
Does the Democratic Party need to change or not ?
Do we continue to be the same Party that sits on its ass as the other Party passes tax cuts for special interests as we are running $500 billion deficits at the same time a war is going on? Not only do they sit on their ass, some actually join in handing out the special interests tax breaks that everyone knew we could not afford and was reckless to the extreme. Is that the Party we want to continue to prop up and support? Or do we want to change?

If so, how do we change it? My suggestion is to tell those "Democrats" that voted with Bush on his taxcuts to not bother running the next time. We will not support your sorry unprincipled butts one more time. Pack up your suitcase and get the hell out of town. We do not need you. If we are going to lose, we will lose with someone that is at least willing to stand up for a principle. In my opinion, we need to change our Party from the bottom up.

For those that think this is only dividing our Party and will prevent us from winning in the future, I would say it is only postponing the inevitable. We have a bunch of "losers" in our Party - namely, those that vote with the right-wingers on such issues as the tax breaks for special interests.

Yeah, but 50% of the time they vote correctly, they will say. Well, that is not good enough. Keep packing. If I'm going to be with a losing Party, I want to be with one that stands for something.

PS...Sorry for the rant, but after watching Carville on MTP, it was impossible not to see how far gone our Party really is....They have no idea what they stand for.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Carville was great on MTP n/t
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joelogan Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. what did carville say on mtp?
What specifically did he say about how the party needs to change?
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Carville recommended
That the party get out of there seats when the GOP passes $150 billion in corporate tax breaks.

Carville said that if moral values means telling a single mother of two that she can't have an abortion Dems aren't going to do it.

Carville said that Democrats need to show alternatives, and come up with a theme. Carville suggested reform as a theme.

Basically, he's on the lets fight these guys side.
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joelogan Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. carville is pushing the same old shite

same old partisan crap, moral values crap, same old wedge issue crap etc etc. Fuck Carville and the cryptoRightwing horse he rode in on.

That aint change. THat is just spin. More of the same.

THe Rightwing rides behind an ECONOMIC AGENDA. And the Democratic party has just been following behind it for decades. Carville is NOT calling for repudiation of that economic agenda. Thus, when carville says he calls for change in the party, he lies. Where in there is Carville calling for a revision to the basic economic agenda of the Democrats?

Fuck carville with a rusty garden tool.

And why do Democrats fall for this?
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hell, yes!
If it will not become a real "party of the people", and fight tooth and nail for the common man against the corporate juggernaut, then it does not deserve to live -- period.

sw
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. It has been my assertion...
...that the constant "re-imaging" (or, moving to the "center", right) of the Party is WHY people have a perception of Democrats as "willing to say anything to get elected". That was the meme that Rove closed out the Bush campaign with. Evaluate his last week of campaign stops, he said that EVERY time. Coming out of an election, talking about yet another shift, more triangulation bullshit, just re-enforces that perception.
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joelogan Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Dem leadership didn't forget their values, they have same values as GOP
That is the problem--the Democratis leadership and the higher profile activists have basically the same values --ECONOMICALLY (taxes and trade and immigration and benefits) as the GOP leadership and activists. The top of the politcal hierarchy on both sides is isolated from a large segment of America.

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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes...We should put out a "statement of priciples"....
about what dems believe.

such as low taxes as long as things are paid for, support of 2nd amendment but against cancelling bkground checks...

and we ARE FOR VALUES THAT LOOK OUT FOR THE POOR, stop the return of coathanger abortions, etc.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. good idea, drdon....
Perhaps we could create it right here on DU ?? It might help Democrats understand what principles some of us feel the Party should stand for?
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Kentuck...i'm game.
d
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. I agree with you on the 2nd amendment
I read half a very long law review on the 2nd amendment and was convinced that it is an individual right but that it is not the absolute right the RWs claim it is.

RWs have some insane idea that liberals want to take their guns away. The only place I can think of that they are getting it is the liberal interpretation of the second amendment. Imagine how well the "libs are going to take away your Bible" hoax in WV would have worked if there were liberals out there saying the government has the power to take away people's Bibles. That's what he have with the second amendment.

If Dems would just say that as long as a citizen isn't insane or a criminal, the government CAN'T take their gun away, it would neutralize a big issue for the GOP.
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camby Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. I thought Carville was pathetic -
and his wife is a sap. She actually thinks the administration is ISSUES-oriented. Where the F** has she been? If we're not MAD AS HELL, then we can fugeddabout it. How do you think the pukes got where they are today? Because they decided they were fed up and they fought tooth and nail and took no prisoners. Until we get THAT pissed off, we might as well roll up our bags and go home.
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David Dunham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Guys. We are a congressional MINORITY. We can't stop the Repugs
Because the Dems are a congressional minority party, we cannot stop the Repugs from passing their legislation. That's a fact, and there is nothing we can do about it. However, we can speak out forcefully against the Repugs' proposals.
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camby Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. I agree with you. We are the minority.
Which is why there's no point in being mamby pamby about it. We might as well stand up for what we believe in and quit trying to please everybody. What was pathetic about Carville's performance was his egg-on-the face antics, as if we're all just friends goofing on what's happening.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. What you're saying is we can't get legislation passed...
...and you're right...but that has NOTHING to do with what WE NEED TO DO AS A PARTY.

- The Democratic party needs to stand on principle and not back down just to get along with the other side. If we lose...then we'll try harder next time in getting out the message.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. We need to articulate our platform a lot better. We need to
articulate that our platform is now and always has been a values based platform. We need to map out how our party differs from the repukes. We need to stop being so polite, and call the repukes on every turn when they lie and misrepresent the truth.
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BJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. Bill Trippi on "NOW with Bill Moyers"
You see Dean try to reform the Democratic Party from within. And the Democratic establishment crushes him. So I think what's gonna happen is the first initial response is gonna be to reform the Democratic Party from within. But if it's squelched again by President Kerry and other establishment Democrats, then what you're gonna see is that energy forced to the outside. And I believe by 2008, 2012, you'll see a real movement out there sort of spawn a new party even, spawned by the internet.

Link to PBS NOW with Bill Moyers transcript of Trippi interview 10-29-04


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Nimrod Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. Honestly, I think we need to lie our asses off
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 12:38 PM by Nimrod
::puts on flame-proof suit::

With the Reconstructionists having taken over the country and millions of people stupid enough to vote against faggots rather than for the leader of the free world, I think we need to become better liars. We're just not that good at it, it's not in our usual bag of tricks.

I think we should tell these morons whatever they want to hear. Then when it comes to actual policies don't change a single thing, unless it's to shove harder (quietly) to the left to offset the evil that has this country by the balls.

This method would be EXTREMELY frustrating and it would go against everything we believe in (fair play for starters), but short of open r*v**t and exile I don't see much of an alternative. Americans are just too fucking stupid and the Republicans are just too good at exploiting that. On our current path, we're just going to sink deeper into Christo-fascism until elections and the will of the people really ARE things of the past (although they practically are already).
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Isn't that what we've been doing?
"Hey, we're just like them...but BETTER!"

And that's worked so well.
:eyes:
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Nimrod Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Not enough
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 12:49 PM by Nimrod
We still have this weird idea in our head that we have to attempt to keep our promises rather than just lying and faking it.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Lying and faking it is not the answer. (eom)
NT
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Nimrod Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Probably not, but I'm feeling quite bitter today
I don't like the idea that the Republicans could put public executions of faggots on the ballot and through the exploitation of stupid people, a voting machine here and there, and lying their asses off get a 51% majority.

So no, I s'pose I didn't wake up feeling constructive today.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. no
there is nothing wrong with the democrats-it`s the "leaders" who want to change the mission in reaction to the republicans . i do feel we need better planning at the top. what the fuck????-"trading spouses" from fox? and we are worried about family values? morals? what the fuck....oh ok..we need to define the message to appeal to all classes of people-such as tree huggers and hunters all have a stake in environmental laws.
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choicevoice Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. look at it this way... Democrats started with a candidate that was
chosen from a large group of Dems. We ended up with Kerry who many of us in the beginning decided ABB and Kerry was ok. Rove did his best with the Swift boat liars and everything else they could throw at Kerry through the entire campaign. They rigged the voting and we STILL GOT 49% OF THE POPULAR VOTE.

I see no reason to go further to the right. We need to QUIT letting them define us. We need a candidate that will stand up and define his campaign PROUDLY without apology.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
20. No...Can't reason with uninformed.
What did Kerry in..Swift Boat liars..He was ahead until then..We are dealing with Brown shirts here..
That and Rove's strategy of rilling up the comfortable against the unmoral heathen, rift raft...
Question I heard ..Will the moralists come to their senses after they start loosing their jobs, homes etc..
They are not interested in economic issues until they are hit on the head with downsizing. Lack of health care is not an issue until it comes home to roost..I know..Circulating petitions on this issue. I heard said' " I have mine,not interested"
Kerry failed to ...1- rally his forces, because his connections with labor issues was not totally convincing..2- failed to rebut the Brown shirts of ROve's...3- since, Americans find economic issues too challenging..Be as mean spirited as the repugs..4- Fully explain how elitist and priviliged the Repug economic agenda is.
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Moderate Dem Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. You aren't gonna like this, but...
I think that the Democrats won on issues, but lost on perception, aided by Karl Rove.

We saw Michael Moore all over the country campaigning. We know that he drove a lot of mainstream voters to vote for Bush, after his message was propagandized by the right (the wacky conspiracy theories didn't help either).

Here's my point: If Michael Moore was everywhere polarizing the electorate, where the hell were the right wing nut jobs like Judge Roy Moore? My answer is that they were effectively silenced (for the time being) by the right, because Rove KNEW that they would in turn drive votes to Kerry. Does this mean that Rove was smarter than we were? probably...

We have to realize that the DU is on the FAR LEFT wing of the Democratic Party! People on the fringes of a party will never drive that party to the fringe, at best they can subtly nudge the party in the direction they want to go. The best thing that the DU can do is to quietly organize the DU's own base, and next time, take a hint from Karl Rove. Hide the wackos until afterwards if you really want to win.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. you can't possibly believe that
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:14 PM by Cheswick
You can't believe that there were people who said "oh, MM is campaigning for Kerry, I'll vote for bush".

On the other hand there were millions of new voters who went to the polls to vote against Bush because he is bush.

We don't need to move the party right or left we just have to stand for what is right. It is not right to fight a war about OIL and power. It is not right to take money from the poor and give it to the rich. It is not right to discriminate against gay people by writing 2nd class citizenship for them into the constituation.
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. If Springstein/Moore are extremists then mainstream is Bush.
Those who say Moore spouts conspiracy theories are just uniformed..he has great attribution..Moore grew up working class America and is Working class America..Those who criticize Moore's themes are just like middle America. Uniformed.
The disenfranchised need be given a reason to vote...The party is just pablem...Count me out..Think Democrats can win w/o the 20% liberal base, as starters..
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
23. Sure we must make adjustments.
We need what we want a candidate to have--- intelligence and charm.
If Barack Obama doesn't get side lined he shows a great deal of both..
We have a good hold on our desires.We have to fight with heart, intelligence, steadfastness, and charm.Church is not just a Republican stronghold. We are half of the congregation. We will show that Christan's give to the poor and love the weak. We support a government that has a heart and values freedom. Working together to advance international understanding we can be forceful without removing individual freedoms.Advancing the economy without evicting it's workers.Yes change is necessary.We know where we are going we just have to talk about the best path.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
26. Forget Left, forget Right, forget Center.
Forget Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, Republican.
Forget party politics.

This has become a fight of Right, Wrong. Good, Evil.

We need to start looking at the actions of the people, the individuals involved. We are being sold out on both sides.

We, the people need to rise up. If we do not, our country is hell bound to a wasteland of a 3rd world country.

It is becoming more and more obvious that our "Leaders" are doing no such thing. They, both liberal and Conservative, are selling us, and the world out for monetary gain and power.

This is not politics as usual, It is well known that the present administration are Fascist criminals. They will do anything it takes to stay in power. They are the Terrorists. They obviously enjoy the death and carnage they are causing.

So where are the indictments? Where are the investigations?

We must take control of our country back. We need all new leaders, from the top down.

The longer we wait the bloodier it will eventually get right here in the Good 'ol US of A.
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johngeraghty Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
28. democrats in power
one thing is for sure something needs to be done soon!
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. Hi johngeraghty!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. The Democrats do not need to change their values - That is what makes
a Democrat - Democrat.
What the party does need to do, is be more pro-active whith those values and less re-active.
The party leaders and candidates of the party in the future must be on the attack all the time. This is how KKKarl Rove and the Republican party beat Kerry this year. 5 years from now you will not be able to find anyone who admited they voted for bush.

The party needs to organize the grass roots now and keep working with the goal of taking back the white house in 2008, take the win at all costs attitude the rubukes have used effectively in the last 3 election.

Do not change the core values of the Democratic party.
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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
31. Red vs Blue article
http://www.thestranger.com/current/feature.html


It's time to state something that we've felt for a long time but have been too polite to say out loud: Liberals, progressives, and Democrats do not live in a country that stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific, from Canada to Mexico. We live on a chain of islands. We are citizens of the Urban Archipelago, the United Cities of America. We live on islands of sanity, liberalism, and compassion--New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, Seattle, St. Louis, Minneapolis, San Francisco, and on and on. And we live on islands in red states too--a fact obscured by that state-by-state map. Denver and Boulder are our islands in Colorado; Austin is our island in Texas; Las Vegas is our island in Nevada; Miami and Fort Lauderdale are our islands in Florida.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
33. needs to get back to roots minus the racism.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
35. The Democratic Party must return to their working-class roots
These DLC Repubicans-lite, who actually are moles, are undermining and destroying our party from within. And I think it's a deliberate attempt on their part to alienate the working-class white majority, who should be our largest constituency, in favor of the pursuit of the corporate cash cow, the Almighty Dollar. As a result, the only way to tell the New Dems from the Repugs is by their stand on divisive wedge issues. That further alienates the working class Dems, who either end up voting Repuke or dropping out of the political process altogether because they no longer have a party they can call home.

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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
37. Democrat versus Republican = false dichotomy
The real struggle is between predatory corporatists and the vast mass of humanity.
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