Probably not Kerry's proudest moment - his meeting with Ortega

[rockydem]

Immediately after this Ortega went to the Soviet Union and got lots of aid money.

My questions are: I'm a young guy - what were Kerry and Harkin doing down there? Was Ortega a bad guy? He was a communist dicator, no?

What about the Contras (that our government supported) made them so worrisome? I believe that many Dems had complaints against Contra tactics. Were the Contras into war crimes, indiscriminate killing?

Regardless: it still is probably not one of Kerry's better moments as public official - simply for no other reason than that Ortega proved almost immediately to be untrustworthy.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. hmmmm

nt

[rockydem]

7. I'm not a freeper, but I did find this picture at FR

go ahead and read all 79 posts of mine...

Seriously, it probably wasn't his finest moment. He was a new Senator, and he miscalculated...

I'm looking for some context about this meeting from older DUers. I'm 29.

[Name removed]

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[rockydem]

20. it's not going to sway me - I'm just curious

seriously

I like to talk about things - obsessing over polls is getting fuckin' old.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

28. You're curious, all right.

And curiouser.

[rockydem]

35. someone wiith the name A-Schwarzenegger

that's curiouser....

[A-Schwarzenegger]

54. You don't like my name?

Is that what you're saying?

[CAcyclist]

57. There's books and there's google

You might try reading them.

You could start with Where Is Nicaragua? by Peter Davis

Daniel Ortega was elected president of Nicaragua in 1984 and he stepped down when his US-backed rival beat him in the elections.If a foreign government funded a candidate in the US election, that would be illegal.

The only reason the Sandinistas had to go to Russia to get aid was because the US refused to give aid and instead were busy funding the contras so the Sandinista government had to spend money and men fighting them. Ortega refused aid from the Americans because it would have come with ties like no land redistribution to the poor, no nationalization of corporations.

I don't know about Kerry, but here are some words from Daniel Ortega from Where is Nicaragua?:

"If we close a plant or decide to make a shift in crops, we have to provide opportunities for jobs in other areas.We must readjust our planning to better utilize the few resources we have. The problem fo consumer goods is serious and we have not been consistent in our production. For example , today we have enough soap and cooking oil, but last month we did not and next month , we may not again. We must organize ourselves in production and in rationing so there can be a steady supply of scarce goods, even if it is a very small supply"


Now, how outrageous is that? A leader who cares and is involved in his peoples' day to day needs?

[Bluebear]

3. Is Ortega a current cause celebre?

I think Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand and Bush cozying up to Bandar Bush on 9/12 are a little more interesting to the voting populace.

[liberalpragmatist]

5. Ortega was bad, but the Contras were FAR WORSE

Read a bit about the Contras. They were absolutely vile, disgusting creatures who brought untold misery to Central America.

Kerry was genuinely interested in a peaceful settlement that would've prevented war. He made a noble trip and a sincere effort to negotiate.

[rockydem]

12. "that would've have prevented war"

Did a war happen? Wasn't there already a lot of fighting? How long did int continue? For that matter - who the fuck 'won'?

[dogman]

6. Is it better to bomb than establish dialogue?

It's not like Rumsfeld with Saddam, providing aid a nd support. It's better than a chimp sitting in his cage throwing excrement at anyone outside of the cage.

[TimeToGo]

9. With all his problems

Ortega was functioning as head of state. We meet with people like that all the time. Meeting isn't the issue -- it is what the meeting is about.

[dogman]

38. Your point?

What is the meeting about?

[BUSHOUT]

8. WTF?!?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. that's code for a freeper attack...

every time a freeper posts we should write wtf...

[JI7]

11. didn't Nixon meet with a Communist dictator, how about the saudis ?

and rummy and saddam ?

[xray s]

13. Ortega?

I buy his salsa all the time. I little mild for my tastes, but over all, not bad. Needs some more cilantro though...

[Bluebear]

17. More jalapanos. Could use more jalapenos, And some lime.

[Lilli]

Homemade salsa is way better n/t

[Bluebear]

25. I'll have to try making it. I hear don't rub your eyes....

the peppers are hell.

[JohnnyCougar]

14. A noble trip to prevent bloodshed it was.

I don't see what's wrong with meeting bad people and trying to talk some sense into them. Do you?

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. What about the Contras made them so worrisome

Ortega proved almost immediately to be untrustworthy. Who said?


I don't get you. The Contras weren't the Sandinistas. What do you want to know? What are you looking for?

Your post is meaningless and without merit.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Meaningless And Without Merit...

That pretty much describes a freeper's lot in life...

[rockydem]

21. I know - our government supported the Contras

but why were Kerry and other Democrats opposed to supported the Contras?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Because They Hated The Monroe Doctrine And Wanted To See Latin America Red

nt

[The_Casual_Observer]

46. Correction: the government didn't "support" the contras

to the contrary, there was a law (the bolland amendment) against supporting the contras. The contras were supported by an illegal covert arrangement managed by Oliver North. A number of wh and government people went to jail, including North as a result of this "enterprise". So, your buddies at freepshit are as always wrong. Anything else????

[rockydem]

51. I'm not a member of FR

you're just straight-up wrong, and thin-skinned to boot.

[The_Casual_Observer]

52. No thin skin

your posts are simply without merit and the stench burns my eyes.

[rockydem]

58. it's good you're wearing that gas mask then...

sorry my posts bother you - I'm just looking for a discussion of something other than polls...

so I threw something that would be a little jolting, attention catching - you don't have to freak.

I really was just looking for some interesting discussion - and I have learned some things on this thread already. So relax.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. If You Read The Thread That Appears To Be A Consensus (nt)

[rockydem]

56. that doesn't make it true though

I'm not a member of FR - I hate freepers. I find them repugnant. I'm a true-blue Democrat, and always will be.

[teach1st]

18. The fact finding trip (see photo above) did lead to this...

http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5011739.html

But while burnishing his liberal credentials, Kerry also surprised his allies in 1985 by signing on early to the Gramm-Rudman deficit-reduction package, which set limits on government borrowing, forcing Congress to either cut programs or raise taxes -- and which passed by wide bipartisan margins.

A year later, forging an unusual alliance with then-Sen. Jesse Helms, R-N.C., Kerry helped persuade the Foreign Relations Committee to investigate the contras and their alleged drug connections in Central America. The probe eventually exposed the Iran-contra scandal, the Reagan administration's secret scheme to trade arms for hostages held by pro-Iranian terrorists in Lebanon and use the proceeds to fund the contras. One of the scheme's main protagonists, Oliver North, would make a national name for himself in the unfolding scandal. So would Kerry.

Later, taking charge of a Senate panel on terrorism, narcotics and international operations, Kerry would launch inquiries into alleged drug trafficking by Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega and alleged banking irregularities by the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, which had strong insider ties to some powerful Washington Democrats, including former Defense Secretary Clark Clifford.

[rockydem]

30. the BCCI investigation - now that was one of Kerry's best moments

ever read the report his investigation produced? fascinating stuff...

[teach1st]

47. One of Kerry's finest moments is coming up...

..on November 2nd.

[FrankenforMN]

22. I am very suspicious as to why you would post this here...

In the GD: Campaign 2004 forum. How does this relate to the election. My opinion: You're a freeper bye-bye

[Czolgosz]

23. Why would you not meet with a democratically elected politician

in a country so close to the US which had (and has) numerous trade relations and treaties with the US? You are questioning someone for meeting with Ortega because Ortega had previously been to the Soviet Union, right? So how about all those world leaders photographed with Bush after Bush went to Russia to ask for their aid in the efforts against bin Laden? What would such a photograph with Bush tell you? Nothing. That's exactly what this photograph tells you (except that this does demonstrate that Kerry was meeting with world leaders back when Bush was a drunk failure in the oil business who'd already lost his first run for political office).

[PROGRESSIVE1]

24. What do you have wrong with democratically elected leaders?

[LTR]

27. It's not like like he was negotiating a pipeline deal with the Taliban

Like Dumbya did in the 90s.

Bin Laden was a wanted criminal at the time and living in Afghanistan. And the Taliban had a horrible human rights record.

Or, consider how buddy-buddy Bush is with the Saudi royalty, and count how many 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

[rockydem]

32. I agree - and there's this too

[0rganism]

29. Daniel Ortega was ELECTED in 1984, five years after overthrowing Samoza

Can you blame Ortega for seeking aid from the Soviets after what the USA did to Cuba? I sure can't.

> Was Ortega a bad guy? He was a communist dicator, no?

The question never asked: was Anastasio Samoza Debalye a "bad guy"?

[snowbear]

31. xray s

xrays: Ortega salsa? No way babeeeeeeee. Gotta make your own! With fresh cilantro!! ;)

[Name removed]

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[scarletwoman]

33. Oh geeeze, where to begin....

First of all, everything you've been told about Nicaragua through mainstream sources is a LIE.

Ortega was NOT a "bad guy". The Contras were right wing terrorists doing the bidding of the U.S. right wing corporate/military elite.

Learn the truth, here's a good place to start:

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html#Nicaragua

(excerpt)

When the Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza dictatorship in 1978, it was clear to Washington that they might well be that long-dreaded beast — “another Cuba.” Under President Carter, attempts to sabotage the revolution took diplomatic and economic forms. Under Reagan, violence was the method of choice. For eight terribly long years, the people of Nicaragua were under attack by Washington’s proxy army, the Contras, formed from Somoza’s vicious National Guard and other supporters of the dictator.

It was all-out war, aiming to destroy the progressive social and economic programs of the government, burning down schools and medical clinics, raping, torturing, mining harbors, bombing and strafing. These were Ronald Reagan’s “freedom fighters.” There would be no revolution in Nicaragua.

Kerry and Harkin were trying to do the decent thing, hoping to prevent Reagan's military intervention, but the Reagan/Bush thugs would have none of it. As for Ortega getting aid from the Soviets, who else did he have to turn to try to head off the U.S. terrorists?

sw

[rockydem]

40. from your link - even Carter was against them

"Under President Carter, attempts to sabotage the revolution took diplomatic and economic forms. "

[Name removed]

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[MADem]

50. Ah, so NOW you're a GD EXPERT!

Why didn't ya fire up GOOGLE before you posted? Would have saved you all those third degree burns!

Amateur!

[MrBenchley]

34. Says who?

So you don't know who the Contras were or what the issue was, but you want to tell us Ortega was "untrustworthy"?

Uh-huh....

[onecitizen]

36. Buh-bye

[RetroLounge]

37. WTF????

:wtf:

RL

[buddhamama]

41. Anastasio Somoza was a dictator.

He was ousted in 1979 by the Sandinistas, of which Daniel Ortega was a leading figure. Daniel Ortega went on to be democratically elected President, with much controversy. But how it is any different than here, i don't know.

The Communist excuse is old real old.

I am sorry but this in no way compares to Reagan declaring the Mujahadeen "The moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers" or

Reagan, Rumsfeld, etc., shaking hands with the evil-doer Saddam.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

42. Bullshit

You say you're 29? I'm 30 and I remember perfectly well being outraged that Shithead Ronald Reagan was paying for death squads, murdering nuns and babies as they tried to overthrow Nicaragua's rightful leader.

So good of you to bluff through "79 posts" before dropping this rotten egg.

[jmowreader]

43. Daniel Ortega was a Spanish-speaking Saddam

I don't know if he was quite as evil as Saddam, but Ortega displayed a duality similar to Saddam. Carl Jung would have had a field day with the two of them.

In the 1970s, there was a dictator named Anastosio Somoza running Nicaragua. The Sandinistas formed up to depose him, and at that time the United States thought Daniel Ortega was a stand-up guy to get rid of him. (This was probably when Kerry and Harkin went down there.)

After Somoza was gone, the US kinda left Ortega swinging in the breeze (probably foreign aid disputes; on this I'm not sure) so Ortega went to Moscow for his aid.

It isn't any worse than what some members of the current administration did for Saddam.

[LynnTheDem]

44. NOT one of bushCartel's proudest moments...

Or IraqGate.

Or IranContra.

Or failed invasion/occupation of Afghanistan.

Or failed invasion/occupation of Iraq.

Or failed US economy.

Or failed US jobs.

Or failed US medicare.

etc.

[troubleinwinter]

48. WTF?!!!?

:hurts:

[MADem]

49. My educated guess, to disappoint the Freeper

...has always been that Kerry has had some relationship with the See Eye Eh over the years. You do know that a shitload of them came from Skull and Bones, it's like ROTC for those guys. That's where Big George got his start. Weewee was an exception, he was too stupid for the agency to use, legacy or no. But I suspect JFK was an asset as far back as the Nam, in one fashion or another, and continued to do his thing as the years went by.

It's all good, though. He's no Andropov, but he has an understanding of that fucked up outfit on at least an operational level, the freepers are so desperate they are going after stupid shit to try to dampen down enthusiam (Rove strategy--SUPPRESS THE VOTE--sorry, we won't be letting that happen), and a LANDSLIDE will bring JFK to the White House. All good.

[NMDemDist2]

55. here's some background

snip---Kerry said he was not naive about the Sandinistas' repressive behavior. A Kerry adviser on the trip recalled that Kerry was "disgusted" by the foreign minister's lavish home, which had been confiscated, even while purportedly leading a "people's revolution" in the poverty-plagued country.

Nevertheless, Kerry told his Senate colleagues on Tuesday, the same day as the House vote on a $14 million contra aid package, that it was time to end "the bloodshed, the suffering, the terrorism."

"I am willing . . . to take the risk in the effort to put to test the good faith of the Sandinistas," he said.

That day, the Sandinistas collected an important victory when the House rejected Reagan's request for aid to their enemy, the contras.

A day later, Daniel Ortega, who had promised to force Soviet and Cuban advisers out of his country if aid to the contras ended, boarded an Aeroflot jet for Moscow to collect a $200 million loan.

Reagan's speechwriters couldn't have scripted a better I-told-you-so ending.

Ortega's trip to Moscow "embarrassed us, to be perfectly truthful," Kerry's powerful Massachusetts colleague, House Speaker Thomas P. O'Neill, said at the time. (But Connecticut Senator Christopher J. Dodd wondered aloud why his Democratic colleagues were so stunned: "Where did my colleagues think he was going to go, Disney World?" he said. "The man is a Marxist.")
Kerry issued his own response to the Ortega trip. "I'm as mad as anyone that is in the Soviet Union," he said. "But the fact is, if we're not willing to talk, the question has to be asked, 'Where else is he going to turn for help?' "

Ortega's Moscow trip also produced an opening for the White House to renew its crusade for aid to the contras. Six weeks later, the Democratic-led House dramatically reversed itself and approved $27 million in nonmilitary funding for the contras. The Senate also approved aid.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2004/04/25/restless_intellect_drives_kerrys_positions?pg=6

[DemExpat]

59. Locking

too many flames.