They didn't steal the election - they did a better job in getting out

[ohioan]

their vote.

As long as we wring our hands and insist that they stole it and refuse to acknowledge that they kicked our butts on the ground game, we'll never be able to beat them.

They got their people to the polls by appealing to what they knew would resonate with them. Instead of screaming fraud, let's figure out what we need to do to get more people to the polls than they do next time.

[Walt Starr]

1. I agree, continuing down the tinfoil road is a recipe for disaster.

eom

[ContinentalOp]

11. A recipe for disaster? Give me a break. How could it get much worse?

That's pretty funny coming from someone who pursued a dead-end road involving some military ribbons in a photo that nobody cared about.

[ohioan]

17. It could get worse if we don't learn from our mistakes, assume that we

have no room for improvement and focus all of our energies on bitching and moaning about how nefarious and unbeatable they are.

We lost this year. We don't have to lose next time. And we don't have to allow whether we win or lose to depend solely upon their behavior. If we think they're going to steal 100,000 votes, then we need to make sure we get 150,000 votes. We have to play smart, not whine and cry and give them this kind of power over us.

[Walt Starr]

34. I pursued it all the way to the end

and found the obscure regulation that identified the option of wearing it.

I didn't blink when I found the truth. I came here and posted it immediately.

:shrug:

I gave it a shot.

[AnIndependentTexan]

2. WRONG PAY ATTENTION THEY STOLE IT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1318200&mesg_id=1318200

[AuntPatsy]

49. I am surprised that so few get that your way is the way se should

all be thinking....we got lax on this last election or this would not have been possible, are we going to sit back and allow this practice of silencing the majority of Americans to be a national pastime?

[mbee]

3. That is just not true. They spoiled votes before they were ever cast

by removing legitimate voters from the rolls and they challenged minority voters and they hacked the diebold machines in some of the red states. We are not stupid so peddle this nonsense somewhere else.

[ohioan]

12. Yes - they did many of these things . . .

And we still could have beaten them, despite this, if our ground game had been as good as theirs.

[Cocoa]

4. if people believe there's fraud

then merely asserting there wasn't isn't going to change their minds.

I think it's too early to say either way, I haven't read any of the reports about it because I think any report issued this fast is probably biased and therefore useless.

The exit poll stuff is a red flag for sure, and I'm becoming more and more skeptical about the "values" stuff...

[AnIndependentTexan]

5. read and then make judgement. If you can honestly read this and convience

me then I will listen
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1318200&mesg_id=1318200

[ibegurpard]

6. Maybe

or maybe not.
I don't object to continuing investigations of auditless voting software. I've seen enough to convince me that there are very worrisome problems.

[ohioan]

7. It makes sense to look into it - but it's crazy for us to insist that the

only reason we lost is fraud. The DNC blew it on some important fronts - including 1) completely underestimating the strength and effectiveness of the Republican Get Out the Vote effort; 2) underestimating how significantly the Bush campaign's "moral values" crap was resonating with voters; and 3) assuming that black voters would automatically vote Democratic without taking into account how effective the Faith Based Initiative and the gay marriage issue were in peeling off black ministers and their congregants.

If we just assume that the Democrats' strategy would have guaranteed a win absent Republican fraud, we're setting ourselves up to get our butts kicked again in 2006, and 2008 and 2010 and beyond.

[ibegurpard]

23. I agree

We need to rebuild the party from the ground up. That means building the infrastructure, relationships, and means to get out our message starting at the local level. The national party has neglected this for far too long in favor of chasing big money donors to its detriment.

[Mick Knox]

8. Agree, the tin foil bs

is just an excuse to whimper and wallow and coward.

We got beat, but its easier to pretend they stole it.

[patdem]

9. No they did not...in a mostly democratic precenct the lines

were VERY long..and there have NEVER been lines in those presincts by anyone who has voted there for many years. And in the rich republican precints it was walk in vote...walk out....

[ohioan]

13. Those are broad generalizations

For example, in overwhelmingly Republican Hamilton County, the lines in some African American precincts were longer because the GOTV effort was so effective that blacks were voting in record numbers, so the lines were longer. The lines were further slowed down by the fact that many of these were first-time voters who needed help with the process and the poll workers were very attentive, but it meant that things took longer. The Democratic Party, Kerry-Edwards campaign and outside groups monitored those polls to make sure that the lines moved as quickly as possible and that people stayed to vote. People waited patiently and voted in record numbers - Democratic turnout was 20% higher than in 2000. But Bush's Get Out the Vote effort was on the ground since last year and they got out every Republican voter they could, increasing their 2000 turnout by about 5% - more than enough to beat Kerry.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

27. patdem , read my post #16 and the response

[TexasSissy]

10. I don't know. I really don't. And neither do you. Ordinarily, I'd say

you're right. And I said what you said, at first. But the more I think about it, the more it strikes me that the result doesn't fit the data and polling we had before the election. That Bush would get 8 million more votes than 2000? Maybe.....maybe......but somehow I just don't think so.

I at least think it would be worth checking it out, if that's possible.

[ohioan]

31. I agree that it's worth checking

But, on its face, it's not all that crazy. Bush has governed like a crazy man, instilling fear, hatred and distrust in voters, ginning up his base and making people think that only he can save them. It's been a sinister strategy, but it worked.

On Sunday night, Bush held a rally for about 30,000 people in Cincinnati. As the rally ended, Kerry people stood on street corners waving signs, etc. The Bush people driving from the event were so hopped up, angry, mean and hateful. They were pumped and ready to get out the vote for Bush - he had gotten them so riled up, it was scary. Interestingly, Bush's margin of victory in that area was about 24,000 votes - just about the number of people he had in that stadium that night. The Bush campaign knows how to get out the vote and they did it.

In the past, Republicans have been terrible at GOTV, but this time, they took full advantage of incumbency, certainty, time and money. They've known for the past 4 years who their nominee was going to be, so they were able to start their GOTV effort years ago. For the past three years, they've been sending in their operatives, setting up shop and running their GOTV like a business in their key states. They even used multi-level marketing like Amway to generate volunteers and coordinate interaction with their potential voters.

In past Republican campaigns, state and county organizations were free to assemble their local efforts any way they liked, the assumption being that they knew more about their own communities than someone in Washington. But now the Bush campaign was sending an altogether different message; word had come down from the national headquarters that Ohio's 88 county chairmen were to form full steering committees in each county by February, and then they needed to show proof that they were busy recruiting a statewide total of 51,000 volunteers, including captains for each of the state's 12,000 voting precincts.
. . .

Traditionally, it was the Democrats who went door-to-door, registering voters while the G.O.P., pressing its significant financial advantage, relied on 30-second ads and paid mailings. But Rove came away from the 2000 election convinced that Bush would have won by a comfortable margin had it not been for Democratic ground forces. (Although Bush won Ohio, his commanding lead in the polls -- 10 points on the final weekend -- drained away to a margin of fewer than 4 points on Election Day, when Democrats turned out in force.) During the midterm elections of 2002, Republicans successfully tested their own turnout strategy, which they called the 72-Hour Project. For 2004, Rove's team has devised the most ambitious grass-roots model in the party's history.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/25/magazine/25GROUNDWAR.html

The Kerry campaign just couldn't match this.

They didn't steal the vote in Ohio - they pounded it out of their base.

[TexasSissy]

36. I see. I see. Then why didn't the polls pick up on the results of their

efforts? A concerted effort on the part of Bush supporters NOT to say they were voting for Bush? Confusing.

But geez. Makes me want to volunteer with my local chapter. I just might do that.

[Lex]

14. Why is examining the 2004 and getting energized for 2006

presented as mutually exclusive?

If it is true that voting impropriety happened in 2004, then how does 2006 matter? They can just rig it up again.

[ohioan]

15. OK - then just give up, roll over and play dead. We will NEVER beat them

because they will always cheat us. We have no power to overcome their evil. We're DOOMED, I say. DOOMED!!!

[DancingBear]

21. Why don't you answer the question posed above?

Instead of playing "I'm a Democrat" - poorly, I might add.

[Lex]

25. That is CLEARLY *NOT* what my post said.

I said:

We should make sure there were, in fact, no voting improprieties with the computer voting

AND

Get ready and prepared for the fight in 2006.


We should fight the fight on every front and I was suggesting the OPPOSITE of rolling over and playing dead.

[GreenArrow]

26. if we couldn't beat them this year

running against this "president," there is little reason to expect that we will beat them anytime soon, especially when they have another four years to perfect and consolidate their already substantial hold on the elements of power.

They will always cheat us, when that is required. That needs to be accepted as a given. These are people without shame, without remorse, withour scruple.

[ohioan]

51. Yes. They're unbeatable. We're DOOMED!

[TimeToGo]

18. We have to fight fraud

Look, if it isn't true it isn't true. But we don't know that yet.

If it is true -- even if the cheated numbers weren't enough to throw the election -- the word must get out there. I am sick and tired of this group of people who claim to be deontological moral thinkers doing whatever works to get themselves what they want. If they cheated, then I want the world to know. I want Bush to have to apologize to the country for his people. And if it is bad enough for him to have to step down or face the consequences.

If it isn't true, then it isn't true. But we don't know that yet. If it is, in fact, being investigate, then fine. If not a little noise might help.

I do agree, that we have to be careful that we don't appear to be the political equivalent of UFO spotters -- but . . .

[ohioan]

32. I fully agree

We have to fight fraud and do everything we can to make sure it doesn't happen again. I worked my ass off on Voter Protection and protecting our voters from Republican challenges and other tactics. But we also have to be smart and not allow ourselves to get carried away in a frenzy of accusations. If we insist that the ONLY reason we lost is Republican fraud, we will completely lose sight of how effective their ground game has become. And they'll kick our butts every time.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

16. voter suppression is fraud...single mom gets off work early (4:00PM) goes

and picks up her children from daycare, feeds them a quick supper and drags them with her to her polling place...has one in a stroller and one in hand and waits in line to vote for 6 hours with the children(because she has no choice)...doesn't get to vote because AT 10:00PM the 4 year old is crying, tired and wants to go home and go to sleep and the baby needs a fresh bottle and diaper changes...single mom crys and leaves her spot in line knowing she will not get to cast her vote for John Kerry......

....another man gets in line behind her at 4:30PM he chats with this single mom and others on the line, sipping his coffee and he tries to keep this womens 4 year old from crying and entertained...but to no avail...after the single mom leaves the line this man finnally gets to cast his vote for John Kerry at 3:35 AM!!!!

WHAT ELDERLY PERSON COULD ENDURE THIS KIND OF ABUSE BY STANDING IN 11 TO 14 HOUR LINES TO VOTE FOR JOHN KERRY AND THEIR SS AND RX RIGHTS????

fucking hours in a voting line....don't tell me "they didn't steal it"!@!!

THEY SUPPRESSED THE VOTING...PERIOD!!!! AND THAT IS FUCKING FRAUD!

[ohioan]

24. Sorry, but that's not fraud.

Nor is it voter suppression.

By the way - most Board of Elections regulations permit elderly people to cut the line or require they be allowed to sit while waiting. And, of course, YOU could always allow them or the woman with the baby to cut in front of you if you're that concerned that she will have to wait too long.

But, seriously, the fact that huge numbers of people turned out to vote and, thus, caused long lines is NOT voter suppression or fraud. I personally monitored many polling places as a Voter Protection attorney and found that, while the lines were long in every single Democratic precinct - white, black, rich and poor - people patiently waited in line, the poll workers worked their asses off to make sure that the lines moved well, the equipment worked and that everyone got a chance to vote.

We also found that the Republican precincts had the same problem - the lines were long and often slow moving, depending upon the time of day. But the Bush GOTV effort was more effective than ours - they got more of their people out to vote than we did. Plain and simple.

[LisaL]

45. Where are the huge numbers of extra votes then?

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[ohioan]

57. They're there. The problem is that Bush got out MORE voters

in the rural areas and thus, trumped our newer, higher numbers. Unfortunately, we did not anticipate this, which we should have, since many of these voters voted back in 2002. That's one of the reasons their precincts were better able to handle the influx.

Again, I'm not saying that the Republicans didn't pull all kinds of crap on us. But everything was not the result of a vast conspiracy.

[Pastiche423]

19. Pay attention much?

[GreenArrow]

20. they did both

not mutually exclusive. They got their people out, and they cheated where necessary.

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. There was the same denial here on DU in 2002

After the GOP gained seats in the House and Senate. Some people believe their own spin so much that they just cannot comprehend that the a majority may not agree with their worldview.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Ding Ding Ding

The problem with folks on the left and right is that they only talk to other folks on the left and right and get their own views shouted back at them therefore they think everybody thinks like them...

I can't stand Chimpy but I meet people every day who worship the asshat...

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brettdale]

30. disagree 100%

I disagree 100%, it was stolen and we did a brillant job in getting people out.

[lasttrip]

33. bullsh*t. later. nt

[LisaL]

35. Well, when the guy who makes the machines says

he will deliver OH to Bush, one can't help but wonder how did he was planning to do it?

[ohioan]

54. Those machines were not used in Ohio...

so "the guy who makes the machines" had nothing to do with it.

[m berst]

37. That is Rove's strategy

"They didn't steal the election - they did a better job in getting out their vote."

That is what they are saying from the Bush camp. You bet. They found millions and millions of "fundies" under rocks and hidden in caves and got them out to the polls to vote against gays. Sure they did.

Common sense people. Common sense. That is all it takes to see through this one. For this to be true, you have to invalidate and reject everything you know and everything you have seen.

You do not have to know the whole story, nor do you need to "prove" any "conspiracy theory" to know that things are not as they are being presented to us.

Never mind Bush being put back into office for a second term. The REALLY big win for the Bush people is to get Democrats to stop being suspicious of them.


on edit - typos

[ohioan]

38. Rove strategy is for us to be so caught up in insisting that they cheated

that we won't notice how good their get out the vote effort has become.

I was there on the ground and saw it myself. We were so distracted with watching out for their dirty tricks (of which there were plenty) we completely missed the fact that they were developing a hell of a ground game. The result was that they cleaned our clocks before we knew what hit us.

As long as we continue to insist that the ONLY reason they won was that they stole it and refuse to admit our own shortcomings, we will be in serious trouble. If we fail to recognize that our get out the vote effort is no longer better than theirs and make some major changes in our strategy and implementation, they will kick the crap out of us fair and square.

Yes, we need to root out and expose all of their wrongdoing. But we've got to do more than that if we don't want to spend the next generation in the wilderness. We have some serious work to do and focusing all of our attention on crying about them cheating won't get us where we need to go.

[omnithrope]

39. I agree.

nt

[GRLMGC]

40. Yes they did

but we also need to get rid of these electronic voting devices. Our loss was a combination. I don't think it was stolen but the fact that there are ANY stories about voting problems really troubles me.

[ohioan]

43. Ohio does not use electronic voting machines

[LisaL]

44. Wrong.

[ohioan]

50. Oh, really? Your proof, please?

Although a handful of precincts use electronic voting, most of the state uses punch cards or optical scan systems.

[Willy Lee]

41. They DID steal it. No foil hats necessary.

[Streetdoc270]

42. The did do a better job here in Eastern NC

I have been a registered Dem. for 15 years, I filled out the volunteer form on JK's web site 3 times sent money twice and ordered 2 bumperstickers from them.

To date I received
2 recorded messages from Laura Bush asking for my vote
2 messages from NASCAR drivers asking me to vote for Bush
1 Message from Richard Burr
5 peices of mail telling me which Rep to vote for and why

0 Calls from the Kerry Campain
1 Piece of mail from the Democrats
0 Bumperstickers

on top of that I had to find Kerry HQ on my own so I could finally volunteer. Plus it was in the neighboring county, when I showed up for my county's publiclly announced Democratic party meeting I sat in an empty parking lot for 30 mins when no one showed up and I am still waiting for a return call from my county's party chair when I called him in March! I am thinking about starting my own chapter of the Democratic party in Pender county...

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Though I think votes were stolen and suppressed, I also think

it should never have been close enough for them to steal. We should have had a landslide of epic proportions. We let the Republican noise machine define the terms of this election and we spent most of our time defending ourselves against their talking points.

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. It wasn't about GOTV, it's that we need to

FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[nickinSTL]

48. I have a real tough time believing that

Ok, maybe in the 11 states that had gay marriage on the ballot, but what about the other 39?

I just don't believe that many people came out to stand in line and vote for a failed incumbent. Regardless of the hate and fear mongering designed to gain their votes.

[Nederland]

52. Amen

Time people around here admitted the truth.

[ohioan]

53. The truth hurts.

It's so much easier to believe that, no matter what we did on our side, the outcome was inevitable. Makes the loss easier to bear.

But it's also a cop-out.

[Bridget Burke]

55. Another person telling us to shut up.

Give us some more details on the Republican GOTV program. And the Bush rally. You seem to know a lot....

We're not screaming fraud. We're just saying the word. Some of us are getting the numbers together.

[ohioan]

56. Who told you to shut up?

I'm merely suggesting that you focus on something constructive. If you choose not to and would rather wring your hands about something over which you have no control rather than working to figure out ways to do things better next time, that's your business.

Here's a little information about the Republican GOTV activity:

Back in October of 2000, Gore's internal polls said that he would lose Ohio by 12 points. So he pulled out, shifting his resources to other states. But the state and local GOTV effort continued and on election day, Bush won the state by a mere 3.4 points.

This shook the hell out of Rove and the Republicans. They knew that the Democrats had always had a better ground game to get out the vote, but realized that this would be a real problem for them if they didn't do something about it. So, starting in 2001, they began studying and figuring how to do it better. They created a multi-level marketing strategy - often compared to Amway - and started recruiting people to send into states. They did a dry run of their system in the 2002 and found it worked great. They tweaked it and moved forward with it. Even before we had a nominee, they were up and running in their key states.

By the time the Democrats began dispatching GOTV operatives into the states this summer - WAY too late - the Republican operation was so tight and smooth that it put us to shame. But we still thought that our old way of doing it - with a bunch of college kids, local activists, labor, black ministers and the like, would prevail. It didn't.

This is borne out by the fact that the battleground states that Kerry won had better operations, with more mature political types running them. For example, Tony Podesta, a long time political strategist who knows what he's doing, ran Pennsylvania and pulled it out for Kerry. Many other states where we lost had people with very little experience calling the shots. On the other hand, ALL of Bush's states had high-level, experienced political operatives, most of them trained by Karl Rove who ran their state operations like a business, not like a bunch of kids putting on a talent show out in the barn. It made a HUGE difference.

For more info, check this out: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/25/magazine/25GROUNDWAR.html

What the Bush campaign did was not a secret, it wasn't a special ops, undercover operation. It was done out in the open for all to see. But the Democrats were cocky, thinking that we ALWAYS have a better ground game and figuring there was NO WAY the Republicans could come in and beat us at what we were best at. But they did. We need to learn from it and put in the kind of time, effort and money that they did to do a better job of organizing on the ground.