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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:52 AM
Original message
FRAME THE DEBATE Group proposal
I see lots of interest in making use of George Lakoff's ideas on "framing the debate" as outlined in his book "Don't Think of an Elephant."

I'd be very interested in starting a DU Group devoted to discussion of the issues presented, whether one has read the book or not.

My proposed Mission Statement:

The "Frame the Debate" Group will study and discuss ways to present Democratic Ideals and Policy in more effective way to the general public.

I certailny welcome any input on fine tuning the mission statement and any dieas you have concerning the group.

I know anyone who's read even a portion of the book (as I have yet to read the entire book) is anxious to put its ideas into practice! It's very inspiring.

I repeat: reading the book is NOT essential; the ideas are very easily adapted.
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am surprised there isn't one already
Walt Starr and several others have been trying to get discussions started.

Sign me up, please!
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searchingforlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Me too.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
51. Frame the Debate group is up here:
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For PaisAn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. By far one of the most important missions we must undertake
Count me in!
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. Interesting and worthwhile proposal
IMO......

Are you just interested in loyal democrats for this group or are progressives and liberals of all stripes welcome? Or , for that matter, conservatives......?

Stupid question:

Which issues, whose issues? When you say Democratic Ideals and Policies do you mean as put forth by the Democratic Party as in their planks for future elections or do you mean in general as perceived by all concerned folks here?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Room for all, my friend.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 11:06 AM by blondeatlast
I was referring to the Party, as I'm a loyalist (a pissed off one though!), but as I said, I welcome suggestions, and yours is an excellent one.

Of course you are welcome, as I think the ideas are what's needed to break the hold the RW has on the country right now.
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. As a loyalist, you might run into resistance here.
I'm loyal to a group of liberal ideas, not to a party apparatus as such. I'd vote for a Republican if they were permitted to have liberal ideas and to express them. (A long time ago, they did.)

While I think the Democratic Party is the best delivery apparatus for liberal ideas, the current leadership shows they're pretty incompetent at delivering and serving those ideas. If a new Democratic leadership, one with new ideas and resolve, takes over the party, I'd support them - unless they, too, turn out to be incompetent.

I think this idea would be good to reform and reinforce the entire Left, not necessarily one party. It's the political party's job to represent its members' views. The first job is to get those views before the public, and to make them not afraid of those ideas. Then show that those ideas are preferable to the ones offered by the Right. Then, and only then, can you approach the Democratic Party and get them to serve that constituency.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. As I said, I'd rather make this about ideas, not party politics.
Whatever it takes, we have a challenge ahead and we need a sort of loose unity to defeat the TheoCons right now (wish I could say the term is original, but I got it off of Daily Kos!).
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. where and when?
PM me as you will, Im available, me and my limited brainpower.....I'm assuming we will move this discussion to another place.....
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
38. I've made a request for a DU Group.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 04:13 PM by blondeatlast
When I made the request, I had only the ten requisite DUers in this thread, and it's growing like Topsy!

I'll make sure everyone on the thread knows if and when the group is off and running.

Look further down in the thread as well, apparently there is a group outside of DU doing this as well.

Post #31 has the info.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
49. the purpose is...
To frame democratic ideals in language that will resonate with people who will benefit from those ideals (i.e. most of america)

We need to talk abou:

Safety
Education
Health
Freedom

In language that evokes feelings of empowerment among the people.

For years, republicans have been framing the debate to evoke images of fear...we need to reframe the debate to evoke a nurturing and positive family model.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. I like that idea.
Count me in. I haven't yet read the book, though I've read some online articles by him and will be reading it soon. I think it's a very good idea for a group.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. I'm in!
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. Count me in.
(I have a star, coming Monday??)

IMO this purpose is the best use of DU resources.
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cidliz2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. Include me
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. Frame the debate. Easy. Take every single talking point of these
bastards and show them, and I mean show them, that not only do we have decency and morality on our side, but also intelligence, integrity, social values, and a love of freedom and the rights all people have a right to enjoy.

They want to talk Christian values, well folks, we share those values but in an open, inclusive way. They want to take talk about the Ten Commandments, show them that we believe that they mean what they say. When we see 'thou shalt not kill' we mean that thou shalt not kill period. Not that you can pick and chose who deserves to live and who deserves to die. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Point out that ever word that comes from the lips of the bush* cabal are grounded in lies. You get the picture.

For those who do not share the Christian faith, a major point needs to be made that whatever God or Higher Power you believe in, the roots of you beliefs are exactly the same. You beliefs are based in justice for everyone. Don't let them exclude you because you don't believe some in red neck greedy bastard who says he has a direct pipeline to God. Don't let them spread the propaganda that you are pagan/heathen/sinful fools with morals and ideals. Show them that you are the ones taking the high road. That your beliefs include the message that all people are entitled to respect and carry within themselves the right to respect. Don't let them lock you out of the 'morality' issue.

We need to defeat this 'fear' thing. Life if worthless is you spend every waking minute of it being afraid. Yeah, 9/11 was a bad thing, but there is no reason that event should be allowed to influence every day of our lives. In fact, scream it loud and clear we have lived through worse, and come out of it intact and strong. The Civil War, Pearl Harbor, both World Wars. We only came through those events because we held fast to our beliefs that were passed down to us from the men who founded this country. They fought and died so that we could enjoy the freedoms granted to us by the Constitution. How hypocritical and phony that because of 9/11 we should cower and quake and cry.

The office of the President of the United States is another issue. That is not a position comparable to that of a dictator of the third world country or the old Soviet Union. A true leader is one who would defend the ideals of freedom and free speech. What we have in the White House is the antithesis of that man.

The economy. Well, they've done really well hiding the facts from their believers, up to now. Well, bush* is in (apparently) for another four years, and now they'll find out what his economic theories really are. The freaks and fundies are going to see that just because they voted for they guy they are not going to receive any special treatment. Their lives are going to go down the proverbial poop chute just like everybody elses. Their children are going to grow up as a poorly educated bunch of people who won't be able to even glimpse the "American dream", it will just be a legend, a story from once upon a time.

Turn every piece of right wing propaganda against them and claim it as our own.

Have a lot more to say, but I have to go.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. But, I gotta ask, are you in?
I'm at six, do I have a seventh?
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Of course. What's next. I am damn sick and tired of being portrayed
as belonging to a party of no morals, some arrogant bastards even have the nerve to call us "godless". Now I do believe in God, but I also understand that maybe some others don't. So what? The people that I'm thinking of do have a very deep rooted belief in moral values and justice. They just don't happen to see the root of those values as being from the same place I do. And there are others who believe, but in a different way. All Gods are one God, all truths are one truth.

I am sick and tired of having the loonies and crack pots who's agenda is anything but fair trying to tell me that I don't love my country, that I am Godless and evil, and that they have the answers to what ails our country. Because anyone with one ounce of common sense will soon see that their answers are exactly WHAT IS WRONG WITH OUR COUNTRY.

Shit, I've lived in Omaha, Nebraska almost all of my life. I lived here during the Cold War when there was a real possibility of bombs being thrown from all directions. And I was sitting here on Ground Zero, the frigging home of the Strategic Air Command at Offutt Air Force Base. I was scared for a lot of years of my life. But then one day I realized that fear was ruining my life. And what better place to be if the bombs started flying? At least the end would be quick and clean. I wouldn't take days or months to die from nuclear exposure. And then I talked to other people. And they weren't afraid either. In fact, it just made them more and more determined to tackle the wrongs that made our destruction possible. Being afraid every day of your life not only makes you stupid, it empowers the fear mongers. And that is exactly what they depend on. There has never been a better example of the propaganda of fear tactics than we are seeing right this minute in our country. And the stupidity of people is amazing. We're taking away the freedoms from our citizens so that we can force them down the throats of others? What the hell?

Just let me know what you want.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. dupe (why do I keep getting error messages today?)
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 12:24 PM by acmavm
.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Let's do it. Heard a woman refer to war as "military abortions"
on Now with Bill Moyers. Her point was that dozens, hundreds of pregnant women are being killed in Iraq.

She also argued that being against abortion is not "pro-life", it's "pro-birth" - the movement having nothing at all to do with the lived life of the unborn.
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For PaisAn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Saw her on Now
She made an excellent point and it fits in exactly with this reframing effort we're discussing. These people are pro-birth but not pro-life. They have no problem with the death penalty, killing innocent civilians - pregnant or not, sending soldiers off to die for a lie, forcing children to live in poverty and without health insurance and the list goes on. That's NOT pro-life.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Post birth military abortions.
How many American soldiers and Iraqi citizens have had their lives prematurely ended by this illegal war?
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
16. Like to be part of discussion.
BILL OF RIGHTS Party( aka) USA for DEMOCRACY
focus for the Democratic Platform
How many fundamentalists can argue with this basis for our Republican Democracy?
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. I'm in. PHOTOS PHOTOS PHOTOS OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL PHOTOS OIL OIL
Fight fascism with PHOTOS of the HORROR in the OIL WAR.

That's how you make Americans "visualize" the oil war in it's REAL form, not the false word matrix.

THIS IS WHY THEY HATE US, NOT FOR 'OUR FREEDOMS'

(I saw this as a huge poster on a Chicago street with the caption "this is not the enemy"

The blood is already spilled and merely showing it in photos has the same cogent effect as the actual violence.

There are many sources for reality-based photos to use. Like this-
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm

Our brains are hard-wired to feel stress when we see others in stress.
Use this tool to illustrate the bloody truth and get our Fallow Merkins to react. Remember the Kim Phuc in Vietnam photo? It is iconic and the reason the Pentagon doesn't let us see what they do to people anymore because we wouldn't stand for it.

Now that the Pentagon has issued a manual on fighting insurgencies for the first time since Vietnam, we very much need a manual on how to combat fascism before the steel doors shut tight even if Kerry is allowed to take his victory.

We must get smarter about countering the propaganda and reaching the hearts and minds of our Fallow Merkins. 'Persuasion technology' is how Nazi bastards steered the US population into the mess we're in. Learn what works and why or keep riding in the handbasket!

George Lakoff's work on 'framing' issues in language that reach the primal parts of the brain:
1)self-protection
2)protection of whatever is defined as family.
3)the value of hard work to achieve #1 and #2 called 'discipline'

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_...

Understand psychology, history, language themes, and media messengers who will help save us from the Mayberry Machiavellis and the Fuelocracy.

The military calls this 'force magnification.' That is, getting help from a few important individuals who can get the cooperation of the larger population.

Very cogent photos and pamphlets need to be everywhere all the time, malls, churches, highway overpasses, all the places where we can still move freely to reach our Fallow Merkins.
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searchingforlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I wish my sister could be forced to see this photo.
I don't know how anyone could look at it and not feel shame.
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. Oh my god.....
Every single Bush voter should be forced to look at that photo every single day for the next four years....I am crying and am not ashamed of these tears, tears of rage and tears of compassion....
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm in.
I have pretty decent communications skills and would be glad to work on write-ups for submissions to media sources. Let me know what you need to do.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. I've submitted a request in AtA, I'll post as soon as I know the
outcome.

Keep this bookmarked.
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Poor Richard Lex Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. maybe a separate forum?
I would really like to be a part of this.

btw is this why they called the founding fathers the "framers" of the Constitution. Shouldnt we look to the original "frames" of the constitution to start with?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. If it gets big, perhaps we can get to that point.
They've just arranged to have discussion groups in the last week, so we'll see how it goes.

You will need a donor star to take part, if it's a problem, PM me.
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Poor Richard Lex Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. thanks for the info blonde
unfortunately I dont have enough posts to PM you. I will see what I can do to get a donor star
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Poor Richard Lex Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. hey look at that
Im now a one star DUer sweeet

how do we sign up for the groups?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Once it is set up, just jump in and participate.
Still waiting for Administration to okay it and set it up.

I thought it would take a couple of days to get enough interest, but apparently this is a hot topic!

Hope to see you there in a day or so. I'll let everyone know when it's set up by posting a thread.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Wasn't me, honestly, but there's an awful lot of really nice DUers!
Whoever ponied up, thanks!
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. I have not read Lakoff (though i plan to). But a "frame" typically refers
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 04:22 PM by jefferson_dem
to the way in which information is presented. It's been said that, in politics, image is everything. It's part substance and part marketing (of concepts). Framing speaks to how issues or positions are packaged for public consumption within particular conceptual frameworks.

For our purposes, it is important that we "re-frame" the political debate such that our values, our issues, are reflected in a more favorable light.

At least, that's my understanding.

Of course, summoning the "frames" of the founders would be a fine place to start...
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. You already have the basics of his argument...
I'm guessing you've studied at least some linguistics, as I have?

some of my notes already:

"hard work" vs. "responsibility" as in the strict father figure

"flip-flop" vs. responsibility for choices (we failed misrerably here)
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I am in political science and have done some research in areas of
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 06:41 PM by jefferson_dem
media effects. Framing, from my perspective, goes beyond words to also include various tools of imagery.

True. We failed miserably in the "war of perceptions" this election season. We know that many of the critiques lobbed against Kerry were totally untrue and unfair but the result was the same. We lost. Still, there are valuable foundations available to build on.

Responsibility is good. This is a theme the RW wackos have used over and over. Sure would be nice pummel them with the same. I also really like the idea of "rewarding work not wealth."

I look forward to the discussion. And the book is definitely on my list.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
24. I'm in too. Great idea!
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:36 PM by jefferson_dem
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
26. Me, too!!
I'll watch for this one. Great idea! :hi:
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btrflykng9 Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
29. Very Interesting...I think the person to look to is...
I think that is exactly what we should be doing, in my opinion the person to look to for that is Barrack Obama (sorry if I spelled the name wrong here) the newly elected Senator for Illinois. He knows how to frame our differences by drawing out our similarities. His politics are less about attacking and more about changing and unifying.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. Hi btrflykng9!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
30. I wanted this whole FORUM named "Frame the Debate"!
Since Perception is currently first, with Reality running a poor second, I think this is the most important thing after THOSE DAMN MACHINES that needs fixing!!
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ZombieNixon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
31. For all interested in using Lakoff's ideas to frame the debate...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:56 PM by ZombieNixon
PM jab105, she's started an online group. Give her your e-mail and tell her you want to join the Lakoff group. The more people we have, the stronger we will be.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
32. Count me in
I LOVE the whole idea. I'll get a star, something I've been meaning to do anyway. Language IS the key.
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SleepingDragon Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
34. Excellent Idea. Should read the book though to get the most out of it.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'm in
This is the single most important thing we need to do
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
44. NYT on Lakoff here - -
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mulderig Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
45. Count me in.
Great idea.

Mary.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Hi mulderig!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
46. GROUP IS UP AND RUNNING! Link:
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
50. Hi blonde...
I'm working with jab105 and calimary to craft a Mission Statement for a forum like this. We should all join forces. As ZombieNixon says, the more of us there are, the stronger we'll be.

NGU.


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