Michael Moore's Pending Clark Endorsement - Thoughts?

[Jack_Dawson]

I have mixed feelings about this - if it does happen. It may help shore up the lefty vote, but will it drive away the center and swing voters? Moore has been painted as quite the liberal of late, and I'm sure the RW press would have a field day. On the other hand, he does have quite a following...not sure what to make of it.

[ewagner]

1. I know what you mean

What's the old joke about mixed emotions?

Sort of like watching your mother-in-law drive off a cliff in your new car?

[TLM]

2. Will Moore ask Clark about his speaking fees?

Seems like something Moore would want to know... who gave Clark over a million bucks before Clark decided to run, and why won't Clark disclose the source(s)?

[democratreformed]

30. Here is some more info on Clark's post-military income.

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A2964-2003Dec15¬Found=true

Excerpts: "One of Clark's most lucrative decisions was to sign up with a booking agency, the Greater Talent Network Inc., which arranged 55 speeches for him from Feb. 2, 2002, to Sept. 23, 2003. Clark was paid a total of $1.41 million, or an average of just over $25,000 for each address.

Among those who paid for Clark's speeches were Lehman Brothers (four talks in Arizona, England, California and New York), Microsoft, Warner Home Video, American Express (two speeches, in Colorado and Connecticut), and Deloitte & Touche."

SNIP
"Clark received a $75,000 advance on his recently published book, "Winning Modern Wars." If the book earns more than $75,000, Clark, according to his disclosure statement, will turn over all additional royalties to charity.

Lehane said Clark has given up all his posts on corporate boards except Messer Griesheim GmbH, a German firm where the practice is to resign at the end of the year."

Overall, this account, IMO, is fairly detailed.

[Lefty48197]

41. Now Clark is hiding his income sources on the pages of the WashingtonPost?

He should have filed them with Dean's papers.

[Jack_Dawson]

40. Are Speaking Fees Illegal?

I'm confused.

[arewethereyet]

51. They can be

I'm not crystal clear on this but I seem to recall that if they can be viewed as campaign contributions and not duely noted, problem.

I read about it but it was last week and, given the week I've had, that was a LONG time ago.

[Forkboy]

3. I like Moore a lot

but this wont sway me to Clark.Endorsements by anyone don't have much effect on me regardless of who it's for anyways though.

[mmonk]

4. I feel positive about it.

[BeatleBoot]

5. Better Than Endorsing Nader

Like he did in 2000.

[Jack_Dawson]

6. Eeee Gadz...did he?

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Hopefully the anti-Bush crowd has learned its lesson.

[lazarus]

37. He did

However, towards the end, he broke with Nader when Nader broke his promise not to campaign in "battleground states," and made pleas on his website for people in Florida and other states to vote for Gore.

[Cocoa]

7. It's not coherent to me

I heard him talking about it on Charlie Rose, and I didn't get it. Based on Moore's rhetoric, he should be supporting Kucinich. Clark should be last.

What I think it is, is he sees Clark as the most electable, but this totally contradicts what Moore has said before.

Or else it might be gratitude that Clark defended Moore on TV about the Oscars thing. Which is great, but someone like Moore shouldn't be basing their vote on something like that.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

11. actually

Moore has always been somewhat of a political pragmatist. in "stupid white men" he recounts being on an airplane phone begging Nader to drop out and endorse Gore. Moore is just a regular guy, and i think it's great he's opted to say who his pick is, unlike others who don't have the cajones to simply tell people their pick.

I think it's obvious Moore will vote against Bush whomever emerges as the candidate.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. What Moore wants most of all

is to see Bush beaten in this election. While it is true that one or two of the other candidates are closer to Moore ideologically, it is clear from his recent statement that he has spent a great deal of time talking to Clark and assessing his positions. While he may not consider them to be perfect, he certainly sees them as something he can live with, if fact, I think he's been somewhat surprised to find out how progressive many of Clark's positions actually are.

Moore is taking a pragmatic rather than idealistic approach to this election because he truly understands what a threat Bush is to this country, and wants above all, to put forth what he regards as the strongest possible challenger to him in the election.

I found everything in Moore's letter to be extremely cogent and well thought out. I didn't see him on Charlie Rose, so I can't speak to that.

[TexasSissy]

8. I think it helps more than hurts.

Some would consider me a moderate, and I like Moore a lot, so I don't think it's an absolute truth that centrists or independents would be turned off by a Moore endorsement.

I don't think it'll hurt at all, and in fact will help. A plus, in the end. And I'm excited about it, actually!

[MoonRiver]

9. Moore is a very smart and insightful person.

I'm delighted he saw the light about General Clark. The more endorsements for Clark the better. Certainly Moore's liberal credentials won't hurt Clark. I'm a progressive and have no objection to anything in Clark's history or policy positions.

[last1standing]

10. This is the primary.

So it's a good thing. It'll shore up the faithful for the primaries and be long forgotten for the GE. Also, while not a surprise considering Moore's past statements regarding Clark, talk of it now helps diffuse some of the buzz that Dean will get from CMB's endorsement.

Congrats to Clark.

[Bombtrack]

12. very, very, very, few democratic primary voters are that anti-moore

even if they think of themselves as more moderate than him, it's doubtful that it would turn them off from voting for Clark

[Terwilliger]

14. what about all the gun supporters?

who think Moore is the anti-Christ of the second amendment?

[Monte Carlo]

15. Among Democratic voters, when Moore is an NRA member?

I don't think it's THAT sizeable. I think Moore's backing is a definite net-plust for Clark.

[Terwilliger]

31. Moore is not revered in gun circles

I've talked to some who will not accept that Bowling For Columbine was anything but an attack on gun rights.

[Lefty48197]

43. Terwilliger, you should know by now

that most of the people who say BFC is an attack on gun rights, haven't even seen the film, and are just parroting what the NRA tells them to parrot.

[Terwilliger]

58. that doesn't mean the people who believe it

aren't Democrats

[Name removed]

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[Terwilliger]

13. This says that Moore is now running scared

like everybody else was in 2000

I don't believe that the views Moore generally espouses are compatible with his support of Clark.

[absyntheNsugar]

18. This election is a bit different

We literally can't vote only on our conscience - we'd suicide our cause faster than Hetfield in Texas.

The stakes are too high - and we need the best candidate to beat Bush. Clark, being the more liberal front runner (check out his stances - he's more liberal than Dean and Kerry) plus being a General who always brought his men and women back alive is a safe bet against an incumbent who's riding a wave of popularity.

I think in any other election, Moore would be behind you and Dennis - being as he is true left. But the stakes are too high, and we can't afford to send a "message" other than "Bush go back to talking to the cows!"

[Tatiana]

20. I agree and disagree.

I agree that the stakes are high and we need to field the best candidate who has the credentials and fortitude to beat Bush. However, next to Kucinich, I think Kerry is the most liberal "frontrunner," followed by Clark. Don't forget, one of the most liberal Democrats in our party, Ted Kennedy, has endorsed Kerry.

But although I'm enthused about Kerry's comeback in Iowa, nationally, I don't think his campaign has what it takes to win the nomination. Plus, I think Clark will have more success in the South than Kerry will.

[absyntheNsugar]

Kennedy may have endorsed Kerry...

but issue per issue, Clark is a wee bit more to the left. However, I will concede that Kerry has a more liberal track record (as Clark has no track record.)

BTW....Kennedy's endorsing Kerry has much more to do with congressional alliances than with actual positions. Don't forget the Kennedy's supported Ahnold in the recall election - a matter of alliances rather than posiotions.

[Auntie Bush]

52. re: Ted Kennedy, has endorsed Kerry.

That would mean more if Kerry were from another state but they have been friends for years. How could he back anyone else?

[Clark Can WIN]

49. Moore's own words in his endorsement would seem to contradict the

assumption that he is "running scared". I'm sure Michael Moore is in the best position to determine his own views and wishes.

[Terwilliger]

67. yes, he's been thoroughly disappointed up to this point

in believing that Democrats will do anything, so supporting Clark is a desperation gasp

[Rowdyboy]

16. If you read the entire endorsement

Moore goes to some length to make his case. It doesn't sound like an endorsement of convenience to me. He seems quite serious.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

19. It Happened, It Was/Is Fantastic, and It Exposes the Attacks on Clark

For supposedly being a Republican to be the absolute sham that they are.

DTH

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[Jack_Dawson]

23. Nice drive-by post

Clark's opposition to the war is well-documented.

[Bread and Circus]

22. I am very positive about the endorsement....I think he he...

has studied the situation and came to a more reasoned
conclusion than gore.

Read his statement on his website.

[Toucano]

24. I think it's great.

I think the endorsement letter is well reasoned and generally positive in tone. I think a lot of people will like that. I like Michael Moore, but I recognize his weaknesses; I don't always agree with him 100%.

I can't think of an instance where an endorsement has repelled voters from a candidate. Only a seriously weak-minded person would not vote for a candidate they otherwise like due to an endorsement from someone they dislike.

For example if David Duke endorsed Clark it wouldn't stop me from supporting him. I know Duke to be a nut, so his opinion counts for squat either way. I might question what he would be trying to do with such an endorsement, but that's about the only effect it would have on me. I suspect that those who dislike Moore consider his opinion irrelevant too.

How else could they justify not listening to everything else Moore says, but taking his advice (or reverse of his advice, which is still listening to his opinion) on who to vote for?

[Killarney]

25. I don't think it will hurt him.

The essay Moore wrote on his website for Clark is really wonderful.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php

This paragraph says it best:
"I am convinced that the surest slam dunk to remove Bush is with a four-star-general-top-of-his-class-at-West-Point-Rhodes-Scholar-Medal-of-Freedom-winning-gun-owner-from-the-South -- who also, by chance, happens to be pro-choice, pro environment, and anti-war. You don't get handed a gift like this very often. I hope the liberal/left is wise enough to accept it. It's hard, when you're so used to losing, to think that this time you can actually win. It is Clark who stands the best chance -- maybe the only chance -- to win those Southern and Midwestern states that we MUST win in order to accomplish Bush Removal. And if what I have just said is true, then we have no choice but to get behind the one who can make this happen."

[Name removed]

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[Crunchy Frog]

27. I think this endorsement will really help.

The things that make Clark IMO the strongest candidate to go against Bush are also things that make him weaker in the Democratic primaries, whose participants tend to be more liberal. In the primaries, Clark is trying to appeal to a base that has a natural distrust for a career military man, as well as someone who voted for Republicans in the past.

Moore will be able to reach out to those people and reassure them in a way that few others could do.

I don't think it will do any harm in the General Election, as Moore would be endorsing whomever the candidate is at that point.

FWIW, my mother is already using MM's statements about Clark in the email invitation she is sending out to members of her liberal leaning Unitarian church, for the Clark house party she will be hosting.

[PVnRT]

29. He's been leaning towards Clark for a while

In "Dude, Where's My Country," he mentions that Clark would make a good candidate, and that was long before Clark declared his candidacy.

Most of the criticism of Moore is that he's "too liberal." No one, however, when making that claim, takes seriously anything he says, which, actually, does resonate with a lot of Americans, especially his assualts on how corporate America is treating workers, opposition to NAFTA, and so forth.

Frankly, the right-wing is going to have a field day with any candidate our side puts out there.

[phillybri]

32. It's positive, in spite of what the Moore-haters tell you...

They're probably wishing he'd endorse Nader again so they can bitch about it again...

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. He's not a Democrat and has made some poor chocies in 2000

[MoonRiver]

34. Toward the end Moore was urging Greens to endorse Gore in 2000.

People chose not to listen.

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. Do you have a link to back that up?

He was still pushing the BS that Bush and Gore were two of a kind in mid-October 2000.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001019092830/http://www.michaelmoore.com/

[MoonRiver]

60. I read it in Stupid White Men.

[OKNancy]

36. No problems at all - Clark

is trying to make the Democratic party really be the party of inclusion.

[jonnyblitz]

38. Its a good thing! n/t

[Lefty48197]

39. Most of the "NRA types" hate Michael Moore

Dean may very well have felt the same way. It's no surprise that Moore didn't endorse the NRA's favorite Democrat.

[Jack_Dawson]

42. Good - Cause I hate the NRA

Wackjobs the whole lot of them.

[Turkw]

44. Actually Moore likes Dean quite a bit, and would enthusiastically support

of our candidates that wins, except Lieberman. We will support Lieberman, but as a ABB candidate.

This is a good thing, what I like most about his endorsement is that he wants to stay out of the mudslinging and thinks that we have a great group of candidates. He thinks that Bush is beatable and does like Clark's positions. I agree with him on all accounts,No Bush, great candidates all, Clark's positions more progressive than people think.

Whoo Hooo Go Moore, Go Clark, Go Dems!:bounce: :yourock:

[windansea]

45. first of all..it's not "pending"

I guess when you wrote this you hadn't seen MM's letter?

for the primaries this is a home run endorsement...it shores up Clarks left flank and definitely weakens the Clark is a republican theme

if Clark wins the nomination...MM can be used to shore up Clark support in the states Gore won in 2000

Clark already has tons of appeal to moderates, swing voters, and Republicans disenchanted with Bush, and people sick of "politicians"

MM endorsing Clark is just what he needed to gain confidence of progressives, greens..and the disenchanted

[gulliver]

46. Done deal now.

http://www.americansforclark.com/moore/

[quaker bill]

47. It is consistent with his latest book

Of course, he seemed to state an even stronger preference for Oprah.

I don't know that Mike will bring all that much to a presidential campaign. However, he is a large target for the right-wing. He has made himself such and seems to like it.

I have no problem with this, it is in fact part of what I like about him. However, I think his endorsement is a two edged sword because of this. But, in the final analysis, this probably will not mean all that much as those who do not like Mike probably were not going to vote for a Democrat anyway. Those voting for a Democrat are, for the very much larger part, probably picking their candidate on something more substantial than a celebrity endorsement.

Bravo to Wes. But I expect that he knows that it will take alot more than this.

[Clark Can WIN]

48. I think it has more positive in it than negative

Michael Moore's endorsement was a good thing. It gives Clark his liberal bonafides, even though those of us who have bothered to do the work already know that. It makes the point to those who may not have otherwise considered him as seriously.

At first I was a little perturbed at all the media coverage of CMB's endorsement and so little of Moore's. As the day progressed I've had time to reconsider though. Michael Moore is a big red flag to some moderates. It's better that this endorsement is shuffled under a bit at the national level for now. Most of the people who might be swayed at all by Moore are already on his mailing list &/or will become aware of his enorsement in due time.

In the end, this endorsement brings more to the table now for the primaries, than it will detract in the general election.

[LTR]

50. This is a win-win situation

Let's face it, most of the people that think Moore is nuts are the freepers, and they're voting for Bush anyway. Most are likely indifferent.

I read the letter, and it is very intellignet and eloquent. Makes some very valid points.

Sure, Moore is a hard-core lib, but has probably become a realist. He also has talked with Clark on several occasions, and beleives he is very genuine (and we all know how cynical he can be).

The endorsement gives Clark more cred with the far left (which, based on his stance on most issues, he should have anyway). I'll take it.

[billbuckhead]

55. I have few litmus tests and appeasing the NRA is one of them.

Two of Michigan's finest, Michael Moore and Madonna endorsing Clark. Who's next? Eminem? White Stripes? I wish Gerald Ford would endorse Clark and say he's not a Republican. I wish Bill Ford could come out and say Clark is much better for both car sales and the enviroment.

Things like this don't happen much because people are afraid. Even Willie Nelson had to back down from the pressure of violence and blacklists. I ASK ALL REAL LIBERALS IF THE NRA BLACKLIST IS LESS THAN 80% DIFFERENT THAN THE BFEE'S OR THE PNAC's OR KARL ROVE'S OR THE CIA'S?

I say follow the guns and you'll find the troubles.

[LTR]

56. Looking at the candidates' stance on the second amendment

They do favor the right to bear arms...with limitations.

They all seem to favor the Brady Bill. And restrictions on gun show sales and assault weapons.

The NRA are just a bunch of right wing nuts that are more about politics than gun rights.

[Kahuna]

53. Clark is selling a really big tent.. That includes everybody who is

interested in what is best for the country and each other. He will sell this message and make it work. It also counters the attacks by the candidates about Clark being a republican. Clark's response..Sticks and stones. I'm an American. That's what I am.

[Tom Rinaldo]

54. It's a strong positive for Clark. Great upside, little downside.

I posted this earlier on the Politics forum while this one was down. Guess it fits here too:

He wrote a great statement and I am thrilled that Moore has come out so strongly for Clark. I have incredible respect for Moore, even if he did screw up with his Green fling, but he admitted it. That didn't work, and he knows we can not afford to let Bush and Company sink even deeper roots into the White House. Clark is the man for the job, and Moore knows it.

There is a lot of poetic justice in this also. The General covered Mike's back against the right after the Oscar flap, and now Michael is returning the favor while Dean Lieberman and Kerry are trying to peg Clark as a Republican. I am not worried about Moore's endorsement hurting Clark with moderates and swing voters. Not in the slightest. It is huge for Clark right now, as his campaign starts to gear up for the contests in New York and California where solid Liberal credentials are essential for victory. Moore will be out there campaigning for Clark. It's big.

What not enough Democrats have truly seen yet is how much Teflon coating Clark's military career has given him with moderate voters. Clark can take stands twice as Progressive as Dean and still be accepted by those voters as a moderate. People like Madonna and Moore can endorse Clark and most middle of the road Americans will just chalk it up as a pragmatic compromise they made because they hate Bush so much that they will back whoever it takes to beat him. It's exactly what some (by no means all) Dean, Kucinich and Kerry supporters assume about the progressives here who are strongly behind Clark.

It's no compromise to me. I am a life long Progressive who is thrilled by the prospect of a Clark Presidency. I don't mistake Clark for a strong leftist. I see Clark as talented, dedicated, honest, and caring. I see him as someone who most Americans will respect and listen to while he explains to them why Gays and Lesbians can not be discriminated against in America, and why it is obscene to give huge tax cuts to the rich while working class families are in danger of losing their homes.

Clark answered my last concerns about him two months ago. He began running an increasingly skillful campaign to the point where I would now say that it is verges on brilliant. Clark is ready for Bush. I think Moore summed it all up perfectly with this:

"You don't get handed a gift like this very often. I hope the liberal/left is wise enough to accept it."

[Name removed]

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[cosmicdot]

59. I did not know that: "Moore is friends with Clintons"

[QC]

62. That's a new one for me, too.

And frankly I am getting a bit tired of the notion that Clark is a tool of the Clintons.

This idea was hatched by William Safire and dutifully spread by Limbaugh, Hannity, and the others, which makes it questionable in my eyes, and I am sorry to see how this conspiracy theory has even infiltrated Democratic circles. It's par for the course when Republicans repeat Republican smears, but disturbing when Democrats repeat them.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

61. Moore is very critical of the Clintons

you've obviously never read Michael Moore, so you're probably getting your information from 'other' sources...I wonder which ones! :eyes:

[Jerseycoa]

63. Huh?

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Exgeneral]

64. I thought this was a fait accompli

He didn't do it yet?
QUICK!!!! Someone stop him before it's too late!!!!
You're damn right it's a bad idea Jack.

[bitchkitty]

65. It's still pending?

I was under the impression that he had endorsed Clark already, at least that's the impression I got here.

So what's the hold up, Michael? Maybe it was just a rumor after all.

[Crunchy Frog]

69. No rumor

check out the website.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php

[NoPasaran]

66. I think it's a good endorsement

And congratulations to the Clark camp.

If we worry about what the right wing media has to say about this, or anything else, we lose. Regardless of who the nominee is, he will be subjected to the worst slanders Rove and Fox News and the rest of Minitru can dream up. If through some fluke Lieberman became the nominee you can bet that within five minutes Rush and O'Rielly and all that hellish crew would have him painted as a puppy-killing bolshevik.

Michael Moore has been around for a long time. Sometimes I agree with what he writes. Sometimes I think he's full of crap. I read his endorsement, and I like what he wrote. It's a model of inclusion.

I'm still supporting my candidate because he looks like a fighter who can clobber Bush*. I also see a lot to admire in General Wesley Clark. May we pick the best candidate to lead us back to the White House.

Clark people + Dean people = Victory

[angee_is_mad]

68. I think it is great

especially since Dean is racking up alot of hollywood endorsements. Now Clark just needs Maxine Waters and Al Franken.