We just won OHIO!!!

[cAMP]

Check out the ballot for Cuyahoga county (the most populous county in Ohio):

The green spot isn't for Bush. Not that Kerry isn't going to take Ohio by a landslide anyway. Cuyahoga must stand for "Kiss your NAZI ass goodby, shrub."
Link to story.

(edited to correct link)

[Bluebear]

1. What the hell kind of ballot is that, a bingo card?

No wonder people get confused!

[Hosnon]

8. What

is the freakin problem with creating a ballot that MAKES SENSE? Kudos that this will take votes from Bush but what if the names were reversed?

[janx]

9. No kidding!

I go cross-eyed just looking at it!

[0007]

69. I got sort of drunkie

I've read the article it still is confusing.

[Arioch]

11. Your link is mangled

and sending my Firefox on Linux to Microsoft encouraging me to install XP!
Blecccchhhh...

;)

http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-local.php?story=dispatch/2004/10/21/20041021-C10-00.html

[0rganism]

28. This may be one of the reasons for our incredibly low voter turnouts

I mean, forget presidential elections, think of the freakin' Municipal midyear elections! Who the hell wants to see a piece of crap like that more than once every four years? Or fourty?

Now the republican upswing of recent decades makes sense: a high percentage of frequent voters are masochists!

[Retrograde]

39. that is one of the infamous punch card ballots

Santa Clara Co., CA, used them for years and years. until last spring in fact. If the county election board bothers to proofread them in the first place (mine appears to have done so) and if you spot check a few punches before turning it in, it's really not that hard to use IMHO.

I used to like voting absentee back then: the county registrar of voters sent you a punch card (it was assumed you kept your sample ballot so you could match up the numbers) and a bent paper clip to punch out the holes.

[blackcat77]

2. Uh, that looks like deliberately setting up for a lawsuit

"just in case," you know.

That's the worst ballot I've ever seen. Is Bush's "4" supposed to be "14?"

[Zero Division]

97. Yep, this is definitely not a good thing.

We shouldn't support any kind of voting scheme that makes it difficult to vote correctly. I don't care who the bad voting scheme favors. Let's leave the anti-democracy attitudes to the right wing.

[Liberal Veteran]

3. Um....would you mind NOT spreading that around just now?

:)

[Dookus]

4. Your link doesn't work

and since you're new to DU, I should explain that Democrats don't want to win due to bad ballots, unlike Florida Republicans. Enjoy your stay, however long or brief it is.

[Alleycat]

13. I agree

I want to win this fair and square!! And we will.

[cAMP]

30. We played fair in Florida in 2000

and we got bushwacked. Which is worse, this ballot or disenfranchising african american voters.

[Crunchy Frog]

54. You're setting up a false dichotomy.

They are both unacceptable. IMO if we think that the butterfly ballots in Florida were wrong, than these ballots are also wrong.

We shouldn't take the attitude that we can only win by cheating. Democracy is not about a contest over who is best at cheating. Anyway, if it only comes down to which party cheats best, the Pukes will win everytime.

[LoZoccolo]

57. self-deleted

la la la la la!

[tsuki]

70. I agree.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. That is amazing

But it also disheartens me. I hate to see anything that interferes with a fair election, regardless of who benefits.

[cAMP]

correct link - sorry

http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-local.php?story=dispatch/2004/10/21/20041021-C10-00.html

[Bluebear]

12. Ah, absentee ballots....

The article says it is a trditionally Democratic county anyhow. I don't want to win this election by cheating, that's so, so, so....well, so Republican.

[Mojambo]

6. That's a bad link. n/t

[Renew Deal]

7. Why is it impossible to have a normal election in this country?

:wtf: We are on our way to third world status.

[NVMojo]

21. Apparently some Secretary of States learned ZIP from the last

election about being honest and clear on their ballots. KEERIST!!!

[flowomo]

10. that link is to Microsoft....

[ret5hd]

14. that has got to be the most confusing ballot i have ever seen...

regardless of who benefits. what is the problem with ballot designers?

[hippiechick]

15. Nice but how many people are going to line up colors with arrows

and vote for B/C ( #4 - red) because that colored box corresponds with the arrow for K/E ???

You'll also note that if you line up colors with arrows, the blue box, which SHOULD correspond to K/E, lines up with the 'Candidate Disqualified' arrow.


Peeople will match arrows with colored boxes before they realize that it's the NUMBERS in the boxes are supposed to line up with the arrows on the ballot.


Not good, IMO.. :(



:hippie:

[Longhorn]

50. The colors aren't on the actual punchcard.

They were added by the author of the original post so he could explain what was wrong with the ballot.

It's obviously a misprint -- "4" should read "14" and so on.

I wouldn't be surprised if they accept votes made in both places.

[sonicx]

16. jesus, 4 years and the voting process is still fucked.

[0rganism]

17. This will be bush's version of the "Palm Beach butterfly ballot"

I wonder who or what lucky #14 is for.

[ogradda]

18. that's probably not a good thing

i see months of litigation in that.

[blue sky at night]

19. i wish the link in your thread would work...

Cause I don't get what you are talking about. But yep, that is an Ohio Ballot ok, the push pin thingy shoves out the "chad" and the computer card reader, reads it. There is a booklet that gives you the candidates.

[ALago1]

20. "If the people can't figure out a ballot they shouldn't be voting"

Thus was the mantra of the right-wing in Florida 4 years ago.

Fuck em'. Karma hits hard.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

32. Right On!!!

I like the way you think ALago1!!!

[LoZoccolo]

40. self-deleted

My band started playing the wrong song and I didn't know what to do so I did a hoe-down.

[Bluebear]

48. "Sore Loserman. Sore Loserman."

Karma duly noted!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

22. Oh YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love that Ballot!!!

:kick:

[nonconformist]

23. I for one just want a FAIR election where every vote is counted correctly

So to me, this isn't good news. But this looks like a very odd ballot and I question it's authenticity. However, if it's true I think it stinks.

That's the difference between Democrats and Republicans... we just want fair news and fair elections while they want slanted fantasy reports and corrupt elections.

[AlamoDemoc]

35. looking at that ballot made me dizzy ...ughrrrr

Why are they still using these old ballots?

[high density]

24. What idiots design these ballots?

OPTICAL SCAN, PEOPLE. God this is so ridiculous.

[Bozos for Bush]

25. Lets win this thing fair and square - we're Democrats

We're Democrats.
We stand for right and wrong, good vs. bad.
We must win.

But not this way.

It is not who we are.

Please visit this thread for a summary of what we are up against.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1154535

Please visit this thread to assist our efforts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1146495

Thank you.

[calmblueocean]

26. I hate this crap.

It just gives Republicans the opportunity to whine and cause trouble afterwards. Why can't we just have normal, fair elections like the rest of the world?

[cAMP]

55. There is no such thing as a fair election

and there never will be until the republicans are wiped out - and I'd rather that they whine than win

[sandnsea]

27. It clearly says 4 is for Bush

What's the matter with Ohio Republicans, too stupid to know 4 means 4 and vote???

(Bad ballot, they need to get this fixed.)

[cAMP]

33. No way. Too Late!!

[LoZoccolo]

37. Didn't Ann Coulter say something about...

...how if you're too stupid to vote, then that's too bad? Something about demagoging to the weak?

[LiberalFighter]

95. 4 should be easy for them... they want 4 more years of the idiot

[Gato Moteado]

29. i think the second listing is the one for bush/cheney....

the one that says candidate disqualified.

[liberalmuse]

31. This is an atrocity!

My god, who in the hell designs these things? Why are fucking idiots running our electoral process? This is definitely a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[tsuki]

74. But as I understand it,

both the democratic and republican party have to approve it.

[seabeyond]

34. told husband last nite, if repug vote being supressed

i would be equally mad. i am proud of dems. hands down the majority just want the fair vote, eother side, both sides, no games. this is wrong, like all htose doing to kerry is wrong.

screw this

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

36. Jesus H Christ!

:wtf: kind of ballot is THAT! Man this really sux!

[flowomo]

38. can anyone find a link to this "ballot" other than this:

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/newswire/news2004/1004/102404-ohio-butterfly-ballot.htm

and what is this site?

[cAMP]

42. Here is the link to all of the county ballots

http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/boe/ballots/ballots.htm

[flowomo]

51. yes, but THIS ballot you show is not there....

did I miss it? Please post a working link.

[cAMP]

58. I origionally found this at

http://www.electoral-vote.com (6th paragraph)

[demgrrrll]

47. Isn't the Secretary of State a Republican? I need more information

before I make a comment. I want to see if a statement was made by the Secretary of State.

[Blue_Roses]

41. this ballot is a disaster waiting to happen

why is it so hard to get a decent ballot in this state:shrug:

[Orangepeel]

43. I don't believe this picture

I read the story and I didn't see the picture with it. Also, I never had a punch card ballot with colored boxes.

Where did this picture come from. I think it is fake.

[cAMP]

60. the color was added for emphasis

[Orangepeel]

63. I still don't believe it.

I think this is a joke or a hoax.

[LoZoccolo]

44. Raining on parade: this is fake. Here's why.

"2" and "4" should be "12" and "14". Someone covered up the "1"s.

To be sure, I'd like fair elections with fair ballots, but anyone who even advocates some social darwinist bullshit like the Republicans did regarding Florida loses the credibility to complain when that shit is thrown back at them.

[tkmorris]

45. You are being misleading here

The article makes clear what you do not. First of all the ballot text and the associated punch card are not aligned the way you show them by default. Attempts to align the card to the ballot do result in confusion, since they don't line up, but it would appear that they aren't supposed to. Furthermore it is just as easy to screw up an intended vote for Kerry on this card as it is for Bush.

The fact that this ballot is being used in a heavily Democratic area, given that it is as easy to make an error while voting for Kerry as it is for Bush, means that more Kerry voters will have their ballots discarded for errors than Bush voters. This hurts the Democrats and is really inexcusable.

The funny thing is that the article makes that clear, whereas you do not. Oh and by the way, here's a working link. http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-local.php?story=dispatch/2004/10/21/20041021-C10-00.html

[demgrrrll]

49. Good Point. It is hard to take a poster seriously if they withhold crucial

information in the original post.

[cAMP]

64. my understanding is that electoral-vote.com

is a pro-kerry site and it is obviously part of the url to the picture. Regardless, they barely say anything there besides host the picture. mensnewsdaily.com is obviously a pro-bush site - I have no idea who took this picture - maybe they did. I don't have the ballots in front of me so I can't tell who it helps/hurts.

on edit:
I hadn't seen this on mensnewsdaily.com until someone else posted that link. Given the AP story (at columbus dispatch), my guess is that this image is not doctored though possibly misleading.

[swcl]

46. Firstly, this is terrible, whomever it ends up hurting more. Secondly,

according to the Columbus Dispatch article, this impacts both candidates:

"For example, a Cleveland Heights absentee ballot book lists the numeral six next to Democrat Sen. John Kerry’s name. If a voter tries to line up the arrow with the punch card, the number across from Kerry’s name, however, could be for another candidate or for no vote.

It’s also possible for Republican President Bush’s name to be misaligned should an absentee voter mistakenly try to follow the arrows. "

http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-local.php?story=dispatch/2004/10/21/20041021-C10-00.html

[napi21]

52. Has anyone made the Kerry campaign aware of this?

I have heard a number of Kerry lawyers in the past several days say "If you see something wrong, or even suspect something is wrong, you muct let us know IMMEDIATELY"! I heard this from david Boyes on at least 5 different interviews, and several others as well. The Dems have 5,000 lawyers waiting to solve things like this!

Has ANYONE notified someone who can DO SOMETHING besides complain????

[LoZoccolo]

53. I said it's FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! See #44. n/t

[demgrrrll]

61. I am glad this is a fake. What a pants load. Like we want to deal with

this in the middle of everything else we have to do.

[janx]

65. I don't know that it's fake, but the confusion is exaggerated.

The original poster is using two links: one from electoralvote.com and another one.

If you actually read the article s/he links, you'll find that it states that the arrows on the ballot are confusing, but if the voters follow directions and use the numbers, there shouldn't be much of a problem.

[LoZoccolo]

68. No they shouldn't use the numbers.

The one that reads 2 points to chad 12 because it should read 12 (the 1 is missing).
The one that reads 4 points to chad 14 because it should read 14 (the 1 is missing).

Even if this is real, it will get counted correctly if you follow the arrows.

[janx]

75. There's a 4 at the top, and there's probably a 2 at the top as

well.

What is electoral-vote.com? Do we know anything about it?

[LoZoccolo]

77. I know there's a 4 at the top.

The reason the Bush* arrow is pointing to chad 14 is because it should read 14 instead of 4. The 1 is missing, or has been shopped out as part of a hoax. This is consistent with the Libertarian entry above it that should read 12 instead of 2.

[janx]

81. Oh, I see now!

You're talking about the numbers on the left. Gotcha. In that case, it probably is a fake. I don't think anyone would allow a ballot like that to be used--anywhere.

[LoZoccolo]

83. I now think it's a deliberate forgery - see #82. n/t

[demgrrrll]

96. Guess that means I don't have to read the whole article. eom.

.

[Qanisqineq]

56. this is terrible

we would all be bitching if it was Kerry/Edwards that was confusing. I want Kerry to win because people want to get out and vote for him, not because they can't make a decent ballot.

[seabeyond]

59. so cAMP

why didnt we get the whole story and why mislead on here. as you can see the strong majority of democrats dont get excited about screwing voters as a whole. about damn tired as being screwed as a party. this is rove behavior, make sure you get out dems are doing the same as repugs and then it makes the repug evil doing ok.

[cAMP]

71. Jesus,

Ohio is going to be a huge mess one way or the other. So they cheat and we just shrug and loose? So basically we have to take it? Or win with like a 10% buffer zone. Maybe we can trust the courts to do the right thing - if not the local ones - then the supreme court right ???

[sangh0]

79. Very deceitful

First you claim the Dems are cheating on the ballot, and cheer it on. Now, you avoid the criticisms made against you and just repeat your crap.

How about you defend why you left important info out, and posted an doctored image?

[seabeyond]

91. it is called integrity cAMP. didnt you listen to kerry's mama

that voter we steal vote from is a fellow american. men especially and women have died for that americans vote. theft is theft. and theft of voice in america is the greatest of theft for me.

integrity

i am leaving this world to my children. this is important what i hand over to them

[Mantra]

62. THIS IS A HOAX

Someone covered up the "1"'s. The 2 is a 12 and the 4 is a 14.

Listen Up People: Bush is losing and his people know it. What they will do over the next week is try to cast an air of illegitimacy over Kerry's win. They will set the stage for the assault on him that will begin before he even takes office.

So when you see something like this, you have to be careful before you jump to conclusions.

[janx]

67. My thoughts exactly. There's a rumor flying around right wingnut

circles that Kerry is going to declare victory prematurely. I don't know where it originated, but I have a few guesses.

[onecent]

66. I hope after Kerry wins we look into voting reform!

[Cronus Protagonist]

72. I think they must have used this testing web site....

http://ballottest.com - to make that ballot. It probably passed the test on that site.

:)

[Must_B_Free]

73. Fraud

Pic is a fake

[xray s]

76. An obvious typo

Bush and Cheney were meant to be on the second line, after Kerry and Edwards. And that line is supposed to read "Candidate Unqualified" instead of "Candidate Disqualified"

:)

[Orangepeel]

78. Typo or photoshop?

I think the names were switched to make the picture.

[LoZoccolo]

80. You might be able to tell if you blew it up.

You might see that the pixels they used to cover it up don't quite look right, or still kind-of look like a 1.

[LoZoccolo]

82. It looks pretty much shopped when you blow it up.

I can maybe email a picture to someone if they're willing to host it. But basically, you can see a kind of blurred outline around the 6 and 10. This bluriness extends to where the 1 would be on the 2 and 4. It's very obvious that the outline fits the 6 and 10, but extends too far left on the 2 and 4.

[janx]

85. Why would electoral-vote.com link to it?

How reliable is that site? (This might now be a rhetorical question, I realize...)

[LoZoccolo]

88. They probably didn't check it out.

The guy sounds like he's busy or something. Maybe someone sent it and he took it at face value.

[LoZoccolo]

89. Actually, that might not work - see for yourselves.

If I sent it out and converted it to a .jpg it might compress the distortion away. Save it on your hard drive and open it with the Windows XP viewer, and you can zoom in on the numbers. You'll see the blurry outline when you look at the numbers close up compared to the 6 and 10.

[cAMP]

84. If this image is not a fake then I don't see

how it hurts kerry. If "Bush-4" is lined up then there is no "kerry" hole to punch. My guess: the numbers were f'd up. Someone confused 2 and 12 and 4 and 14. The ballot and the page seem to be lined up at the top, but obviously I can't tell for sure because the image is cropped. Otherwise, I don't get the AP story.

Regardless, I'm surprised that this is an absentee ballot - I didn't realize that they're ever punchcard ballots. I thought that this was the normal ballot (and thus would effect more people).

[LoZoccolo]

86. AP story? What AP story? n/t

[LoZoccolo]

93. Oh, that AP story.

Still, I don't know if this is really the ballot they're talking about in the story.

[Stephanie]

87. Holy Teresa LePore, Batman!

Unbelievable.

[Longhorn]

90. The ballot is not supposed to be aligned with the punch card.

As the article states: Ballot instructions tell absentee voters to punch the number that corresponds with their chosen candidate but don’t specifically say to disregard the arrows. That has some voters worried, especially because the outcome of the election is predicted to be close.

What's confusing is the arrows. The arrows shouldn't be there. Voters are supposed to punch the corresponding number as stated. No mention is apparently made about the arrows and that's the problem. Why are they there?

[Radio-Active]

92. Please change the title of this thread..

to "Unfair Butterfly Ballot in Ohio

This does not mean "We Just Won Ohio!"! I would rather we won Ohio fair and square.

This is a bullshit ballot.. the VERY obvious favorability in the ballot towards Kerry (I mean, what are the odds of that being an accident?), seems to suggest it was deliberately created to add the appearance of "helping Democrats".

However, it only helps the Republicans, who know they will lose Ohio, and may want an ace in the hole so they can challenge this.

We should protest this ballot, and pre-empt it, if at all possible.

[cAMP]

94. I've tried

but I get "the editing period has expired"

[cAMP]

98. Another link

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1098351259110130.xml

Local ballot is confusing for some absentee voters
Thursday, October 21, 2004
Kaye Spector
Plain Dealer Reporter
On absentee ballots, it's the numbers - not arrows - that count.

The Cuyahoga County Board of Elections has heard complaints from voters who were tripped up by the booklet that accompanied their absentee ballots. The voters mistakenly thought they should insert the ballot into the booklet, just like at the polling place, then punch out the chad across from the candidate's name.

No, no, no, said Gwen Dillingham, the election board's deputy director. Absentee voters should find the candidate's assigned number next to the name on the booklet, then punch out the corresponding chad on the ballot.

"You don't line them up with an absentee ballot," Dillingham said. "You look for numbers."

The ballots and booklets are used for both absentee voters and the voters at polling booths on Election Day. Complete instructions for absentee voters on how to properly use the ballot are printed on the booklet's cover, Dillingham said.

"We get these calls every year, but if they read the instructions on the front of the book, it's very clear," she said.

Those who voted absentee and think they may have made a mistake can contact the election board's absentee ballot department at 216-443-3231. The board will send out another ballot and cancel the first one. Ohio law gives voters three chances to get it right.

Election officials around the state expect a sharp increase in absentee ballots this year, thanks to heightened interest in the presidential race and the aggressive efforts of political parties and advocacy groups.

In Cuyahoga County, Ohio's most populous county, 75,000 voters have requested absentee ballots so far, Dillingham said.

[Orangepeel]

99. There is NO WAY that the incumbant is listed last on the ballot

1) that's not a county decision, that's a state decision
2) there are rules about the order, and the party in power is usually listed first (at least in FL, not sure about IL)

The news articles linked in this thread talk about the alignment of the arrows with the punchcard, but do not reference the "fact" that the numbers are out of order or that the bush/cheney ticket is listed last. There are no pictures of this ballot on the pages with the stories.

The order of the names has to have been switched as a joke or a hoax.

[Moderator]

100. Locking

Doesn't seem to be bonafide information.